Glad to hear all of this...I didn't know about the residential component either and that makes me more understanding of the subsidy.  I understand that Cleveland is a struggling market and that subsidies are required all around and that this is more than "just a bowling alley"  I just know how this article makes the City Council decision sound to me and I wonder what the general public reaction is to the necessity of a $1.5 million subsidy for a bowling alley.

 

Now, on the Jackson front, I'm not nearly as worried as I was prior to the election about his position on development and keeping the momentum going and perhaps making it even better in this city.  I think it's positive that he's willing to understand that Downtown should take priority at times, because honestly, Cleveland as a whole has a lot more at stake, fiscally, Downtown.  Of course, no one in their right minds would discount the importance of the neighborhoods, as that's where 98% of the population lives. 

 

I think there are a lot of people nervously waiting to see what Jackson's approach is to development and the Downtown v. Neighborhoods and "his" neighborhoods v. other neighborhoods issues (I'm one of them).  And this may be a positive sign, but there are also lots of people who have supported Jackson who have development interests in this city and I find that reassuring as well.

Downtown is a neighborhood also.

Downtown is a neighborhood also.

 

yes Downtown Cleveland is made up of several Neighborhoods/districts:

 

The Historic Gateway

The Historic Warehouse District

The East Bank (of the flats)

The West Bank (of the flats)

The Playhouse Square

North Coast (part of the Central business district)

TowerCity District  (part of the central business district)

 

in addtion there are fringe 'hoods like

perry-payne

kirkland-payne (asian village)

Historic Prospect

The Quadrangle

 

Downtown Cleveland is an optical illustion, it appears very small, and its current usable area is small compared to the actual borders of downtown.

 

Pictures of site to be re-developed:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Slipping away

Linked articles 

»  Developer unveils bold blueprint for Flats office

»  Flats plan on approval fast track

»  Wolstein's Flats plan moves forward

 

 

 

 

By BRANDON GLENN

 

3:12 pm, December 8, 2005

 

 

 

While some business owners in the Flats dream of grandiose development projects, a far more mundane matter threatens the area along the banks of the Cuyahoga River, they say.

 

Bulkheads, which are retaining walls that prevent soil erosion and keep the river navigable, are aging and in need of replacement or repair, according to members of the Flats Oxbow Association, a group of area business owners.

 

More at crainscleveland.com http://www.crainscleveland.com

From what I've heard, the sewers are some of the oldest in the city.  That's not surprising, considering where they are, but this is the first time since the turn of the 20th Century (when they were installed) that there is a project in the works that warrants upgrading (replacing) them. 

 

I like this optimistic outlook from Wolstein.  And of course I like the baseball metaphor! 

 

The office building still seems to be a question mark, but the word on the streets is that it's a pretty solid spot and should be able to lure something pretty significant.  The question remains, though, who will the site lure?  Someone from elsewhere in Cleveland?  Someone from elsewhere in the region?  Or someone new to the region?  Let's hope for the latter!

Thanks for posting that, punch. Great news...

I hope infrastructure work really does start next year. We all like to see those cranes and trucks at work.

I may also add that I expect the architecture to be better seeing as the renderings released seem to be just massing models... I would hope we could get some stylistic mixing up...

^They are massing models.  The designs are not yet complete.  I do like how the site plan.  It creates a new grid and provides a lot of access to the river.  As a past boater, I really like the transient marina.  I can see a lot of boaters visiting Cleveland during the summer because of this project. It will be a cute new urban neighborhood with many amenities.  You could dock your boat and take the WFL to the Rock Hall or to Tower City, or just walk around the WHD and East Bank.  North Coast Harbor should do a similar thing. 

From the 12/17/05 PD:

 

 

Port authority to make offers on Flats properties

Saturday, December 17, 2005

Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery

Plain Dealer Reporters

 

Sales offers for Flats property owners facing displacement by a neighborhood redevelopment plan are now expected next month.

 

Developer Scott Wolstein originally hoped to make the offers last month with the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority ready to pursue eminent domain if negotiations failed.

 

More at

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1134812318245491.xml&coll=2

 

  North Coast Harbor should do a similar thing.

 

Winmar you hit that right on the head.  Since NCH is a visitor destination with a rail line adjacent there should also be a music oriented hotel  such as the hard rock hotel or the the house of blues hotel.  since a movie theatre wont be needed in the area.

Check out the Front Street Lofts site plan, posted on a new thread at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=7120.0.  This may be the Ferchill development from page 8 or so of this thread?

I was just on properties website (www.propertiesmag.com) and they had an article saying that construction on the sewer lines may begin in the first quarter of this year, and that financing is in its final stages. They also said that the first tenants in an office building will hopefully be able to move in sometime next year, and that the whole project should be completed in 2008 or 2009. Anyways, check out the above website and you can view the entire magazine for free!

Thanks Woolly!

Also, this from the 1/21 PD:

 

Flats proposal moving ahead

 

Plans to convert the east bank of the Flats into a new neighborhood moved forward Friday with the approval of two contracts. The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority's board authorized up to $51,000 for the Mannik & Smith Group to review a relocation consultant's work. Federal law requires the review. The board also approved up to $32,200 for URS Corp. to survey the property's location and environmental condition. The developer, the Wolstein Group, will pay for the contracts. The company owns about 70 percent of the proposed 20-acre site, with seven to eight others owning the rest. The port authority, which will finance the majority of the public investment in the project, plans to make purchase offers to the other owners and pursue eminent domain if negotiations fail.

Sometimes you just never know when you're gonna find a gem....

 

This past Saturday night I was heading out on the Metro here in D.C. for a fun little night at a bar called Hawk & Dove, just a few blocks away from the Capitol.  On the floor of the usually spotless subway car, I notice a copy of the Whole Foods Market employee newsletter.  I start fipping through, and come a list of their future stores, and get great big smile on my face! (See below, second column)

 

I'm thinking that this must be referenceing the East Bank project; is their anywhere else right now that would be logical for their first store?

 

^ unless they rebrand the market in reserve square as part of the expansion and in anticipation of avenue district.   they are expanding/rebranding/rebuilding that market, but nobody seems to know what the exact details are.  this would be a good location as well.

 

it could also be "greater cleveland" as the Cedar Center is getting a Whole Foods:

 

Cedar Center Plaza   

   

Sitting on the southwest corner of Warrensville Center and Cedar Roads is Cedar Center, a retail mainstay of University Heights, Ohio. Currently 20 acres of strip center facilities, the center is scheduled to be redeveloped into a retail / office complex beginning in 2005. When completed, Whole Foods will be joining CVS and Blockbuster Video as anchor tenant. Across Cedar Road is the newly developed University Square that is home to Target, Kaufman’s 

 

I hope there is one coming for downtown though...

 

That's actually a store opening in Cedar Center in South Euclid.

That's a good point, guys.  While it seems that they indicated openings in a metro by putting the actual location in parenthesis after the main city (see Chicago, etc.), I'm still feel you're probably right on this one.  But at least they'll be in the market and have a rep in the area that'll surely see the virtue of locating downtown.

I thought Steelyard commons was going to have one.

Not sure why I think that

 

From the whole foods website

Ohio

Cleveland

Whole Foods Market

Cedar & Warrensville Rd.

Cleveland, OH

44,268 sq. ft.

Opening date to be announced

 

Love that internet

 

In today's PD.

 

 

Flats property owners get offers

New neighborhood proposed for area

Wednesday, March 08, 2006

Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery

Plain Dealer Reporters

 

Offers have gone out for 13 parcels blocking developer Scott Wolstein's plans to convert the struggling east bank of the Flats into a new Cleveland neighborhood.

 

Negotiations with property owners began this week and will likely continue for several more, said John Loftus, vice president of regional development for the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority.

 

Representatives of the port authority, which is overseeing the company making the offers, say they hope to avoid eminent domain, but won't hesitate to use it as a last resort.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

 

 

Let the litigation begin.

Crap...This sounds a lot more complex than I had thought.  With the way eminent domain cases are going these days, it could be years before things are sorted out. 

 

What, if any, work can be started without these properties in hand?

I would think that there will be negotiation before ED is used.  Of course Wolstein is going to lowball them at this point.  He is inviting counter offers.  Hopefully, Wolstein will be realistic and not try to drag this out too much.

Another comment... I know that in proposing a project of this size, Wolstein needed to go to the City for support, which he got.  The public is really into this project and such a big deal has been made of it that it seemingly HAS to go through.  However, how much more difficult is it going to be to secure the remaining parcels with these grand plans and the neighborhood's profit potential being broadcast on the front page?  These 7-8 owners have every right to demand what their properties are worth, but now they can hold out, knowing just how critical their parcel is to the entire project.  Herein lies some of the need for eminent domain, but I wonder how this could have been avoided...if at all.  The same question goes for Stark's proposals for the WHD...which are at a much earlier stage.

Keep in mind that the recent Supreme Court ruling also gives the City a little more 'umph' when it comes to eminent domain. So, it may not take as long (should it go to ED proceedings) as previous cases would take.

I would think that there will be negotiation before ED is used.  Of course Wolstein is going to lowball them at this point.  He is inviting counter offers.  Hopefully, Wolstein will be realistic and not try to drag this out too much.

Personaaly, I think Wolstein is being realistic.  Those properties in the flats shouldn't be worth much at all.  There is nothing going for the flats right now.  If it weren't for Wolstein, these people woldn't be offered a penny for their place today.  Who the heck wants to buy a restaurant in the flats right now.  I think what Wolstein is doing is saying, "listen buddy, if you don't take my offer, you can sit down hear and rot in debt.  I'm the last guy that's going to offer you a penny for this building.  It's not 1990 any more.  You have a bad location." 

Agreed, gotribe. What difference does it make what they paid in 2004? The Flats has been on a downward spiral for years, and it's not going to stop until someone does something dramatic (i.e. this project). If the owners hold out, their property will just continue to depreciate -- especially if Wolstein's stuff, which comprises 80% of the site, continues to sit and rot.

 

Still, let's not have a collective anxiety attack yet. It's still very early in the negotiations... no one expected the owners to sell at first offer.

absolutely. its normal to start out with lowball offers. wolstein knows what the owners paid for the properties and when as well as what they are worth today, its all just part of the game.

 

imo the much bigger news is that it has come out to the public that serious offers are being put out there. that means its officially the next step forward and that the project is picking up steam.

 

i doubt anyone holds out until eminent domain, its only a handful of properties and the tone seems good, everyone seems enthused about wolstein's plans. we can only wait and hope.

 

You're right mrnyc, cases that go to ed hearings are rare.  everyone's got to act in their own best interest and that usually means settling on a price outside of court.

 

i like the comment, b12, that we were all on the verge of a "collective anxiety attack."  well put!  we can always count on you to bring us back down to earth.

Personaaly, I think Wolstein is being realistic.  Those properties in the flats shouldn't be worth much at all.  There is nothing going for the flats right now.  If it weren't for Wolstein, these people woldn't be offered a penny for their place today.  Who the heck wants to buy a restaurant in the flats right now.  I think what Wolstein is doing is saying, "listen buddy, if you don't take my offer, you can sit down hear and rot in debt.  I'm the last guy that's going to offer you a penny for this building.  It's not 1990 any more.  You have a bad location." 

 

While it's certainly not 1990, some of the businesses down there do ok, and one group was willing to pay $1.6MM in June.  It's not like the Flats has gone down hill a lot since then...  Even 2004 wasn't too long ago and long after the Flats really turned down.  Even if the area isn't booming, the properties are still worth *something*, especially since many of them are functioning, if not necessarily thriving, businesses.

 

Still, blinker12 is right: no need to flip out yet...

 

I have a question.

Assume all of the property owners and Wolstein come to terms except for the owners of the Circus, or whatever it's called now.

Assume that this ends up going to ED.

With the state wide moratorium on ED currently in place for the next ten months or so, what do you perceive to be the next steps in gaining that last parcel. (Again assuming, that it actually gets to that point that quickly).

Just wondering.

I think that the Flats project is grandfathered in because it started before the legislation took effect.

With all the plublicity this project has received over the past year or so, these property owners have had their heads filled to nearly explosive limits.  Flats this flats that blah, blah, blah.  The new neighborhood in Cleveland.  The rebirth of the flats etc etc.  I'm going to become a millionaire once they buy me out!  Plain and simple, these people now feal like they are sitting on the most valuable piece of land in Cuyahoga County.  Honestly, I don't think Wolstein and his people believe that.  Infact, i don't think Wolstein has enough faith in his project to pay top dollar for property.  This is a very risky developement for Cleveland.  I think were in for a long ride of negotiations, looks like a deal has been made....or wait, no it hasn't.   

I thought a while back, maybe Wolstein should have never gone public with this announcement until he secured the properties.  One year ago at this time, property owners were probably struggling with their business they would have taken the first offer that came along. 

^rumors are hard to keep quiet.

Pesky reporters are always ready to scuttle a project just to get a scoop.  Look what KJP did to Pesht!

 

([glow=red,2,300]JUST KIDDING KJP[/glow]!!!!!!!!!!)

Everyone down there has known for some time that Wolstein has been assembling land down there.  They also know that that is why their portion of the Flats is damn near empty.

I understand that they have known for sometime.  What I am saying is that with the press this project has received, land-owners feal as though they deserve top dollar.  If it weren't publicized so much, they would have looked at Wolsteins proposal as a chance to get out while they can versus a goldmine sale.  Not putting media or reporters down at all, just saying how the media sources, in a way, put the ball in the land owners court.   

I'm sure the land owners know alot more about what the value of their properties are than what they could have learned from reading about this project in the paper.

Musky and Wimwar, the moratorium on eminent domain shouldn't impact the Flats Project, because the Flats land has been declared blighted, so it could be taken under the old standard, which is still in place under the moratorium.  So even if it isn't grandfathered in, using eminent domain here is ok.

 

I think the moratorium suspends the taking of unblighted property for private rather than public use, which is for the first time clearly constitional due to the Supreme Court's recent decision.  However, the use of eminent domain is a huge political problem, because of the backlash from the recent SC decision.  That might impact the Flats project.  Particularly with Shia, or whatever that guy's name is, who is proposing his own development, although I hear it's more of a negotiating tactic to get more money out of Wolstein. 

Maybe it's working, since Shaia's Front Street Lofts' retail component is no longer listed on the Kelley & Visconsi retail brokerage web site. I will post a different message about this in the Front Street Lofts string.

Flats property prices anything but flat

Owners try to cut tax, sell for more

Tuesday, March 28, 2006

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

The majority of owners of Flats east bank properties sought by developer Scott Wolstein have asked the county to devalue their real estate in recent years, for lower tax burdens.

 

While the requests may have saved the owners money in the short term, they could hurt them during sales negotiations now under way.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

I'm glad to see the owners' greed exposed, but am also dismayed by their stubbornness.

Their arguments for higher offers don't hold much water considering how much of a de-valuation they've asked for.

Ok, forgive me, but I'm not going to call property owners out for being so "stubborn" in that they do not want to be forced to sell their property, in some cases for less than what the county insists it is worth and in probably all cases, much less than it's actual worth to the private interests that wish to buy it. 

 

Greed is one thing, but it goes both ways.  "Greed" is wanting your property devalued so you don't have to pay as much in tax, sure.  But greed ISN'T wanting several pieces of property but not being willing to pay what the owners want for it, so to solve this issue you go to "legal" means to force them to do what you want.  That's not greedy at all, is it?

 

Look, I hope it gets done, and quickly.  But if we're going to ignore property rights (what fun), can we at the very least can we not pretend that only one side of equation is guilty of this horrible sin of greed?

 

If they are still arguing for devaluations - hey, county, give it to them.  Then the owners have no leg to stand on.  Either that or use their demand for higher offers to increase their tax burden and force them to sell or get something together.

Ok, forgive me, but I'm not going to call property owners out for being so "stubborn" in that they do not want to be forced to sell their property, in some cases for less than what the county insists it is worth and in probably all cases, much less than it's actual worth to the private interests that wish to buy it.

 

That gets to one of the thorniest questions around eminent domain. Yes, the property is worth more because of Wolstein's interest in it -- but that appreciation is dependent on the development happening. If Wolstein weren't doing FEB, these owners would still be fighting for devaluations, and rightfully so -- the East Bank has been going down the tubes fast. But because he is, suddenly they're asking for more money. Is this defensible?

 

I look at it this way. In one scenario (development happens), the land is worth more. In the other (development doesn't happen), the land continues to lose value. IMO a good compromise is to pay the current assessed value of the property, which is in most cases what Wolstein is offering.

I still think Wolstein should have approached these owners 3 years ago before any news came out and offered them a price.  Really, I think at that time it may have taken him about a month to squabble up all the owners.  Nobody else wantede anything to do with the Flats at that time. 

These people didn't learn about Wolstein's interest from the news. If a buyer begins trying to buy up substantial pieces of property in a particular area, word WILL spread like wildfire.  Neighbors talk.  Also, property acquisition is extremely time consuming, and the lawyers, agents, etc, will be damn sure to check and see what is happening with other real estate in the area.  The news has nothing to do with it.

^ Not unless you're willing to form a number of different companies and use different law firms for each to conduct the acquisitions. That's how T.J. Asher acquired the numerous parking lots in the Warehouse District without attracting any attention until he and Stark started making noise about their intentions.

This 'plan' has been on the board for many years.  All of the property owners knew that Wolstein was aquiring land, and chose not to sell. 

 

Unfortunately, instead of taking some risks and making solid investments in the area, the other property owners have sat on their land. 

 

vison?  risk?  rewards?  'believe in cleveland?'  not for this group - it's a lot easier to just pay the taxes and wait for someone else to do the hard work.

This looks like an uphill battle for Wolstein.  At least District Park and The avenue District are moving forward.

what?  don't tease... District Park hasn't been mentioned for months... are you talking about Battery Park?