I really thought we'd see Whole Foods and/or Trader Joe's in one of these projects.  Hopefully we do!

Proposed Heinens, hmm, first thing I've heard about that, but maybe I just wasn't paying close enough attention.

 

I missed them specifically saying Heinens, but when reading those articlesa month (?) ago about Corna and Wolstein being in Vegas together for a development convention, in their plans they did have space reserved for a full service grocery store.

 

That would be a huge boost in growing downtown as a viable living area.

I really thought we'd see Whole Foods and/or Trader Joe's in one of these projects.  Hopefully we do!

 

I like the fact that we are including "local" businesses in the mix.  Shows that local business leaders believe in the project.   

 

Heinens has high standards and is proven local business.  this gives them a leg up on a business with no local track record.  Current Heinens customers looking to relocate downtown already know the brand.  Makes for a good plan.  In addition, Heinens doesn't have one urban location and them moving into the city sends a huge message to suburbanites.

It seems to me that a Heinen's in the FEB would be a) too large for that location, which is somewhat out-of-the-way in terms of access to a broader customer base and b) would kill Constantino's. 

 

I would think that a Trader Joe's or another 10,000 sf grocery could thrive in that market and wouldn't hurt Constantino's to the point that their demise would be a near certainty.

 

Also, this is not rocket science and it seems a bit messed up to me that the City would be subsidizing two projects like this (Bingham and FEB), yet will be cannibalizing one with the other. 

I've heard that the Heinens will be about the size of Dave's in Ohio City. 

 

Regarding the death of Constantino's, I wonder if the hill will keep folks up in the WHD.. I

 

If Stark is able to add a bunch of residents in the WHD, then I could see Constantinos and Heinens surviving. Constantino's would need to further adapt to find a niche that Heinens wouldnt fill (movie rentals, etc). But then again, who knows what Stark has up his sleeve.

I've heard that the Heinens will be about the size of Dave's in Ohio City. 

 

Regarding the death of Constantino's, I wonder if the hill will keep folks up in the WHD.. I

 

If Stark is able to add a bunch of residents in the WHD, then I could see Constantinos and Heinens surviving. Constantino's would need to further adapt to find a niche that Heinens wouldnt fill (movie rentals, etc). But then again, who knows what Stark has up his sleeve.

 

Thats what I was thinking.  I believe there could be room for both.

It seems to me that a Heinen's in the FEB would be a) too large for that location, which is somewhat out-of-the-way in terms of access to a broader customer base and b) would kill Constantino's. 

 

I would think that a Trader Joe's or another 10,000 sf grocery could thrive in that market and wouldn't hurt Constantino's to the point that their demise would be a near certainty.

 

Also, this is not rocket science and it seems a bit messed up to me that the City would be subsidizing two projects like this (Bingham and FEB), yet will be cannibalizing one with the other. 

 

Those were pretty much my thoughts as well.  I don't see a grocery store as big as Heinen's being necessary or prudent for the FEB.

The Heinen's they just built in Hudson is quite small (compared to their other stores) and has a prepared food focus.  Maybe the model for a downtown store.

 

Found it interesting that Judge Corrigan and Wolstein's mouthpiece say there have been discussions with Heinen's while Heinen's spokeperson denies any negotiations.  Obviously something he was told to say but he does look like an idiot in doing so.

 

As far as competition...isn't this America?

^If it were pure competition!  My qualm is not with one grocery store seeing an opportunity and going for it, perhaps at the cost of another business.  My issue is with the public sector subsidizing both projects. 

 

I agree with 3231.  Constantino's may have to find a new niche.  I certainly think they're in a better location because of the hill and the connectivity to the rest of the CBD.  Which is part of why I don't know about Heinen's opening up a OC Dave's sized (35,000 sf) supermarket down on Old (New) River Road.

I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

 

As for Heinens, I wonder if the developer is going to treat it as a loss leader to draw residents to his apartments.  Will it really have the parking to draw a customer base large enough to support it otherwise?  Anyone who mentions the waterfront line in response to that question will be slapped.

I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

 

As for Heinens, I wonder if the developer is going to treat it as a loss leader to draw residents to his apartments.  Will it really have the parking to draw a customer base large enough to support it otherwise?  Anyone who mentions the waterfront line in response to that question will be slapped.

 

The waterfront line!  What?!

 

I think constantino's could still serve the southern Warehouse District folks and stay open 24 hours.  They will really have to know the area and its customers.  I mean we have two grocery stores over here.  Also, in Harlem there is a large pathmark, well now two, and still smaller grocery stores so that people have options. 

 

I don't think we should start a "constantino's death spiral" thread just yet.

 

Heinens a traditional grocery store that stays open until 9 pm or so, Constantinos we're here for you 24-7.  there's room for everyone.  In addition, Stark wouldn't need to build a grocery store.

I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

 

I was wondering about that, too. It would be cool to have a small grocer more on the east side of downtown. If Heinen's opens up as rumored, it might be a better option for Constantino's than closing entirely, if it should ever come to that, I guess.

I don't think we should start a "constantino's death spiral" thread just yet.

 

For sure.  I hope this Heinens comes on line soon...but Constantino's shouldn't feel any breathing on the back of it's neck for a while.

OK, what I really want to know is when are we going to see some design renderings (so we can really go crazy).  At least let us know who are some of the site planners and architects (as I believe Wolstein said there were going to be multiple architects).

Yeah. I'd also love to know what the other retail elements will be.

Remember apparently he's already signed on a Bernie Kosar steak House and a movie theater.

As for Heinens, I wonder if the developer is going to treat it as a loss leader to draw residents to his apartments.

 

Rent for supermarkets in shopping centers are already consistent with the loss-leader market; if I recall correctly, somewhere in the neighborhood of half the cost per square foot as other stores in the same center.  So, it would be pretty much understood that Wolstein would take a loss in rent from Heinen's only to recoup it from the other parts of the development.  By the bye, this is also why you hardly ever see new free-standing supermarkets; it's so much cheaper for a chain to lease from a developer.

Remember apparently he's already signed on a Bernie Kosar steak House and a movie theater.

 

Bernie sounds locked in, but I'm still waiting for something more solid on the movie theater...

When I was living in Stonebridge, I never really thought of Constantino's as a grocery store. I thought of it more as a high end convenience store. I would grocery shop at Dave's, but regularly buy prepared food/beer/wine/etc from Constantino's. If I needed just an item or 2 I would run over there. Had there been a Heinen's, I still would have gone to Constantino's for the same reason.

 

My friend that lives in Bingham is the same way. It seemed that everytime I was over there, there was a steady flow of people between Bingham and Constantino's.

I wonder if a new niche for Constantino's could be a move to lower Euclid or Prospect to serve the office population and the E4th and Gateway residents.  Seems unlikely after all the money that was spent to build out their current space, but would be a pretty nice addition to the other side of downtown.

I was wondering about that, too. It would be cool to have a small grocer more on the east side of downtown. If Heinen's opens up as rumored, it might be a better option for Constantino's than closing entirely, if it should ever come to that, I guess.

Can't Constantinos and Dave's on Payne fill that need?  I dont get why people don't seem to aknowledge Daves-esp the eastside one. between the Market and Daves (OC) and the same  wine gaps that superceleb mentioned that can be meet at Constantino's, I wonder why the cry for Heinens remains so strong.  If I am ever out that way (heinens in rocky river), the one thing I end up really needing that I can't find around here is fresh, inexpensive flowers. 

Let's not forget Reserve Square Market.  It is being expanded to 30,000 ft, and at that size will be larger than the OC Dave's.

Can't Constantinos and Dave's on Payne fill that need?  I dont get why people don't seem to aknowledge Daves-esp the eastside one. between the Market and Daves (OC) and the same  wine gaps that superceleb mentioned that can be meet at Constantino's, I wonder why the cry for Heinens remains so strong.  If I am ever out that way (heinens in rocky river), the one thing I end up really needing that I can't find around here is fresh, inexpensive flowers. 

 

I think the niche people have in mind (or at least I did) is one in close walking distance to the Gateway/4th St. hood.  Dave's is a bit far east to fill that slot and I'd think Constantino's is a bit far west (esp. in Nov-March).  Maybe I'm just lazy though.

 

The Reserve Square market on the other hand might already fill this need, but perhaps there would still be a market for the high end/prepared stuff of Constantinos if it is located a little more centrally?  We shall see.  I hope.

 

Slightly off topic and already covered in years past, but speaking of Dave's, the OC one is bugging me more and more.  Would have been so much cooler to build something on its roof (or put the parking up there), or at the very least make it's rear end a little more friendly to the otherwise great intersection where Light Bistro is.  Sorry.  Back to FEB.  I too am eager to see some more renderings.

Crain's:

 

$1M loan from county to help clean Flats lot

By JAY MILLER

 

4:30 am, September 10, 2007

 

The Flats East Bank development has won a $1 million Cuyahoga County brownfield loan to clean up the former Shaia’s parking lot that runs between Front Street and Main Avenue.

 

The county will forgive $450,000 of the 6% loan if the developer, the Wolstein Group, completes the environmental cleanup to Ohio EPA standards.

Any news?

Come to think of it, yes. According to the latest issue of the Flats Oxbow Association newsletter, the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District during the week of Sept. 17 approved spending $8 million from a recent bond issue for sewer improvements associated with the FEB.

 

The newsletter read: "Wolstein will construct the sewer project within a construction agreement with the Port Authority, acting as agent for the sewer district. The sewer district will approve design and construction. New sewer systems are needed, explained a sewer district document of Sept. 12, because 'the project will completely realign Old River Road north of the Main Avenue Bridge, and will also realign the west end of Front Avenue. The city plans to completely level the entire area, re-grade it, and construct new roads with all new utilities, including separate sanitary and storm sewers.'

 

"A recommended alternative developed by the sewer district would jump the cost to $9 million. It would move the present pump station on Old River Road northeast along Front Avenue to the corner of Front and West 10th St. It would require complete reconstruction of the new pump station."

 

At least that's what the Flats Oxbow Association's newsletter says.

With the ED, demolition and other movement towards this project, it really sounds to be a go... unlike Pesht which is becoming "iffy".  The difference is, in its present state, the surface lots in the WHD have earning value.... FEB has none until Wolstein re-develops.

 

The only thing that I wonder is whether a design has been approved.  I have seen pictures, but each of them seem like different concepts. 

 

Scale has got to be an issue as well.  Is Wolstein going to do this project in one big construction phase or will it be split up into several phases??

^the current design has yet to be released to the public. Its similar to the last one that we saw, but a bit better (imho).

The city plans to completely level the entire area, re-grade it,

 

Wow

"....all new utilities, including separate sanitary and storm sewers."

 

 

Thank goodness. Another big step toward removing raw sewage from our drinking water.

 

^the current design has yet to be released to the public. Its similar to the last one that we saw, but a bit better (imho).

 

When might the design be released?

^no idea.

"....all new utilities, including separate sanitary and storm sewers."

 

 

Thank goodness. Another big step toward removing raw sewage from our drinking water.

 

 

Older (pre-1900) sewer systems often had the two flows in the same pipes and dumped directly into rivers, lakes or oceans without treatment. Boston's still does when there's overflow during storms. I'm pretty sure the storm and sanitary sewers in the Flats goes to a treatment plant before the flow was dumped back into Lake Erie, else why have the old pumping station in the Flats to get the flow back up the hill into the city? If there was no pumping station, the flow would simply dump into the river.

 

Even until recent decades, sanitary and storm sewer lines were placed in the same trench, so if there was a heavy thunderstorm, water risked leaking into the sanitary sewers and would back up into basements and toilets, causing flooding in homes. Today, the practice is to bury the sanitary and sewer lines in separate trenches. I suspect that's what's going to happen in the Flats.

pd:

 

Feds reject proposed Flats building

Saturday, October 13, 2007

Stephen Koff

Plain Dealer Bureau Chief

 

Washington- The federal government does not want to use a new privately owned office building proposed for the Flats, saying on Friday it will be cheaper to retrofit the Anthony J. Celebrezze Federal Building and keep most of its payroll workers there.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

 

 

 

^Wow, the GSA folks sound like a bunch of clowns.

The GSA, like many government agencies, has their criteria du jour. That doesn't make them any less the clown, however.

Im confused if this is good or bad.  I would think that it would be more important for them to fill up the Fed. building than to occupy a building on an island on the FEB.  Maybe another case of this being an ingredient to make the FEB project feasable/doable for Wolstein..?

^... or does GSA now simply believe that retrofitting Celebrezze, as opposed to entering a new FEB building where rapid transit directly feeds it with more people, and hence more potential terrorists, is the lesser of 2 financial and logistical evils?

Good. I don't want to see the FEB clogged up with 9-5 offices anyway. They're a recipe for a ghost town.

After seeing the amount of use / lack of use of the Waterfront Rapid extension.. I really hope that incorporating the Rapid into the central design is a focus.. I just hope it isn't ignore and therefore its potential wasted.

does that mean the proposed northern end building within where the rapid loops around is now a dead issue?

That was a horrible place for an office building anyways.

Scope of planned Flats development grows

 

By JAY MILLER

 

2:20 pm, October 16, 2007

 

The developers of the proposed Flats East Bank mixed-use project today unveiled updated plans that highlight the prospect of additional office and residential space.

 

Adam Fishman, a principal of Fairmount Properties LLC, which is partnering with the Wolstein Group on the riverfront project, said during Tuesday morning’s Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority board meeting that the project now might include two, 400,000-square-foot office buildings instead of one and that the number of housing units planned for the project has risen to between 500 and 600 from 350 as more units are planned for mid-rise buildings than for townhouses.

 

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com

^ Where is that from? Any updated renderings?

$400 million!

18 months!

 

 

holy cr*p, this project keeps getting better

... with the caveat that the housing component would appear over the next five to eight years. Still, good news. I wonder if this is the result of specifically secured tenants or the realizations that we might be moving toward a Pesht v. Flats East Bank type v. Jacobs tower situation.

Crains. Isn't one of the law firms whose lease is up, Wolstein's law firm?

^Don't think so.  If Wolstein is a lawyer, I don't think he still practices.

^Don't think so.  If Wolstein is a lawyer, I don't think he still practices.

 

i thought the post was referring to the law firm that wolstein is using for his real estate activities, namely Baker, whose lease is up.

^Oops.  Sorry zippo, good question.

what is going on in the flats?? all of a sudden there is no news on it does anyone have anything??