I know I've caught flack on here for saying this, but the apartments still have a high vacancy rate relative to downtown. Any Trulia search will always show 5-10 units available at any particular time which, for downtown, is not usual

 

Listings don't = vacant units. If someone isn't able to renew their lease for whatever reason that unit will be listed. Doesn't mean it is sitting empty, it means the next rent cycle for it will need to switch from one renter to a new renter. That's hardly a sign of a problem. The only possible way to not have this would be if 100% of your renters never left which isn't realistic. Unless someone can show that these have always been vacant this isn't a sign of anything other than turnover.

 

When you are down there at night many of them appear to be empty, but that seems hard to believe considering the demand for downtown, but I guess it could be the price point.     

^You guys are ridiculous.

I was down in the flats this past Saturday and the place was complete GRIDLOCKED. Stop and go traffic, horns blasting, parking lots were SLAMMED. The sidewalks were packed as well. Margaritaville had to lock their doors because they were filled to capacity. It got me to thinking about Phase 3. MY thoughts were, if they were to build on that parking lot across from the apartments then something dramatic needs to change on the end of RTA with the Waterfront line or the City when it comes to these no parking police orders. That crowd was so gridlocked that only a fool would think that the waterfront line would not be jam packed. When it comes to the police orders that say no parking from Friday-Saturday 8PM-4AM at perfectly good meters can anyone explain to me why those are there? There was a ton of parking that had to be passed up on because of this nonsense, aiding in the craziness. Also having more restaurants or establishments down there that didn't close at 11 or 12 on a SATURDAY NIGHT IN THE SUMMER would be great for the neighborhood. Me and my fiancé had to leave because we couldn't get in anywhere before the place closed.

 

Finish the Waterfront Line and justify more service. Discuss here:

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,17056.0.html

But how can you tell? My building looks empty at night when I get home from bars but I know all 72 units are filled in it. There's no good metric to base that analysis. Number of lights on could just show how social the clientele is in a specific building. Or how environmentally conscious they are. More lights could mean more timed switches. Less lights could mean early sleepers. It doesn't show you anything truly meaningful in terms of occupancy rates.

 

Not saying this building is successful since I have no idea. But in all these discussions there haven't been any actual numbers provided by reliable sources to back up the claims.  I'm legitimately curious how it's doing since it will tell a lot about future phases down there but so far nothing usable has been provided.

Some of them may also be rented by corporations to provide extended-stay housing for visiting clients, consultants and others. So they may not have anyone in them for weeks a time but they are definitely off-market.

Some of them may also be rented by corporations to provide extended-stay housing for visiting clients, consultants and others. So they may not have anyone in them for weeks a time but they are definitely off-market.

 

This is probably a very accurate assumption--especially with that Ernst-Young tower there.  I had a cousin who worked for them and she used to go on extended out-of-town trips for audits.  Apparently they like to mix up the audits with outsiders to make extra sure nothing is missed.

My parents were down in the Flats a few weeks ago and said everything was slammed, especially Margaritaville. It almost reminded them of how it was back in the 80s - almost.

 

I've seen it with my own eyes:

Every weekend night, the places are all packed to the brim. The lines at FWD make it at least halfway down the path towards the roundabout and Punch Bowl Social is as popular as I've ever seen a place. The gyro cart usually has a line that starts as early as 11ish and only gets longer (and slower) as the night progresses. Even East End seems to have plenty of support.

 

The ones that seem a bit more disconnected are the restaurants at the aloft and Flipside, but even they appear to have decent crowds.

 

Personally, Coastal Taco and Beerhead are the ones that surprise me the most in their success. They get very good crowds to the point that even on Sundays for lunch they seem to do very well.

On retail: it is dying. Completely being replaced by online shopping.

 

An alternative is to emulate what the 5th Street Arcade or 78th Street Studios has done. Aim for artist galleries and or locally made arts and craft or small local retailers (like Fount).

 

Another option is "fast food" places that attract daytime crowds. I'm not talking Subway or McDonald's, I'm thinking Food Halls like the ones in Chicago, DC and Cleveland. Basically, romanticized Food Courts. Though I believe the May Company building is a much better candidate for that kind of offering.

 

http://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/the-5-best-food-halls-in-america

 

The movie theater seems like a must and a comedy club or other type of live performance venue would be a huge plus. Maybe a Pickwick and Frolic Part Deux?

I was going to make more comments about retail stores not completely dying off for people my age and older, but I know that UO loves to use a bad retail discussion to take a thread off topic. So I'll leave it there. :)

^^ coastal taco benefits from flat out great design. It's also a very good spot to watch Browns games. I've researched this.

 

I'm not sold on the movie theatre idea for Flats 3.0. I'd much rather see Tower City theaters get that TLC. And for better connectivity between TC and FEB....something like a boardwalk would do :-)

I think there's a bit of a disconnect between the type of apartments there and the environment.  Lots of people live in the warehouse district but they are generally young and the luxury price point of FEB is a little too high.  The older crowd seems a little less interested in someplace so entertainment focused and loud/crowded. 

 

I'd think about building lots of studios and smaller units in phase three to cater to the very young professional-type crowd. 

While big box, department store type retail is being decimated by the dot-coms, small-scale, locally themed stores, esp with a Cleveland theme, are making it various places around town, even downtown (NOTE: CLE Clothing on E. 4th, always busy, and now at UC-Uptown), and would be very attractive for FEB Phase 3.  Recently-opened Margaritaville has the only retail I'm aware of on the East Bank (or perhaps anywhere in the Flats), with their Mararitaville-themed T-shirts, coffee cups, ashtrays and the like.  It was very busy, like the restaurant, when we visited over the July 4th opening weekend -- I would be more motivated grab, say, a T-Shirt if it was Cleveland-themed -- still may grab something there anyway since there stuff is eye-catching.

^^ coastal taco benefits from flat out great design. It's also a very good spot to watch Browns games. I've researched this.

 

I'm not sold on the movie theatre idea for Flats 3.0. I'd much rather see Tower City theaters get that TLC. And for better connectivity between TC and FEB....something like a boardwalk would do :-)

 

I second your admiration for Coastal Taco.  From its beautiful wicker-ish, interior (including a fireplace), to its generous, well-positioned deck on the river, whoever designed the CT got it totally right.  Even the outdoor game area adds to the place with the beach-style giant chess board (and pieces), ping-pong and that game (can't recall the name) where players pull out sticks from under the pile without making it collapse.  It's both attractive and fun, and those elements are drawing in customers like a magnet.  Even during warm weather slack hours, the place is always packed.

^^ coastal taco benefits from flat out great design. It's also a very good spot to watch Browns games. I've researched this.

 

I'm not sold on the movie theatre idea for Flats 3.0. I'd much rather see Tower City theaters get that TLC. And for better connectivity between TC and FEB....something like a boardwalk would do :-)

 

I second your admiration for Coastal Taco.  From its beautiful wicker-ish, interior (including a fireplace), to its generous, well-positioned deck on the river, whoever designed the CT got it totally right.  Even the outdoor game area adds to the place with the beach-style giant chess board (and pieces), ping-pong and that game (can't recall the name) where players pull out sticks from under the pile without making it collapse.  It's both attractive and fun, and those elements are drawing in customers like a magnet.  Even during warm weather slack hours, the place is always packed.

 

The chess board was painted over a couple weeks ago and an expanded outdoor sitting area put in there (and around the entire side of the building along the roundabout). I was sad to see it go, but its definitely a sign of their success that they need to add more seating.

When it comes to the police orders that say no parking from Friday-Saturday 8PM-4AM at perfectly good meters can anyone explain to me why those are there? There was a ton of parking that had to be passed up on because of this nonsense, aiding in the craziness.

 

 

City of Cleveland Facebook noted today that the parking bans are to avoid obstructions to police, fire and medical vehicles and regular traffic flow.

 

From the Cleveland.com article: "In a notice Thursday reminding people of the ban, the city advises them to park in a paid lot or take public transportation to avoid parking problems." (emphasis mine)

 

Not a good look to encourage users to take public transportation when the rail line that goes right to this hotspot is shut down after 7PM.

When it comes to the police orders that say no parking from Friday-Saturday 8PM-4AM at perfectly good meters can anyone explain to me why those are there? There was a ton of parking that had to be passed up on because of this nonsense, aiding in the craziness.

 

 

City of Cleveland Facebook noted today that the parking bans are to avoid obstructions to police, fire and medical vehicles and regular traffic flow.

 

From the Cleveland.com article: "In a notice Thursday reminding people of the ban, the city advises them to park in a paid lot or take public transportation to avoid parking problems." (emphasis mine)

 

Not a good look to encourage users to take public transportation when the rail line that goes right to this hotspot is shut down after 7PM.

The ban is ridiculous, it seems like these parking companies got into their back pockets because basically all of the parking bans exist on the free meters. I was downtown in the flats again yesterday and the police just were over the top with the parking enforcements. I began thinking, even though Downtown is the hot place to go right now, especially the flats east bank, if the city doesn't get rid of these ridiculous bans they could see a steady decline. Although downtown is growing with residents, the suburban resident is still the largest visitor to the city. The area based on population is heavily suburban, and the suburbs offer a nice variety of late night hang out spots for residents. If they feel it's too much of a hassle visit downtown due to parking restrictions, you'll begin to see neighborhoods that are just gaining their footing like FEB begin to either steadily decline or become stagnant at best. If anything, if the city is going to control the parking the way they do the least they can do is work with RTA to help the WFL run late Friday and Saturday nights.

 

Side note: I TRIED to go to Margaritaville yesterday. I didn't get past ordering water, the place was a little too overpriced and WAY too obnoxious for my taste. Clearly a tourist attraction. That live music needs to go or their mics need to be dramatically lowered I shouldn't have to shout or lean in for the person in front of me to hear  me. Shame.

There is a TON of parking in the warehouse district....Its an easy walk down.  In reading the comments section on Cleveland.com...people were suggesting tearing down more old buildings in flats for parking.  RTA neeeds to get WFL operating till 2AM.  but most important.....Cleveland police need to spend less time towing and more time patrolling.  The walk back to parking lots late night are ridiculously unsafe.

Example....Left Billy Joel concert couple Fridays ago...parked by Bar Louie.  From East 4th to Public Square....asked for money or "directions" or "ride" 5 times.  Public Square at midnight has people sleeping on the stairs, and a grown man peeing on the sidewalk by the lawn.  Than we were followed to the parking lots by two gentleman who kept asking us to "wait up".  Not a cop in sight.  Parking isnt the issue...but feeling safe is

There is a TON of parking in the warehouse district....Its an easy walk down.  In reading the comments section on Cleveland.com...people were suggesting tearing down more old buildings in flats for parking.  RTA neeeds to get WFL operating till 2AM.  but most important.....Cleveland police need to spend less time towing and more time patrolling.  The walk back to parking lots late night are ridiculously unsafe.

Example....Left Billy Joel concert couple Fridays ago...parked by Bar Louie.  From East 4th to Public Square....asked for money or "directions" or "ride" 5 times.  Public Square at midnight has people sleeping on the stairs, and a grown man peeing on the sidewalk by the lawn.  Than we were followed to the parking lots by two gentleman who kept asking us to "wait up".  Not a cop in sight.  Parking isnt the issue...but feeling safe is

 

I shared the above story in the Cleveland crime & safety thread:

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,4065.msg866894.html#msg866894

 

Side note: I TRIED to go to Margaritaville yesterday. I didn't get past ordering water, the place was a little too overpriced and WAY too obnoxious for my taste. Clearly a tourist attraction. That live music needs to go or their mics need to be dramatically lowered I shouldn't have to shout or lean in for the person in front of me to hear  me. Shame.

 

WHAT A BUNCH OF SQUARES. SQUARESVILLE, I TELL YA

There is a TON of parking in the warehouse district....Its an easy walk down.  In reading the comments section on Cleveland.com...people were suggesting tearing down more old buildings in flats for parking.  RTA neeeds to get WFL operating till 2AM.  but most important.....Cleveland police need to spend less time towing and more time patrolling.  The walk back to parking lots late night are ridiculously unsafe.

Example....Left Billy Joel concert couple Fridays ago...parked by Bar Louie.  From East 4th to Public Square....asked for money or "directions" or "ride" 5 times.  Public Square at midnight has people sleeping on the stairs, and a grown man peeing on the sidewalk by the lawn.  Than we were followed to the parking lots by two gentleman who kept asking us to "wait up".  Not a cop in sight.  Parking isnt the issue...but feeling safe is

 

I'm definitely an advocate of expanding use of the WFL to 2a weekends -- having it stop at 7p and having people rely on Trolley's (free little buses) won't cut it)...

 

But zealous ticketing and towing by the cops is a sure-fire way to turn people off and really hurt FEB.  As McLovin correctly notes, a large chunk of Flats patronage is from the suburbs, and they simply won't put up that crap--they'll migrate to other lively City neighborhoods or stay in the burbs.  New downtown City Councilman Kerry McCormack (who, at 28, is contemporary with a lot of Flats revelers) and Mayor Jackson need to get ahead of this lest they come off as tone deaf.

I know there's about ten million TIFs that were created when Flats East Bank was planned. But some of those have to be coming off the books soon, right? If so, why not start a new TIF, this one for parking only, and use the revenues to support late-night weekend-only Waterfront line service?

Or another great opportunity to extend the hours of the water taxi. It seems people are starting to understand its alot easier to park on the West Bank and walk over there too. I took it across to FEB around 4pm and there were long lines on both sides waiting to get on. Lines extending well outside the designated queues with people having to wait multiple taxi trips before they could get on. Less parking on the East Bank will really make the West more attractive.

There are Uber-like apps for boats cropping up in places.  Opportunity knocks.

Went down to FEB last night... on the whole, I still love it; however...

 

1. The traffic situation - even with reduced parking - was COMPLETELY out of control. I walked back to Stonebridge and had to wait 15 minutes outside for my friend who took a lyft from Beerhead.

 

2. There might be a need for greater security. We were sitting on the patio at Beerhead and out of nowhere, a group of 10-12 people walk up and take out camera equipment. Then I spot a woman in lingerie dancing while being filmed in between Beerhead and Coastal Taco for what appeared to be a rap video. Midway through, a group of 12-15 motor cycles rolled through, also as part of the video. This attracted quite a crowd, a portion of whom began fighting with each other and, at one point, led to a group turning and sprinting from the situation, which caused a small panic.

 

I don't want to sound like an old fogey, but I don't think allowing freelance music videos in the middle of walking paths is a great way to encourage people to barhop

There is a TON of parking in the warehouse district....Its an easy walk down.  In reading the comments section on Cleveland.com...people were suggesting tearing down more old buildings in flats for parking.  RTA neeeds to get WFL operating till 2AM.  but most important.....Cleveland police need to spend less time towing and more time patrolling.  The walk back to parking lots late night are ridiculously unsafe.

Example....Left Billy Joel concert couple Fridays ago...parked by Bar Louie.  From East 4th to Public Square....asked for money or "directions" or "ride" 5 times.  Public Square at midnight has people sleeping on the stairs, and a grown man peeing on the sidewalk by the lawn.  Than we were followed to the parking lots by two gentleman who kept asking us to "wait up".  Not a cop in sight.  Parking isnt the issue...but feeling safe is

I know about those parking lots. Two issues I have. Number one is I don't trust those lots, they don't have an attendant but have pricing out I never see a parking machine to pay at either (at least at the lots I've seen) so I don't trust leaving my car there, risking a tow. Number 2 is due to that parking ban, those lots during the times I've been there are now packed to the brim so there's that. I don't see the issue, all these years the free meters were okay to park at but now it's an issue? Would I be far fetched in assuming that the parking companies got into the police departments ear or back pocket? I just find it odd that all of a sudden ALL of the free meters are now illegal to stop or park at.

 

Piggybacking off of clvlndr, maybe a 515 style parking garage that hold a lot more spaces than the existing lot would be useful for the FEB. I'd put it right on the existing lot between the aloft and the apartments, put retail spaces down there to still allow active and leave it open at the top for future development to be done. It's a win win, more parking while still adding to the buzzing area. I honestly don't know why more parking garages like 515 haven't popped up around the city, it's honestly strange. Also, tearing down more buildings for parking would be disastrous to the character and feel of the FEB. A lot of historical buildings have already been torn down we need to preserve as much character and history as we can.

 

Every time there is an issue with parking, I always jokingly tell my fiancé "this is why I am a supporter of public transportation". If I could simply take the WFL I would. The placement directly in the neighborhood is too good to pass up and would relieve the frustration about parking or potentially sitting in traffic. Unfortunately with time ticking on summer it seems as if RTA and/or the city won't capitalize on a prime opportunity to showcase the convenience of the WFL, shame.

Went down to FEB last night... on the whole, I still love it; however...

 

1. The traffic situation - even with reduced parking - was COMPLETELY out of control. I walked back to Stonebridge and had to wait 15 minutes outside for my friend who took a lyft from Beerhead.

 

2. There might be a need for greater security. We were sitting on the patio at Beerhead and out of nowhere, a group of 10-12 people walk up and take out camera equipment. Then I spot a woman in lingerie dancing while being filmed in between Beerhead and Coastal Taco for what appeared to be a rap video. Midway through, a group of 12-15 motor cycles rolled through, also as part of the video. This attracted quite a crowd, a portion of whom began fighting with each other and, at one point, led to a group turning and sprinting from the situation, which caused a small panic.

 

I don't want to sound like an old fogey, but I don't think allowing freelance music videos in the middle of walking paths is a great way to encourage people to barhop

Exactly!  I'm down in FEB a lot......Those bikers have been rolling thru all summer.  Last few weeks its gotten worse...4 wheelers are coming down also.  And cops do NOTHING.  Pay attn City of Cleveland.  People want to feel safe

Went down to FEB last night... on the whole, I still love it; however...

 

1. The traffic situation - even with reduced parking - was COMPLETELY out of control. I walked back to Stonebridge and had to wait 15 minutes outside for my friend who took a lyft from Beerhead.

 

2. There might be a need for greater security. We were sitting on the patio at Beerhead and out of nowhere, a group of 10-12 people walk up and take out camera equipment. Then I spot a woman in lingerie dancing while being filmed in between Beerhead and Coastal Taco for what appeared to be a rap video. Midway through, a group of 12-15 motor cycles rolled through, also as part of the video. This attracted quite a crowd, a portion of whom began fighting with each other and, at one point, led to a group turning and sprinting from the situation, which caused a small panic.

 

I don't want to sound like an old fogey, but I don't think allowing freelance music videos in the middle of walking paths is a great way to encourage people to barhop

 

That's an understatement, especially when the perception is that a lot of hip hop production companies have gang ties.

 

The fact that that perception is largely true is actually irrelevant.  It's the perception that counts in case like this.

Wasn't a SID being considered for the area to help with localized costs such as clean up and extra security?

^to be perfectly candid, my girlfriend had told me I'm late June she was followed by a group of 5-6 men who wouldn't stop following her along the river (to where the fountain is across from Nautica) until she was on the phone with 9-1-1.

 

I know these stories are usually overblown, but she's a particularly thick-skinned person. The fact that she even had to call really told me she might've been in trouble.

 

EastEnd lost much of its management team over the winter and has since taken a turn for the worst. Otherwise phenomenal location, though

Wasn't a SID being considered for the area to help with localized costs such as clean up and extra security?

 

Getting competing bar owners to work together can be like herding cats, especially when one or more believe "that place"'s customers are the bulk of the problem and double especially when they are somewhat correct.  Buildings and licenses being owned separately can compound the problem too.

 

Perception works both ways.  Between the general no-chase policy and the specific one regarding dirt bikes, the criminal element may be perceiving the city to be weak on street crime, and be getting bolder.  It seems that way, and FEB and the near west side are where that will become the most visible quickly. 

 

I hope this is not late 90s/early 2000s history repeating itself.

I was just going to say... The East Bank of the Flats died once before. Let's not do it again please.

Wasn't a SID being considered for the area to help with localized costs such as clean up and extra security?

 

Yes, and city council approved it in February 2015, but Mayor Jackson vetoed it.

Why?

Why?

 

The district would have been funded by an additional sales tax at all the restaurants at FEB, and apparently the mayor didn't want to raise taxes, so he vetoed it. The developers never got a clear answer from City Hall about it and were kind of dumbfounded

Why?

 

The district would have been funded by an additional sales tax at all the restaurants at FEB, and apparently the mayor didn't want to raise taxes, so he vetoed it. The developers never got a clear answer from City Hall about it and were kind of dumbfounded

 

Why couldn't all the businesses just band together and say, we're all going to add a 1% "fee" to our checks to pay for this?

Because someone wouldn't, but they would get all the benefits.  Then everyone would decide they shouldn't have to pay, either.  Then there would be no SID.

^ no, you get some, but not all the benefits. you get things like cleanup, events activities and neighborhood improvements and the like, but if you dont sign on as a member of a non-profit neighborhood business and property owner bid you get no say in what they do. how much they can do depends upon how much interest there is in the bid. sometimes they lag or fade away, but also sometimes they grow, even temporarily, like if they want to do a big project like rebuild a plaza or fund an event or something.

Utterly utterly utterly blown away by the Flats today. Holy shit there is a beach bar too?

 

All it needs is a coffee shop and cigar shop.

Utterly utterly utterly blown away by the Flats today. Holy S**t there is a beach bar too?

 

All it needs is a coffee shop and cigar shop.

 

I think FEB is having an arts festival today... It's really hot now; crowded every weekend.  The next step is to get some retail down there.

Take pics so can be utterly blown away.....please

Picture 1

Pic 2

Arggg... phone is being difficult

Well guys, getting a bit disheartened. Another GREAT experience at FEB, bar hopping with friends from out of town. However, towards the end of the night, the area got seedy to say the least. There was a fight between two women in front of Punch Bowl Social which no one broke up. And our walk back to the Perry Payne Building was marred with several aggressive cat calls at the women in our group from people in front of the East Bank Bar.

 

The need for extra security is apparent. We have a great atmosphere going on down there, and we can't let a**holes ruin it.

At Ale Fest yesterday, we were talking with a guy who said he lives in the new apartment building. I asked him about talk of there being alot of empty units there. He said there are some right now, but they seem to just be part of the normal flow of people moving in and out.

Not sure security is going to deter drunk idiots doing cat calls. Maybe we just need less d bags patronizing our establishments

26 vacancies as of 8/22/17, so 215/241= 89% occupancy

Not sure security is going to deter drunk idiots doing cat calls. Maybe we just need less d bags patronizing our establishments

 

Don't think they were drunk, to be completely honest. I think they were loitering rather than patronizing a bar

26 vacancies as of 8/22/17, so 215/241= 89% occupancy

 

Is that 26 truly empty units, or 26 listed as available? Because, as many including myself have pointed out before, those two things are not synonymous.

26 vacancies as of 8/22/17, so 215/241= 89% occupancy

 

Welcome metz44!