^Sounds similar to Magnolia, which was in the FEB apartmemts.

Welp, this doesn't look good. The target dates of starting construction of Kenect Cleveland this year have been removed from the Dodge Reports listing for this project, replaced with "Progression pending Owner's decision to advance/pending City approval - Exact schedules to be determined." 

 

I sure hope phase 3B gets built. However, this does not surprise me one bit.

His projects always take FOREVER to gets started and then something ALWAYS

happens to the economy, world, etc. ( 2007-08 Market Crash, Covid-19, Social Injustice, ETC).

Real Estate Markets are always peaks and valleys and he just takes too ling to get going

in those peak opportunities and then come the valleys..

This is is a matter of your head and your heart. Your heart says yes and your

head says no way. Most projects affiliated with Scott Wolstein eventually don't

happen, even though this might not be his fault as his Kennect partners are having second thoughts. 

I would not get too overly excited on his Nautica project.

 

TBH, the micro-apartment has limited appeal to me and, while I realize others like it, I doubt there are enough of you. I think Kenect, as proposed, would be a tough building to fill.

1 hour ago, simplythis said:

I sure hope phase 3B gets built. However, this does not surprise me one bit.

His projects always take FOREVER to gets started and then something ALWAYS

happens to the economy, world, etc. ( 2007-08 Market Crash, Covid-19, Social Injustice, ETC).

Real Estate Markets are always peaks and valleys and he just takes too ling to get going

in those peak opportunities and then come the valleys..

This is is a matter of your head and your heart. Your heart says yes and your

head says no way. Most projects affiliated with Scott Wolstein eventually don't

happen, even though this might not be his fault as his Kennect partners are having second thoughts. 

I would not get too overly excited on his Nautica project.

 

I thought, per a KJP clarification, that Wolstein doesn't really have much, or anything, to do with that Nautica project, at least not at this point.

I hate to say it but I'm glad the project is on hold. I hope it is terminated. I come to that conclusion after weighing the prospect of another valuable piece of land remaining a parking lot vs. wasting that property on what I consider to be an incredibly vanilla design. Kenect appears to have a signature look and that look reminds me of a Chrysler K car back in the 80's  Bland and blocky. A totally forgettable look. Just like the Kenect building

 

In the 60's and 70's we often hired an architectural firm of some renown but that firm would offer us a second or third rate design because they thought Cleveland was a second or third rate town. And we settled for it thereby proving their point. Lately we seem to have changed the narrative. Key bank, the Hilton hotel, City Club, the Luman (it WAS great until our own people felt the need to justify their board positions by foolishly adding strips on 2 sides), the new apt. building in the west bank and the new apt. building in university circle. These designs are first rate and worthy of a normal, modern city. Welcome to the club Cleveland.

 

So let's hope after the dust settles and things get back to normal the East Bank property goes back to square one. Take a look at the original design we were promised. It was diverse, busy and dense. It had texture. It seemed organic, like it fit into the property naturally. The East Bank building we have now is a decent start but the Kenect design is a huge step backwards. Plus, if the current street design doesn't change the whole area looks more like something moved from a suburban development instead of a living urban neighborhood. 

 

I prefer to gamble on a hopefully better design down the road rather than waste valuable (nearby) waterfront  property on a piss pore building. I can dream, can't I?

 

 

I think I'm the opposite, in that I'd rather take a decent design (which I think this was/is, not great, but not terrible) now over a maybe on a possible great design at some possible point down the road. Especially when there is no guarantee that day will come this decade. Plenty of empty lots to still fill in when someone wants to propose and finance that stellar design. Give us the added density now to help build the demand for even more in the future.

Architecture is art, and what is considered attractive can produce 100 different reactions from 100 different people. So I don't get hung up on visual appearances as much as I do on how the building relates to its surroundings (especially sidewalks and access) in an urban setting. But, in the better-than-nothing department -- just about any building, even a strip mall with some surface parking, is better than a parcel that is nothing but surface parking, IMHO.

7 hours ago, Dougal said:

TBH, the micro-apartment has limited appeal to me and, while I realize others like it, I doubt there are enough of you. I think Kenect, as proposed, would be a tough building to fill.

 

The reliance on a movie theater filling up space always struck me as wishful thinking. 

On 7/15/2020 at 8:53 PM, urbanetics_ said:

Can’t remember if this was discussed as part of FEB or WHD...I’ll put it here though since technically this space is more part of the Flats.

 

Good to see this project still moving along! Although I wonder how the whole club aspect of it will be, if anything for now, given the current situation. Tough time for this type of concept to be opening, but hopefully they can adapt and make something work in the meantime!

 

So how does this work for someone like machine gun Kelly who is trying to open a new business during an ongoing pandemic?

 

I'm assuming the leasing company will want to collect their rent money on the building as soon as the business opens correct?

 

Is there a discount being applied by the leasing companies for the rent due to the pandemic?

 

If not, I just don't see how this can remain open past a year....your essentially operating as a coffee shop with a branding that sort of alienates. 

 

I can see this being a semi decent club though...but without a vaccine it will be hard for this business to stay open long.. especially if they are not getting a break with their rent costs. 

Edited July 22, 20204 yr by troeros

He's in the same boat as anyone who owns a food/beverage service business right now.  No more, no less.

8 hours ago, troeros said:

I'm assuming the leasing company will want to collect their rent money on the building as soon as the business opens correct?

 

Is there a discount being applied by the leasing companies for the rent due to the pandemic?

 

I imagine there are some commercial landlords playing nice and trying to help out, lest they lose their tenants.  

The truth is the vast majority of commercial tenants now are not paying rent at all.    This could be the source of the next market crash, and also the subject for the US economy thread. 

I wish MGK well in this space--I'll stop by for a coffee to support.  

The hospitality and retail industries in every city are severely underwater. For entertainment districts, it's dire. 

 

In Miami/Miami Beach, restaurants, bars, hotels, nightclubs, cruise lines, airlines, tour operators and rental car companies are all suffering immeasurable damage. Some Deco District motel owners have simply boarded up and walked away from their businesses. This is what they do and the damage is immeasurable. 

 

Proprietors, landlords and their employees are suffering tremendous damage and if things dont cool, they may never recover. In Cleveland, I worry about FEB and E. 4th Street.

Edited July 24, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

These will have a nice waterfront presence.  Is it known what restaurants or shops will be occupying the new buildings?

I believe it was Hampton Social and a club

I have no clue if any of this has changed since the pandemic, but here’s what all was slated to go in here (4 of them):
 

“The restaurant and bar concepts that have signed on to the project are the Hampton Social; a speakeasy-style bar called the Bassment, operated by the Hampton Social; a nightclub called Indulge; and an Asian-fusion restaurant, called Jade, from the operator of XO Prime Steaks.”

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cleveland.com/business/2019/05/flats-east-bank-project-moving-forward-with-design-approval-of-riverfront-restaurants-bars.html%3foutputType=amp

A terrible time for restaurants, though maybe the timing will work out as there will be fewer restaurants to compete with when they open.  Hampton Social appears to be some kind of chain out of Chicago.  Anyone know, is it any good or a cheesy chain?  From their website, it's not readily apparent.

 

https://www.thehamptonsocial.com/

^I get a strong Lindey’s Lake House vibe from it. I’ve never been to a Hampton Social before so can’t say for sure, but based on the website / photos, it seems pretty similar. Will be curious how they fare against each other - I love Lindey’s so hopefully this will be another good addition.

Edited August 3, 20204 yr by urbanetics_

Hampton Social is well suited for the millennial and people who want to get the perfect instagram post at brunch. Decent food, but that's the vibe i got when I have been.

I don't get how any new businesses now are rushing to open... especially if cases spike and there are new lockdown restrictions...just driving around town this weekend I noticed way more people at the grocery store versus at resturaunts...the bars were completely dead because of the new 10pm curfew. 

 

I just don't get how bars and restaurant operators arent hitting pause on opening new businesses until after the Pandemic is over. 

 

Right now it's probably the most uncertain economic times in us history, especially for Resturaunt and bar owners.

20 minutes ago, troeros said:

I don't get how any new businesses now are rushing to open... especially if cases spike and there are new lockdown restrictions...just driving around town this weekend I noticed way more people at the grocery store versus at resturaunts...the bars were completely dead because of the new 10pm curfew. 

 

I just don't get how bars and restaurant operators arent hitting pause on opening new businesses until after the Pandemic is over. 

 

Right now it's probably the most uncertain economic times in us history, especially for Resturaunt and bar owners.

 

Let's try to avoid hyperbole and keep some perspective. This pandemic doesn't hold a candle to other times of U.S. uncertainty, such as the financial meltdown of 2008-10 when we didn't know when we would be able to secure capital investment/mortgages again, or 9-11 where we realized we might face decades of Middle East War, or the industrial collapse of the 1970s and 1980s that took down countless Midwest-Northeast cities, or the Vietnam era when cities burned and Americans fought each other, or the 40-year-long Cold War where we weren't sure if we would wake up tomorrow, or World War II when it looked like the world was descending into totalitarianism (compared to others, America was barely touched by that war), or the Great Depression when it seemed that America's very economic foundations could not survive. And that's just the last 100 years. Look back to 5,000 years of civilization for so many other global uncertainties.

 

Even among history's pandemics, COVID-19 is a middleweight. While I understand that a vaccine may not be the cure-all for everyone, it offers a bright light at the end of the tunnel. And that tunnel does have a known, approximate length to reach the end. That offers more certainty than the other economic maladies that Americans have endured.

 

BTW, back to FEB -- Phase 3A isn't going to be finished in time for the Flats' peak time of the warm weather months. So they are unlikely to open until Spring anyway. And I suspect we'll be on our way to recovery from the pandemic by them.

Edited August 3, 20204 yr by KJP

Wasn't the new FEB supposed to be a new "neighborhood" that included mixed use live/work spaces, a movie theater, shopping and a grocery store?  

5 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Wasn't the new FEB supposed to be a new "neighborhood" that included mixed use live/work spaces, a movie theater, shopping and a grocery store?  

 

Yes, but it's a chicken-and-egg situation. Investors see an underperforming apartment building (and an underperforming hotel -- pre-COVID) and wonder why they should invest in building another apartment building right next to it -- even though the development would feature things that would make that area more of a true urban neighborhood. This is where investors invest in a person, in this case, Scott Wolstein. They're going to have to trust him. Will they?

42 minutes ago, KJP said:

Yes, I understand. I've already lost a cousin to COVID. She was 60 years old, obese, smoked, had diabetes. She was a ticking time bomb and COVID shortened her fuse.

 

But none of this has anything to do with FEB. Phase 3 is going to open next year, probably about May or June, which would be a delayed opening. Of greater concern to FEB is the apartment building that was built a couple of years ago. It has a hard time keeping tenants, especially with no convenience store within an easy walk. Yes, Constantino's is up the hill, but that's what is probably keeping the apartment building from being an utter failure, rather than just a partial failure.

Question: Is the construction of the Phase 3A on hold. Is seems an awful long time to build out 3-4 floors. We could have a half of a Lumen built out in 9months.

i do realize that the frame is constructed. Is the rest ongoing or onhold?

But they never put any amenities that you would find in an actual dense neighborhood. You have an urban cocktail bar/an italian restaurant-nightclub/a modern american steak place/a world of beer place/ a burger place/ a beer brewery/a bocce ball/ a pizza place/ a speakeasy style nightclub/ a swimming pool nightclub/a piano bar/ a grown up chuck e cheese/ a seafood place/ margaritaville/ and a small plates taco shack.

That's not counting collision bend or east end just across the way.

You have just bars, clubs, and restaurants! No dry cleaner, no grocery, no drugstore, no gift shop (wasn't this area supposed to be a huge tourist draw?), no phone stores, NOTHING ELSE.

Wolstein thinking they were going to reclaim the glory days from the ok boomer era was never going to work. People don't club like they used to even 15 years ago.

 

I think amenities is only part of the problem. I think it is the live, work, play concept.  I think it extremely

difficult to find 250+ tenants that want to live in that environment whereas every summer week-end nite

you are literally held hostage in your apartment as a zoo of drunkards are walking around your neighborhood.

And all of this at possibly some of the highest prices in town.  Thus the revolving door. It probably would be fun

for a brief period, but once you realize that you are continually broke you move out to a cheaper & quieter neighborhood. 

35 minutes ago, simplythis said:

Question: Is the construction of the Phase 3A on hold. Is seems an awful long time to build out 3-4 floors. We could have a half of a Lumen built out in 9months.

i do realize that the frame is constructed. Is the rest ongoing or onhold?

 

I don't know. It does seem to be taking a long time to get past the framing.

Not getting into the COVID convo here (only remotely related to the conversation).

 

I will say this though: while, yes I agree that there should be more amenities to make FEB a full “neighborhood”, I for the life of me do not understand the anti-entertainment district attitude among some here. Having clubs and bars is not a bad thing folks! Especially if you actually want your city to be attractive to people who like to go to clubs and bars lol. I don’t know how many times I’ve pointed out here how the nightlife or perceived nightlife of Cleveland has ramifications beyond just whether you like it or not. It may not be for you, and that’s fine. But you can’t call yourself a big city and not have an entertainment district. Without a thriving nightlife you’re just basically anytown USA or a big ass suburb. And I’m not interested in living in Anytown USA. And I know the people I deal with for work aren’t interested in it either. It matters. Now granted, COVID has everything on pause right now, but eventually we will bounce back. And FEB can be a neighborhood with both neighborhood amenities and a thriving nightlife. When people come from out of town and they ask to be taken to a hotspot, they aren’t talking about Constantinos lol. ??‍♂️

Well, the old FEB was an entertainment district with clubs and bars.  Yes, it was a little shabby, but perhaps they should have kept the old FEB mostly as it was and just replaced the seedy establishments with new ones.  

Edited August 3, 20204 yr by skiwest

1 minute ago, skiwest said:

Well, the old FEB was an entertainment district with clubs and bars.  Perhaps they should have kept the old FEB mostly as it was but just replaced the seedy establishments with new ones.  

That’s a fair argument. Some people agree with you. I was coming of age as the original FEB was dying out so I didn’t get a chance to experience it but you could be right 

It was our own version of Bourbon Street.  I use to hear that the Flats was the second most popular tourist destination in Ohio after Cedar Point.

24 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Well, the old FEB was an entertainment district with clubs and bars.  Yes, it was a little shabby, but perhaps they should have kept the old FEB mostly as it was and just replaced the seedy establishments with new ones.  

 

Seedy? The Flats weren't seedy. Even the Circus wasn't. It was a great, very Cleveland district.

Ok, it was gross. But we do have a thread for Flats memories.

4 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

That’s a fair argument. Some people agree with you. I was coming of age as the original FEB was dying out so I didn’t get a chance to experience it but you could be right 

The FEB of the 70s was seedy and shabby, but interesting.

 

It started to improve significantly in the mid-to-late 80s (with my favorite restaurant Sammy's) until its demise.

 

I agree, having an entertainment District is important for tourism and locals. As great as E. 4th Street and the Warehouse District are, FEB adds to the mix. For those living there though, they need more convenient retail options, even a convenience store (down the hill).

Edited August 3, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

shabby yes. seedy no. history yes. but let's move on back to redevelopment today before i get mad all over again about the needless loss of the most historic structures like kindlers and the first rockefeller building.

Progress!

 

Edited August 21, 20204 yr by urbanetics_

I'm so glad they were able to keep the boardwalk open while constructing them.

On 8/3/2020 at 7:24 PM, mrnyc said:

shabby yes. seedy no. history yes. but let's move on back to redevelopment today before i get mad all over again about the needless loss of the most historic structures like kindlers and the first rockefeller building.

In the 70s it was seedy!

Thanks for trying to revive a two week old off topic tangent.

^ Just happened to read the thread.

 

I do have other things going on in my life besides reading/commenting on the UO forums.

Edited August 23, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

60-year TIF apparently up for a vote in City Council:

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/flats-east-bank-project-seeks-rare-tif-extension-30-years-60

 

It's easy to see why Kennect has not gone forward. Can't say my heart is breaking for Wolstein et al., especially after reading that they are looking for public subsidy for the next increment of development.

My wife and I had a drink at Alley Cat's patio and that was great - masks in the restaurant and temperatures were taken upon entrance. However, our view overlooked Dante's.... that place has GOTTA be the Covid epicenter of Cleveland, or at least TownHall's rival. There were at least 200 people on their patio alone. 

August 24, 2020 02:22 PM 59 MINUTES AGO

Flats East Bank project seeks rare TIF extension — from 30 years to 60

 

The Flats East Bank in downtown Cleveland could be one of the first real estate projects in Ohio to take advantage of a recent change in state law that lengthened the potential lifespan of a key tax incentive for major developments.

 

...Wolstein said the Flats had been grappling with two unforeseen challenges long before the coronavirus pandemic walloped the hospitality industry and cast a hush over corporate offices.

 

In 2012, voters approved the first operating levy for the Cleveland schools in 16 years as part of a district-wide transformation plan. TIF agreements don't capture money from levies. That means the Flats project is taxed at its full value for purposes of the 15-mill school levy — a cost that Wolstein said has totaled roughly $15 million so far.

 

The second, smaller issue is that the developer expected the main Flats parking garage, which is open to the public and owned by the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, to be classified as tax-exempt property. That never happened. Wolstein and Port representatives have been in talks about the treatment of the garage for years, with no resolution.

 

MORE:

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/flats-east-bank-project-seeks-rare-tif-extension-30-years-60

46 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

It's easy to see why Kennect has not gone forward. Can't say my heart is breaking for Wolstein et al., especially after reading that they are looking for public subsidy for the next increment of development.

I would guess development would be near zero without public subsidy.  It’s possible an unwillingness to work with Wolstein on the 60 year TIF could signal to other developers this isn’t an easy place to do business, especially considering how vested Wolstein is here.

40 minutes ago, Dougal said:

60-year TIF apparently up for a vote in City Council:

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/flats-east-bank-project-seeks-rare-tif-extension-30-years-60

 

It's easy to see why Kennect has not gone forward. Can't say my heart is breaking for Wolstein et al., especially after reading that they are looking for public subsidy for the next increment of development.

 

Any new development in Greater Cleveland is going to require public subsidies, either directly or indirectly. Wolstein can't ask for new subsidies when he's having difficulty paying on his existing debts.

 

"It obviously is unhealthy to have these delinquencies," he acknowledged, "when we may need to go back to the well to some of these stakeholders for future phases."

I was ready to come out swinging against Wolstein's incompetence on this, but then the story does make a good point about the school levy increase. I didn't know TIFs worked that way in only covering the existing tax rate at the time they were implemented. I had always figured they would cover the rate no matter how much it ends up being in the course of the program. Also sounds like he's gotten a bad deal with paying taxes on the parking garage, despite it being publicly owned (that makes zero sense at all to me). I can see how all of that could mess up the numbers quite a bit from what they planned out originally. Sounds to me like the public has gotten more out of this project than we agreed to, which is great. 60 years total for it still sounds like a bit too much. 

54 minutes ago, PoshSteve said:

I was ready to come out swinging against Wolstein's incompetence on this, but then the story does make a good point about the school levy increase. I didn't know TIFs worked that way in only covering the existing tax rate at the time they were implemented. I had always figured they would cover the rate no matter how much it ends up being in the course of the program.

Don't most leases have tax-escalators written into them at the beginning? "The tenant agrees that rent shall be increased to cover any tax increase ... etc." The ones I've been party to have.

 

I probably misread the article to indicate that Wolstein would be requesting some new kind of subsidy. I've no problem with the usual ones available to all developers.

 

 

I have to think that the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic has simply escalated FEB woes. Restaurants, bars and nightclubs that aren't generating revenue can't reliably pay their rent. Compound that with unemployed tenants who also have difficulty paying rent and soon the landlord is also in a pickle with their stakeholders.

Edited August 25, 20204 yr by Frmr CLEder

13 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

I was ready to come out swinging against Wolstein's incompetence on this, but then the story does make a good point about the school levy increase. I didn't know TIFs worked that way in only covering the existing tax rate at the time they were implemented. I had always figured they would cover the rate no matter how much it ends up being in the course of the program. Also sounds like he's gotten a bad deal with paying taxes on the parking garage, despite it being publicly owned (that makes zero sense at all to me). I can see how all of that could mess up the numbers quite a bit from what they planned out originally. Sounds to me like the public has gotten more out of this project than we agreed to, which is great. 60 years total for it still sounds like a bit too much. 

The Cleveland - Cuyahoga County Port Authority provided approximately $ 110 Million Dollars of financing for the $ 250 Million Dollar first phase of the Flats East Bank development. 

 

And so they own that property as collateral until the lease bonds are paid off.

Edited August 25, 20204 yr by Larry1962

6 hours ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I have to think that the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic has simply escalated FEB woes. Restaurants, bars and nightclubs that aren't generating revenue can't reliably pay their rent. Compound that with unemployed tenants who also have difficulty paying rent and soon the landlord is also in a pickle with their stakeholders.

 

It's hurt the Aloft hotel which is the subject of Fitch's loans of concern. I mentioned that in an article last spring and that it hasn't been a strong performer before the pandemic. But if what @YABO713 experienced is common (see the prior page of this thread), then at least some of the restaurants are doing well.