I know this isn't the best way to calculate specifics, but the dollar figure quoted in the article about Phase III is interesting to me. $150 million is obviously a sizable figure. But what does that mean?

 

Well, here's what it could mean. Consider that the Lumen tower at Playhouse Square is a $135 million project. At 34 stories, that's just under $4 million ($3.97 million) per floor. $150 million divided by $3.97 million is 37.8 floors. While I don't expect a 37.8-floor building or two 19-story buildings, whatever is going to be proposed is going to be tall -- easily 20+ stories for the "building two" site and possibly 10 stories (give or take) for "building one."

 

The Lumen is also $224.25 per square foot. By the time anything gets built in the Flats, the cost will surely rise above $225. So we're looking at maybe 666,000 square feet of new development. Clearly that's a massive project for a couple of relatively small footprints.

Is the cinema part of the Avenue, and if so would Bedrock want to redevelop the cinema? The flats really isn't too difficult to get down to with the trolley running until 11 and there's plenty of parking + ride share.

 

As far as I know the cinema is part of the Avenue. The Tower City location shines during the Cleveland International Film Festival. Even with the sad state of retail in Tower City the venue has been a great location with record crowds to show for it.

 

I'm usually on the west side of town so I could take the RTA and waterfront line to a FEB theater. Truth is it would be a lot less time consuming driving to Westlake.

That's the key right there. I know, I know, I'm beating a dead horse but they need to promote the WFL more and find sponsors or something t run it till at least 12 am on weekends. The train runs you back to Tower City, which is by most destination areas/parking or drops you off by North Coast harbor which some people may have parked due to proximity to the highway.

Wrong thread I am sure , but is the apartment tower across the river that basically had a moat around it still in play?  Is that part of "Phase 3"?

Wrong thread I am sure , but is the apartment tower across the river that basically had a moat around it still in play?  Is that part of "Phase 3"?

 

No. That's part of the Nautica development on the Flats West Bank:

https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,30713.0.html

 

I don't disagree with this at all. It's just that I'd like to see something novel suggested for FEB. A new theater at FEB just creates another void in Tower City, robbing Peter to pay Paul if you will.

 

Yes, I agree with the sentiment. I just think that FEB needs something in addition to the bars and restaurants. I love Punch Bowl because all of the activities, bowling, billiards, etc. are really fun. There's lots to do. Was just there last night playing ping pong while we had drinks. I party in the Warehouse District/FEB almost every weekend, but that's not everyone's shtick - haha.

 

I know this isn't the best way to calculate specifics, but the dollar figure quoted in the article about Phase III is interesting to me. $150 million is obviously a sizable figure. But what does that mean?

 

Well, here's what it could mean. Consider that the Lumen tower at Playhouse Square is a $135 million project. At 34 stories, that's just under $4 million ($3.97 million) per floor. $150 million divided by $3.97 million is 37.8 floors. While I don't expect a 37.8-floor building or two 19-story buildings, whatever is going to be proposed is going to be tall -- easily 20+ stories for the "building two" site and possibly 10 stories (give or take) for "building one."

 

The Lumen is also $224.25 per square foot. By the time anything gets built in the Flats, the cost will surely rise above $225. So we're looking at maybe 666,000 square feet of new development. Clearly that's a massive project for a couple of relatively small footprints.

 

The FEB lot is a lot bigger than the Lumen lot. Just a quick google maps measurement: the Lumen is being built on a space about 220x200. FEB lot is about 400x200. And The Lumen tower is only being built on what, half the space? With the garage on the other half? Its a fairly narrow tower. The Phase 2 development is going to be 11+ stories on a bigger space?

Phase 2 was the six-story apartment building. Phase 3 is whatever is coming next. Sure, the parking lot next to the Waterfront Line is big, but a multi-story building probably won't fill that entire lot. Most of it will be structured parking lined by retail/restaurants and of course whatever theater is planned. If they stick with the concepts in their most recent renderings, but just build their residential building taller, it's likely to be a skinny building. If so, that could leave a lot of square footage for the smaller riverfront site to provide.

Why protest a cinema/theater?  I would assume it would show different movies than what's shown at Tower City.  A small live theater would be a cool idea as well---with a small stage and 100-200 seats. Could be a cool venue.  In addition, for this to be a convenient, livable neighborhood, we need dry cleaners/laundry, drug store, small hardware store, bodega open 24/7.  I agree--it can't all be bars and higher priced restaurants.

Some movement on phase III

 

Schematic Design Approval

1. Project: DF2018

The Flats East Bank Restaurants

 

Proposed new multi-story building for multiple restaurant tenants on currently

vacant land, including the construction of exterior patios & site improvements.

Project Address: The Flats East Bank | Adj. to Alley Cat & Boardwalk

Project Representative:

Gabriel Fey, HSB Architects

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2018/06152018/DF_DRAC-agenda06-14-18.pdf

Why protest a cinema/theater?  I would assume it would show different movies than what's shown at Tower City.  A small live theater would be a cool idea as well---with a small stage and 100-200 seats. Could be a cool venue.  In addition, for this to be a convenient, livable neighborhood, we need dry cleaners/laundry, drug store, small hardware store, bodega open 24/7.  I agree--it can't all be bars and higher priced restaurants.

 

Universal principle - people will protest anything.

Why protest a cinema/theater?  I would assume it would show different movies than what's shown at Tower City.  A small live theater would be a cool idea as well---with a small stage and 100-200 seats. Could be a cool venue.  In addition, for this to be a convenient, livable neighborhood, we need dry cleaners/laundry, drug store, small hardware store, bodega open 24/7.  I agree--it can't all be bars and higher priced restaurants.

 

Universal principle - people will protest anything.

 

I am against picketing but I don't know how to show it. - Mitch Hedberg

Any renderings of this new building?

They'll probably be posted next week for Friday's design review. Could be actual renderings or just rough massing for schematic approval.

Anyone with a Crains subscription that can post the update and article for FEB III?

The description is a series of 3-story New England fishing shacks.

 

Anyone with a Crains subscription that can post the update and article for FEB III?

 

The article is publicly available at:

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180608/news/164586/next-phase-flats-east-bank-surfaces

 

I'm pretty sure those fishing shacks won't cost $150 million to build, so let's see what Wolstein has up his other sleeve.

I kinda like it. Maybe they can make it a bit more ground-level friendly?

The description is a series of 3-story New England fishing shacks.

 

 

I really like these. A bit small, but not bad for waterfront. This for the grassy spot between FWD and Alley Cat, correct?

 

 

 

 

Does anyone remember these renderings? There are a lot of old ones floating around.

 

 

Is this the most up-to-date rendering for what's going on the parking lot? Or? It's not as tall as I'd like.

Am I the only one who's feeling a bit leery about more restaurants coming to the East Bank?

Am I the only one who's feeling a bit leery about more restaurants coming to the East Bank?

 

That's what I was getting at. Something else needs to pop up, a theater, amenities, whatever. Downtown Cleveland doesn't have a ton of amenities for residents.

Am I the only one who's feeling a bit leery about more restaurants coming to the East Bank?

 

That's what I was getting at. Something else needs to pop up, a theater, amenities, whatever. Downtown Cleveland doesn't have a ton of amenities for residents.

 

I recall the original Flats had gift shops, tourist information center and other businesses aside from bars and restaurants. Would be nice to see more diversity today.

I don't remember any gift shops but maybe it's a bit of a blur for some reason.

I don't remember any gift shops but maybe it's a bit of a blur for some reason.

 

Some reason....haha. There was actually a freaking surf shop there near Collision Bend. Believe it or not. It was really cool.

 

Iron City Surf Shop.

I don't remember that at all. 

I don't remember that at all. 

 

There was also a surf shop during the same time in Tower City. Elements Surf Shop.

 

Since these places predated the internet as we know it, it's as if they never existed.

Too late for Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps, too early for the internet, 1937-1997 will be a dark age in local history.  ;)

Too late for Sanborn Fire Insurance Maps, too early for the internet, 1937-1997 will be a dark age in local history.  ;)

 

we'll have to scour newspaper microfilm and old telephone books (shudders)

I don't remember that at all. 

 

There was also a surf shop during the same time in Tower City. Elements Surf Shop.

 

Since these places predated the internet as we know it, it's as if they never existed.

 

I bought my Vision Streetwear there, and Bad Boy Club. Mayfield Heights had a surf shop too...suitcase williys??

I don't remember that at all. 

 

There was also a surf shop during the same time in Tower City. Elements Surf Shop.

 

Since these places predated the internet as we know it, it's as if they never existed.

 

I bought my Vision Streetwear there, and Bad Boy Club. Mayfield Heights had a surf shop too...suitcase williys??

 

Lyndhurst, I think. Next to the bike shop.

A different image shows it much larger than I thought.

That's a sizable development. Looks like about 40,000 to 50,000 square feet. Now that I'm back from Italy, I can play with some numbers again....

 

Based on the possible land area involved and the number of floors and half-floors, I'm going to go with 45,000 square feet. At nearly $225 per square foot, what's shown in those renderings may be a $10 million development.

 

That leaves $140 million unaccounted for in Wolstein's Phase III. The buildable land area for the parking lot next to the Waterfront Line is about 90,000 sf, providing for some space next to the Shoreway bridge and less along the Waterfront Line. The most recent renderings for this site show a base structure of about 2-3 stories including a multilevel parking deck behind. If that's still the plan, then let's go with with an average of three stories/levels for the base structure. So that's about 270,000 square feet. At $225/sf, that's about $60,750,000.

 

So now we've got roughly $70 million accounted for, and $80 million unaccounted for. If this is proposed to be topped by a residential tower with Lumen-sized floorplates, at $4 million per floor, we may be looking at a 20-story building atop this 2-3 story base. The tower's size could be less if the parking deck is taller than 3-4 levels.

June 08, 2018 3:01 pm      Updated 3 days ago

Next phase of Flats East Bank surfaces

By STAN BULLARD       

 

Designs that Wolstein Group has placed on the agenda for the June 14 meeting of the city's Downtown/Flats Design Review show a group of restaurants, many with exterior patios. The project consists of two buildings of three stories each. Each structure would contain about 6,000 square feet of space.

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180608/news/164586/next-phase-flats-east-bank-surfaces

This area should look like Amsterdam, for all the resources invested in it.  Instead we're going out of our way to simulate the aesthetics of a sardine factory.  Literally.  If we wanted historic waterfront buildings-- we already had those and tore them all down!  This is insanity to the power of insanity.

Hmmm.  What happened to all the talk about a cinema and a couple of 11-20 story towers that everyone was speculating a few weeks ago.

Hmmm.  What happened to all the talk about a cinema and a couple of 11-20 story towers that everyone was speculating a few weeks ago.

 

The smaller building is going on the riverfront between Alley Cat and FWD. The large multi use complex will be going on the large parking lot in the middle area.

Hmmm.  What happened to all the talk about a cinema and a couple of 11-20 story towers that everyone was speculating a few weeks ago.

 

The smaller building is going on the riverfront between Alley Cat and FWD. The large multi use complex will be going on the large parking lot in the middle area.

 

 

So now the large 11-20 story building is phase 4 

Channel  5 story. https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/e-team/developers-set-their-sights-on-flats-east-bank-for-new-project

Hmmm.  What happened to all the talk about a cinema and a couple of 11-20 story towers that everyone was speculating a few weeks ago.

 

The smaller building is going on the riverfront between Alley Cat and FWD. The large multi use complex will be going on the large parking lot in the middle area.

 

 

So now the large 11-20 story building is phase 4 

 

I'm assuming that the two new buildings are just part of an overall larger Phase 3.

June 15, 2018 2:13 pm     

Flats East Bank expansion looms

 

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20180615/news/165341/flats-east-bank-expansion-looms

 

Wolstein said if the city of Cleveland approves yet-to-be introduced incentives for the next phase of Flats East and final building approvals are received this summer, plans call for starting work as soon as the busy waterfront season ends. That would be tax-increment financing (TIF) legislation, though Wolstein would not discuss specifics before the city begins reviewing it publicly.

Designs for another section of Flats East's next phase, on the parking lot between Flats East Bank Apartments and Punch Bowl Social to the west and the Aloft Hotel and EY office building to the east, will start the city's design review process in July, Wolstein said.

I expect this to be a significant structure, including a residential tower of at least 20 stories in height, possibly as tall as 25 stories.

^Well I like your optimism but previous renderings give no indication of anything that tall.  Unless they have landed that corporate client that every one else is chasing.

And with their split from Fairmount it's hard to tell what direction they may go.  It's possible they could put together a OneUniversity type package with numerous partners. But right now I am leaning towards it being more conservative than what you are suggesting.

^Well I like your optimism but previous renderings give no indication of anything that tall. 

 

 

No, but previous articles have....

 

Wolstein also is talking to the Cleveland International Fund, the senior lender on land earmarked for phase three. That property includes grassy space where new restaurants could rise between FWD Day and Nightclub and Alley Cat Oyster Bar, near the Cuyahoga River, and a parking lot behind the existing apartments. The movie theater would occupy the northern end of the parking lot, with retail and a 15-to-20-story apartment tower to the south.

 

...He also won't name the out-of-town partner he expects to pair with on the apartment tower, which could hold 300 residences.

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2017/09/scott_wolstein_eyes_flats_east.html

 

And, more recently:

 

He [Wolstein] expects the first round of plans for phase three, a potential $150 million undertaking, to crop up at city design-review committee meetings within weeks. New buildings would rise in two locations - on a grassy area near the river between FWD Day and Nightclub and Alley Cat Oyster Bar and in place of a parking lot behind the apartment building that bears an illuminated "Flats East Bank" sign.

http://realestate.cleveland.com/realestate-news/2018/05/wolstein_family_fairmount_prop.html

 

Granted, the existing Flats East Bank apartment building has 240 apartments in a structure having 7 usable stories although the ground floor is an open double-floor so the building looks like eight stories tall. Consider the land area occupied by this large building. It's huge! The building itself (less parking) measures more than 300,000 square feet! The space that might be taken by the new apartment tower is not so expansive. In fact, at most the surface area it might cover could be about 45,000-50,000 square feet. Now if the plan for the Phase III apartment tower will continue to offer 300 apartments (nearly the same as Lumen's 318 units which, BTW,, is costing $135 million vs. Flats East Bank's $150 million Phase III) and occupy a smaller surface area than the Flats phase II apartment building, then we're talking a pretty tall building. The question is, how big will this tower's floorplates be? As noted above, it would be roughly the southern half of the parking lot at West 11th and Main. If you take it literally that it will be exactly the southern half, then the larger red polygon is that southern half, representing the 45,000-50,000 square feet. But I recall seeing past renderings that a parking deck could be built along the Waterfront Line side of this lot. If so, then we may be talking the left half of that polygon. If so, then the floorplates of the apartment tower may be much smaller, like 20,000-30,000 square feet.

 

Look at the site graphic for a comparison of the potential areas involved. We have an expansive area for the existing 240-unit apartment, 7-to 8-story building vs. a possibly small area for the 300-unit apartment building. The floorplates will determine the height. We already have a pretty good idea of the number of units (about 300) and the cost (about $140 million--that will also include the retail/movie theater/parking). We'll see what Wolstein has in mind. I'm betting 20+ stories including the multi-level retail/movie theater/parking base structure.

Anyone hear any word about the concept that's supposed to be replacing Flipside (it's a 70s-themed restaurant/bar)? Originally they said it would open in the spring but I haven't heard anything since then.

alrighty then -- more residential -- so this is great news.

 

if they can only do piece by piece now for phase three that is fine.

 

the tower will come along later i guess.

 

i like the style. its not flashy, but its alright.

 

hopefully the public gets to access those open roof decks.

^mrnyc..are you referring to the two fish shack buildings proposed for along the river.  If yes where did the residential aspect come from.  They are only a total of 6000 square feet and the article states they will house restaurants.  Are you referring to residential for the still to be revealed building on the parking lot between the first apartment building and the EY Building?

^ oh thanks -- i see i mixed those up. work and play on the internet do not mix today!

 

Granted, the existing Flats East Bank apartment building has 240 apartments in a structure having 7 usable stories although the ground floor is an open double-floor so the building looks like eight stories tall. Consider the land area occupied by this large building. It's huge! The building itself (less parking) measures more than 300,000 square feet! The space that might be taken by the new apartment tower is not so expansive. In fact, at most the surface area it might cover could be about 45,000-50,000 square feet. Now if the plan for the Phase III apartment tower will continue to offer 300 apartments (nearly the same as Lumen's 318 units which, BTW,, is costing $135 million vs. Flats East Bank's $150 million Phase III) and occupy a smaller surface area than the Flats phase II apartment building, then we're talking a pretty tall building. The question is, how big will this tower's floorplates be? As noted above, it would be roughly the southern half of the parking lot at West 11th and Main. If you take it literally that it will be exactly the southern half, then the larger red polygon is that southern half, representing the 45,000-50,000 square feet. But I recall seeing past renderings that a parking deck could be built along the Waterfront Line side of this lot. If so, then we may be talking the left half of that polygon. If so, then the floorplates of the apartment tower may be much smaller, like 20,000-30,000 square feet.

 

Look at the site graphic for a comparison of the potential areas involved. We have an expansive area for the existing 240-unit apartment, 7-to 8-story building vs. a possibly small area for the 300-unit apartment building. The floorplates will determine the height. We already have a pretty good idea of the number of units (about 300) and the cost (about $140 million--that will also include the retail/movie theater/parking). We'll see what Wolstein has in mind. I'm betting 20+ stories including the multi-level retail/movie theater/parking base structure.

 

Old renderings had the tower closer to the Phase 2 apartment building.  Although this rendering has the tower much shorter.  And this older lease plan did have the parking garage up against the WFL.

 

 

 

 

 

Which is what I said and what you quoted.

This has been a long project with many moving parts and various proposed plans. Were there any plans for the lot between FWD and Margaritaville? For example, I don't think that Margaritaville was the original intention for that space. I think that if Phase 3 is completed, other FEB parking lots should be filled. It would make for a really great, and complete space.

There's a graphic two posts earlier showing that a parking deck was planned for that lot. As far as I know either a surface lot or deck is all that's ever been planned for that spot.

A deck with street level retail or? Maybe that'll change pending the success of phase 3.