as i have said before, i would like to see the original rockefeller warehouse and the old kindlers bar remain and be reused somehow. they are locally significant buildings in my mind, if not architecturally or historically. maybe wolstein can incorporate and work around them. but like straphangar, i am not going to squawk too hard about it either. still, it's a built in opportunity to keep it quirky and visually interesting around there and not so suburban bland and lifestyle mallish. you dont want a generic cols arena district type development plopped in that site (which is what it looks like so far in the couple renderings we have seen). we have to be patient and wait out emminent domain to see what the final design is going to be i guess.

 

 

 

 

I would like to see Wolstein keep the existing street layout and a few of the historic building if possible.  I would like it if he built his building right up to the riverfront, because I think that is a part of the unique character of the Flats.  I'd like to see the same done where the Nautica complex and parking are now located.  He could still add boardwalks for public access, and roof decks for al fresco dining. 

 

I don't think that it's necessary to be as architecturally conservative as the buildings in the renderings that we've seen.  Brick is nice, but the Flats has an industrial heritage.  Steel, concrete (in moderation), glass, and other more modern appearing materials could look nice and could play off of the bridges and infrastructure that are so much a part of the character of the place.

 

I would keep buildings from being too large horizontally.  I know he needs density, so he needs to build up, but I think that the buildings in the rendering are too long, most are a short block by themselves.  It would be better if the buildings were narrow and tall.  If need be, they could still be connected by interior passageways, or they could be larger buildings, but with multiple facades.  See the way they are doing it at the Avenue District.

You know, about half of the East Bank along Old River Road will not be touched by the Wolstein development. No one seems to tak about this, but there is an attractive strip south of the Main Ave. Bridge on Old River Road that will remain. In my opinion the strip that Wolstein is tearing down has absolutely no aestetic value to the neighborhood.

Most of what he is tearing down isn't all that great.  But a couple of buildings such as the old Kindler's and the old John Harvard Brewhouse and Heaven are nice and would be nice to keep.  Also, I think that the non rectilinear streets are a part of the Flat's charm.  Those will be lost with the current East Bank plan.

I agree, X. I've never liked the clear-cut approach Wolstein is taking. It makes no concession to history, and therefore I worry about it feeling fake. This is a very Cleveland approach to redevelopment (raze and start again). Still, I guess I'd rather see the project go forward than not.

 

The West Bank proposal, where new buildings will be constructed alongside old ones on surface parking lots, is much more to my liking.

all this makes me excited to be on the WEST bank, where there may end up being some diversity in the architecture (ie love the Tenk building, lets hope that it is a keeper) . Unfortunately if the east bank turns out ugly, that is my view from the west.  Does anyone really know what this is going to look like? I will die if it ends up like one of crappy water front developments you see in FL. ie pseudo Greek Spanish vomitus revival.

all this makes me excited to be on the WEST bank, where there may end up being some diversity in the architecture (ie love the Tenk building, lets hope that it is a keeper) . Unfortunately if the east bank turns out ugly, that is my view from the west.  Does anyone really know what this is going to look like? I will die if it ends up like one of crappy water front developments you see in FL. ie pseudo Greek Spanish vomitus revival.

 

This is onr of the factors that kept me from buying at SB phase 5.

The fact that Wolsteins development seems to "integrate" with the river at a diagnol angle shows that him or his architect have no idea what the Flats are.  Engage the river, utilize many different materials, make the construction match the kinetic energy that the river currently has:  bridges raising and swinging, boats rotating and blowing horns, trains (mass transit and freight), automobiles speeding overhead, factories churning on the banks.

It just seems so damn obvious to relate to such an exciting character, but it appears they will play down to the lowest common denominator once again, "everything else is brick, we should use only brick).

Wolstein is used to doing this kind of low quality design, he's been destroying the Cleveland for the past 40 years, and now he's missing out on an opportunity to help fix a part of it.

I hate developers.

given the fact that other developments have come about after his original proposal that have higher design standards i would think he would rework much of this when its ready to be built

geez, aren't we being a little harsh based upon the fact that the designs that we have seen are only massings?  Additionally, since when has brick become the architectural anti-christ? 

 

I would consider the renderings shown to be further along than just massings.  They are showing materials, landscaping, and some level of detail, as well.

 

Also I like brick and would like to see plenty of it incorporated into the design.  I just think that the project could be opened up, material-wise.

Plus, I think it is those very massings that most of us are complaining about.

Yeah, bring on the brick. It's the demolition and site plan I'm not wild about. The site plan is so... Floridian.

I'm still having trouble with the demolition too.  There is astonishingly little left of the old flats.

 

Anyone else think it's funny that renderings and site plans always show the river in blue?  That river is cool but a pretty color it ain't.

The site plan is so... Floridian.

 

Supposedly the site plan is Florentine inspired- according to Wolstein who made the comment after he vacationed in Florence. We'll see though.

Supposedly the site plan is Florentine inspired- according to Wolstein who made the comment after he vacationed in Florence. We'll see though.

 

Ah, yes.  Firenze.  Now I recognize it. :roll:

Maybe I am being a bit harsh considering it's only massing studies thus far, but I just think we can't be happy with it just being built.  That's the old Cleveland attitude I think we are trying to get away from.  I've worked for an architecture firm that does a lot of developer work and I see that once an idea from an arch. is shown, it's hard for developers to get that one idea out of their head.

And come on, first Pescht, now Florence?  What's next, a Venitian canal system?  Firenze takes about as much advantage of their river as we do the Lake, although the Arno also makes the Cuyahoga smell acceptable at times. 

I can accept Stark using Pesht as a conceptual base for the city, but simply plopping a medevial Florentine grid system onto the east bank doesn't make much sense.

And come on, first Pescht, now Florence?  What's next, a Venitian canal system?

 

Nice. I hear Forest City Enterprises is considering a spiderweb of canals amid residential on Scranton Peninsula. Whoops -- my mistake. FCE doesn't believe there's a market for residential in Cleveland's core. They must be so much smarter than Asher, Corna, Maron, Marous, Priemer, Price, Stark, Wolstein, Zaremba and others from A to Z who are building residential in the core.

Community News Briefs

Friday, June 16, 2006

CLEVELAND

 

Eminent domain hearing

 

A request to halt attempts to acquire property on the east bank of the Flats through eminent domain is scheduled for a hearing in Cuyahoga Common Pleas Court on June 28. Cleveland resident Cynthia Roether filed the suit as an interested taxpayer. She is represented by Thomas Scanlon, a lawyer for an affected property owner.

 

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

I went to check out the condos in the Water Street building, and lo and behold was a big-arse rendering for Flats East Bank:

 

great find!

Cool!  There's that blue water again.

nice find ..

 

This is off topic, but what was your opinion of the water street condos and did you take any pictures?  You've spoiled us with your great photos!

Community News Briefs

Friday, June 16, 2006

CLEVELAND

 

Eminent domain hearing

 

A request to halt attempts to acquire property on the east bank of the Flats through eminent domain is scheduled for a hearing in Cuyahoga Common Pleas Court on June 28. Cleveland resident Cynthia Roether filed the suit as an interested taxpayer. She is represented by Thomas Scanlon, a lawyer for an affected property owner. Judge Peter Corrigan denied a request for a temporary restraining order last week. The suit alleges that the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority abused its powers by filing eminent domain suits to make way for developer Scott Wolstein, who wants to build a retail and housing complex in the Flats.

How far do you think this will make it?

Not far.  It's unclear if the plaintiff even has standing to sue.

In the rendering, the 14-story or so building in the background almost looks like one of the condo buildings proposed by Kassouf... I wasn't aware that Wolstein was proposing any buildings that tall. Hmmm.

^ i was thinking that was the office building he proposed?

The angle isn't right for the office building. The taller building shown above looks to be east or possibly southeast of the transient dock along the river. The office building is north or northwest of the FEB development area. Plus the building shown above has balconies and looks residential.

 

EDIT: I just checked another rendering, and you can see the taller building in it (which is actually northeast of the transient dock). I didn't realize that building was going to be that big (sure would be nicely complemented by Shaia's Lighthouse Landing!)

 

I have very poor spacial skills (please don't kick me off the forum!), but the renderings posted by KJP and Mayday  look very different.  Are these covering the same partial of land?  I like the Mayday ones in that there is a lot of space facing the river (condos , cafes and promenade) as opposed to the angled buildings in KJP picture. Or maybe it is just the blue water and the schooner!Still, even in the Mayday pic, I still cannot imagine yet what the finished product would look like.  I guess it depends on the materials. I also like that at least first appearances do not suggest the neo greco tuscan vularis architecture inspired by Florence  feared a few posts back. While 16th century buildings look good in Florence, it would look foolish in a modern midwestern city, no? It would look like a tacky retirement community in Florida.

While 16th century buildings look good in Florence, it would look foolish in a modern midwestern city, no? It would look like a tacky retirement community in Florida.

 

Peabody...get out of my head!  I was thinking the same thing! LOL

KJP: "sure would be nicely complemented by Shaia's Lighthouse Landing!"

 

My thoughts exactly!

I'll bet the rendering MayDay posted is probably more recent, since it is the one being used right now as part of their sales pitch. The rendering I posted was from a year ago, when the project was officially announced.

 

As to it complementing Lighthouse Landing, I say that because it's seems a natural progression or stepping up of building heights from the river. You've got what looks to be 4-5 story buildings, then a 14-story building, followed by LL's 18-story first phase and then their 22-story second phase. And, the way the buildings might be situated, the views from each don't appear to be blocked by the others.

and why would you want to wall off your development down the hill from Downtown's most vibrant district with 2+ blocks of surface parking?  sounds like a mood killer to me!

I think the angles are the same, it is just that the view in the "newer" rendering is from in front of the marina (think south end of shooters) and at street level and not from the air. 

 

why don't they post some of these renderings either along the river or on some of the properties Wolstein does own?  I was at shooters last night and the view of the east bank is terrible, but there is no signage of what is to come.

From yesterday on the Goodtime III:

 

Actually being used and hopping on a Friday night:

 

Not so much:

 

Dick's has seen better days:

 

 

Blight!

 

Hey, this one's available!  Know any buyers?

 

Fado is still looking nice...business is a bit slow, though  :wink:

 

What?

 

The row that time forgot...

 

It was once a very lively place that could've lasted if managed correctly... now what?  A complete demo and rebuild?  Or is this stuff worth saving?

 

Yeck, knock it all down! Those things are hideous. Even if they were still active, they'd look horrible.

 

Does that whole area have to be "adult" oriented? If they are going for the cheesy Atlantic City look, why don't they have gaming arcades on the boardwalk with pizza/hotdog/hamburger places and a ferris wheel and other family-friendly/carnival-like things? Make it like an ocean boardwalk where everybody mixes -- families, teens with guitars, dancers, adults going to bars - don't program it. If you make it so people want to come, that'll all take care of itself. Put the cops all over the place just to make everyone feel safe. It seems to me if it's just a big strip of bars with nothing else to do, it's going to keep imploding. I'd be more interested in going there just to walk around on a Friday or Saturday night if there were all sorts of people. I have no interest in going into a pit of seedy bars -- and I'm 24 years old. No thanks Las Vegas... How about Cleveland's Coney Island instead? That's more my speed, at least.

 

Would it be possible to use that area as a staging area for a big sailboat race? I used to live in Michigan, and there they had the Port Huron to Mackinac Island sailboat race where thousands and thousands of people came to this small town during one weekend to see the race start and to see several hundred boats along a similar river setup. It was a huge attraction. I know Chicago does a race to Mackinac, too. It attracts boat people from all over the Great Lakes. Just some thoughts.

^ditto. knock it all down along there.

 

but.....do better than that rendering kjp posted. that stuff is way way too generic. that exact style of apt building is going up in every city in america. i'm sick of seeing them already. this is a golden moment that demands greater architectural variety and creativity. don't just plop any old off the shelf arena district or lifestyle mallish structures like that into the flats. ugh.

 

 

is it me or is this rendering on the forum architects page a bit interesting as far as where shaia's property has stuff on it...?

 

No, it's not just you. See my comments and those that followed several posts back in this thread.

MGD,

 

In the second Dick's picture, there is a bilboard on the boardwalk with the dubious "W" on it and "URS."

Do you have a close up of that? I am wondering what it says.

 

 

 

Sorry, Musky, I zoomed in and can't make anything out.  What do you mean "dubious 'W'?"

 

I'm curious about those two aerial renderings as well...is one more recent?  Also, did you guys notice that the taller buildings in the first rendering are much smaller in the second?

The W appears to be Woolpert Consultants logo. Which would make sense since URS consultants is also listed, as it what appears to be Cleveland's city logo.

What do you mean "dubious 'W'?"

 

I get scared when I see the letter "W" all by itself.

Can't tell you why... they're watching. :-o

Folks, that's the Wolstein Group's logo - I have a photo of that sign somewhere (just not readily accessible at the moment).

Yeck, knock it all down! Those things are hideous. Even if they were still active, they'd look horrible.

 

Does that whole area have to be "adult" oriented? If they are going for the cheesy Atlantic City look, why don't they have gaming arcades on the boardwalk with pizza/hotdog/hamburger places and a ferris wheel and other family-friendly/carnival-like things? Make it like an ocean boardwalk where everybody mixes -- families, teens with guitars, dancers, adults going to bars - don't program it. If you make it so people want to come, that'll all take care of itself. Put the cops all over the place just to make everyone feel safe. It seems to me if it's just a big strip of bars with nothing else to do, it's going to keep imploding. I'd be more interested in going there just to walk around on a Friday or Saturday night if there were all sorts of people. I have no interest in going into a pit of seedy bars -- and I'm 24 years old. No thanks Las Vegas... How about Cleveland's Coney Island instead? That's more my speed, at least.

 

Would it be possible to use that area as a staging area for a big sailboat race? I used to live in Michigan, and there they had the Port Huron to Mackinac Island sailboat race where thousands and thousands of people came to this small town during one weekend to see the race start and to see several hundred boats along a similar river setup. It was a huge attraction. I know Chicago does a race to Mackinac, too. It attracts boat people from all over the Great Lakes. Just some thoughts.

 

Great ideas. Marinas, races, boardwalks, rides, arcades, bars and restaurants = a thriving waterfront.

 

And I can't stop myself from commenting how suburban and corporate (these are not compliments) Wolsteins initial renderings look.  The Flats deserve better than "Crocker Park by the Sea."

Folks, that's the Wolstein Group's logo - I have a photo of that sign somewhere (just not readily accessible at the moment).

 

Now that makes even more sense!

Folks, that's the Wolstein Group's logo - I have a photo of that sign somewhere (just not readily accessible at the moment).

 

Now that makes even more sense!

 

too bad that "W" doesn't stand for the "W" hotel.  Hotels are something that I think that are missing from our "signature" neighborhoods.

^ Like those neighborhood-scale hotels you see in European cities? I like the idea, but they'd have to be very carefully watched by police and the building department to make sure they don't turn into "love shacks" where johns take hookers and pay for rooms by the hour. And I don't think Cleveland police or the building department has the manpower to keep after those things. I'm pretty leery of these, unless some reputable hotel chain starts up a subsidiary to run small, urban neighborhood-based hotels like those in Europe.

^ Like those neighborhood-scale hotels you see in European cities? I like the idea, but they'd have to be very carefully watched by police and the building department to make sure they don't turn into "love shacks" where johns take hookers and pay for rooms by the hour. And I don't think Cleveland police or the building department has the manpower to keep after those things. I'm pretty leery of these, unless some reputable hotel chain starts up a subsidiary to run small, urban neighborhood-based hotels like those in Europe.

 

No the W Hotel is a starwood brand (www.whotel.com or www.starwood.com)  I would like to see hotel on the west bank a hotel on the East bank, a hotel in Ohio City.  We need to start boosting our on regional economy.  Ohio City and Tremont is "hot" now, Although those areas are in close proximity to DT, if i'm on a leisure trip or a weekend getaway, why not be able to stay in Ohio City proper?  A hilton a sheraton could fit in nicely with the nabe.  Shaker Square, Univ. Circle, Edgewater, CSU are also underserved in that regard

^ I would like to see those there too, but there really isn't a demand for them.