32 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

People use quality transit when it's funded and available. We have neither. Our built reality is what we make it. 

Ignoring that reality doesn’t make it go away. The point I’m trying to make. Until/if we ever get to that point, we need to accommodate the average northeast Ohioan if we want a project like this to be successful/sustainable. 

Never met an average northeast Ohioan.

2 minutes ago, KJP said:

Never met an average northeast Ohioan.

They hang out at Margaritaville ?

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

People use quality transit when it's funded and available. We have neither. Our built reality is what we make it. 

 

I have Pittsburgh's T in mind when stating this, but since the trains end earlier than the bars close, it seems the Wolstein's and the other bar owners could convince (IE pay) RTA to run down there later, and/or for free. 

 

The T (Pittsburgh's Train), runs from the football stadium through downtown for free in part because the Steelers and Alco Parking (they own the lots on the North Shore) contribute/pay Pittsburgh's Port Authority to do this. 

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

They hang out at Margaritaville ?

 

1 hour ago, marty15 said:

They hang out at Margaritaville ?

If that is the case then I say just bulldozer the whole development.

3 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

 

If that is the case then I say just bulldozer the whole development.

Have you guys noticed some monumental societal shift amongst the local population recently that I missed?  

Some what confused by the reporting in Cleveland.com in connection with today's design review of the restaurant  buildings (apparently they loved the new design).

 

Wolstein apparently stated that he was looking for some financing from the city (just for the restaurant portion but not sure) and would be working on that in the "coming months".  He also said he was monitoring the mixed use legislation pending in Columbus and said he "could not" move forward until there was clarification (and we all know how slow that has been moving).

But then he said he hopes to break ground on both the restaurants along the river and the apartments on the parking lot this summer (if I recall KJP recently opined that the apartments would not happen until next year).

 

In my mind the first two statements do not jive with a summer groundbreaking.  I don't know if it is just poor reporting or Wolstein was just babbling on and not articulating the situation very well.

The source who told me about the apartment building groundbreaking occurring after the restaurants are done next year has had his bad moments sometimes. 

Flats East Bank project moving forward with design approval of riverfront restaurants, bars

CLEVELAND, Ohio – A proposal for new riverfront restaurants and bars in the Flats will head to City Planning Commission on Friday after winning final approval, and praise, from a city design-review committee Thursday.

The latest phase of the Flats East Bank development will add two buildings with four different restaurant, bar and nightclub concepts on a chunk of land abutting the Cuyahoga River. The development site sits between Alley Cat Oyster Bar and FWD Day and Nightclub.

After a design-review committee sent the proposal back to the drawing board last month, HSB Architects returned with a plan that earned a commendation from the committee for the design evolution and how it matches the Flats’ aesthetic. The reworked design features corrugated metal facades in three hues.

https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/05/flats-east-bank-project-moving-forward-with-design-approval-of-riverfront-restaurants-bars.html

 

Not sure where I stand on him picking this over condos though. Unless the entire condominium would have included no retail. Then this is the better move.

Design Approval.https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019/05/flats-east-bank-project-moving-forward-with-design-approval-of-riverfront-restaurants-bars.html?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=clevelanddotcom_sf&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR1I_Pxwmz9XYNFxiz6o1v-hUs8e4HPs18FGDZUHEFjiMm2NAIleikJwJjo

20 hours ago, GISguy said:

 

I have Pittsburgh's T in mind when stating this, but since the trains end earlier than the bars close, it seems the Wolstein's and the other bar owners could convince (IE pay) RTA to run down there later, and/or for free. 

 

The T (Pittsburgh's Train), runs from the football stadium through downtown for free in part because the Steelers and Alco Parking (they own the lots on the North Shore) contribute/pay Pittsburgh's Port Authority to do this. 

Can we run our WFL trains to/from the muny lots to Public Square only? Til 2 on Friday/Saturday nights in season only?

Edited May 3, 20196 yr by PittsburgoDelendaEst

45 minutes ago, PittsburgoDelendaEst said:

Can we run our WFL trains to/from the muny lots to Public Square only? Til 2 on Friday/Saturday nights in season only?

Why? So people can get their Ubers and Lyfts at Public Square instead of wherever they spent their evening? A late night system needs more than 4-5 stops to even have a chance. 

 

I've seen too many people who walked down to the flats on a weekend after an indians game or a concert and give up on RTA once they realized it would take an 45 minutes to an hour to ride  to Lakewood or University Circle. (This isn't even late night! I just checked for 945 on saturday and UC is 40 min and lakewood is 56 min from the flats.) Ridesharing apps estimate 20 minutes. 

9 minutes ago, originaljbw said:

Why? So people can get their Ubers and Lyfts at Public Square instead of wherever they spent their evening? A late night system needs more than 4-5 stops to even have a chance. 

 

I've seen too many people who walked down to the flats on a weekend after an indians game or a concert and give up on RTA once they realized it would take an 45 minutes to an hour to ride  to Lakewood or University Circle. (This isn't even late night! I just checked for 945 on saturday and UC is 40 min and lakewood is 56 min from the flats.) Ridesharing apps estimate 20 minutes. 

 

Seeing as a large complaint has to deal with traffic flow, parking (*sigh*) and getting Ubers out of the Flats, I'd say a dedicated late night loop between TC and the Muni lots isn't a terrible idea to start and build from there.

 

And frankly, public transit is always going to be slower than a rideshare until it's prioritized here, and (a conversation for another forum) stigmas with the bus are thrown out the window.

23 minutes ago, originaljbw said:

Why? So people can get their Ubers and Lyfts at Public Square instead of wherever they spent their evening? A late night system needs more than 4-5 stops to even have a chance. 

 

I've seen too many people who walked down to the flats on a weekend after an indians game or a concert and give up on RTA once they realized it would take an 45 minutes to an hour to ride  to Lakewood or University Circle. (This isn't even late night! I just checked for 945 on saturday and UC is 40 min and lakewood is 56 min from the flats.) Ridesharing apps estimate 20 minutes. 

Why? Because Ubers/Lyfts, and free trolleys, ride on the surface streets, which during peak times in the flats are prone to gridlock even without the site completely built out. 

 

Think of the cars that could be taken off the streets and out of downtown lots if drivers coming in for an evening of entertainment were encouraged to park in the city-owned lots, and given an RTA pass for the night. That's not just Flats parking, which is at a premium but every lot in the city which loses value if we actually use the infrastructure we built and encourage its use. If I'm going to an sporting event at Gateway, a show at Playhouse Square, etc, and I can pay, say, $10 to park in a lot directly off the highway and ride into downtown for free? This opens up every Flats establishment as an option for after-event patrons who wouldn't dream of trying to get down there in a car. W. 25th is also viable. 

 

This is not an exercise in making things harder for drivers. We need to crawl before we can walk. And part of crawling has to include changing the mindset. "RTA: Yes, the train goes somewhere!" 

I live in Shaker directly on the Blue Line, and go to the FEB fairly often. I'm sure my issue with the Waterfront Line is not unique. The biggest problem to me is that the Blue Line trains do not continue onto it. It's only the Green Line trains. While taking the rapid downtown is quicker than driving, waiting potentially another half hour to transfer onto a Green Line/Waterfront Line train in Tower City is just unthinkable. I get off in Tower City and walk the rest of the way. I just don't understand why the Blue Line, which carries more riders and goes through a much denser area of town, is not the line to continue on through Tower City. I will never take the Waterfront Line until either Blue Line trains continue on to it, or trains are more common than once every 30mins in the evenings/weekends.

Given how heavily used the Blue Line is, I wonder how much potential ridership is lost because the Blue Line doesn't continue to the Flats and the Waterfront. Why they chose only the Green Line is beyond me. Even the simple fact that the color blue is associated with water should have been a no-brainer in having the Blue Line be the Waterfront Line.

Edited May 3, 20196 yr by RoabeArt

40 minutes ago, RoabeArt said:

Given how heavily used the Blue Line is, I wonder how much potential ridership is lost because the Blue Line doesn't continue to the Flats and the Waterfront. Why they chose only the Green Line is beyond me. Even the simple fact that the color blue is associated with water should have been a no-brainer in having the Blue Line be the Waterfront Line.

 

Except when the lake turns green in late summer. ?

I like the tweaks to the Kenect design, and I really like the look of the new restaurant buildings--it adds some much needed diversity to the architecture in the area. I think the design could use some tweaking though, and the materials used should be more high-quality.

The blue line does continue through the flats

Both do actually

When is that? Every time I've ever been on the Blue Line they announce Tower City as the final stop. If it's during rush hours, that's good for people who live in Shaker and work in the East Bank, but they certainly do not continue on in the evenings or on weekends for people who want to enjoy the amenities there. Those are the times it should definitely continue on, to get people out of their cars an alleviate the gridlock.

Looking at the blue and green line schedule may be a good place to start

5 minutes ago, w28th said:

Looking at the blue and green line schedule may be a good place to start

 

Always so pleasant W28.  A simple, friendly answer to Posh Steve's question would have been so much nicer--and not much effort. 

42 minutes ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

Always so pleasant W28.  A simple, friendly answer to Posh Steve's question would have been so much nicer--and not much effort. 

 

Architects.... ?

1 hour ago, w28th said:

Looking at the blue and green line schedule may be a good place to start

 AKA: Not in the evenings, and not on the weekends. Please refer to my last post.

On 5/1/2019 at 8:50 PM, marty15 said:

I don’t see any further entertainment development as sustainable. There’s seriously nowhere to park anywhere down there already. A garage along the tracks, or in the RTA loop would be ideal.  We’re not a public transit centric city.  At least Stark puts up a garage for every building he puts up at Crocker. I park on W. 9th and walk down now. But even that’s limited on the weekends. 

 

Nobody wants to go there anymore because it’s too crowded.

 

??

This development is struggling still.  The rents aren't where they need to be to support the new construction.  The office tower is holding steady but the rest of the development is barely treading water.  They just let the property manager go a few weeks ago 

Is this a sign of a struggling downtown market or something just limited to this development area?

FEB is still a bit of an outpost. If you have to get into your car to get almost every basic need, then you're not getting a downtown experience. Constantino's is the only store within an easy walk and only then it's a limited grocery store.

 

As has been the chicken-and-egg case for the rest of downtown for years, it takes more critical mass of people to attract more basic services. But the basic services won't come without the critical mass. 

 

So I see FEB trying to improve the economics of the 12-story apartment building by including co-working space for tenants, the Airbnb service/ profit-sharing, and micro-units. The latter truly depends on turning FEB into more of a year-round living room for residents.

8 hours ago, seicer said:

Is this a sign of a struggling downtown market or something just limited to this development area?

 

Hard to say.  But it's 2019 and this development has been here now for over 6 years.  The office tower opened exactly 6 years ago in May.   By most projections, I'd have to think owners saw this development being farther along with more office, apartments, and supporting uses

I was just down in the Flats over the weekend and it just seems poorly connected at the moment.  Every time I visit I just think if they'd only fill in that center parking lot with a properly scaled apartment building the area be massively improved.

 

I'm also constantly frustrated by the ridiculous street parking bans on Friday and Saturday nights.  That's one easy way to dissuade people from visiting the area.

My impression is that Wolstein et al are plugging away.  Not crazy about the fact that they continue to be so reliant on public subsidies but that seems to be a drug most developers in town are addicted to (and perhaps for good reason...the numbers probably don't pan out without them).

 

My bigger concern/frustration is that Flats East Bank has not resulted in any significant spillover development down River Road and up on West Ninth.  I thought that would happen easily after the development was up and running.

There are too many good if not better alternatives to FEB 9 months of the year. Parking is obviously an issue, I would think for employees and customers. Water taxi service will help out, but the best thing they could do is get the gondola system going or build out the WFL.   

2 hours ago, Hootenany said:

I was just down in the Flats over the weekend and it just seems poorly connected at the moment.  Every time I visit I just think if they'd only fill in that center parking lot with a properly scaled apartment building the area be massively improved.

 

I'm also constantly frustrated by the ridiculous street parking bans on Friday and Saturday nights.  That's one easy way to dissuade people from visiting the area.

 

That parking lot will be filled with apartment building soon enough.  I think they may start construction this summer.  Adding a couple hundred more units will certainly help the other restaurants but I don't think I'm alone in saying they could use a few more "non-entertainment" uses.  Like a small grocery/grab & go, maybe a home furnishings place and maybe some type of basic apparel store like The Gap or whatever

 

As for the comment from Htsguy about spillover development, every developer in town and several from out of town have approached the owners of the Samsel building about buying for redevelopment.  So far, no dice.  Having that building redeveloped would be a major piece of the puzzle.  Other things are happening along that street - Collision Bend Brewery is a nice addition for example...  not having a contiguous board walk along the river is a problem. 

21 minutes ago, gottaplan said:

not having a contiguous board walk along the river is a problem. 

 

Right. Done the right way the boardwalk should encourage and allow visitors to park away from the chaos and walk to FEB. 

37 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

Right. Done the right way the boardwalk should encourage and allow visitors to park away from the chaos and walk to FEB. 

absolutely.  And enjoy the sights of the river a long the way and duck in & out of the storefronts along the way as well.  

 

Adding a board walk back in along the existing facades would be a costly venture.  I wonder if a single entity could handle the design/engineering and the cost could be allocated to each property owner...   

3 hours ago, Hootenany said:

That's one easy way to dissuade people from visiting the area.

Or have the water taxi close early because metroparks fears it will become a booze cruize. 

 

Or have zero rapid service when people would be finishing up and leaving. 

 

As long as the flats remain 99.97% bars/restaurants/nightclubs, they are going to rely on Friday and Saturday nights to pay the bills.

 

As I understand it the reasoning behind the parking bans was to improve traffic flow, but most of the problems are caused by idiots at the bottom and top of west st clair all trying to make left turns. When I used to work down there you could watch traffic flow fairly well, then one car trying to turn left onto w9th back up cars all the way down the hill and nearly to collision bend. Add to that one car that is coming south on w10th/lockwood that wants to turn and go up west st clair because that is the only way they know to get to the freeways. Now traffic is completely blocked on both roads. 

What became of the plans for creation of artistic space (sculpture, etc.) that was supposed to go under that bridge that connects the Warehouse District with Flats East. I recall artists discussing it and it was supposed to be installed at least by 2018.

Now this is more like it. But why don't they just stay open 24 hours? Make it the go-to/fallback option for for eating downtown? 

 

 

Edited June 18, 20195 yr by KJP

42 minutes ago, KJP said:

Now this is more like it. But why don't they just stay open 24 hours? Make it the go-to/fallback option for for eating downtown? 

 

 

 

Honestly Cleveland needs more 24 hour spots. Even when I’m not out partying, it’s still nice to grab a bite at 3 am. Or there were those times when I had late night study sessions as a grad student that would have been amazing to grab a bite. 

 

I bough 3 vodka shots, a double Tito’s on the rocks, and a beer Friday for 25$ at the Map Room. Not sure what it would have cost me in the flats, haha. At least 50$. A dive bar in flats will be great. 

 

 

On 6/18/2019 at 8:36 AM, imjustinjk said:

 

A dive bar in flats will be great. 

 

 

agreed but it won't happen.  Best bet is right on the "edge" of the flats, like in the old "port" distillery or just down the block in the Samsel building...

I think they are in the former Flipside Restaurant

Downtown proper needs a few 24 hr diners as well.

Dive bars are cultivated over years, decades, of use. Calling something a dive bar doesn’t make it one.

There are lots of dive bars in the Flats... Just not in the Scott Wolstein part of the Flats.

Edited June 20, 20195 yr by mu2010

I just realized that I don't think I've ever shared this really awful high-rise design for the Flats. This would have been built in the 1990s on Great Lakes Towing's property whose address is 1290 Old River Rd.

Any idea on when the 'fish shacks' will break ground?  It's been pretty dead silent on that front

2 hours ago, KJP said:

I just realized that I don't think I've ever shared this really awful high-rise design for the Flats. This would have been built in the 1990s on Great Lakes Towing's property whose address is 1290 Old River Rd.

 

Are you implying that a screened parking deck is not the best use of riverfront property?  /sarcasm

Pulled this over from the random development thread:

 

16 hours ago, KJP said:

I should have included FEB phase 3, but I'm getting expressions/senses of doubt from sources that it will get built. Not information, mind you, just "feelings." Could be unwarranted pessimism. We'll see. 

 

13 hours ago, simplythis said:

Why is is FEB constantly having issues getting stated. It is like the lakefront project. 

 

13 hours ago, Terdolph said:

Because the waterfront line doesn't run frequently enough.

 

13 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

Obviously financing is the main factor, but I’m with you on your frustrations on the Waterfront Line.  How infuriating is it to hear both Wolstein and FEB visitors complaining about traffic in and out of the Flats while simultaneously getting proposals from RTA that involve eliminating Waterfront Line service? It’s just mind numbing. Run frequent WL service to the Muni lots (and Tower City) Thurs-Sat evenings. Promote the hell out of it. Flats traffic problem solved. 

 

9 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

 I'm not sure Cleveland is a "micro-apartment" market, as Kennect proposes. Why would millennials want to live in 500 sq ft, barely room for their stuff, when in Cleveland they can afford more? I keep expecting to hear about a revision to the concept.

 

In response to @Dougal's comment - I think the micro apartment concept is great!  There are MANY millennials who CAN'T afford downtown Cleveland - just because it's cheaper than other cities doesn't mean it's cheap.  And even those who can afford it still might not want to spend the extra money on rent (compared to most local suburban options).  This micro-apartment is PERFECT for anyone who wants to live downtown, figures they won't spend that much time in their own apartment anyway, and can't afford/justify the current cost of getting a downtown apartment.

"Micro apartment" seems like it's just marketing speak for somewhat smallish units.  500 sq ft is just a smallish apartment, and probably pretty close to an average size for people in their early/mid 20's in an urban/downtown environment.