As others such as MGD has pointed out, I wish that a small boutique hotel could be a part of this project. 

^I think we need to wait for the convention center for more lodging to pop up.  Also, I do not think we should be in this position.  The flats should have been built up back in its heyday when it had a big name nationwide.  You would not even have to advertise for this developement or look for more money.  Hotels and residential would have been major cash back then.  But it went to hell, now we are stuck with a risky developement, that still may not happen,  that involves tearing buildings down that once brought in tons of money and tourism. 

I really like the idea of the boardwalk. I was just viewing the San Antonio picture thread that  showed the river walk, and I was really impressed by the number of people walking. I think that a boardwalk by this development would be a great way to lure residents, and tourists. Could you imagine living there, and being able to go out on any night and enjoy a great meal, do some shopping and then finish off the night by walking down by the river? That would be awesome. If this thing gets built, by 2015 I bet that entire corner of downtown is going to look totally different. I can not wait until this thread gets moved to the "completed projects" board.

"I think we need to wait for the convention center for more lodging to pop up."

 

I disagree...boutique hotels don't necessarily rely on convention center-type traffic to thrive.  They're more for the hip, young traveler who wants to hang out in real neighborhoods where real nightlife and residents can be found.  I know this is what I look for when I go out of town for a weekend getaway...boutique hotels and B&Bs.  I also know that folks in my company, which is NYC non-profit, travel to the midwest quite frequently for small meetings and site visits to their projects.  Places like KC, Cincinnati, Cleveland...mid-sized cities, filled with pockets of character. But if you were to just settle for an airport hotel or a big-time downtown hotel, you'd miss out on a lot of this.  My boss, in particular, is big on checking out the boutique hotels whenever she travels.  I think she likes supporting smaller scale businesses and definitely enjoys staying in more functional neighborhoods, rather than the financial CBD. 

 

I think a spinoff boutique hotel or one as a part of this project would do quite well.

... one note re the long time lag to completion (2009): that even after brownfield clearing, the PD article suggests sufficient street infrastructure -- water, sewers, electric -- must be significantly expanded/upgraded to support this kind of high density development of this project ... as opposed to the lighter needs of the mere part-time bars/restaurants along Old River Road,  and the warehouses/bars that preceded them... and that this upgrading, along with the reconfiguring of the streets, themselves, must be done/will take time, before the actual sites can be graded and buildings can rise. 

 

... makes sense.

 

well, it better be spectacular when it's finished...that's all I have to say!  4 years...sheesh

What?!  No one posted this yet???

 

Flats project draws praise, concern from City Council

Wednesday, May 18, 2005

Olivera Perkins

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Cleveland City Council members say Scott Wolstein's $225 million plan to redevelop the east bank of the Flats is a good one as long as it doesn't shortchange the schools and other neighborhood projects.

 

Wolstein presented the plan Tuesday to Council's Community and Economic Development Committee.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

One comment about the last sentence...I think with all the new residential in both neighborhoods and the distance between the two there can be demand for two theaters...and as I always say, provision of amenities will spur even more development, so these will both be great for their neighborhoods and their near surroundings!

oh yea ohio city/detroit shoreway can definately support its own along with the new downtown one.  they could probably even collaborate

"Councilman Zack Reed expressed concern about the financing district, saying the schools should get more than half of the taxes.

 

"How can we go to the residents and ask for a levy while at the same time say in the light of progress, we need to give this project 50 percent of the school taxes?" Reed said."

 

If I was Zack Reed, I'd be more worried about my recent DUI charge - oops! What would he suggest? Gee, let's not approve ANY investment - and let's not provide ANY incentive to developers until the schools have a 100% graduation rate? The revenue from this project is a drop in the bucket compared to the real needs of the schools. If he's THAT concerned about school funding, he needs to take a trip down I-71 and argue school funding issues on the level where real difference can be made.

Not to mention the fact that 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing.

Not to mention the fact that 50% of something is better than 0% of nothing.

 

AMEN!  You can say that again! 

 

If he wants to be upset about something be upset about "secret" meeting for a "lifestyle" center in a inconvienient area of the city when those stores could be constructed in current buildings/parking lots in downtown...but dont get my pressure up just yet this morning!  :x  :x

^Oh Steelyard Commons won't even be something as "nice" as a lifestyle center. We're talking a 'power center' along the lines of Macedonia Commons or Avon Commons - big boxes surrounded by seas of asphalt. I know Jane really didn't please a lot of people (myself included, a registered voter in the city of Cleveland) by going behind Council's back on this one.

^Oh Steelyard Commons won't even be something as "nice" as a lifestyle center. We're talking a 'power center' along the lines of Macedonia Commons or Avon Commons - big boxes surrounded by seas of asphalt. I know Jane really didn't please a lot of people (myself included, a registered voter in the city of Cleveland) by going behind Council's back on this one.

 

As another registered voter IN Cleveland, Jane got a piece of my mind at 3:45AM this morning.  Steelyard got my juices flowing and the email started flowing.   argh! :x

ARCHITECTURE

City ought to weigh Flats project design

Sunday, May 22, 2005

Developer Scott Wolstein's announcement last week that he wants to launch a sweeping redevelopment in the Flats along the East Bank of the Cuyahoga River was great news for Cleveland.

 

It would transform a row of seedy, dying bars and nightclubs north of the Main Avenue (Burton Memorial) Bridge into a 13-acre neighborhood intended to attract the young, smart, workers Cleveland needs to power the high-tech industries of the future.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

Yes, a thoughtful and on-point article by Mr. Litt.  This is on all of our minds!

Agreed, this is a little too suburbanish ( is that a word?) for the location...not that I don't want to see it happen an be successful.

By the way, of all the drawing board or proposed projects in Cle, which do you think is most important or would have the greatest impact.  There are a dozen or more currently being discussed in this forum.  Personally, I think if this project can persuade the Defense Finance jobs to stay in Cle, it would be the most crucial. 

Number one fantasy project would be Peter Lewis deciding that his company should move downtown with his several thousand employees.

How would everyone else rank these?

Agreed, this is a little too suburbanish ( is that a word?) for the location...not that I don't want to see it happen an be successful.

By the way, of all the drawing board or proposed projects in Cle, which do you think is most important or would have the greatest impact. There are a dozen or more currently being discussed in this forum. Personally, I think if this project can persuade the Defense Finance jobs to stay in Cle, it would be the most crucial.

Number one fantasy project would be Peter Lewis deciding that his company should move downtown with his several thousand employees.

How would everyone else rank these?

 

Without seeing any drawing or renderings lets see what they have offered.  I think they can still have Unique and architecually inspiring buildings even if not highrise.  the DFAS jobs would be great.

 

Progessive downtown would be progressive!!!  Jane and the county comm. should be kissing is a$$ to develop something downtown.  however, why aren't we talking to Sherwin Williams to stop hiding they're corporate name and build something on Public Sq (or other lot in downtown) and show some civic pride. 

 

Hell I wouldn't mind S-W slapping their name on the BP Building, but i would rather see that as a hotel!  Any tenant in the building could be moved to other first class office space downtown and this could be our "convention" sized hotel without building something new.

 

My wish is that we develop subway lines under our major avenues.  even if they only go 55/60 blocks initially

I like the design of the project for a few main reasons:

 

Many small streets that intersect.  This creates interesting places to walk.  There is always a new perspective at each corner. The current old river road suffers by being one long street with several uninspired older buildings (north of the bridge). 

 

The four-way intersection where there is a second floor setback.  The first floors are right on the street, but the upper levels are set back at the corners.  This will allow some much needed sunshine to flow into that space.

 

The walkways along the river.  No need to explain this.

 

The streets are perpendicular to the river. This allows some good views of the river even from a block or two inland.

 

The mini-amphitheater on the river.  Cleveland so much needs well-planned public spaces where people can gather. The Malls are great, but no one lives there or has any reason to pass through.  This amphitheater will give people a place to sit and watch as boats go by. 

 

Good placement of the bookstore.  To survive, it needs to be close to the warehouse district.  Being at that corner and adjacent to the rapid station gives it good visibility.  Also, the bookstore would be across from the art theater.  Good idea,  Movie crowds like to do things before or after a movie.  Smart people often like art flicks. Smart people like to browse bookstores.  This arrangement provides a good incentive to stick around the area for a longer amount of time. 

 

I hope to see this development spark some rehabs along the south stretch of old river road.  Could we please turn the large tool company's building (forgot the name) into condos. It is a building that screams for renovation.  All the windows are boarded up with some aluminium siding.  I wonder who is frying in architectural hell for that decision?  That street, with the old Watermark building, could be a great place for some pricey condos.  The only problem is the Odeon.  I don't know who would want to live next to that place. It can be very loud.

 

I would think that the smaller details of the buildings have yet to be determined.  Too early in the process.  I really like what they have presented.

See my post at

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1782.msg34736#msg34736

 

for a way to possibly link up downtown destinations by reworking the convention center plan.

 

KJP

   

Circus in the Flats sold

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

June 15. 2005 11:32AM

 

 

The sale of the Circus, an adult club in the Flats, likely adds a new hoop to jump through for the real estate developer planning to redo Old River Road as an upscale downtown neighborhood.

 

HDV Cleveland LLC, an out-of-town investor group associated with the 75-club Déjà Vu chain, acquired the Circus in the Flats on Tuesday, June 14, and plans to turn it into a Larry Flynt Hustler Club. The sale comes shortly after the Wolstein Group development concern announced plans to remake Old River north of Main Avenue as a new downtown neighborhood with condos, apartments and retail space.

 

More at

http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050615/FREE/50615001/1004&Profile=1004

 

 

 

 

what the *#@?!?!  this is ridiculous!  was he not approached by Wolstein about selling to him?  Is he just trying to muck things up?  and what is a chain doing buying this land with a proposal like this on the table???

Man, I was at the Circus a couple of years ago for my friend's bachelor party.  One of the strippers nearly tore his nipple off.  I don't think he was expecting to be flogged and beaten.

 

Anyway, back to the topic!

Its a great scam.  Buy a property with some supposed plans to invest a bunch in it, then claim that its worth alot because of the great plans you have.  All you really have to do is buy it and flip.  Your lawyers will do the rest.

Its a bit unsettling that a national chain would feel confident enough to buy into this area when it is slated to be demonished.

Spencer is the name on the marquee for the no-neck crowd sitting in the shadowy back room, if you follow me. For people of his cadre, it is more desireable to be feared than to be loved. The guy who owns some of the bars across the street is cut from the same cloth, er, silk shirts. This isn't going to be easy for Scott W.

 

Remember Ed Stinn Chevrolet in Fairview Park? That place sat empty for a decade because ol' Ed had debts to people who don't refinance unless your kneecaps are part of the deal.

 

KJP

A retired Cleveland firefighter, Mr. Spencer has moved to Naples, Fla., where he works on real estate investments. If his situation were different, he said, he would have liked to have been "a part of the redevelopment of the Flats."

 

Is that supposed to redeem him? That if he hadn't jumped ship and moved to Florida he would have done something more responsible??? What a load of crap.

wow... its almost comical

It is comical... read the writing on the wall... Wolstein's project isn't real.  It was released for political reasons.

Well I don't know about that. Wolstein does own a good chunk of the land down there, and site control is the most difficult thing about getting a development started.  That's not to say there aren't still issues to work out, but they've done a good chunk of the hard work already, and they have a good track record of getting things done.  This is just an example of some shysters getting in just ahead of what they think is going to be a good payday for them.  They can make trouble, but ultimately, they probably won't be enough to stop the project from going forward.

It is comical... read the writing on the wall... Wolstein's project isn't real. It was released for political reasons.

 

Ice Cream:  Boy are you a pessimist. Cleveland sure needs more of those.

 

I highly doubt it was released only for political reasons.  This has been in the works for a couple of years.  You don't spend years developing the idea, hire an architect, apply and get state money, lobby the city for infrastructure funds, have an out of state partner involved, spend many days presenting the plan at a Las Vegas convention to potential commercial tenants just so a mayor of Cleveland can present a false idea to better her chances of re-election.  I can understand that timing is politically motivated, but not the entire project concept.

Ice Cream: Boy are you a pessimist. Cleveland sure needs more of those.

 

You tell him Wimwar!

 

A city is only as great as the people who reside in it.  Cleveland is finally maturing and starting step out of the shadows of out coastal brethren.

 

We need people who give CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, get involved socially and politically and make a difference. 

I have to agree with wimwar - I have no doubt in my mind that the timing has political motivations. However, the legwork and effort that's gone into marshalling the proposals, financing, etc. - there's too much there to simply be a whim.

When you do own that much land you often spend significant amounts of money seeing what will work.  When in a public company it is practically required. But the plan has no specifics.  So much is still missing from it.  Normally a bit more detail is in order before you go and ask for public money.  He has neither land control nor the normal partners.  Then again...

 

If Wolstein can make it work I think it will be just what Cleveland needs.  I want it to work.  I want Mr. Wolstein to make gobs and gobs of money on the project so that other companies put their sweat and money into Cleveland.  I just don't think it looks like a real project at this stage.  Then again... Mr. Wolstein has made millions of dollars in real estate development, and I have not.

The East Bank project is very real.  Worry not about things like Spenser and a strip club.  The Supreme Court decision today allows for Cities like Cleveland, who view buildings or properties, such as our strip club here, that are in the way of Economic Development, to be taken through eminent domain, w/o a clear "public" purpose or blight designation.  In otherwords, for "just compensation", Cleveland can step in when the time is right and take the land then turn it over to Wolstein. 

I need to read the opinion, but this is a huge win for cities and developers.

Oh, they can take the land, it just might be a fight.  Getting the property will add to the cost of the project.

 

People wanted constructive criticism -- Lets look at what we know.

 

The project has gone from $170 million to $225 million in just a short time.  It does not sound like they nailed down their numbers.  A 32% increase in such a short time is troublesome.  Where will it stop?

 

But lets just look at the quick numbers where they stand now:

 

We have been told  that there is 250,000 feet of retail and entertainment.  Good square footage retail in town is about $25 a foot.  That can be expected to generate roughly $6,250,000.00.  On a 10% capitalization that means that the retail is worth about $62,500,00.00.  That makes the rest of the project $162,500,000.00.  That means that the residential at 330 units starts at roughly $500,000.00 each before any profit is made.  Stonebridge is the best comperable even though the units are much more reasonably priced.  Stonebridge's units have an absorption rate of roughly 3.5 units a month.  That means that the 330 units to be built will take almost 8 years before they are all sold.  That is a painfully long time because a lot of the money is going to have to be fronted before any profit is made.  Of course this is making things very simple.  There are a thousand other items, but it does show how this project is very bad without mega tax dollars.

 

This is a very tough project.  If Clevelanders want it to work, we are going to have to dig in our collective tax pockets to make it work.  Without lots of public help, Wolstein would be crazy to do the project.  A they are now, I do not think that the numbers work. 

 

This is a pioneer project.  I don' t think there are any comperable numbers that Mr. Wolstein can use to judge just how his project will go.  If it makes it, I think you will see other developers use his success to justify the numbers they have in their projects.  It could really be a boon to this city.  If it is for real, then I hope he makes it.

Well, the price tag is for the whole project including all of the infrastructure.  I think about $25M is already pledged from the gov't.

 

I think most of the residential units will be apartments, not condo's.  Much like how Stonebridge did it.

If there is one development company who knows retail, and who knows the East Bank of the Flats it is Wolstein's.

 

I think this project is a slam dunk to be made, especially after the supreme court decision.  The city, the port, the state and the developer are behind it and want to make it happen.

 

 

Besides the cost issues, I am betting Wolstein is counting on quicker absorption as the downtown condo market matures and solidifies and as the economy improves.  It's difficult to predict sales pace of a new market with little track record- one of the reasons financing can be difficult to get for inner city projects in the first place.  In these situations, the developer's rep is key.  It's even more critical than usual to have someone who's proven they can get it done, get it done right, and get it filled.

I think its about an even split between rental and condo.

The AP picked up the story.  I don't know if there's any new news in it (I didn't really read it) or if anyone wants to post it, but here it is:

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/12055790.htm?source=rss&channel=ohio_news

 

Stupid newspapers making me subscribe what utter BS...  but anyway here it is

 

Posted on Tue, Jul. 05, 2005 

 

 

 

Cleveland looking to revive Flats entertainment district

Deserted east-bank buildings could be demolished in $225 million project

By Thomas J. Sheeran

Associated Press

 

CLEVELAND - Backers of the riverfront Flats nightclub district, a premier regional attraction until drownings and rowdiness took a toll, hope a $225 million development and a shot at casino gambling will lead to its revival.

 

Carolina Martin, who grew up in the 1950s and used to walk from home to watch the ship traffic along the winding Cuyahoga River, thinks the mix of condominiums, bars, restaurants and offices envisioned by Scott Wolstein will make a big difference.

 

More at www.ap.org

Even civic boosters such as Councilman Joe Cimperman have few good things to say about the stretch of mostly boarded-up buildings that would be demolished to make way for Wolstein's project.

 

Can anyone pinpoint exactly which buildings would be demolished? I'm worried because there are a lot of cool old buildings on the East Bank, and just because they're boarded up doesn't mean they should be torn down. I hate it when Cleveland tears down old buildings just because they're vacant.

I believe the buildings in question are those you see in the foreground:

 

"I'm worried because there are a lot of cool old buildings on the East Bank, and just because they're boarded up doesn't mean they should be torn down."

 

The problem is that the buildings are built right up to the river - and together they effectively wall off the riverfront from the public. Wolstein's project includes an impressive public walk along the riverfront, something that is sorely needed in my opinion.

 

"I hate it when Cleveland tears down old buildings just because they're vacant."

 

You are aware of how rare that is in recent years? The buildings in question may be older but they are hardly remarkable, and as I said above - they block off any public access to the riverfront.

 

 

Yeah, but Mayday, aren't they going to also tear down the buildings on the other side of Old River Road?  There are some good buildings on that side.

 

I still think, as a whole, it is a good project

Everything from Main to the CSX tracks and from the River to W. 10th St. is gone.  Some of the buildings on the East side of Old River Rd. are imo quite fine examples of early Cleveland commercial architecture.  Its a very finely grained, human scale stretch of buildings.  This will be lost, unfortunately.  Maybe it is worth it, but it is still sad to me.  It would be better if some of it could be saved and incorporated into the design, but Wolstein has completely ruled out that possibility.  At least I would like to see the old Kindler's saved, even if it had to be moved somewhere.

yeah, this is a huge bummer, but I'm in with the "progress creates unfortunate necessities" in this case.  I'd like to think there are scenarios for saving the facades (at least), but it appears that with the realignment of the streets and what not, this will be an impossibility. 

 

I'd say that on the river side of ORR, the benefits far outweight the losses...creating public access to the waterfront vs. losing historic structures...but if there were possibilities for saving structures on the north side, it would be a shame to have a vision that couldn't incorporate them into the design.

 

 

I don't know that there are any historic buildings on the river side of the road, north of Main.  Most of those are actually relatively new.  They just look old and crappy.

You are aware of how rare that is in recent years [Cleveland tearing down old buildings]? The buildings in question may be older but they are hardly remarkable, and as I said above - they block off any public access to the riverfront.

 

I am aware that demolition of old buildings has slowed considerably in recent years, and I'm very thankful. It's just that -- as exciting as the overall redevelopment project is -- it would be sad to see a regression to the bad old days when progress equalled demolition. These old buildings are a big part of what make the Flats special.

If we were only talking about the shacks right along the river in your photo, that would be no great loss. Unfortunately, it seems like more is at stake.

OK, specifically, will these buildings bite the dust? (Photo taken from the Pope's excellent yay/bah photo tour)

These are the kinds of structures we should be saving IMO.