$11.44 million for 8.8 acres of downtown waterfront property seems like a steal.

 

I'm sure the fact that it's surrounded by concrete bunkers and railroad tracks had something to do with it.

If they are going to pay to move the WFL anyway, why not do it right? Doesn't look like that is going to happen. I hope I am wrong but this "corporate campus" sure seems like it will cut off access to the land to the north that the port wants to develop into a "mixed-use lakefront neighborhood"

there's plenty of land around the WFL loop that would allow them to bring the loop down to surface grade quicker and create a more open area for development.  Not doing this now will be a huge mistake for a long time to come.  But I'm sure the people who are working on this full-time have already figured that out!

I think people need to actually see the site - failing that, go to Google maps, select West 10th and Front Avenue and walk along the path on West 10th near the Waterfront Line. That'll give you a better sense of how walled-off this area is. It's not just the Waterfront Line either, there's a working rail line along the southern border of the site. So take a site that's 75% encircled by concrete walls (the red line) that range anywhere from four to fifteen (twenty?) feet high, and then put a fully functioning railroad at street level (the blue line). Thus, the solution looks to be pedestrian bridges (the green lines) for now. If anyone has a better idea, as always I welcome your designs!

 

I was going to do a drawing, but it'll have to be later.  My point is that you can extend the WFL further north and bring it down to grade before making the loop east and south.  that way, you can have an at-grade crossing that would allow you to enter the site on the north and perhaps the east off of W. 9th.  That would leave only the west and south sides walled in.

I would say what can be done depends on how much money can be spent for the WFL redesign/relocation. Probably not enough to do it right.

 

I like the idea of bringing the WFL down to grade sooner rather than elevated as it is now. How about extending W. 10th via an over or underpass? How does a corporate campus that can only be accessed via auto help bring vibrancy back to this area. You know the Eaton office workers are not going to walk across ped bridges to frequent establishments in the new FEB neighborhood, or very few of them will anyway.

I like the idea of bringing the WFL down to grade sooner rather than elevated as it is now. How about extending W. 10th via an over or underpass? How does a corporate campus that can only be accessed via auto help bring vibrancy back to this area. You know the Eaton office workers are not going to walk across ped bridges to frequent establishments in the new FEB neighborhood, or very few of them will anyway.

????

It seems a people are making a mountain out of a molehill re the WFL.  Why can’t Eaton simply build up, around and even and over it, if need be?  WFL’s elevated right of way is narrow… Chicago’s done this numerous times w/ the L.  Why Level WFL and create yet another grade crossing?  You guys are losing sight of how potentially crowded this area will be once all these buildings are built.  Why mix trains, pedestrians, and cars even more?  Eaton is going to have to work around the busy freight rail through the area anyway - it would be an engineering feat to depress these tracks b/c a short distance away, they must rise to cross the river.  The WFL should remain elevated as it is.  If Wolstein wants to pay to widen the loop for the building, OK, but leveling it and creating another street crossing?  Where’s the logic?

^ I'm only throwing these ideas out due to the fact that I see a suburban style corporate campus in the works for a significant portion of the port land north of the tracks that's all. As I've said before, I hope I'm wrong when the final plan is put on the table.

 

I'm envisioning/hoping for a real waterfront nab (something like Portland, Maine for example) here in Cleveland -- not stadiums, Rock HOFs or other touristy stuff like Navy Pier but a real neighborhood. Seeing the Eaton part of the FEB plan makes me fear the opportunity will once again slip by.

^Gotcha... I'm a little concerned we (collectively, not you redbrick) are potentially twisting around our very valuable transp system, the WFL, to conform to a corporate office building which, while important, is more on the periphery of importance to the mainly residential/retail aspect that brought Wolstein's FEB plan into being...

 

I get somewhat suspicious, in this car-obsessed town when entities, particularly private ones, alter rail transit options - it almost always is to the detriment of transit (like Stokes’ Fed Courthouse cutting off any possibility for Amtrak/commuter rail to reenter Tower City).  The WFL has not once in newspaper articles been mentioned as a benefit or advantage to FEB, but merely as an annoyance that’s in the way of development -- a development that, if not watched, could morph into a Beachwood office park.  Progress...?  This why I say, keep the WFL loop as is (as much as possible) and make Eaton more vertical than horizontal.

 

I don't think it's an issue of keeping Eaton vertical OR horizontal!  Height has a miniscule effect on the vibrancy of a city.  Renaissance Center in Detroit is pretty tall and didn't/doesn't it act as a magnet--drawing a lot of activity that could otherwise be on the streets in the CBD? Lisbon and Amsterdam are around the same size as CLE+ they have a very active streetscape yet a nonexistent skyline--at least by American standards. Houston or Amsterdam...hmmm.... you choose!  The issue w/ Eaton and FEB is how it relates to the neighborhood and how it's relocation/growth can positively affect downtown-esp FEB.

 

I'm hoping Wolstein and co. chose Eaton not only b/c they needed some "meat" to solidify the project, but also b/c they want an organization who can best make FEB a great success!  An urban success!

The issue w/ Eaton and FEB is how it relates to the neighborhood and how it's relocation/growth can positively affect downtown-esp FEB.

 

More specifically is how each building's street-level setting encourages pedestrianism. I don't see how Eaton's setting and proposed use of the site promotes pedestrian interaction with its future surroundings.

I'll probably get strung up for saying this... but for the most part I don't give a crap what they build inside the loop.  First off, this site is a complete anamoly. It's almost amazing they can find people that want to be there.  Please take another look at that pic Mayday posted.  You are surrounded by concrete and active rail.  If someone wants to move in there, and replace that that cracked asphault with 2 buildings some strips of lawn and a parking lot cool with me.  And I think it's a little unfair to claim eaton office workers will never cross the bridge to the FEB.  I mean sure it's an engineering firm and there are probably some Joe Avon Lake types (no offense anyone from Avon Lake) that will drive his suburban down I-90, down west 9th off the ramp to his parking lot, think his new office building is "cool" and never leave it... but my guess is there are probably some younger employees or even older for that matter that might be a little more progressive and like being a fifty foot walk across a bridge away from some shops and restaurants.  hell, there may even be a person or two who appreciates the fact that they could practically live across the street from work and do it.  There may even be some people who see the value in taking rail in and having it drop them off right next to that bridge (that's actually one thing i really liked it looks like the "eaton station" would be situated on the FEB side of the pedestrian bridge and not just a stop in the rear where it only serves eaton.  I don't know, again, this place is an anamoly and I just don't see how whatever they build there really in any way affects future port development... I mean there's a 20 foot concrete wall keeping this area from the rest of the port.  I'm just happy there is going to be some use to it.

The issue w/ Eaton and FEB is how it relates to the neighborhood and how it's relocation/growth can positively affect downtown-esp FEB.

 

More specifically is how each building's street-level setting encourages pedestrianism. I don't see how Eaton's setting and proposed use of the site promotes pedestrian interaction with its future surroundings.

 

  Sorry I don't even see how there could be any real street level activization at this site.  Flip the tables, why would anyone visiting FEB ever want to cross an active rail yard to get in the loop site?  I mean short of having "the coolest attraction on earth" in this location. No one is going to want to go in there.  However if you have a large enough company dumped in there, I am sure there are some people that are going to want to come out and check out the new "in" neighborhood.

^^McC, based on prior posts on this topic, lots of us agree with you.  The reconstruction of the loop might change the equation a bit, but I still don't see it altering the isolation of the site much.

I know, I'm just starting to see a lot of "Eaton is going to ruin the FEB and all future port development" talk again... and i just don't get it.

It's just not adding to the density the way it would if Eaton were built in the actual street footprint of FEB.  I can apperciate the fact that they are taking up a garbage site, but that's really the only advantage.

I don't disagree, but then the loop site would sit vacant and decrepit.  Again I'm actually kind of happy that the loop site is being built out at all... it will look worlds better.

 

(and personally I'm trying to figure out why a company the size of with the growth potential of Eaton isn't on the horn with jacobs adding one last signature tower to PS... and yet i digress)

McC, My last comment was less about Eaton about more about adding some specifics to cle2032's comments. Look at my prior comments on Eaton -- at first I was furious, but mellowed after pondering it further.

 

But if they really want to relocate the Waterfront Line, I think there's some more creative things they could do with that which would help spur more development on the port's property. I know I've put together a street layout of one idea, but I can't remember if I posted it here.

Here it is....

 

^I think that would be awesome... I just don't think they are looking to alter the loop all that much.

McCleveland, I'm in total agreement with you, but I'm still concerned about how this is going to turn out because I haven't seen any actual renderings yet.  If Eaton wants to move the loop further out they could end up making it too wide and eating up a bunch of lakefront property for no reason.  I would be ecstatic if I had just heard that they want to located withing the loop, but I'm very nervous about the fact that they want to make it bigger.  I'm waiting to see how much bigger the loop becomes before I make any decisions on this. 

it doesn't look all that different to me... maybe slightly deeper.

it doesn't look all that different to me... maybe slightly deeper.

 

I think it all depends on what grade KJP has envisioned for the WFL tracks.

Why couldn't it just be underground.  All the work could be done while construction is taking place. 

^ I would imagine because doing something as grand as KJP is envisioning would cost a lot more money and take a lot more time (desing work included) and would also require that you do all the major planning for the port area street grid... and I don't think that sort of time exists to get done in time for Eaton's move.  That's just my educated guess though. They are thinking in terms of flats east bank, not north coast community.  You could say that's shortsighted but at the same time, everyone around here always bitches (well a lot anyway) that stuff is always talked about and never done... and if we have to wait any longer for this project i might lose it.

I am a bit surprised by many of the recent posts here.

 

The port land (including the Eaton campus footprint) is really Cleveland's one shot at getting it right as far as a waterfront neighborhood -- downtown proper anyway and assuming Burke stays as is. None of it is a "garbage" site. Active rail lines are dealt with all the time in redevelopment. Columbus dealt with one when they built their original convention center/Hyatt. Seattle did it with Safeco field. To use that as an excuse for piss-poor land use/planning on some of the most valuable real estate in Cleveland when there is essentially a blank slate to work with is a shame.

 

Sorry, unlike KJP, I haven't mellowed on this yet...

I didn't mean to set off another hailstorm about the Eaton project. But something about this whole thing just doesn't satisfy me. I feel like the design of this whole neighborhood is a bit mediocre in my opinion, even lazy. It's not terrible, but it's not really something awesome and beautiful, which is what this development is a total opportunity to achieve.

 

I'm just disappointed. Why can't design be pushed further in Cleveland?? Why can't architects or planners work WITH the contraints of the WFL instead of just slapping a suburban office complex inside the loop? I think there have to be ways of getting around this that preserve the urban integrity of the rest of the neighborhood. It just frustrates me that these people aren't willing to try something out of the box. I think fear of the weird or unusual is a huge pervasive mentality in Cleveland design, and I think it just spawns such uninteresting, bland stuff all the time.

 

I really wish there was an open design forum for this area. Let a bunch of different designers from all over come up with their plans, as crazy as they might even be, and scale back from there.

hey, does everyone remember that time that Wolstein posted all of the final renderings?

The WFL could be realigned as shown in my diagram without building the street grid as part of it. The grid could and probably should be added later.

 

As for the gradient of the WFL you can tell a bit by the shadow I've added on one part near the river, as well as by the at-grade crossings of the three streets near the docks at the existing land elevation. And, as the WFL turns south to go under West 3rd, the street grid is rising to go up and over the freight railroad tracks. So the street north of and parallel to the freight tracks is going over the WFL near West 3rd.

Red brick:  We can criticize the design of the FEB project all we want, but in regards to the Loop site, let's not forget the only thing the Port is looking to sell right now is that odd anomoly of land known as the loop site.  Let's not confuse the FEB project with the port relocation and North Coast "neighborhood".  And unless we want to wait 5 more years to get this started while they work out the intracacies of the planning of the port land, I think the loop site is what the loop site is.  Actually in many ways I think it could be kind of a cool oddity when the whole thing is finished out... riding by on one side you'll see this corporation headquarters nestled inbetween all these rail lines... and out the other you see a vibrant residential neighborhood.  I don't think it's such a bad thing.  And again, I don't think there's any way to merge the port planning with the flats planning at this point unless we want to shut the whole thing down.  Remember other than one off the cuff rendering a few years back, there has been zero planning done for the port site.  I'm not willing to wait that long to get the flats project going.  And I am holding back on full criticism of the flats architecture until it is released.  In the mean time, I really don't care much what happens inside the loop because short of redoing the entire thing and tying it in to a port property that hasn't been developed it is what it is.

^^^#10 would have to change quite a bit to get me off my soapbox :-o

 

^I'm concerned about connectivity -- certainly the Eaton part of FEB could be designed with connectivity and continuity to surrounding neighborhoods in mind, even those not yet on the drawing board...

 

And here's some images:

 

 

 

Word.

I think at this point it's really kick eaton out of the project and leave the loop site undeveloped, possibly forever or at least until the port masterplan is done... or move forward.  There really is no inbetween.

I didn't mean to set off another hailstorm about the Eaton project. But something about this whole thing just doesn't satisfy me. I feel like the design of this whole neighborhood is a bit mediocre in my opinion, even lazy. It's not terrible, but it's not really something awesome and beautiful, which is what this development is a total opportunity to achieve.

 

I'm just disappointed. Why can't design be pushed further in Cleveland?? Why can't architects or planners work WITH the contraints of the WFL instead of just slapping a suburban office complex inside the loop? I think there have to be ways of getting around this that preserve the urban integrity of the rest of the neighborhood. It just frustrates me that these people aren't willing to try something out of the box. I think fear of the weird or unusual is a huge pervasive mentality in Cleveland design, and I think it just spawns such uninteresting, bland stuff all the time.

 

I really wish there was an open design forum for this area. Let a bunch of different designers from all over come up with their plans, as crazy as they might even be, and scale back from there.

 

I think we see lazy design in Cleveland because most projects in Cleveland are designed as super blocks with one developer and not much competition amongst Developers i.e K&D Westbank, Wolstien Eastbank, Stark WHD, Zaremba AD.

^One developer and usually one mediocre architect or, even if a decent architect, the discount team.  That's why the Triangle project is so exciting..

 

As for Eaton: I think we can all agree KJP's plans for the WFL reconstruction are better, but per McCleveland's general point, who's going to pay to reconstruct W9th?  Who's going to pay for the even bigger expansion of the loop?  Certainly not Eaton.  If we have to wait for State or Federal funding, then it's goodbye Eaton.

 

I'm frankly surprised Eaton is willing to pay for the the loop site expansion- their site plan seems kind of...inefficient- couldn't they stack the office part on top of the parking and deck and cram it into the existing site?  Less greenspace right outside the windows, but who cares- the views are going to be awesome in every direction.  Maybe stacking office on parking would cost even more than loop reconstruction.

 

By the way, why does the WFL stay elevated after crossing the RR tracks?  Why wasn't it built to come back down to earth so the future station could be at grade?  Any thoughts?

  If we have to wait for State or Federal funding, then it's goodbye Eaton.

 

Please help me understand. Dumb that statement down for me.  I'm not being snarky, but I don't get it.

What KJP is showing and what everyone seems to be clamoring for is integrating the port site with the FEB site. 

 

1.  There is currently NO masterplan of how they even want to lay out the street grid let alone how they want to build out the port.

2.  Even if that were currently in place.  Who is going to pay for the infastructure work?  Cleveland is already pretty strapped paying for the infastructure at FEB and getting money together for E. 12th and potentially Pesht.  And if the city can't pay for it, who?  Private developers won't, I'm sure ODOT can't at this point.

3.  If we wait for all the above items to come together how long will it take? And Eaton wants in their new place by the end of 2011... do you think they are going to wait around for 5-7 years while all the above falls into place?

 

Again, I think people are really confusing the port land with the FEB project.  Right now the only land the port is allowing to be used is the loop site.  And Eaton wants to go there.  So it's either do it as envisioned (and this is the only place in downtown i would be willing to give up to this type of development because of it's limitations)... Or you tell eaton to go F themselves, and say the land is too valuable for potential future developments pending on the port masterplan.  And they run off to Independence.  There really isn't much of a middle ground here.

^^I know it's really unsatisfying to kowtow to corporate interests (god knows it's probably allowed a lot of crap design over the years), but I just think you risk alienating one of the largest downtown employers if you tell them, "sorry guys, you can't build on this site in time to meet your  lease expiration date because it's not compatible with our 30 year port relocation plan."  Maybe they would just decide to move to another CBD building or to Stark, maybe they would move to Independence, but they certainly wouldn't be part of FEB (which, depending on where they do go, could be OK or bad).

 

McC, Can't you let us have our fun in redesigning the downtown lakefront? ;) If there ever was a blank slate in this city to play with, it's the lakefront!

Lots of time for that KJP.  If you look at the port area on google maps the loop site constitutes maybe 2-3% of the total overall land of the port.  I'm sure we'll be able to play armchair developers to our hearts content.

 

And I still think that as long as these buildings aren't your Chagrin Highlands style green reflective glass, but anything remotely interesting, not to mention it presents great opportunities for some cool pedstrian bridges... it could be kind of a cool little "island" when the whole thing is built out... especially when passing by on the train.  Actually the more I look at the overhead on google maps the more I think it would be kind of a neat quirk.

I still can not believe why any company would want their headquarters on that particular site.  The flats are relatively isolated to begin with and this site takes things even further toward isolation (solitary confinement?).  I guess the Eaton management thinks that it will prevent the employees from going out at lunch.  That would make them more productive.

 

I agree with an earlier post in that Eaton should be talking to the Jacobs to build a signature tower on Public Square.  This would be way more beneficial for the city.

I still can not believe why any company would want their headquarters on that particular site.  The flats are relatively isolated to begin with and this site takes things even further toward isolation (solitary confinement?).  I guess the Eaton management thinks that it will prevent the employees from going out at lunch.  That would make them more productive.

 

I agree with an earlier post in that Eaton should be talking to the Jacobs to build a signature tower on Public Square.  This would be way more beneficial for the city.

 

And how exactly would the company (that moves there) shareholders benefit?  A tall glass building does not (always) make for a more practical city. 

 

Are you of the mindset that thinks a new "tower" changes the image/perception of a city?

I still can not believe why any company would want their headquarters on that particular site.  The flats are relatively isolated to begin with and this site takes things even further toward isolation (solitary confinement?).  I guess the Eaton management thinks that it will prevent the employees from going out at lunch.  That would make them more productive.

 

I agree with an earlier post in that Eaton should be talking to the Jacobs to build a signature tower on Public Square.  This would be way more beneficial for the city.

 

And how exactly would the company (that moves there) shareholders benefit?  A tall glass building does not (always) make for a more practical city. 

 

I hate glass buildings and most modern architecture in general. Excessive glass eliminates any sort of mystique in what goes on privately inside the building. They're like our emotionally unstable friends, to the extent that often times they tell you way more than you ever wanted to know.

 

By the way, why does the WFL stay elevated after crossing the RR tracks?  Why wasn't it built to come back down to earth so the future station could be at grade?  Any thoughts?

 

I believe it is elevated to allow for a pedestrian passageway and/or street to allow connection to the building inside the loop, originally to be a new Great Lakes aquarium, and condo/townhouse development on the other side in the area now where the Port is.  Engineering-wise, it would be rather unpalatable to bring the WFL back to earth so abruptly, esp with the sharp turns that exist in so short a space.  People already joke WFL is like a rollercoaster as it is, imagine if ...

As for street/pedestrian activity generated by this structure?  I'm less worried about it as it's going to be a 9-to-5 office building where, after 6p, it'll be dead... around the time FEB should be heating up... Like I said, I'm glad this office building will be part of the mix.  I'm less worried about a ground level connection to WFL b/c, by dint of the busy railroad, the ingress and egress of this building, by foot, car and Rapid, must be elevated via ramps and 2nd floor plazas anyway.

I think this is an exciting project for downtown Cleveland.  This is a growing strong company thats intricately involved in the transportation industry.  I would expect it to be somewhat of a bold complex.  Does anyone know if architects have been picked for this or is it too early?

^Eaton is a very conservative company, and I expect a designer of that status will be expected selectde for their headquarters.

Site purchased for new park at end of trail

Trust for Public Land buys 1.43-acre parking lot in Flats area of Cleveland, then transfers it to city

By Bob Downing

Beacon Journal staff writer

Published on Thursday, Apr 17, 2008

 

The park in Cleveland that will be the northern end of the Ohio & Erie Canal Towpath Trail has moved closer to reality.

 

The Trust for Public Land on Wednesday purchased a 1.43-acre parking lot in the Flats area of Cleveland and then transferred the land to the city of Cleveland for the proposed Canal Basin Park.

 

More at http://www.ohio.com

^huzzah!

 

As a frequent biker/runner of the O&E Canal Towpath Trail, I am very happy to see the plan take one step closer to finally connecting the trail's current Harvard Road terminus with Lake Erie and the mouth of the Cuyahoga.  They are so close to making this happen.  All that remains really is a couple miles.

Emerald necklace?  How about Emerald Bling! 8-)