So, if people are going to move into a new 21 story building in 2011, they better get cracking on construction.

 

With Stonebridge and FEB, is the way to do a development in Cleveland start small(ish) and have it grow, rather than plan a huge development first (like Pesht)?

I personally think that if Stark wants to attract companies that are looking for new space now, he has to be more flexible. Otherwise, he has no right to get grumpy when he loses potential tenants to other competing interests. He's not the only developer in the pool.

 

Although Wolstein and Starks plans will both benefit Cleveland, and that is part of both developers' goals, at the end of the day, they want to make money.

I was under the impression that Lighthouse Landing was supposed to line the other (north) side of Front Street.  If anything I thought that the proposed site for the Eaton "campus" was going to throw a monkey wrench.  It is hard to tell by the drawings KJP has posted above.... but the north of Front Street concept is clearly contemplated by the rendering MayDay provided here - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=97396

 

Edit - come to think about it, it appears that these are not the same projects.

 

 

The graphic you showed was of a Jim Kassouf project that, when he submitted it, appeared highly suspect as a way to get more money from Wolstein for his properties. It was located on the north side of Front Street -- Lighthouse Landing was to be on the south side of Front. Kassouf's "project" was discussed briefly here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,8774.msg96219.html#msg96219

 

Here's a graphic I pieced together back when Kassouf proposed his Cuyahoga Lakefront Condos. It shows his project in relation to Lighthouse Landing, Flats East Bank and what was proposed to be the DFAS Center inside the Waterfront Line loop....

 

Stark wants transformational projects. He not interested in doing anything piecemeal.

A few years back, he was basically proposing tearing down half of downtown Akron, to

Build a center housing all of the Art's intuitions on the North side of downtown. Obviously it didn't work out, but it was a very dramatic.

 

As much as I'm rooting for Stark, it just doesn't seem possible to have both Stark and Wolstein’s project located so close together. It's probably a forgone conclusion, that Wolstein with large subsidies from the City, County, and state has one the horse race.

 

I don't understand why Stark hasn't linked up with the counties need for office space.  Even with the E.9th fiasco, the need hasn't gone away. Together they could transform the whole area.

 

Great point about the county's office situation.

 

As for the Wolstein-Stark comparison, Wolstein has the benefit of a one-year head start on Stark. Look at the first pages of this thread vs. the first pages of the Stark-Pesht thread to see the differences. While the Stark thread started in March 2005, he really didn't get going on his project until early 2006.

I agree KJP. I just wonder how patient Stark is. The downtown projects seem much more complicated, and require subsidies of all sorts, requiring long lead times. Even the KD group is asking for a bridge loan for 15mil from the county to carry the Amertrust site for the next two years until they can line up a hotel to locate there.

 

Stark hasn't applied for anything that I know of. I wonder if this is the reason companies favor FEB. Maybe he just can't hit the price points. I think the FEB is still a out of the way for most companies to be  located, but maybe that's why they like the location,

 

Have you had any sense of where things stand with Stark at this point?

Thanks for the clarification KJP.... I am trying to catch up on all this stuff.... always was interested just never knew there was such an informative source as urbanohio.

 

I, for one, think that Pesht and FEB can coexist and even feed off one another.  It really would be one big neighborhood that could grow even more over the next couple decades with the port moving.  IMHO, it is the perfect location for a true "neighborhood" in the CBD (and yes... I do consider FEB to be in the CBD... sorry Bob).

The unofficial tenant score card

 

I would also add KeyBank's check processing offices, which faced an expiring lease at the old May Co. building. But of course they ended up at the old Higbee's.

 

Cimperman told me there are two more large firms downtown that are facing lease expirations by 2013, but he couldn't remember them (they would make for a total of eight firms on the hunt for new space).

I agree KJP. I just wonder how patient Stark is. The downtown projects seem much more complicated, and require subsidies of all sorts, requiring long lead times. 

 

I don't think any site is as complicated as Flats East Bank. It requires all new sewers and waterlines, a pumping station to get the sewage up the hill, new streets where none had existed, new electric and phone utilities, TIF agreements with the city, loan agreements with the city, port authority agreement with Wolstein, port authority purchase offers and eminent domain actions, negotiations with the Shaia family to incorporate their property/development vision into the the plan and, thus, a re-visioning of the land use plan. And that's just the stuff I know about and can remember!

 

Yes, Stark is seeking public subsidies. And he wants a TIF to redo the infrastructure, including a major streetscape and put electric/phone utilities below street level. But he doesn't have to do much in the way of property acquisitions or building demolitions. He may be tearing up streets for newer, prettier ones, but they would be put where the old ones are. He doesn't have to tear out major sewer and water lines then put in new ones. He has a bit of an advantage by building office uses where office uses once existed.

 

Stark's big disadvantage is making the numbers work. Those WHD parking lots command a tremendous value and bring in substantial revenues. To make their development work will require some serious density and/or some lucrative rents. Both are problematic in this economy (both locally and nationally), and certainly on the housing side of Stark's vision. Only if he can offer to an office user a more competitive price, or amenities for the price, compared to what Wolstein offers will Stark win some tenants.

 

Stark needs a tenant ASAP, and a big one, to make his project happen sooner rather than later. In my opinion, he needs Ernst & Young -- which has the most employees of the remaining free agents (I'm assuming Eaton is going to FEB). If Stark can sign E&Y, I'll bet you'll soon see a major retailer or two announce they'll locate in the ground floor of E&Y's building. If that happens, Stark may be able to nail down a hotel or a residential building. His project could snowball if those pieces fall into place.

 

If he gets just one of the smaller free agents, I suspect Stark will announce a vastly scaled-back first phase, with future phases having start dates of "N/A."

^Do you think that letter "worst kind of sprawl" or whatever burned any bridges?

These "crappy rails" would directly serve Eaton's property with it's own station.

 

i was bein facetious........see the comments on cleveland.com

 

the news about tucker ellis is good, i just hope that wolstein gets this right. this project will be for the next 50+ yrs so we're stuck with crap we're stuck with it until we're dead. i just dont have much faith in cleveland to get anything right now.

 

 

i think stark's project would benefit downtown more than the FEB

^Do you think that letter "worst kind of sprawl" or whatever burned any bridges?

 

Probably with Wolstein, his lifelong friend. He has some fence-mending to do there. But I doubt with any city officials or potential tenants (at least I would hope not). I would think they would care more about the bottom line and how the project will affect them. Stark isn't the first egotistical, eccentric developer the city and any potential have had to deal with -- not by a longshot.

Just trying to confirm rumors...I heard Marous Brothers are the master CM. anyone hear anything?

I can't wait for construction to start.  I believe that this project will further enhance the demand for more riverfront housing, retail and business space along the river.  When this project is completed, I would bet that more plans come along for Scranton Peninsula, but that's another story.

Just trying to confirm rumors...I heard Marous Brothers are the master CM. anyone hear anything?

 

Actually, I have heard Whiting Turner, who makes sense.  They would take on a CM role.  I could conceivably see Marous maybe building the Hienen's or something along those lines.  As for CM the whole project, not really.  I really do have alot of confidence that Whiting Turner had won a contract for the project however.  They are big in with the Clinic along with Progressive Insurance in the Cleveland area.

I don't know if Eaton is a lock yet. I had lunch with a friend on Fri who has inside knowledge of the Port Authority board discussions. His thoughts were 1) If Eaton goes to FEB, it's not guaranteed that the location will be where the discussion has centered now (inside the loop) and 2) Eaton is exploring all options, including moving out of the Cleveland area.

 

Now, this is all unconfirmed but I thought I'd throw it out here and see if anyone has heard similar rumblings.

E & Y isn't confirmed yet, but it appears that they are headed to the Flats.

i know it's still early, but wolstein better buck up and make feb architecturally significant. he's not going to attract any major tenants if his "flats campus" looks like some off the shelf suburban lifestyle mall. the waterfront setting is just begging for continued uniqueness, not conformity.

 

i'm just sayin.

 

please, please, please bring on the dutch architects!

 

not my area of expertise, but  I am worried it is shaping up to have more to do with a handful of people making the best $ they can, not what we and the next generation (if it is not demolished by then) will have to look at.

please, please, please bring on the dutch architects!

 

Somehow I doubt that a parade of Dutch starchitects with their inflated egos would result in a great urban neighborhood.  It would make for a hell of a photospread in the design rags, though.

i know it's still early, but wolstein better buck up and make feb architecturally significant. he's not going to attract any major tenants if his "flats campus" looks like some off the shelf suburban lifestyle mall. the waterfront setting is just begging for continued uniqueness, not conformity.

 

i'm just sayin.

 

please, please, please bring on the dutch architects!

 

 

While the architecture of the individual buildings is very important, i think that that street grids, the boardwalks, the street widths, and the open space along the river are what will make this a good urban space.

....And the number of public doorways to the large number of ground-floor uses in those office buildings, In My Humble Urban Opinion.

Mrnyc, totally agree.  Bring on anybody (Dutch or not) that is going to harness the identity of the Flats and transform it into an authentic,  contemporary solution that marks this time in the City.  NBBJ & RTKL certainly aren't going to do it.  They have a track record of following the not always knowledgeble direction of the developer, instead of informing them of the possiblities that a site can hold.

 

It is true that contemporary architecture has not always succeeded in creating excellent urban spaces, but it should not be a reason to be afraid of it.  The cities and projects you mentioned above (Maple Heights, Erieview)were not exactly done by the best designers at the time.

That is why we have to demand only the best thinkers and designers to create these contemporary spaces. 

If well done, the 2 could coexist and create a more dynamic space, as well as please all parties involved.

Oh for f#ck's sake, people!

 

 

 

 

Supreme HBIC, not to challenge authority, but I thought those post about the architecture of the project were relevent to the discussion of the FEB.

 

As well as who we can become involved, so the project is not only successful but how it will be viewed for our generation and generations to come.

Discussing architectural aesthetics and theory and how it directly relates to FEB is one thing. This thread was degenerating into some sort of nebulous circlejerk amongst the resident armchair critics. But thanks for your input.

Uh-oh, wait till lunch is over...

 

I think what he was saying is that this is the thread for Flats East Bank, so turning the discussion into whether or not Dutch architects can build nice urban neighborhoods is a topic that belongs in a Dutch architects thread.  It started off as a slight tangent, but quickly tengentized, as tangents so often do.  (I'm plenty guilty of this sometimes, too.)

 

So anyways, as the only Cleveland rep that couldn't make it to lunch today I will say, "back on topic" please.

"I think what he was saying is that this is the thread for Flats East Bank, so turning the discussion into whether or not Dutch architects can build nice urban neighborhoods is a topic that belongs in a Dutch architects thread.  It started off as a slight tangent, but quickly tengentized, as tangents so often do."

 

Thanks jam, that's exactly what I meant. And thanks for the chuckle, math.

 

ok, but if those ^ horrific suburban off the shelf lifestyle mall outtake renderings are "on topic" the feb is in a lot of trouble. those are so un-urban and unattractive they make my skin crawl.  :whip: 

 

this massive project is begging for the dutch or something to save it from a rushed, bland conformity.

 

the flats is/was an utterly unique urban setting. that lazy (lack of) vision? have you been to wpb,fl ? then you've aready been there -- ditto crocker park/cols arena district/the green, etc. blah.

 

i can only hope wolstein gets some real architects and makes feb cleveland instead of anywheresville, usa :-P

From this week's Scene

---

 

 

 

Developer plans to keep East Bank nightlife alive with Roc Bar

By D.X. Ferris

Published: February 27, 2008

 

Even after developer Scott Wolstein's $230 million project turns the north end of the Flats into a mixed-used neighborhood, nightlife will continue on the East Bank with a new club owned by Telecom Acquisition Corp., a company that has two liquor licenses, a parking lot, and six buildings south of the Shoreway bridge.

 

Roc Bar (1220 Old River Road) is located on the former site of the short-lived Club Atlantis. It's the smaller building adjacent to Scripts, the cavernous club that used to be Kaos. Open Thursday through Saturday, the venue hosts soul, hard rock, and metal DJ nights with spinners like Suspiria and Kristoff. It's also welcoming local bands (Keratoma) and smaller national shows (Jaclyn Bradley, from VH1's Breaking Bonaduce).

 

"It's a great, intimate room," says Keratoma's Tom Shaffner. "Just a bar and stage. It's not like the Flats of old, where you'd have to do five laps around the river to try to find a spot to park for 10 bucks. You can pull right up to the club and park right in front."

 

Alt-rock vets Sponge will play the club's first major show on Friday, March 7.

 

"We're testing the concept, to see if the Flats is viable as an entertainment district," says Telecom partner Michael Tricarichi. "What we're not doing is running a little mom-and-pop place and putting no money into it and letting it fall apart. [Club owners didn't] spend any money down here [before]. That just sucked the life out of the [area], until it came down."

 

Tricarichi's company also owns the neighboring hip-hop club Scripts and the building that housed the popular Odeon. The developer plans to open new restaurants in the adjacent River's Edge and Morrison buildings. He says the new clubs won't compete with the city's other big concert venues. Their final formats will depend on developments on the other end of the street.

 

"I don't think the Odeon is going to survive," says Tricarichi. "We're probably going to take down it and [former restaurant Buffalo Wild Wings next door], and build something nice. We need to figure out a niche to be compatible with what happens at the other end of the street."

I heard residential next to loud night clubs is not popular in Cleveland. Did anyone tell them this?

^^Should this be discussed here instead?

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,9984.0.html

today's pd...

 

Final demolition approved for Flats project

Posted by Michelle Jarboe March 07, 2008 13:48PM

Categories: Real estate

 

Steven Litt/The Plain Dealer

An overhead view of developer Scott Wolstein's planned project on the east bank of the Flats.City planners today approved demolition permits for the remaining buildings that stand in the way of a $500 million project on the east bank of the Flats.

 

continued at>>>>>

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/03/final_demolition_approved_for.html

 

Litt also has a brief blog entry about the project, including another graphic:

 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2008/03/_the_cleveland_city_planning.html#more

Here is a larger image of the above:

Yeah, just a little bit larger.  :-o

Just a bit!  :laugh: I'll try and fix it.

 

Fixed - Sorry!

OK, I hope part of the image that is "not current" includes that little bit of Beachwood located in the WFL loop!

I hope not either b/c I think I will throw up.

It's not the DAFS building from the other renderings, so possibly it is the proposed “Eaton Corporate Campus.”

We'll have to wait and see for the corporate campus... no way we should allow city planning to let something like that pass for our lakefront (since it seems at least SOMETIMES more than others they are missing a spine).

head of city planning big recipient of developer campaign donations. So I have an opinion of where this will go-suburban campus on priceless lakefront, signed sealed and delivered  :-(

I really like the physical layout of the Flats East Bank concept -- south of the freight railroad tracks. There are all kinds of funky nooks and crannies in there, with a fluid-like street pattern and a pedestrian "close" or two similar to those in Europe. I can see myself getting lost in there and enjoying it.

 

However, what is conceptually proposed for the enlarged Waterfront Line loop has got to be one of the most unimaginative settings I think I've ever seen. Geez, give me 30 minutes and I could come up with something a helluva lot more interesting and site-appropriate than that. And if Eaton wants only what is proposed in that view, then maybe they should get out of downtown. F-ck em.

I really like the physical layout of the Flats East Bank concept -- south of the freight railroad tracks. There are all kinds of funky nooks and crannies in there, with a fluid-like street pattern and a pedestrian "close" or two similar to those in Europe. I can see myself getting lost in there and enjoying it.

 

However, what is conceptually proposed for the enlarged Waterfront Line loop has got to be one of the most unimaginative settings I think I've ever seen. Geez, give me 30 minutes and I could come up with something a helluva lot more interesting and site-appropriate than that. And if Eaton wants only what is proposed in that view, then maybe they should get out of downtown. F-ck em.

 

I agree with the KJP here on liking the "nooks and cranies" it seems to create.  The parking is also mostly out of site, which is very nice.  I look forward to seeing what the actual buildings will look like here in the next month.  And the Fortress of Eaton?--I think it's only missing walls.

head of city planning big recipient of developer campaign donations. So I have an opinion of where this will go-suburban campus on priceless lakefront, signed sealed and delivered  :-(

 

I'm sorry but, huh?  What do you mean by this?

head of city planning big recipient of developer campaign donations. So I have an opinion of where this will go-suburban campus on priceless lakefront, signed sealed and delivered  :-(

 

I'm sorry but, huh?  What do you mean by this?

 

you give you get. http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/dcdev/forms/C00442483/319942/sa/ALL

 

you give you get. http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/dcdev/forms/C00442483/319942/sa/ALL

 

Ahh, I though you were talking about Bob Brown, Director of the City Planning Commission.

Wow, not one, but TWO roundabouts?  I can already hear traffic engineering preparing their rebuttal...

 

I know we're looking at very little of what's been done here and apparently it's outdated (so why show it?), so I'm not going to comment too much.  I agree, though, that what is shown inside the WFL loop looks to be inappropriate... lots of lawn and parking.  Still so speculative, though.  A question about the area south of the RR... is all the parking that is shown actually open to the air or are structures to be build on top?  It's hard to tell, since the images a blurry and the text is unreadable.  Any insights?

 

Otherwise, I guess we're going to have to wait for the 28th!

It looks to be all garages except for the lot in the NE corner of the main project area, and the lot in the NE corner of the WFL loop.  I saying that because of shadows that are put into the plan to indicate buildings and the red texts which say "Building 1,2,etc.".