Here's another article on the project.  Kind of a long read that is short on details..

 

A Second Chance

Learning from past mistakes, developers and the city of Cleveland are working to revive the Flats.

 

Sara Lepro

[email protected] 

Rustom Khouri bought his first piece of property in the Flats in 1986. He was one of many developers at the forefront of revitalizing the historically industrial site into an entertainment district.

 

"We believed it would have a national draw," says Khouri, president and CEO of Carnegie Management Group, a Westlake-based commercial real estate development company that owns property on the East Bank. "For a long time, that was the case."

 

During its heyday of the 1980s and 1990s, the Flats pulsated with bars, nightclubs and restaurants dotting both banks of the Cuyahoga River.

 

More at www.inside-business.com 

This is the single, key sentence in the whole article... leads me to believe this one, at least partially, might get done:

 

The city has agreed to contribute between $15 million and $20 million to the project over several years, and the state has allotted $3 million of its 2005 capital budget toward the project.

 

 

 

 

To make a long story short, is this going to hapen or not?

The tone has always seemed to be that it will get down.  The city has agreed to fund it and the state has already given money.  I wouldn't think that they would give cash to something that they  doubted would happen.  I wish that we would hear a timeframe for this project. 

What is the project.  Is there a specific architect involved, is there a site plan, are there tenents?  For a project that has already received funding, and as much as it has, I would have expected to see something by now.

I would assume that once some anchor tenants have signed on that we would hear some names.  The fact that we haven't heard anything must mean that negotiations are ongoing.  Of course the city and state money must be contingent on it happening.  In order to show the potential tenants that it will happen, I am sure that the goverment must demonstrate first that they will put up the cash.

 

All the articles seem optimistic, or, as if its a foregone conclusion that the project will happen.  I'll believe it when I see it.  That said, I do have my hopes up.

This isn't a specific project rendering, but a slide from the Lakefront Plan that shows something like what might happen here.  Look to the far right of the picture, the buildings grouped around a grass oval.

 

The article is great...very optimistic...and I like to hear that kind of talk!  It's refreshing!  This has been one of the most talked about projects that I can think of over the past year or so that would actually MAKE SENSE.  Screw the convention center...this is the stuff that makes cities livable.  Real neighborhoods that connect to other real neighborhoods.

 

I'm also glad to read that Stonebridge is being hailed as a success and a sign of things to come.  Partnerships and cohesive vision are invaluable and if the public and private sides of things continue to work together like this, then we might see more creative, unique places like the Superior Viaduct come into the picture.

MGD,

 

Corna, one of the two partners on Stonebridge project, is the dad of a kid who went to wildcat high during my years.  It sounds great that there is such open dialogue amongst the west siders.  Hopefully, they will continue building residential on that side of the river. 

I could just see the city shutting this down because the plan interferes with shifting Rt 2. 

I don't think that the bridge portion of Rt. 2 is shifting. 

Shifting the bridge would make the projection extremely expensive, am I wrong? 

 

Where will Route 2 begin to change its path through downtown?  Will it stil be elevated through the WHD?

I don't think that part of the project has been decided yet. One proposal is to have the lanes come down off the Cuyahoga Valley bridge to the level of city streets, before crossing West 3rd, and then angle its way over the tracks to the current alignment east of Browns Stadium. Another is to leave it just the way it is through the Warehouse District. I don't care for that. There may be more options using some other combinations but I'm not aware of what they might be.

 

KJP

I agree with you, KJP.  It is imposing to look up and see a highway bridge blocking the view of the port and the lake from Wests 6th and 9th.  I hope they lower it.  As I am engineerically-challenged, I don't understand how it would be done.

I hope the city gets some input in what happens with the redevelopment of the Flats.  It is, in my opinion, Cleveland's most unique asset, and the city needs to do the best job it can to help it fulfill its potential.  Stonebridge, while gorgeous on the outside, seemed to fall short (at least to me) when I actually took a look at an apartment there.  It was just too sterile.  The Flats needs to keep its funky feel, and there are so many great buildings down there, a mix of new buildings and redeveloped ones would really be amazing. 

 

Does anyone else feel like the parking lot bridging the Warehouse District and Public Square is a better spot for the type of development being proposed for the Flats? Something similar to Block E in Minneapolis, if anyone is familiar?  It also seems like the Flats needs more residential development than the current plan offers, as well as more hotels. 

 

It is so close to the Rapid, which can take businessmen/women to Public Square and the north end of the financial district, that it seems a no-brainer for a number of small, cool hotels mixed in with a ton of housing (similar to South Beach, but with a Cleveland flavor, maybe we could get more marina slips at the north end of the flats and near Whiskey Island to compensate for the fact that there's not a beautiful beach)  With this kind of traffic, the retail (not to mention dining and nightlife options) aspect would take care of itself.

 

However, I don't want to look a gift horse in the mouth.  If they are going to get something down there started, I am all for it.  I just hope that the infrastructure being put in place for this development will be able to accomodate future growth as well.

Ewoops,

 

I agree with you. I fear that this project has too much retail and commercial located in an area that is too far from Public Square.  The giant parking lot would be a much better location.  It would draw the office crowd and the residential crowd.  I don't see folks wanting to walk down into and out of the Flats just to patronize the grocer and bookstore.  We'll see. I'll take the project anyday, but I think that it is not optimally located.  If there was more residential going into the Flats, I would feel better. But, I don't think that 300+ is enough for that area.

I agree with you wimwar.  They will need a ton of residential in the Flats to support what they have proposed.  The people in the WHD are getting the retail they need right now for their everyday needs.  Therefore, I don't see the WHD residents walking down the hill to support the proposed retail in the Flats.  I think it will turn into a situation we had 5 to 10 years ago.  Both districts thriving and one hanging on in the long run.  Back to my point however, if they do incorporate enough residential in the Flats project and slightly downsize the commercial, we could see two thriving districts for years to come that feed off of eachother.

ok, first on the parking lots between public square and the whd, we all know those have issues of their own with owners sitting on them until who knows when.  And I think we all agree that the Flats are a district unique to Cleveland and can really become our signature residential quarter in the downtown area.  So, building housing is a key element to this, but what's keeping people away right now is a critical shortage of amenities.  if this project can push the amenities quotient up OVER what the district supports right now, then the residential development will follow because the demand for housing will push it! 

 

Ewoops, I like the mention of a boutique hotel down there as well.  If this is going to be a signature residential quarter, a boutique hotel will fit in very well.  And I know there are lots of people who look for this type of option first when they're visiting a city for pleasure or for business...they want a more unique, creative space that will put them right in the center of a real neighborhood, not just in the CBD.  love it!

A boutique hotel or even a hostel would be a cool addition to the flats.  I like the idea floated (pun intended) awhile back of using the Mather as a hostel.  That would go over extra well if the Mather were moored somewhere in the Flats.  Isn't there a slip that isn't used any more behind Nautica?  Or is it still in use?

 

Unfortunately, I don't think that the Flats is the place for the sort of development that has been proposed.  Even with more residential development down there to give it a neighborhood base, it doesn't have good enough access for the non-neighborhood residents that the sorts of retail they are proposing will require to be successful.  And I don't think that the retail they are proposing is unique enough to bring people in from more easily accessed alternatives.  I'd much rather see a bookstore or theatre go along Euclid somewhere.  Of course, its not my project, my land, my money.  Whatever.

 

BTW, this is the same developer who is building a strip mall with loading docks that have some of the nicest views in Northeast Ohio.  Makes me wonder about there decision making process.

The flats still has the general reputation of an entertainment district so that should draw people.  The WHD is literally spilling over into the flats, especially if District Park comes back online.  (By the way, steel prices are starting to ebb down)

I think there will be enough people, and this may be a great shot in the arm for people to take another look at opening restaurants in the flats.

Seriously, and why can't we have two bookstores downtown???  Really, I think that once developers and retailers see how much public money is going into downtown development and how much of an emphasis there is on residential growth, they'll be lining up to get in on the action!  Or at least, that's how I see it...

MDG,

 

There was an article in Crains this week about how a developer backed out of buying the Reserve Square apartment building because it had just been released that Cleveland was the poorest big city.  There are many reasons why national chains will drag their feet before jumping on the downtown band wagon.  Reputation is definitely one of them. I think that eventually we could handle two large book stores, but not now.  Sometimes, I wish we could fast forward a decade and see what developments actually take place.

kind of like in Sim City?

Exactly.

I can't find the topic, but I remember reading that the port authority was looking into buying up WHD lots to squeeze out other lot owners.  Looks like Cleveland has had this idea going for a while. Below is an excerpt from Bruce Blog in late 2003

 

Plans are in the works for the development of a new city park in the Flats known as Canal Basin Park, located just west of where Forest City wanted to build a convention center. First, the Cleveland Waterfront Coalition, the nonprofit that fought to save two of the giant Hulett ore unloaders, is conducting an engineering study to see if a parcel of land at the river’s edge is suitable to support the Huletts. The land, just west of the Carter Road Bridge, is owned by businessman Mike Miller, who tore down an old B&O railroad station and paved it over for parking.

 

The city really wants a park there and an achievable green space initiative that it can get a win on (one that is easier or more achievable than Whiskey Island) and that Campbell administration can take credit for. So, the city surrounded Miller with parking and lowered their rates to effectively squeeze his parking operation out—which seems to be working—he can’t fill his lot even charging $1 a day.The CWC is spending some considerable money to test the soil to see if the riverbank land could support the tonnage of the Huletts and to assess the market value of the land in order to make Miller a competitive offer.

 

sounds unfair, but i like it!

Interesting interview from Crains Cleveland, it mentions this project.

 

 

Engineering a new Cleveland

Few companies have had their hands in as many Northeast Ohio projects as engineering, design and architecture company URS Corp.

 

The company, led in Cleveland by 44-year-old lifelong Northeast Ohioan Gary Hribar, has done design work on Gund Arena, Jacobs Field, Cleveland Browns Stadium, Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, and widening of State Route 91 in Mayfield Village.

 

Mr. Hribar, a 13-year veteran with URS, took the reins of the company’s Cleveland office late last year, after serving an apprenticeship under Bill Laubscher, who led the office since 1995.

 

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com

now its over 200 million....??

Shit, atleast this project is starting. I am really interested in seeing what they are planning on building. I am excited to see that there is going to be a residential component to this project though.

I find it interesting that they said the residential component would be large.  I wonder if they have changed their focus since we last heard about these plans.  It seemed that the commercial aspect was more important then.

well, maybe the steel prices are factoring into it.  Also, plastic components have increased along with the price of oil.  I really hope the project has expanded, but it may be just the cost of materials

Take a look at Penton. Penton was a company that moved downtown into the Bond Court building and should be a thriving company, but has fallen on tough times for whatever reason.

 

Sorry for the aside.  From a 10-year Penton employee, I should mention that Penton has always been downtown (we used to own the Penton Press in Berea, too).  Before moving into the old Bond Court Building, we were in the Diamond Building.  We've also been in the old Penton Plaza (near Perk Park, now renamed something else) and in the Rockefeller Bldg. many years ago.

 

Penton got in trouble because we bought up a bunch of Internet-type publications and trade shows right before the Internet bubble burst, and we also invested heavily in trade shows, and then 9-11 made everyone want to stay home.  Double whammy.  The company would be doing fine, except we have over $300 million in debt with nothing to show for it.  Our ex-CEO made a lot of dumb moves, thank goodness he's gone now!  Hopefully, in a few years, we will be a much stronger company, if we can refinance our debt.

 

 

glad to hear it Paul, that interview kinda bummed me out

RE the Crain article:  Everyone has a viewpoint, but I wouldn't assume that an engineer is necessarily any better informed about the city's economic condition than any other person.  Interesting observations, but take them with a grain of salt.

Well, finally we are going to hear about this proposed project.  This should give us something positive to talk about..  :yap:  :clap:

 

Flats project to be unveiled

 

By BRANDON GLENN

 

Plans are set to be unveiled Monday, May 16, for a new $200 million real estate project on the East Bank of Cleveland’s Flats.

 

A statement released this afternoon from public relations company Lesic & Camper Communications LLC announced Monday’s news conference, but provided few details. According to the statement, the project “represents the largest private sector investment in Cleveland since 1988.”

 

More at http://crainscleveland.com/news.cms?newsId=3355

 

wow, some very good news! mayday you have a lunch appointment, bring camera!!!

oh awesome

 

is that the full article?

Yep. It is the full article.  I am hoping that they tell Crains before Monday so that the story will be in next week's edition.  They always post the new edition at midnight Sunday night.

...Which is why I'm always up till 1:00 Monday morning!  Ok, just kidding, I'm always up till 1:00 AM.

$230 million Flats plan picks up speed

Thursday, May 12, 2005

 

Christopher Montgomery

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Backers of a long-discussed revitalization plan for the east bank of the Flats will kick off a campaign next week to gain support for the $230 million project. Public financing, a major question about the development in the past, appears to be falling into place.

 

Developer Scott Wolstein is proposing a mixed-use development composed of 300 housing units - split evenly between condominiums and apartments - and commercial components that could include a multiplex theater, grocery store, bookstore and other retail.

 

 

More at http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business/111589061235222.xml&coll=2

 

Ignorant question:

Knowing where this development is, can there be a way to incorporate the waterfront line?

 

By the way, the corporate head of IT has told just told me that I am one of the top 25 abusers of the internet in the company in the world.  So I may participate less, at least during the day.  :-(

I hate to be the pessimistic one but isnt 300 units pretty skimpy?  3000 would be a bit more like it.

lol punch what a super superlative... btw isnt if funny how this started out as 170 million then 200 and now 230 as reported by the PD??  Maybe when its near completion we will have a multi billion dollar investment.

:clap:    :clap:

 

lets pray there is only a small parking lot included.  we dont need more parking spaces/lots downtown.

 

What is this, the third reincarnation of the flats?  Second since 1983?

I think that the waterfront line dissects the project.  Doesn't Wolstein own the land between main avenue and west 10th.  I know that long ago they had plans to turn that mega-lot into a parking garage. 

 

I really like that there will be public boardwalk.  I would hope that it could someday stretch down to settlers landing.  If done well, that would certainly improve public access to the waterfront.  I am excited to see the plans.

Ferrari,

 

I agree with you about the units.  But, maybe it makes sense with the development as planned.  I would hope for more, but 150 condos is a very healthy amount.

I was kind of puzzeled by the amount of residential. For $230 million I thought there would be more. There must be a lot of office, and commercial planned. This is great news for Cleveland, hopefully it blends in with the WHD nicely.

"wow, some very good news! mayday you have a lunch appointment, bring camera!!!"

 

Um, excuse me but did it ever occur to anyone that I might have a life? 

 

Just kidding, of course I don't have a life (sad but true) so I will do my best to be there!

 

Folks as far as the residential count - well, the Bingham has a little over 300 units spread over 12 enormous floors. So take the Bingham and flatten it to say, 3 or 4 stories but spread it out to accomodate the same total of units. That covers a lot of space if you ask me.

How much did Pinnacle end ip costing for comparison reasons?  Then we can predict the size ans scope of this project and its relationship to amount of units.

Yeah, 300 units isn't that considerable, but there's already so much residential down there and not as much commercial/retail diversity.  So, commercial focus is ok by me!  And spinoff residential will surely follow once this one gets moving.  You can bet on it!

 

I'm stoked...