but the loop can move, right?  I mean, there was talk about rebuilding it for "eaton" anyway... why not stretch it out or otherwise alter it to allow for the best connections or developable sites?

But the tracks can't, or at least without a major undertaking... so basically all the loop can do is expand.  Which still leaves whatever is put there isolated with the exception of a pedestrian bridge or access off of w.9th  I think this area will always have to be "off the grid".

not if Bob Stark has anything to say about it!

well unless bob stark wants to move the commercial freight rail that runs east and west all the way across Cleveland right through there, I'm not sure he'll have much of a say.  And the WFL will always have to go over that line (unless someone wants to turn it subway for a stretch), and clear it vertically at a safe distance which I believe means the loop will always be necessary, and off the grid.

 

EDIT:  OK, where's captain railroad?  I don't really know squat about this but have been under the assumption for a long time that it would take a lot of work and money to essentially remove the loop.  KJP I assume you know the answer to this?

It WOULD be nice for the WFL to go underground, especially if they plan on bringing it through downtown at some point.

 

A guy can dream, can't he? :)

well unless bob stark wants to move the commercial freight rail that runs east and west all the way across Cleveland right through there, I'm not sure he'll have much of a say. And the WFL will always have to go over that line (unless someone wants to turn it subway for a stretch), and clear it vertically at a safe distance which I believe means the loop will always be necessary, and off the grid.

 

EDIT: OK, where's captain railroad? I don't really know squat about this but have been under the assumption for a long time that it would take a lot of work and money to essentially remove the loop. KJP I assume you know the answer to this?

 

I wouldn't say I'm "captain railroad" haha, but I work for a class 1 railroad. The short answer is, the thought of relocating is impossible.

 

The railroads have a very hard-headed approach to stuff like this -- their attitude is that they've been there for hundreds of years and they have no intentions of moving. I've seen trains derail because the tracks are built on top of a swamp and/or through a drainage area. The company will spend obscene amounts of money to rebuild, only to have another disaster in a few years.

 

This is of course all aside from the fact that we're talking about a main line. This isn't a secondary route, and it's not that they don't have options to detour... It would just cost them millions of dollars in revenue because of delays.

 

Here's an example... last year the average price to move one ton of coal was $67.50. That's actually pretty impressive (low) when you think about it. A decent sized coal train (130 cars) weighs in anywhere between 16,000 and 20,000 TONS. Each train generates close to/over $1M in income.

 

Coal is almost the cheapest thing we ship! And when it's late to wherever it's going, the railroads pay HEFTY fines.

 

Last fall there was a pretty major derailment in Painesville that shut down one of the railroads. It took them almost 4 days to extinguish the fire, evacuate the people from their homes, clear the mess away from the main line, and do a half-ass job of rebuilding it so they could move trains thru at 10mph. Rumors are that the delays alone cost the company close to $40M, and trains were parked as far away as Chicago because they couldn't handle them.

 

Again, I'm not a professional on this subject, but I think I've seen enough of it that I can say with confidence that those tracks aren't moving!

twok2lcdcnc, is absolutely right. The only way NS would relocate its freight train traffic is if someone pays ALL the costs of doing it. That includes costs of delaying freight shipments as trains slow through for construction areas, NS flaggers, NS employees providing insights as to their properties, etc. etc.

 

There is an alternative route... I wrote about it in a 2003 report in which I estimated the Lakefront Bypass (by upgrading and/or reactivating existing/underutilized NS rights of way) could cost about $142 million. That was just the capital costs, and that figure is already five years old (materials costs have since gone up anywhere from 30-50 percent).

 

To read my report, start at this summary page......

 

http://www.ecocitycleveland.org/ecologicaldesign/blue/rail_bypass_sum.html

 

By the way, the number of NS freight trains using the lakefront tracks has also gone up since 2003. It was about 50 daily trains five years ago. Today they're running more than 70 a day (I've heard that on some days the number may be as high as 90 but I don't know about that).

I will also agree with everything KJP says, and the report is accurate. The one major thing I didn't see on that report, however, is the fact that this requires the NS trains to be run on the CSX mainline. Particularly, the part that goes over the cuyahoga valley.

 

CSX has an equal number of trains, maybe more, than NS already has running on their tracks. The dispatchers and yardmasters in the area have the competence of toddlers -- they can't handle their own trains on time. To add to this mess, immediately east of that overpass that goes over the valley, the two tracks bottleneck into single track. It only lasts for one mile, and goes under five bridges that the railroad refuses to widen. Imagine best buy on the day after thanksgiving, but only one door is working. It's a combination of the aforementioned hard-headedness and the fact that the immediate delays would cost them millions. They can't see the big picture.

 

In Ashtabula, CSX and NS intersect with each other. They don't even physically operate on the same tracks, there's just a diamond where the two tracks cross over each other. The dispatchers fight like children over who gets track time, and often times intentionally hold up each other's trains to spite each other.

 

They obviously couldn't share 12.5 miles of normal railroad... let alone this 12.5 miles!

 

Again. Impossible.

Nope. The Lakefront Bypass I recommended was to the use the former NKP bridge over the Cuyahoga and below the Inner Belt highway near downtown. Look at the report again.

 

One of the bypass options I looked at was the Belt Line or Short Line, now owned by CSX. But it probably wouldn't work for the reasons stated in the report -- one of which that CSX owns it and it lacks the capacity to handle additional freight trains.

 

Anyway, back to the Flats East Bank.

^ Ah, my bad. I'm not familiar with that territory! But I know what you're talking about.

And back to the Flats East Bank construction:

 

 

 

 

 

Any boatnerds out there, can you tell me more about this? It seemed bigger than the usual freighters but this is the closest I could get on the zoom:

^i take it you couldn't save the image enough to read the ship's name?

We saw the Buffalo high-tailing it down the Cuyahoga the other day under the Detroit-Superior bridge with similar looking contents.  Your picture may be of that boat or one related.

 

http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/buffalo.htm

I wonder if this is the first time the FEB if devoid of buidings since the time of Lorenzo Carter.

This is second hand information, so take it for what it is worth, but the mills down in the valley are supposedly running over capacity and there is talk of building a new blast furnace and shifting more production to the west side facilities.  So I image the larger boats are bringing in larger shipments of coke, which is a great sign...I know Arcelor Mittal is hiring right now and the Cleveland facility was their most profitable mill in the US. 

^i take it you couldn't save the image enough to read the ship's name?

 

Nope. The machinery pictured (the yellow thingy and the gray thingy on the sides) was giving off a lot of heat "waves" and distorted the name too much. :|

Wow, thanks MayDay!  I hope they get a construction cam going on an official FEB website so we don't have to beg you to stand out there in the cold over the winter.

^You and me both!!

Okay MayDay, I can't give you too much crap since I owe you one from this morning, but reeeeeeeead.  ;)  I think the boat you saw was the Buffalo.

 

We saw the Buffalo high-tailing it down the Cuyahoga the other day under the Detroit-Superior bridge with similar looking contents. Your picture may be of that boat or one related.

 

http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/buffalo.htm

Is this it?

 

http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/canadiannavigator.htm

Nope docta - check the insignia on the smokestack, the smokestack itself (angled forward unlike the Buffalo), the windows on the cabin (horizontal strips).  :-)

 

Florida Guy I think you got it!!!

The Buffalo is the same size (634') as the "American Republic" which is a frequent traveler of the Cuyahoga.  So unless the Buffalo just seems bigger it is probably another ship. 

Ah yes.  So if you ever wanted to see a collection of great lakes boats...

 

http://www.boatnerd.com/pictures/fleet/

 

I have to say I was startled as well to see such a huge boat on the Cuyahoga.  Makes it feel like a bigger city :)

 

 

A possible source for the large ship: I heard today that Timken was receiving a delivery at the Cleveland Port of a 100+ ton piece of machinery from Germany.  They are going to unload it in Cleveland and drive it to their factory on a truck with 40+ axles.

MayDay, there are a few 1000' long freighters plying the Great Lakes; when they come into the Cleve, they unload their ore at Whiskey Island and the pellet terminal (the gangly bluish structure that was relocated from Lorain a few years back) reloads the ore onto shorter frieghters that can make it up the Cuyahoga to the mills. The hoss in your photo is prolly one of those big boys.

MayDay tried to bring this thing back on topic and his boat picture just detoured it in another direction!

 

In reference to my earlier comment about the loop and street grid, it was not at all meant to imply that we could move the freight lines.  Rather, that Stark's idea was that we could extend the WHD street grid OVER the tracks to a new development area on the Port's land.  This would be an extension of both FEB and WHD, but moreso of the WHD I suppose. 

 

Anyhoo, I love pointing out the crane from the Main Avenue Bridge when I pass over it!  Good stuff!

fantastic shots, esp the panorama. thx mayday -- this is exactly what i have wanted to see. love the boat bonus too!

 

I started a thread for tailgating questions here.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=16871.msg311572;topicseen#new

 

I agree, tailgating does infuse life into Cleveland on some cold SUnday afternoons, so lets talk about where people should go now. 

Some of my partner's family was in town, so we became tourists in our own city for the weekend. The Waterfront Line served us well to get us to/from Tower City and the Rock Hall, oh - and of course for me to snap pics of the Flats East Bank site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

very. very. cool.

I'm amazed, and delighted, at the speed at which this is moving along... 'preciate the visuals, MayDay.

I have a few questions for all you forumers who are in the construction industry or at least knowledgable.  It concerns the project timeline and the projected 2010 occupancy date.  In my untrained mind this seems a bit ambitions for a project this size (even December 2010) given where they are at this point.  And let's say many of the buildings will open then...would there not have to be very detailed architectural plans and specifications by now...if there are they are apparently holding the plans back for what every reason (am I wrong in believing

the pictures we have seen to date are still conceptual...especially the E and Y Building).

 

More specifically,  infrastructure work has just begun.  While they appear to be moving at a nice pace, this has to be major work including initial shoring (as discussed above) major excavation for sewers and water lines, other utility work and the rerouting of roadways, among other things.  I would think this work along will take 8-9 months bringing us to next spring (2009) before construction on the buildings could or will begin (maybe I am just wrong and it won't take that long but I am using as a guide much of the utility work on the Euclid Corridor projects... even small stretches took months).  That would leave about a year and a half to construct a number of buildings.  I guess it could be done but again it seems ambitious to me.  Thoughts?

 

And again, lets say that 2010 will see a finished product.  In my mind, if this is the case, somebody has to have in their hot little hands, at this point, detailed plans and specifications for the buildings as the various contractors have to begin preparing their estimates to bid on the work, not to mention beginning the process of ordering materials which will require lengthy lead times for fabrication (everthing from steel beams to elevator cabs).  So where are they and why have they not been released (I am especially anxious to see what the E and Y Building will look like)?  I am not really knowledgable about the process but don't they have to go through the planning commission?

I thought this project couldn't begin until court cases were settled, zoning was changed, and everyone was happy. Did I fall out of the loop, because I was shocked to see they are actually building and working down there already. This is great news if that is the case!

They could potentially do this project on a fast-track basis.  That allows portions of the project to begin, foundation work, before other portions of the project have been designed or completed.  I'm not sure how that works in with the plan review, planning and zoning approvals though.

financing still needs to be put in place.

from what i hear that's not an issue... they may not be holding some big press conference celebration, but all their ducks are in a row so to speak. If it is not in place now it will be shortly.

Financing is always an issue, especially in this banking environment. 

my point was i hear it's all lined up, even if it's technically not signed yet.

They could potentially do this project on a fast-track basis. That allows portions of the project to begin, foundation work, before other portions of the project have been designed or completed. I'm not sure how that works in with the plan review, planning and zoning approvals though.

^Construction-wise, I've heard from people directly involved in this that this will be a fast-track project (i.e., lots of overtime for us construction guys). E&Y and others at the end of their leases have to be able to move in before their leases expire; and all the drama over land acquisition didn't help the timeline either.

Was across the river today for  a volunteer orientation for Burning River Fest and noticed (without my camera) that the two southern most buildings in the site were being demoed. One was the former Groovey Bar and I don't recall the other. That leaves the former Fagans as the last building standing.

Was across the river today for a volunteer orientation for Burning River Fest and noticed (without my camera) that the two southern most buildings in the site were being demoed. One was the former Groovey Bar and I don't recall the other. That leaves the former Fagans as the last building standing.

 

Good update musky.  Any other "new" activity that you could see.  Last I was there, they were driving sheet pile along Main.

Oh for pity's sake, what do you expect, some sort of photo update every other day?!? ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sometimes I think MayDay really doesn't have a job, and he just wanders around downtown, checking UO periodically.

Thanks to the B-Line trolley, I can zip over there, snap pics, grab lunch from Constantino's and get back to my desk in under an hour. :-)

Thanks MayDay!  Looks like some significant excavation work at the E&Y site near the Concrete truck.  I believe that is the location at least.

Is the "groovy building" you speak of the one with the peace sign on top of it?

 

Also, what are the plans for the buildings along old river road?  Will these eventually be demoed as well or are they hoping for spinoff investment?  I would love to be able to buy the old Dick's last resort building and turn that into something.

 

 

Maybe a bit off topic but I saw a group of people walking around the old State Fish building a few days ago.  It appeared as if someone was showing a family around the building.  Could this have been a possible buyer?

Is the "groovy building" you speak of the one with the peace sign on top of it?

 

Also, what are the plans for the buildings along old river road? Will these eventually be demoed as well or are they hoping for spinoff investment? I would love to be able to buy the old Dick's last resort building and turn that into something.

 

 

Maybe a bit off topic but I saw a group of people walking around the old State Fish building a few days ago. It appeared as if someone was showing a family around the building. Could this have been a possible buyer?

 

I believe Dick's is gone...demoed.

Hey Mayday, is there a lot of water coming up with the excavated soil, or did it just rain?

Maybe I'm mistaken then (sorry just moved here), I meant the building right on the river where old river road crosses the rail line and across the street from where Buffalo Wild Wings used to be.