Nice.  The only question I have are those really the vistas one will see out of the windows? The site is on the corner backside of the apartment building

 

 

^I was thinking the same thing.

Nice.  The only question I have are those really the vistas one will see out of the windows? The site is on the corner backside of the apartment building

Dave I think you should avoid all FEB renderings. Cuz now they're just messin with you... :-D

Slightly confused by this...

 

City Council Debates Flats East Bank Sales Tax Hike

 

City Council’s amalgamated Development, Planning and Sustainability Committee & Finance Committee looked into the community authority proposal coming out of the Flats East Bank district, which would see an extra 1.5-percent sales tax tossed onto transactions in the future.

 

“Developers made a decision to make these charges,” Economic Development Director Tracey Nichols said, bucking culpability off the city. The idea, she continued, would be to tax the visitors who will come and “use” the district, rather than the forthcoming residents. She cited an obscure Butler County “Crocker Park-esque-type development” as another example of this sort of tax working to fund commercial and residential improvements in Ohio.

 

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2015/02/02/city-council-debates-flats-east-bank-sales-tax-hike

Slightly confused by this...

 

City Council Debates Flats East Bank Sales Tax Hike

 

City Council’s amalgamated Development, Planning and Sustainability Committee & Finance Committee looked into the community authority proposal coming out of the Flats East Bank district, which would see an extra 1.5-percent sales tax tossed onto transactions in the future.

 

“Developers made a decision to make these charges,” Economic Development Director Tracey Nichols said, bucking culpability off the city. The idea, she continued, would be to tax the visitors who will come and “use” the district, rather than the forthcoming residents. She cited an obscure Butler County “Crocker Park-esque-type development” as another example of this sort of tax working to fund commercial and residential improvements in Ohio.

 

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2015/02/02/city-council-debates-flats-east-bank-sales-tax-hike

 

I watched some of the live stream the afternoon.  It was some of the most idiotic, cringeworthy grandstanding I have ever seen.

 

Slightly confused by this...

 

City Council Debates Flats East Bank Sales Tax Hike

 

City Council’s amalgamated Development, Planning and Sustainability Committee & Finance Committee looked into the community authority proposal coming out of the Flats East Bank district, which would see an extra 1.5-percent sales tax tossed onto transactions in the future.

 

“Developers made a decision to make these charges,” Economic Development Director Tracey Nichols said, bucking culpability off the city. The idea, she continued, would be to tax the visitors who will come and “use” the district, rather than the forthcoming residents. She cited an obscure Butler County “Crocker Park-esque-type development” as another example of this sort of tax working to fund commercial and residential improvements in Ohio.

 

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2015/02/02/city-council-debates-flats-east-bank-sales-tax-hike

 

I watched some of the live stream the afternoon.  It was some of the most idiotic, cringeworthy grandstanding I have ever seen.

 

 

I hate to say that someone is stupid, and I am usually bothered when people resort to ad hominem attacks, but Zack Reed is just not an intelligent person. I've attended a number of city council meetings over the last few weeks and will occasionally listen to him on the radio, and he just fails to grasp simple concepts. It's always all about putting on a show. I don't get how his arguments regarding this issue make any sense.

I think its clear he's eyeing a mayoral run after Frank Jackson carries out this final term.  Now is his time to get in the press and get attention for grandstanding on what considers populist issues.  Pity we have to suffer through watching it.  I actually like the attention he spends on promoting fatherhood, community policing, and his criticism of society's disregard for "routine" murders.

I don't understand the point of this?  Why are they singling out the FEB with respect to raising the sales tax 1.5% to fund other commercial and residential projects across the state?

The Butler County project in question is Liberty Center - their added tax is .5%. http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/business/funding-finalized-for-mega-retail-project-liberty-/njLtT/

 

And please, let's not have this thread get derailed - especially to discuss a mayoral run by Zack Reed.

Raising sales taxes in hot new entertainment districts is not new in big cities, especially when there's a lot of new construction involved.  It's just new to Cleveland because we have not had this kind of growth in many years.

Raising sales taxes in hot new entertainment districts is not new in big cities, especially when there's a lot of new construction involved.  It's just new to Cleveland because we have not had this kind of growth in many years.

 

There is no rationale beyond corporate welfare and taxation without representation.

 

If you can't build it, then don't. 

 

Private developers can now levy taxes on the citizenry?

 

 

I don't understand the point of this?  Why are they singling out the FEB with respect to raising the sales tax 1.5% to fund other commercial and residential projects across the state?

 

My understanding is that this additional tax would fund the new infrastructure and improvements in the FEB area only - like a SID (special improvement district).  Its a way for the developer not to pay for the construction on non cash producing components of the development.  It's also a pretty slick tool because if Fairmount did have to foot the bill they would charge more rent on their properties which in turn would pressure the tenants to raise prices.  This way, consumers see the "low" price and then get hit with the tax only when they cash out.

Raising sales taxes in hot new entertainment districts is not new in big cities, especially when there's a lot of new construction involved.  It's just new to Cleveland because we have not had this kind of growth in many years.

 

There is no rationale beyond corporate welfare and taxation without representation.

 

If you can't build it, then don't. 

 

Private developers can now levy taxes on the citizenry?

 

Council passed the preliminary components of this a long time ago.  The developer cannot tax the citizenry.

Raising sales taxes in hot new entertainment districts is not new in big cities, especially when there's a lot of new construction involved.  It's just new to Cleveland because we have not had this kind of growth in many years.

 

There is no rationale beyond corporate welfare and taxation without representation.

 

If you can't build it, then don't. 

 

Private developers can now levy taxes on the citizenry?

 

 

I agree. They're already getting all kinds of tax breaks and now they want to increase taxes as well?? To pay for what? The boardwalk that was part of their development? The roads that were part of their development? The buildings that they charge rent for and were part of their development? I don't get it. I'm not tax averse but come on.

Raising sales taxes in hot new entertainment districts is not new in big cities, especially when there's a lot of new construction involved.  It's just new to Cleveland because we have not had this kind of growth in many years.

 

There is no rationale beyond corporate welfare and taxation without representation.

 

If you can't build it, then don't. 

 

Private developers can now levy taxes on the citizenry?

 

Council passed the preliminary components of this a long time ago.  The developer cannot tax the citizenry.

 

Seems like a thin veil.  The developer is asking for it, council is doing their bidding.

Can Special Improvement Districts (SIDs) be created in the city of Cleveland? 

Seems like a thin veil.  The developer is asking for it, council is doing their bidding.

 

So the song of representative democracy goes my good man.

I don't understand the point of this?  Why are they singling out the FEB with respect to raising the sales tax 1.5% to fund other commercial and residential projects across the state?

 

My understanding is that this additional tax would fund the new infrastructure and improvements in the FEB area only - like a SID (special improvement district).  Its a way for the developer not to pay for the construction on non cash producing components of the development.  It's also a pretty slick tool because if Fairmount did have to foot the bill they would charge more rent on their properties which in turn would pressure the tenants to raise prices.  This way, consumers see the "low" price and then get hit with the tax only when they cash out.

Understood.  Thanks.  In short, we finance an aspect of the construction project by raising sales tax.  I understand this, to a degree, if it is being used in a downtown district that a developer is taking a huge gamble on from the starting line.  It's a lure.  Howeer, for a Crocker Park style development in the suburbs that's going to be a win 90% of the time, that's garbage.  Like was said up-thread, if you can't do it, don't.  Someone else with money will do it in Westlake...or Butler County.

 

I would want to assurance however that every aspect of the infrastructure work is accounted for from a cost perspective, and this tax wiped out once that cost is achieved.  If it goes a penny over, then this is just wrong. 

 

 

Cleveland.com's story is lot clearer than Scene's: http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2015/02/flats_east_bank_developers_wan.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

To confirm, the developers are the ones seeking this:

 

The taxes would raise about $30 million over three decades. A draft of the petition circulating among council members provides a broad outline of possible uses for the money, including advertising of the district, festivals and other community events, insurance, security, associated operating costs, consultant fees, and legal and financial advising.

 

The city would just be the conduit.  Putting aside the dramatics (seriously, "taxation without representation"?), this is pretty weird. Unless prominently posted, it's the literal "hidden tax" that most patrons will know nothing about and probably won't even notice.  I can't imagine the retailers and hotel are happy about this, though, unless it's something they knew was in the works (which is entirely possible).

Similar special improvement districts exist in many areas of the city -- downtown, Ohio City, Gordon Square, Kamms Corners, University Circle -- in which at least 60 percent of property owners agree to tax themselves to provide enhanced local services which Strap noted in the last message.

^Not really the same thing, IMHO. With BIDs/SIDs, property owners are electing to tax themselves, and have a voice in how the money is spent.  This thing here is pretty different animal. I guess it's not super offensive, because anyone can simply choose not to patronize FEB establishments and avoid paying the tax, but I doubt most people will know until they get their hotel/restaurant bill, and even then probably won't notice.

Similar special improvement districts exist in many areas of the city -- downtown, Ohio City, Gordon Square, Kamms Corners, University Circle -- in which at least 60 percent of property owners agree to tax themselves to provide enhanced local services which Strap noted in the last message.

 

Are you talking about DCA? 

 

I don't think DCA is a tax levied by the city.

 

Furthermore there is no mention of oversight of how the funds are spent in the current article.

^Not really the same thing, IMHO. With BIDs/SIDs, property owners are electing to tax themselves, and have a voice in how the money is spent.  This thing here is pretty different animal. I guess it's not super offensive, because anyone can simply choose not to patronize FEB establishments and avoid paying the tax, but I doubt most people will know until they get their hotel/restaurant bill, and even then probably won't notice.

 

Give a different set of facts, yes.  But here, the only property owner is Fairmount, who is indeed electing to tax themselves and decides how the money is spent.

^Not really the same thing, IMHO. With BIDs/SIDs, property owners are electing to tax themselves, and have a voice in how the money is spent.  This thing here is pretty different animal. I guess it's not super offensive, because anyone can simply choose not to patronize FEB establishments and avoid paying the tax, but I doubt most people will know until they get their hotel/restaurant bill, and even then probably won't notice.

He has a point though in that property owners will obviously re-coup their tax costs by passing it off to the consumer in the form of higher pricing.  There's hiden taxes that grocery stores pay also. Obviously they can't tax our food to pass it down, but they increase their pricing. 

 

As far as having a voice in how this money is spent, I assume that this money is already spent on the new infrastructure that was installed for the development.  This should be a repayment, not a slush fund.  If it is the latter, then this is a raw deal. 

^The article suggests this money is going into Wolstein/Fairmount's account to fund marketing stuff and special events, not infrastructure or any hard costs (the city's share of the property taxes are already doing that).

 

^^If this is really just Fairmount taxing itself, why go through this process at all? Why wouldn't Fairmount just pay the costs directly? Clearly they think they're extracting $ out of someone.

More detail of Zack's shack....

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2015/02062015/index.php

 

City Planning Commission

Agenda for February 6, 2015

 

DF2015-002 – Zack Bruell Restaurant New Construction: Seeking Final Approval

Project Address: 1056 Old River Road

Project Representative: Jen Dotson, Geis Companies

 

 

 

 

 

^The design definitely works for me... Unfortunately the 2nd exterior rendering ("river facade from the west) is out of context and doesn't do the restaurant justice.  It shows the restaurant, while located on the boardwalk, sitting in front of the empty parking lot of 2 years ago when, in reality, the substantial 242-unit apartment building will loom over its shoulder.  So if you can alter this rendering in your mind with the apartment behind it, the project seems all the more exciting.

^The article suggests this money is going into Wolstein/Fairmount's account to fund marketing stuff and special events, not infrastructure or any hard costs (the city's share of the property taxes are already doing that).

 

^^If this is really just Fairmount taxing itself, why go through this process at all? Why wouldn't Fairmount just pay the costs directly? Clearly they think they're extracting $ out of someone.

 

Agreed. Developers don't propose anything unless it benefits them. A special sales tax introduces questions that most people wouldn't have had otherwise. Who manages the money? What will it be used for? What happens if it brings in less than expected? Or more? Adding the tax makes the whole thing feel slimy.

 

Maintenance, advertising, events, etc are part of doing business and should be baked into the cost of goods, not tacked on as a surcharge at the end of the bill.

 

I actually prefer the preliminary design posted by the PD.

^The design definitely works for me... Unfortunately the 2nd exterior rendering ("river facade from the west) is out of context and doesn't do the restaurant justice.  It shows the restaurant, while located on the boardwalk, sitting in front of the empty parking lot of 2 years ago when, in reality, the substantial 242-unit apartment building will loom over its shoulder.  So if you can alter this rendering in your mind with the apartment behind it, the project seems all the more exciting.

 

Seriously, Geis has hands down the worst renderings by a supposedly professional developer that I've ever seen.  Those are unacceptable.

Nice.  The only question I have are those really the vistas one will see out of the windows? The site is on the corner backside of the apartment building

Dave I think you should avoid all FEB renderings. Cuz now they're just messin with you... :-D

 

Freethink.  I am glad Clvlndr and W28th agree about the renderings.  I wish the Plain Dealer and The Wolstein Group never had shown the original concept for Zack Bruell's.  I find it far more superior in its design. I have attached what The Flats East Bank posted on its Facebook page.  I hope the planning commission asks them about that design as an option

I actually prefer the preliminary design posted by the PD.

 

It could be a bit more rounded at the ends, which would make it sexier... Actually, the concept drawings for FEB when Fairmount locked on an overall design, is rounded -- the shape of a grand piano -- and would be preferable.

yeah the original looks more easily interactive with the boardwalk. the new version looks kind of defensive and walled off by its design and a solid grass median.

OK you guys got to get over that rendering from the peedee. This was probably just a piece that Fairmount used to interest a tenant.  When Zack Bruell saw that he probably said something like 'wow that's nice' how much is that? And that's when sticker shock reared its ugly head and GLSD went to work armed with the latest version of Microsoft Paint and Google Earth images from 2008. The new renderings are obviously horrible, dave68 does better work in his sleep. I don't think Zack Bruell would allow anything less than a first class building.

^I was kinda thinking the same thing.  That the PD rendering was just a generic Fairmount conceptual rendering for that site that has been around forever...probably well before Burell was ever signed up as a tenant.

^The design definitely works for me... Unfortunately the 2nd exterior rendering ("river facade from the west) is out of context and doesn't do the restaurant justice.  It shows the restaurant, while located on the boardwalk, sitting in front of the empty parking lot of 2 years ago when, in reality, the substantial 242-unit apartment building will loom over its shoulder.  So if you can alter this rendering in your mind with the apartment behind it, the project seems all the more exciting.

 

Seriously, Geis has hands down the worst renderings by a supposedly professional developer that I've ever seen.  Those are unacceptable.

 

W.28th...I am a bit confused?  What is Geis' involvement with the restaurant?

^The design definitely works for me... Unfortunately the 2nd exterior rendering ("river facade from the west) is out of context and doesn't do the restaurant justice.  It shows the restaurant, while located on the boardwalk, sitting in front of the empty parking lot of 2 years ago when, in reality, the substantial 242-unit apartment building will loom over its shoulder.  So if you can alter this rendering in your mind with the apartment behind it, the project seems all the more exciting.

 

Seriously, Geis has hands down the worst renderings by a supposedly professional developer that I've ever seen.  Those are unacceptable.

 

W.28th...I am a bit confused?  What is Geis' involvement with the restaurant?

 

GLSD is the architecture arm of The Geis Companies

^thanks

At least the Design Review Committee shared similar sentiments regarding "Alley Cat's" design.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/design_review_committee_critic.html#incart_m-rpt-1

At least the Design Review Committee shared similar sentiments regarding "Alley Cat's" design.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/design_review_committee_critic.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

"Members of the Design Review Committee were unimpressed by the design for the Bruell restaurant, which they described as incomplete, vague and lacking in personality."

 

I'm glad the review committee is holding up higher standards.

At least the Design Review Committee shared similar sentiments regarding "Alley Cat's" design.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/design_review_committee_critic.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

"Members of the Design Review Committee were unimpressed by the design for the Bruell restaurant, which they described as incomplete, vague and lacking in personality."

 

I'm glad the review committee is holding up higher standards.

 

Did these folks see Beach Taco yet?

Here is some good reporting by, as usual, Michelle.  This answers a lot of the questions we had.  Finally, Cimperman and Wolstein weighs in with some logic.

 

Flats East Bank dining, shopping, lodging could cost you a few extra bucks. Here's why.

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- A nickel on a latte. Two dimes on a $10 parking tab. Just over a buck on a $90 steak at Ken Stewart's East Bank restaurant. And $3 more at the Aloft hotel.

 

That's the extra money visitors to the Flats East Bank project might have to shell out, if Cleveland City Council signs off on the creation of a funding scheme that would use surcharges on purchases in the 23-acre waterfront district to pay for amped-up security, maintenance and other services along the Cuyahoga River.

 

That funding mechanism - known as a new community authority - would be the first of its kind in Cuyahoga County. Such authorities, governed by public-private boards, have been used in central and southern Ohio for years to fill development-financing gaps and generate funds for public spaces, parking garages, community buildings and other purposes.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/02/flats_east_bank_dining_shoppin.html#incart_river

At least the Design Review Committee shared similar sentiments regarding "Alley Cat's" design.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/02/design_review_committee_critic.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

"Members of the Design Review Committee were unimpressed by the design for the Bruell restaurant, which they described as incomplete, vague and lacking in personality."

 

I'm glad the review committee is holding up higher standards.

 

Did these folks see Beach Taco yet?

 

Agreed, Bruell's would be the last space I would be worried about.

Michelle J. McFee ‏mjarboe[/member]  2m2 minutes ago

At info hearing at #CLE City Hall re: proposed Flats East Bank new community authority.

 

@LeilaAtassi's live blog: http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2015/02/cleveland_city_council_to_hear_4.html#incart_river

City Council just passed the Flats East Bank sales tax petition 11-5-1. Surprisingly, Zack Reed switched his position and voted 'yes.'

Cle City Council authorizes Flats East Bank developer to tax patrons to pay for improvements, Mayor opposes measure http://t.co/oMPvpvryGv

Cle City Council authorizes Flats East Bank developer to tax patrons to pay for improvements, Mayor opposes measure http://t.co/oMPvpvryGv

 

"Mayor Frank Jackson, who said in a brief written statement last week that he opposes the ordinance..."

 

If the mayor apparently came out with a statement last week about this, I'm perplexed as to why such a big deal was made by Councilman Jeff Johnson at the Finance Committee meeting today about how no one knew the administration's position on the issue. To be fair, Councilman Cimperman also said he was ignorant of the mayor's position. Curious.

 

 

According to Sara Shookman of WKYC, Mayor Jackson has vetoed the FEB legislation.

 

Jackson, “I do not support raising taxes that will not help deliver services throughout the City of Cleveland or pay for City debt.”

 

Wow.  That seems ridiculous.  This would have essentially been a tax on wealthy entertainment seekers and tourists to maintain and program public space open to all.  I just don't understand the thrust of the arguments against.  Seems like a purely symbolic political maneuver over a practical one.

Interesting.  Has to be more to all this.  Somebody pissed off somebody.

 

Yet the administration will bend over backwards for Gilbert.