March 29, 200619 yr the holdout property owners are having a meeting tomorrow to announce their own plan. apparently, there is some talk of them buying out Wolstein. This is what has to stop for Cleveland to move forward. Waterfront property sitting undeveloped, money sitting on the sidelines. If these owners had such good ideas, why didn't they build some housing of their own?
March 29, 200619 yr ^I think they can then say "we were trying to undervalue our persent property becasue we wanted to make this super project" "If there is eminent domain, we will have lost our opportunity to go forward with our never mentioned before super project, so we are really going to need a boat load of cash" God love 'em for trying
March 30, 200619 yr I was told by an insider at DDR that the e.bank has nothing to do with them and that its a "Wolstein only" project. Maybe this was known, but I thought the money of DDR would be behind it. Will this effect the project?
March 30, 200619 yr This has always been the case. Its supposedly too risky of a project for the corporate entity to take on. Its a Wolstein family project all the way.
March 30, 200619 yr Well good for Wolstein. I think it will be pretty successful. I think people really want to go to the Flats again. It needs something newer and better than before. My impression of the recent article about the holdouts from these owners is that they wanted their property devauled so they could pay low property taxes. But now that the property is being sought after, they are throwing a hissy fit and demanding a lot more money than their property is worth based on the legal value that they fought so hard to lower. I mean I guess you can't blame them. They want as much as they can get out of it, but after seeing the offers published for some of these properties, I think these owners are foolish not to take the money and invest in new property somewhere else. They won't get an offer like this in the future if this project doesn't go through.
March 31, 200619 yr Give us more money or we'll revive Flats ourselves, owners say Friday, March 31, 2006 Sarah Hollander Plain Dealer Reporter Owners of property on the east bank of the Flats could float a plan to revive the area as an entertainment mecca if negotiations to buy their land fail. Developer Scott Wolstein wants to acquire more than a dozen properties off Old River Road and Front Avenue to create a neighborhood backed by public investment in roads, a riverwalk and utility upgrades. A number of the owners are considering other options because they think recent purchase offers are too low. More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
March 31, 200619 yr The owners have said they have there own plan. i believe that when they close all the bars and stop teens from getting killed there, after the whole tax scam f the owners. I have alot of hope for this project. Good luck to Mr Wolstein. hopefully he over come this!
April 4, 200619 yr If the owners have "their own plan," why haven't they announced it sooner? They're just blowing smoke to get more money. There hasn't been a unified plan for the Flats in a long time. If Wolstein can't develop the East Bank the way he planned, I don't think anyone will for a long while. And any development there won't be planned well, but shoehorned in.
April 4, 200619 yr "Owners of property on the east bank of the Flats could float a plan to revive the area as an entertainment mecca" Yeah, I think they already tried that - it was called the 1980s. "To say they were insulted is an understatement," said former Brook Park Mayor Tom Coyne, representing Tony George. Well a lot of constituents were insulted when he was found passed out and naked in someone's driveway, and subsequently in violation of parole but hey! :roll: http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/08/23/loc_loc1ohmay.html clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
April 4, 200619 yr I think it fits him to represent a stripclub and all 3 bars. he's a stripper and a drunk.
April 7, 200619 yr A PD editorial from yesterday... The Flats shakedown Some of those most responsible for the East Bank's long illness put the squeeze on a plan that might restore it to health Wednesday, April 05, 2006 Get this: Some of the slumlords who've helped run the East Bank of the Flats into the ground now say that they are insulted by the offers for their properties from developer Scott Wolstein. In fact, they are so offended that they just might renovate the Flats on their own. These slumlords and their sycophants are even whispering that Wolstein, who owns about 70 percent of the land needed for his planned riverside residential and retail complex, helped kill the Flats as an entertainment destination - perhaps by trying to bring family fare such as Max and Erma's to the land of stale beer, fake IDs and public urination. More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
April 7, 200619 yr Author ^ Way to go PeeDee! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 15, 200619 yr Author It gets better (or worse, depending on how sick my sense of humor is at any given time).... I spoke to someone today who was in the room during a negotiating session between the port authority and the owners of the various Flats properties. When Tony George was asked to give a counterproposal to the port authority's purchase offer, he responded with "Blow me." That's a direct quote. It went downhill from there. Tony George told a city official that if the Flats East Bank redevelopment project wasn't withdrawn, he would reactivate his "Ohio Citizens League" campaign to shrink the number of city council members. We sure do have a lot of rich, adult crybabies in this city. For more information about George's recent desire to reduce the size of council, see http://www.freetimes.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2985 He dropped that campaign because he said he was satisfied with the way things were being run by council. I suspect he (or a close friend/associate) was personally "satisfied" in some way. Though I doubt it was because someone was willing to relent to his request to "Blow me" (at least not literally). Really classy, Tony. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 15, 200619 yr And we wonder why nothing is happening on the convention center front. (He is on the Convention Facilities Authority, if you didnt know) did anybody catch the licence plate of the foot that just went in my mouth :?
April 15, 200619 yr Wolstein needs to cut a deal with the Shaia's so that Lighthouse Landing can be build nextdoor to Flats East Bank. Lighthouse Landing looks like a amazing urban project ... to be build at the NW corner of the Warehouse District on West 10th and Front Avenue. The word is that Wolstein wants to take Shaia's property (eminent domain) and keep it as a surface parking lot, while Shaia (the actual owner of the land) has detailed development plans that include providing parking spaces for Wolstein in a new garage. Apparently, Shaia has the full support of the Historic Warehouse District to develop Lighthouse Landings with extra parking for Wolstein, meanwhile Wolstein is looking for a "land grab" ... something smells funny!!
April 15, 200619 yr In yesterday's PD. (btw, I agreed totally w/ PD's last week's editorial). I'm a little queasy about thumbing my nose at Shaia if he's for real with such development possibility. It would be nice if our new mayor could get Shaia, Wolstein and the PA together in a room somewhere and work this out. The potshots Wolstein and PA are taking at Shaia worry me. While I understand PA and Wolstein's need for parking, but if Shaia's serious about his plans, you can't toss the guy in the Lake. 2nd project in Flats may replace parking Friday, April 14, 2006 Christopher Montgomery Plain Dealer Reporter A proposed $75 million residential development in the Warehouse District has added another wrinkle to developer Scott Wolstein's plan to remake the east bank of Cleveland's Flats. The people behind the new project, which would include 228 for-sale housing units, argue they aren't trying to complicate things. They say their project will complement Wolstein's development rather than compete with it. But a spokeswoman for Wolstein flatly dismissed the project, calling the timing of the announcement "suspect" and saying Wolstein has the only viable option to make "anything of scale happen in the Flats -- period." More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
April 15, 200619 yr Author ^ that article was already posted at the Front Street Lofts thread (which is what Lighthouse Landing was called initially). Apparently, Shaia has the full support of the Historic Warehouse District to develop Lighthouse Landings with extra parking for Wolstein, meanwhile Wolstein is looking for a "land grab" ... something smells funny!! I will answer this at the Front Street Lofts thread. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 17, 200619 yr And we wonder why nothing is happening on the convention center front. (He is on the Convention Facilities Authority, if you didnt know) Are John George and Tony George the same person?
April 17, 200619 yr Author No. Tony George's first name is actually Thomas. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 21, 200619 yr Author The port authority was expected to pass a resolution this morning that will authorize its law firm to use eminent domain to acquire land for the Flats East Bank redevelopment. The land includes 21 parcels owned by 21 companies. I haven't yet heard if the port authority board has authorized its law firm to proceed, or which property are, or are not being targeted. Also, the property owners are now alleging that Wolstein doesn't own the 70 percent of land needed for his redevelopment, but instead owns just 30 percent. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 21, 200619 yr Author The last quote, from port Chairman John Carney, says a lot! I'm sure the property owners have their own take... __________________________ http://www.portofcleveland.com/news/newsdetail.asp?NewsID=126 News Releases Contact: Jeri Waters Communications Manager (Click for Print Version) Federal Regulations Ensure for Equity Flats Owners Posted: 4/21/2006 – The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority voted unanimously to authorize eminent domain proceedings if further negotiations do not result in the acquisition of several properties identified for redevelopment in the Flats east bank. Eminent domain is always a last resort, but the agency must be prepared when all good faith efforts to reach an agreement have been exhausted, Chairman John Carney said today at the port’s board meeting. “We are still hopeful we can resolve this situation before it actually goes to the courts. That is still our desire,” he said. John Loftus, the port authority’s vice president of regional development, said the steps taken to acquire the properties met stringent state and federal guidelines designed to protect the financial interests of owners during negotiations for their properties. Since the Flats redevelopment project involved federal money, the Uniform Relocation Act takes precedence in governing compensation to property owners and provisions for relocation assistance, he said. “The law very clearly spells out the rules for acquiring property for redevelopment. We are not given a choice in the matter. Either we follow the letter of the law, or the project could be in jeopardy,” Loftus told board members. Ohio’s policies regarding Uniform Relocation mirror those of the federal government, Loftus said. The port’s role as coordinator of public funding for the project and its experience on numerous other complex development projects made it logical for the agency to also manage land appropriations for the venture. “We are committed to treating the business owners fairly and also seeing this development project through to completion,” Carney said. “The project will transform a crime-ridden area plagued with neglected buildings and deserted streets into a thriving lakefront neighborhood. This will result in millions of dollars in revenue for the region and thousands of construction and full-time permanent jobs.” The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority helps the regional economy grow and keeps local industries connected to the world by supporting thousands of jobs and providing area businesses a competitive advantage through maritime and development finance partnerships. The port averages 13.1 million tons of cargo per year, while generating more than $570 million in personal incomes through the 11,000 jobs supported by port activities. ### "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 24, 200619 yr Flats tactics questioned By JAY MILLER 4:04 pm, April 24, 2006 Property owners on the east bank of the Flats used a Cleveland City Council hearing this afternoon to air their complaints about the tactics developer Scott Wolstein is using to assemble land for his $230 million Flats East Bank development. More at: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20060424/FREE/60424011
April 25, 200619 yr Author The pieces legislation were moved to the full council, which approved them earlier this evening. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 25, 200619 yr So does the development agreement passed last night include Shaia's property or not? That's the next question. I'm kind of surprised that it wasn't in this article, seeing as it was a related, fairly major story that just came out last week.
April 25, 200619 yr tony montana wolstein "say hello to my lil friends the port authority & city council" "How jou like that, eh?" *** hopefully wolstein's whole project does not go down like tony montana tho! :shoot: ***
April 25, 200619 yr Author As far as I know, Shaia's property is included in the development agreement. I'll check with someone to verify. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 26, 200619 yr In talking with one of the property owners, I'd put money on litigation. This person is ready and willing to sell -- for a fair price. According to her, however, the small property owners have been getting very lowball offers and a "take it or we'll get it by eminent domain anyway" attitude. In response to her counteroffer, Wolstein's representative simply raised his offer 10% without any explanation of how that figure was determined. If true, that sounds like Wolstein is making "three contacts" as required for emininent domain, but isn't expecting to have to pay anywhere close to what a willing seller would take. She's also miffed that she never heard from any representative of Wolstein's until months after the project was unveiled. If Wolstein won't seriously negotiate, she's ready to take it to court and fight. She wondered how much delay can Wolstein take. Take this with a grain of salt. I cannot confirm whether she has received a fair offer or not, or whether Wolstein is really "negotatiating" in this manner. We're not hearing much in the press from the smaller property owners in the area, and so I thought everyone here would be interested in hearing another side to the story.
April 26, 200619 yr My only comment would be - if she was one of the owners who asked for a property devaluation for tax purposes, but now expects a "fair" price, I just don't have much sympathy. It's one or the other - either your property has value and you don't need to have a devaluation, or it doesn't and you'd better take what you can get. "she's ready to take it to court..." Unfortunately for her, the Supreme Court's decision will make short work of her attempts at prolonging the process. And she won't have much to persuade anyone via sympathy (i.e. no residents are being displaced). That's the danger of sitting on a parcel and waiting to resell it at a profit. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
April 26, 200619 yr - if she was one of the owners who asked for a property devaluation for tax purposes, but now expects a "fair" price, I just don't have much sympathy. Me either. "she's ready to take it to court..." Unfortunately for her, the Supreme Court's decision will make short work of her attempts at prolonging the process. And she won't have much to persuade anyone via sympathy (i.e. no residents are being displaced). That's the danger of sitting on a parcel and waiting to resell it at a profit. I disagree that the Supreme Court decision would speed up eminent domain proceedings. We'll just have to wait and see how that plays out, however. But what if -she did not request a tax reduction, and -she has an operating bar in the building. If the rest of the story is true, then I think she might be being railroaded in the name of "progress." She ought to get a fair price for the property, and if eminent domain leads to a fair price, then it would seem to me that she shouldn't have any complaints.
April 26, 200619 yr ^there are a lot of what ifs in that surround the story. Who really knows? I am sure that most landowners would give you an identical story.
May 1, 200619 yr From Crain's today... Domain debate looms As Scott Wolstein’s plan for The Flats’ East Bank picks up steam, task force debates nonelected officials’ rights to eminent domain By JAY MILLER 6:00 am, May 1, 2006 The looming battle over the buildings and land sought for Scott Wolstein’s Flats East Bank redevelopment project is raising questions about whether the use of eminent domain should be limited to governmental bodies that are directly accountable to voters. More at: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20060501/REG/60428033
May 5, 200619 yr Wolstein project in Flats under way Friday, May 05, 2006 Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery Plain Dealer Reporters The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority has cut its first deal with one of the property owners on the site where developer Scott Wolstein wants to build a controversial $230 million housing and retail project. Real estate investor Mike Tricarichi, who bought the old Jimmy's bar in 2004, said he has signed a sales agreement with the port, contingent on a hazardous waste inspection. More at http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/114681850927890.xml&coll=2&thispage=2
May 5, 200619 yr One down, a few more to go. Interesting what this Tricarichi has to say about redeveloping the southern portion of the east bank. He seems to be consolidating a good amount of land there. Wolstein project in Flats under way Friday, May 05, 2006 Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery Plain Dealer Reporters EDIT: Article removed, no link and article no longer on cleveland.com
May 5, 200619 yr Author "I've made really nice returns in these other markets," he said. "But the Sunbelt areas are really starting to flatten out. Cleveland wasn't a good place to invest a couple of years ago, but I think now there's potential for upside here." Nice to hear it from him. I agree with the guy. "I might be ahead of the curve, or I might be under the bus," he said. Or under the lake wearing cement shoes.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 5, 200619 yr Author Seems pretty clear that Tricarichi didn't tell the Port Authority to blow him :behind:... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 23, 200619 yr From 5/23/06 Eminent domain lawsuits filed in Flats project 3:39 p.m. By Sarah Hollander Plain Dealer Reporter Eminent domain is no longer just a threat when it comes to clearing the way for developer Scott Wolstein's proposal to overhaul the east bank of the Flats from the ground up. The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, working on behalf of Wolstein's team, filed two eminent domain lawsuits against property owners Tuesday. More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
May 24, 200619 yr Here's a link to the image: http://www.cleveland.com/business/wide/index.ssf?/business/wide/flats0524.html Port seeks Flats lots by eminent domain Wednesday, May 24, 2006 Sarah Hollander and Christopher Montgomery Plain Dealer Reporters Eminent domain is no longer just a threat when it comes to clearing the way for developer Scott Wolstein's proposal to overhaul the east bank of the Flats from the ground up. The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority, working on behalf of Wolstein's team, filed two eminent domain lawsuits against property owners Tuesday. More at http://www.cleveland.com/printer/printer.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1148459484279560.xml&coll=2&thispage=2
May 27, 200619 yr hey people look at this. :-o i saw this on bfd. this blogger does some reporting and really rips wolstein a new one. checker out: http://realneo.us/community-issue-i-90-bridge-and-innerbelt-trench/wolstein-development/is-wolstein-a-good-developer-or-just-a-reit-lets-look-arou
May 27, 200619 yr Author Maybe Tony George can tell the judge or jury to "blow him" as he allegedly told the PA in a negotiations session recently. Isabella Basile is the relative of late mobster Carmen Basile, I'm told by someone who once worked for Tony George. ______________ http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/114871867012310.xml&coll=2 Port files 2 more eminent domain suits Saturday, May 27, 2006 Sarah Hollander Plain Dealer Reporter Two more eminent domain cases were filed against Flats property owners Friday, bringing the week's total to four. The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority filed suit in Cuyahoga Common Pleas Court against Tony George, who owns an Old River Road building with relatives, and Isabella Basile, who owns the Beach Club building across the street. The port is working on behalf of developer Scott Wolstein, who wants to build a residential and retail project on the east bank of the Flats with government support. ........ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 7, 200619 yr Now things are gonna get really interesting 3 more sued over land for Flats project Wednesday, June 07, 2006 Christopher Montgomery and Sarah Hollander Plain Dealer Reporters The Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority rounded out its roster of eminent domain cases in the Flats on Tuesday, filing against three more property owners who are resisting plans for a residential and retail development there. The port filed suit in Cuyahoga County Probate Court against the Shaia family, owners of a parking lot on Front Avenue; James Kassouf, owner of parking lots on Old River Road; and a partnership between Kassouf and the Khouri family that owns the former Fagan's and Babylon restaurants, Rumrunners night club and a parking lot. The owners have been dissatisfied with the offers made to them by the port, which is representing developer Scott Wolstein. Wolstein needs their property to build a $230 million mix of 330 housing units and retail space. More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
June 7, 200619 yr If Wolstein decides to take the Shaia's land and keep it as a surface parking lot instead of allowing him to build 300 living units, a space that could be the linchpin between the Warehouse District and the new Flats development, I'm just going to lose it. Negotions are still possible though it appears.
June 8, 200619 yr Here is a excerpt from an article I saw on MSN Money that discusses basic principles of money and finance. I think it is an interesting parallel to the issue of the value of the different Flats parcels today, i.e. current landowners complaining that they paid $1.2 mil a few years ago and are being offered $500k now, etc. Of course, the Flats situation is a lot more complex, but I still think at a basic level, this principle rings true. ___________________________________________________________________________ Throw no good money after bad "Sunk costs" are expenses that have already been incurred and can't be recovered to any appreciable extent. "Sunk cost fallacy" means an irrational belief that a further investment of time, money or effort will somehow resurrect the value that's already disappeared. A classic example is the investor whose stock has plunged because the prospects of the company have worsened. The investor wouldn't buy the same stock today, yet continues to hang on to the shares rather than sell them and take the loss. The investor may offer the excuse that he or she wants to at least "break even" before selling, but of course the stock market doesn't care about the investor getting the money back, and all the wishing in the world won't bring the stock price back up. By hanging on to the shares, the investor is giving up the opportunity to invest elsewhere at a profit -- an opportunity cost. _____________________________________________________________________________ http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/LearnToBudget/9MoneyRulestoLiveBy.aspx?page=2
June 12, 200619 yr To get away from the ugly politics for a second.....what should the Flats look like? Everyone should be at least a little concerned with the preliminary "suburban office park" look to Wolsteins plan. The Flats are indeed a unique, unpolished jewell and any new development should correspond with their great history in mind. Anyone been to Baltimore recently? Fells Point, a historic waterfront neighborhood, should serve as a terrific model of how to rebuild each bank of the Flats. Like the Flats, Fells Point has a distinct, maritime heritage and caters to both visitors and locals alike. Check it out the photogallery for yourself www.fellspoint.us
June 12, 200619 yr I'm not thrilled by the Wolstein design either. But I wouldn't want to see any kind of saccharine recreation of what's been lost either. I just want to see what's left preserved and sensitively reused and thoughtful infill to replace the parking lots along the existing street grid. That said, given how little is left standing in the Wolstein zone, I'm not gonna squawk too much.
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