Those apartments are going to be expensive to. $1600 to over $3000

Those apartments are going to be expensive to. $1600 to over $3000

 

I wouldn't consider that expensive considering the location, amenities and it's new construction.  It's the price you pay for living in the heart of the city.

Yes, I would say $1600 to $2200 is fair for rental units.  I don't think their trying to attract 20 somethings paying off college loans to LIVE here, moreso play here and dream about living here someday.    There are plently of affordable rental options downtown as it stands right now.  If we're going to focus on rental units for the next few years, and not so many for-sale units, we need high end options.  This is the perfect lcoation.  Not so much urban, and more appealing to 50 something empty nesters.  We can focus better urban practices on the WHD lots, and the gateway area, and a more laid back/nautical options on the water front. 

For $1600 to be the recommended 25% of your gross, you'd have to gross $76,800.  I know a lot of lawyers working downtown who are making about $50,000.  So the cheapest unit is well beyond modern lawyer incomes in Cleveland.  If they had started out saying "we're going to tear down the Flats and replace it with an exclusive neighborhood for wealthy retirees," how much support would that have gotten?  Is that what we were going for here?

 

There are plently of affordable rental options downtown as it stands right now. 

 

By most accounts everything is pretty much full.

I'm sorry, but I think those prices are ridiculous. I love Cleveland a great deal, but those are Los Angeles monthly rental prices, and in good neighborhoods, not Koreatown or whatever.

For $1600 to be the recommended 25% of your gross, you'd have to gross $76,800.  I know a lot of lawyers working downtown who are making about $50,000.  So the cheapest unit is well beyond modern lawyer incomes in Cleveland.  If they had started out saying "we're going to tear down the Flats and replace it with an exclusive neighborhood for wealthy retirees," how much support would that have gotten?  Is that what we were going for here?

 

There are plently of affordable rental options downtown as it stands right now. 

 

By most accounts everything is pretty much full.

I don't want to get into a income and salary war here, but how the heck are these lawyers paying off law school loans making 50k a year?  If that is the case, I'm sorry, they need to move on from Cleveland.  Not saying 50k is a bad salary, but for a lawyer, it is.  The highest income earners of DT Cleveland professionals tend to be the lawyers, and if that's what their making, then I think we have a long way to go until we can bring on nice residential neighborhoods in the city. 

 

On the flip side of that, I do work with several young lawyers in the area, and I have a good idea of their salaries based on the invoices coming in, and their multiplier rates.  They are definately in the $1600/month rental apartment arena. 

Law is really struggling and associate salaries are nowhere near what they used to be. There are very few new jobs and the jobs that there are just do not pay the way associate jobs used to.

I'm sorry, but I think those prices are ridiculous. I love Cleveland a great deal, but those are Los Angeles monthly rental prices, and in good neighborhoods, not Koreatown or whatever.

RnR, I respect your comments, and I understand, but we need to rememebr this is new construction near the water in near proximity of what is to become Clevelands swankiest hotel.  Rent's can be jsutified in this area.  668 Euclid, WHD conversions, CSU, those can be lower.  And if we need more affordable options, then developers can step up to the plate.  But this is an option for high end rental units in the city.  Come on, we have Indians players making 400k to a million a year renting units in the Bingham.  That's rediculous.  There is not an option for them. 

 

Take a look at Stonebridge.  most of those units sold for over 200k.  If one was to rent it out, it would go for about $2000 a month to cover the mortgage.  This is in line.  We can't always brin $900 units online.  We need to offer high earners who can't own, or it doesn't make sense to own, excellent options.

Well, I hope you're right.

^^^^Just keep in mind that what they bill isn't necessarily what they earn. As an associate, you get a flat salary, not a percentage of what you charge.

 

In any regard...if we can support those rents, then that's great...but I'm guessing that's pushing the limit of what the market can bear.

There is a market for these and that rent range.  Not a problem. 

Speaking to the developer on Tuesday he's going after pro ballers, single divorcees (sp) that are looking to downsize. He believes there is nothing else like this neighborhood will be in Cleveland and believes he can demand a premium.

Other interesting tidbits on my tour of the project Tuesday:

 

The notch on the North west side of the building was a "gift" to Tucker Ellis Law firm. It was gifted because Ernst & Young initially wouldn't commit to the tower and Tucker Ellis was the first firm that did and they wanted the top 5 floors. Shortly after Tucker Ellis agreed to come on board, E & Y officially wanted to come to the project but wanted the top 6 floors. The developer got Tucker Ellis to agree to moving by giving them "something iconic" the notch with the terraces are that something.

 

Each building in the project is built to look different from each other. the A-loft Hotel is built to blend in with the Warehouse district. Not an exact rendition of a WHD building, but A-loft tries to blend into surrounding buildings.

 

When excavating for the foundation of the tower the foundations of two coal storage bins (for lack of better term) were found. The foundations were so well built they almost couldn't demolish them. Explosives were out of the question because of proximity of nearby buildings. The "Giant jackhammer" they used couldn't break the concrete. They had to get a guy out of retirement to come in and drop a wrecking ball in a unique way to break up the foundations.

 

The red construction crane will be taken down in about two weeks. It will be taken down by an assist crane, which itself will need an assist crane to put it together and take it down!

 

The "Hat" of the building a rectangular piece that covers the rooftop terrace will be lit blue at night. A problem with this is part of it extends over the edges of the building which will complicate changing bulbs when that is needed.

 

The A loft will have an outdoor fire place near the lounge. There will also be a lobby level terrace which will overlook the port and the lake.

 

A-loft was chosen because of E&Y. Ernst and Young's workers tend to be younger so the developers wanted a trendy hotel that would attract these young employees. The developers bought E&Y's training center in Berea (I think) so that that portion of E & Y's operation could also move downtown. The people being trained are the new hires who are also young. They will be brought in to train here from all over the country. It is thought that those workers will generate room nights for the hotel on off peak days.

 

That's all I have for now.

^Great info (and photos), thanks!

 

 

There is a market for these and that rent range.  Not a problem. 

There is a market, and probably a minimal one, I will they admit that.  However, we really don't offer anything of the likes at this time.  That said, I think they will be successfull.  These units aren't for the striped shirt guy who just got his first business card passing out at the blind pig on Friday nights.  There are however plenty of units available for that guy downtown.  My point is however, and Indians, Browns, or Cavs player should not be in the same building with him. 

These units aren't for the striped shirt guy who just got his first business card passing out at the blind pig on Friday nights.  There are however plenty of units available for that guy downtown. 

 

Not sure where you're getting that info.  Supply of affordable units-- for middle class professionals-- is a major problem.

 

And there is recent precedent for outrageously priced residential failing downtown.  The total number of pro athletes on all Cleveland teams is less than 100.  A sales job for the ages might get 1/3 of them in this building.  Divorcees by definition are often short of money.  I have to question this business model.  It's competing against Beachwood for a tiny market that really likes Beachwood.  Young middle class professionals love downtown.

 

I don't want to get into a income and salary war here, but how the heck are these lawyers paying off law school loans making 50k a year?

 

Indeed.  The economy has fallen apart, and we're responding with LA prices on apartments.

^In regards to your questioning the "business model", I am not a developer or real estate expert so I am not at all familiar with the process, including the preliminary research, a developer implements to gage his market, but these are pretty sophisticated (and cautious) guys, and it is not the first time they have been to the rodeo.  In addition, I imagine they have to make a pretty convincing case to their financing sources, especially given the current lending environment.

These units aren't for the striped shirt guy who just got his first business card passing out at the blind pig on Friday nights.  There are however plenty of units available for that guy downtown. 

 

Not sure where you're getting that info.  Supply of affordable units-- for middle class professionals-- is a major problem.

 

And there is recent precedent for outrageously priced residential failing downtown.  The total number of pro athletes on all Cleveland teams is less than 100.  A sales job for the ages might get 1/3 of them in this building.  Divorcees by definition are often short of money.  I have to question this business model.  It's competing against Beachwood for a tiny market that really likes Beachwood.  Young middle class professionals love downtown.

 

I don't want to get into a income and salary war here, but how the heck are these lawyers paying off law school loans making 50k a year?

 

Indeed.  The economy has fallen apart, and we're responding with LA prices on apartments.

 

Pro athletes were an example.  We have a couple of the largest medical institutions in the nation in Cleveland that employ people that can pay 2k a month in rent. 

 

Also, this is similar to how we have Hunting Valley homes selling for 1.2 million.  These people want to live in neighborhoods with other high rollers.  Not with me.  If I was make 750k a year, and wanted to rent dt, there are very few buildings I would go to.  And if I was making 750k a year, I sure as heck would not be buying dt.

 

And lets not forget, we aren't throwing 2000 units on the market with high rents.  This is one building were talking about here. 

I'm sorry, but I think those prices are ridiculous. I love Cleveland a great deal, but those are Los Angeles monthly rental prices, and in good neighborhoods, not Koreatown or whatever.

I disagree considering you don't know square foot, amenities, mill work, appliance package, floors, windows, view, design package, etc.  There are a lot of variables.  So lets not try to compare. 

 

Anything in LA with a beach view is going to be more.  The closest equivalent is the Marina Del Rey area.  IIRC, when my aunt and uncle were looking at condos they saw units that rented at $1,800 for 1bed/1bath  approx. 700 sq. feet.  2 bed/2 bath was $2,400 for approx 900 sq. ft.

 

I know for sure apartments near me on Wilshire are starting in $2k range for approx. 750/800 sq. feet

 

There is a market for these and that rent range.  Not a problem. 

There is a market, and probably a minimal one, I will they admit that.  However, we really don't offer anything of the likes at this time.  That said, I think they will be successfull.  These units aren't for the striped shirt guy who just got his first business card passing out at the blind pig on Friday nights.  There are however plenty of units available for that guy downtown.  My point is however, and Indians, Browns, or Cavs player should not be in the same building with him. 

This isn't really out of the norm in Cleveland.  668 has 2 bedroom apartment in the $1,700 price range!  That building filled up with no problem.  Look at their floor plans and website.

 

Cleveland is changing folks and we as a region have to get over the culture shock of everything be so inexpensive.

 

There are plenty of people that live in the region that can afford to live in this type of development.  People want this and know in order to live here, I need to come up with the $$$.  Development like this are a lifestyle that can be found in Chicago, Miami, DC.  Hell even in Atlanta and New Orleans.  People want this here.  I know I do.  It doesn't appeal to me, but I like the lifestyle uptick it should bring.

 

There are plenty of gays, 30 somethings with no kids or single 40 somethings that will find this development appealing.

 

 

Agreed gotribe.  And the market has been in Beechwood mainly because it hasnt yet existed downtown (and downtown is only fairly recently a succesful residential enclave), not necessarily because thats where everyone that can afford it wants to be. 

Yes pro-athletes are just an example, and many of them live in Avon Lake (but do you really think a single guy wants to live there?).  Congrats to Grady for venturing into Ohio City, but it isnt common, due to the lack of options. 

Downtown needs variety and this includes new higher priced housing. 

 

MTS is right here as well.  People there need to get over how cheap it is to live, this isnt at all out of the norm for even less desireable places or neighborhoods. 

 

Not sure the the shortage of housing for middle class professionals has anything to do with this project...  That merely opens up even more possibilities for housing conversions in other areas.  Sounds like a win win to me...    The precedent of pricier housing failing sowntown is also inaccurate.  You must be referring to for-sale, which is a different market whcih happened at a different time.

 

Other interesting tidbits on my tour of the project Tuesday:

 

The notch on the North west side of the building was a "gift" to Tucker Ellis Law firm. It was gifted because Ernst & Young initially wouldn't commit to the tower and Tucker Ellis was the first firm that did and they wanted the top 5 floors. Shortly after Tucker Ellis agreed to come on board, E & Y officially wanted to come to the project but wanted the top 6 floors. The developer got Tucker Ellis to agree to moving by giving them "something iconic" the notch with the terraces are that something.

 

Each building in the project is built to look different from each other. the A-loft Hotel is built to blend in with the Warehouse district. Not an exact rendition of a WHD building, but A-loft tries to blend into surrounding buildings.

 

When excavating for the foundation of the tower the foundations of two coal storage bins (for lack of better term) were found. The foundations were so well built they almost couldn't demolish them. Explosives were out of the question because of proximity of nearby buildings. The "Giant jackhammer" they used couldn't break the concrete. They had to get a guy out of retirement to come in and drop a wrecking ball in a unique way to break up the foundations.

 

The red construction crane will be taken down in about two weeks. It will be taken down by an assist crane, which itself will need an assist crane to put it together and take it down!

 

The "Hat" of the building a rectangular piece that covers the rooftop terrace will be lit blue at night. A problem with this is part of it extends over the edges of the building which will complicate changing bulbs when that is needed.

 

The A loft will have an outdoor fire place near the lounge. There will also be a lobby level terrace which will overlook the port and the lake.

 

A-loft was chosen because of E&Y. Ernst and Young's workers tend to be younger so the developers wanted a trendy hotel that would attract these young employees. The developers bought E&Y's training center in Berea (I think) so that that portion of E & Y's operation could also move downtown. The people being trained are the new hires who are also young. They will be brought in to train here from all over the country. It is thought that those workers will generate room nights for the hotel on off peak days.

 

That's all I have for now.

 

 

Thanks for the info Mov2Ohio.  Interesting bits from the project.

 

Any idea if they're still offering tours??

At this point, I welcome any new apartment construction. The majority of the places downtown are not worth the price they're asking for, regardless of location. It took me months to find one I was happy with. The problem is prices have been slowly creeping up without any improvement to the properties. But I'm okay with it because downtown is supposed to be expensive? Hmm :?

 

As for the phase2 rendering, I think it's an improvement over the first iteration. Less surface parking and bit more density. I agree though, I'm surprised with the lack of retail/restaurants with water frontage.

^ I agree, after being in Milwaukee recently and seeing some very well done sections along the river (residential and commercial) built up to the waterfront and high density.  I wish this plan had more that looked more like that.  This (phase 2) looks too much like an adult playground, over planned big mall development.

 

I actually like that the buildings proposed for the Flats East Bank are not right on the water because it opens up the riverfront to the public more. And isn't that one of Cleveland's biggest development issues?

 

I know about those new buildings in Milwaukee that you're referring too, and I think they form a barrier between the public and the riverfront. That being said, I do think developments like those along the river in Milwaukee would be suitable for some other areas in Cleveland; such as along Old River Road to the south of the Shoreway and along Columbus Road.

 

^Right...and we already have a group of buildings built right on the river...Because of this the boardwalk cannot continue.

^^To be more specific, the issue many of us had with the site plan vis a vis the water was that the buildings were actually too cut-off from the public promenade. As shown in the renderings of phase II, Most of the outdoor restaurant seating and restaurant windows are separated from the promenade by a grade change and either stairs or landscaping.  I think this detracts both from the promenade (which loses the "eyes on the street") and the restaurants, which have less of a people watching vantagepoint. I suspect the promenade is going to feel awfully lonely for 6 months of the year.

 

Not sure if this has been posted yet. I'm on the flatseast.com site fairly often and I've never noticed this before... But it shows a pretty detailed view of Phase I and Phase II with names of each of the restaurants that have signed on so far. It looks like only Lago, Ken Stewarts and Willeyville are a part of Phase I.

 

http://www.flatseast.com/documents/FlatsLeasingPlan.pdf

 

Thanks for posting that! I'm curious what sort of tenants the developer envisions filling all the retail on West 11th street. So far it seems as though they've had a lot of success attracting destination restaurants, but will be interesting to see what else they can bring in.  It can't all be restaurant or office/resident convenience stuff, can it?

 

^^To be more specific, the issue many of us had with the site plan vis a vis the water was that the buildings were actually too cut-off from the public promenade. As shown in the renderings of phase II, Most of the outdoor restaurant seating and restaurant windows are separated from the promenade by a grade change and either stairs or landscaping.  I think this detracts both from the promenade (which loses the "eyes on the street") and the restaurants, which have less of a people watching vantagepoint. I suspect the promenade is going to feel awfully lonely for 6 months of the year.

 

Well put.

^^To be more specific, the issue many of us had with the site plan vis a vis the water was that the buildings were actually too cut-off from the public promenade. As shown in the renderings of phase II, Most of the outdoor restaurant seating and restaurant windows are separated from the promenade by a grade change and either stairs or landscaping.  I think this detracts both from the promenade (which loses the "eyes on the street") and the restaurants, which have less of a people watching vantagepoint. I suspect the promenade is going to feel awfully lonely for 6 months of the year.

 

Not sure if this has been posted yet. I'm on the flatseast.com site fairly often and I've never noticed this before... But it shows a pretty detailed view of Phase I and Phase II with names of each of the restaurants that have signed on so far. It looks like only Lago, Ken Stewarts and Willeyville are a part of Phase I.

 

http://www.flatseast.com/documents/FlatsLeasingPlan.pdf

 

Thanks for posting that! I'm curious what sort of tenants the developer envisions filling all the retail on West 11th street. So far it seems as though they've had a lot of success attracting destination restaurants, but will be interesting to see what else they can bring in.  It can't all be restaurant or office/resident convenience stuff, can it?

 

 

I think you guys are being unfair as there is no 3d model to prove this.

Don't want to get too off topic on my first post, but there are plenty of firms in Cleveland with 6 figure starting salaries. Jones Day is hiring like mad right now and starts at $145k. Baker Hostetler starts at $130k. Thompson Hine, Hahn Loeser, Calfee, Taft Stettinus, Benesch, and others are all $100k+. These firms collectively employ hundreds of associates. To be sure, times are tough, and a law degree is no longer a ticket to guaranteed financial success. But there certainly is a market for luxury rentals downtown. And as of right now, there is next to nothing on offer downtown to fill that niche.

 

For $1600 to be the recommended 25% of your gross, you'd have to gross $76,800.  I know a lot of lawyers working downtown who are making about $50,000.  So the cheapest unit is well beyond modern lawyer incomes in Cleveland.  If they had started out saying "we're going to tear down the Flats and replace it with an exclusive neighborhood for wealthy retirees," how much support would that have gotten?  Is that what we were going for here?

 

 

Welcome Freiburg! Did you just get off work from the firm? ;)

All this talk about comparing LA prices to Cleveland prices it, I think, misguided.  Cleveland has a niche to fill and these are doing it.  As the above poster said, there are plenty of law firms paying well.  With all due respect to RnR and 327, I really don't see a problem with the price points.  I pay $1800 for a gorgeous 2 bedroom 2 bath with balcony and additional loft space and 18 ft ceilings in the living room in the Windsor Village area (which is very close to Koreatown, which by the way is not a bad area, rents are rising there).  Granted I got a deal when the market was softer, but I think Cleveland could definitely compare to LA price wise depending on location.

All this talk about comparing LA prices to Cleveland prices it, I think, misguided.  Cleveland has a niche to fill and these are doing it.  As the above poster said, there are plenty of law firms paying well.  With all due respect to RnR and 327, I really don't see a problem with the price points.  I pay $1800 for a gorgeous 2 bedroom 2 bath with balcony and additional loft space and 18 ft ceilings in the living room in the Windsor Village area (which is very close to Koreatown, which by the way is not a bad area, rents are rising there).  Granted I got a deal when the market was softer, but I think Cleveland could definitely compare to LA price wise depending on location.

 

I do not agree with this at all, quality yes but when the actual land built on is 1/4 the price of LA land then that should be reflected in end cost.  Now construction quality and materials used, sure those can be on par and those value added numbers should be equal but over all this is not LA...  lets be real.  For a relatively modest home in LA I can go to my native Shaker Heights and buy an amazing home with public transit and great city services.

 

Lets forget the California cost comparison conversation before this gets shut down.  :angel:

The Principal at the lead development firm also mentioned how they lost Eaton to Beachwood.

 

Eaton was very interested in the "RTA Rail Loop" location that was in the original renderings. When they were talking to the developer as well as leadership from the Port, City of Cleveland about moving there they felt they were being giving enough attention so they moved out to Harvard and Richmond. The developer admitted he could have done more to keep them interested and obviously would have really wanted them in the Flats.

All this talk about comparing LA prices to Cleveland prices it, I think, misguided.  Cleveland has a niche to fill and these are doing it.  As the above poster said, there are plenty of law firms paying well.  With all due respect to RnR and 327, I really don't see a problem with the price points.  I pay $1800 for a gorgeous 2 bedroom 2 bath with balcony and additional loft space and 18 ft ceilings in the living room in the Windsor Village area (which is very close to Koreatown, which by the way is not a bad area, rents are rising there).  Granted I got a deal when the market was softer, but I think Cleveland could definitely compare to LA price wise depending on location.

 

I do not agree with this at all, quality yes but when the actual land built on is 1/4 the price of LA land then that should be reflected in end cost.  Now construction quality and materials used, sure those can be on par and those value added numbers should be equal but over all this is not LA...  lets be real.  For a relatively modest home in LA I can go to my native Shaker Heights and buy an amazing home with public transit and great city services.

 

I'm talking about rental prices, not the cost of purchasing a home.  I think the rents at Flats East Bank reflect the waterfront location and amenities being offered.  They are not out of line with what the market in Cleveland can bear. 

If you check out the webcam right now, it appears they are going to start to lower/remove the tower crane.  :-( sad times... i hope we can have more tower cranes downtown in the near future... i'm kind of a dork when it comes to tower cranes. have an absolute obsession with them.

The Principal at the lead development firm also mentioned how they lost Eaton to Beachwood.

 

Eaton was very interested in the "RTA Rail Loop" location that was in the original renderings. When they were talking to the developer as well as leadership from the Port, City of Cleveland about moving there they felt they were being giving enough attention so they moved out to Harvard and Richmond. The developer admitted he could have done more to keep them interested and obviously would have really wanted them in the Flats.

 

This differs from my previous understanding, which was that Eaton had zero desire to be there.  Very interesting.

^ thats a typo up there right? they felt like they were not being given enough attention so they moved...?

No typo, that's what he said happened. He said something along the lines of the Port leadership then wasn't very agreeable and Eaton saw something they didn't like and moved on.

There are two sides to every story, but I am not saying you are wrong.  It could have been something as simple as not being able to line up the financing at the time.

 

Hopefully what goes in that spot eventually will be as good as good as having Eaton there

Could also have been something like the port not wanting to spend $20 million of public money to enlarge the loop.

Could also have been something like the port not wanting to spend $20 million of public money to enlarge the loop.

 

That's more than plausible.  I'm not unhappy with the outcome though.  Like Euclid Avenue, the waterfront is too special for private offices.  Offices are inert for the majority of the day, week, month and year.  That limits the utility of the land, and by extension all the land around it, because it adds distance between walkable destinations.

Could also have been something like the port not wanting to spend $20 million of public money to enlarge the loop.

 

That's more than plausible.  I'm not unhappy with the outcome though.  Like Euclid Avenue, the waterfront is too special for private offices.  Offices are inert for the majority of the day, week, month and year.  That limits the utility of the land, and by extension all the land around it, because it adds distance between walkable destinations.

 

I agree with you here, but the RTA loop is a bit of dead land as is.  It is pretty much cut off from everything.  I think it is going to take an incredibly ambitious and expensive plan to make it into something feasible for pedestrian use.

I agree with you here, but the RTA loop is a bit of dead land as is.  It is pretty much cut off from everything.  I think it is going to take an incredibly ambitious and expensive plan to make it into something feasible for pedestrian use.

 

I think it's a challenging site to work with, but also has some incredible opportunities.  Take a look at the way the rail and roads intertwine like an Escher painting.  Though there would be added costs (possibly shared by the County, City, Port?) there are some unique factors that could lend to beautiful architecture and landscaping choices. It will take a much larger plan involving the parcels around the loop as well, but I still look at this area and think with the right market/financing factors in place something very special could be done.

 

http://goo.gl/maps/0CAGS

There is a new crane being constructed at this project.

^Probably to lower each section of the tower crane during the disassembly.

^correct, per Mov2Ohio.

 

The red construction crane will be taken down in about two weeks. It will be taken down by an assist crane, which itself will need an assist crane to put it together and take it down!

It'll be interesting to watch the tower crane be disassembled.

 

It also looks like the brick work is coming along nicely on the Aloft Hotel.  :clap: :clap:  Can wait to see some glass go in there!!!

and the crane begins to come down!

And the pic to prove it!!!  :-D

 

 

 

http://www.flatseast.com/webcam.htm

:-( Guess i have a reason to drink tonight (other than the browns, of course) :drunk:

 

we should just set up a tower crane on one of the lots in the warehouse district so it looks like something's going on  :evil: