That's the problem with Cleveland at this point. Every neighborhood is trying to become a place for dining or bars, since other retail is not viable yet. We can only maintain so many dining districts, so new areas will end up hurting older dining areas, or the new dining areas will just fail. I see the same issue with every neighborhood trying to become an arts neighborhood.

 

About 1000% correct.  This is exactly what I've been saying about trying to build new walkable residential neighborhoods from scratch, particularly vis a vis opposition to the Opportunity Corridor.  Even if you succeed, all you end up doing is draining the existing ones.  If a neighborhood wants to try that's all well and good, but spending general resources to do so is a waste and blocking other uses is worse.

what I really want to know, now that it has been a few days since Michelle's article (and since KJP did inquire) is where the additional apartments mentioned in the article are going .  I tend to agree with a number of posters that the riverfront building is not going any taller to accomodate the increase...so where?

 

Me, too. I specifically asked that question on their FB page right after they published those Phase II pics, but no response yet.

Agree, but if you dig deeper, they are not just dining districts.  Most of the districts have a core attraction that they company with dining.  For example, Gordon Square is the hub for local performance arts: CPT, Capitol, Near West.  Ohio City is a culinary art home for food and beer.  Waterloo is a music neighborhood. Tremont is the upscale vibrant neighborhood, University Circle is the global neighborhood.  I think what we are seeing is that neighborhoods are trying to establish their own identity, and along with that comes dining options.  The problem is that the Warehouse District (much like the Flats used to be) has no identity. Its just get slammed and party.

 

About 1000% correct.  This is exactly what I've been saying about trying to build new walkable residential neighborhoods from scratch, particularly vis a vis opposition to the Opportunity Corridor.  Even if you succeed, all you end up doing is draining the existing ones.  If a neighborhood wants to try that's all well and good, but spending general resources to do so is a waste and blocking other uses is worse.

 

You may not be saying the same thing as ClevelandOhio is, and you sure aren't saying the same thing I am. At least with me, arts & entertainment districts aren't necessarily the brand of all high-density, walkable neighborhoods. The brand of Shaker Square is different from Ohio City vs. Tremont vs. Asiatown vs. Little Italy vs. Gordon Square vs. University Circle. They're all higher-density, walkable neighborhoods. But they all have different characteristics, flavors, anchors, supportive businesses and housing styles.

 

But how is the brand of Flats East Bank different than that of the Warehouse District vs. East Fourth? Because we're eating and drinking next to the water in the Flats, next to parking lots in the Warehouse District, and in an alley on East Fourth? You're old enough to remember when The Flats "moved uphill" to the Warehouse District in the 1990s and then to East Fourth. So the impression is that Cleveland as a whole can support only one big entertainment district at a time. What downtown needs (how many times is that said?) is enduring districts with enduring brands like Playhouse Square, and even that migrated east up Euclid Avenue 90 years ago. Even a stalwart like that needs makeovers and changes in programming from time to time. But those aren't created. They're organic. The neighborhoods can support neighborhood-level retailers, restaurants and watering hole like Madison Avenue in Lakewood, Old Brooklyn, East 185th at Euclid-Collinwood, or Cedar-Fairmount in Cleveland Heights.

 

So will Flats East Bank just be a place to eat and drink next to the water? Is that the extent of its "hook"?

 

EDIT: BelievelandD1 said it more concisely than I did! And probably wrote it more quickly. I'd been working on this response for more than a half-hour!

That's the problem with Cleveland at this point. Every neighborhood is trying to become a place for dining or bars, since other retail is not viable yet. We can only maintain so many dining districts, so new areas will end up hurting older dining areas, or the new dining areas will just fail. I see the same issue with every neighborhood trying to become an arts neighborhood.

 

About 1000% correct.  This is exactly what I've been saying about trying to build new walkable residential neighborhoods from scratch, particularly vis a vis opposition to the Opportunity Corridor.  Even if you succeed, all you end up doing is draining the existing ones.  If a neighborhood wants to try that's all well and good, but spending general resources to do so is a waste and blocking other uses is worse.

 

This is pretty much my line of thinking.  It's fine to have new neighborhoods consisting of bars, clubs and restaurants, but that development needs to come  via organic growth, and demand, versus "plopping" it all in there by a single developer with deep pockets and several different funding sources.  Gordon Square, Ohio City and Tremont are good examples of organic growth, while the Flats is a good example of Crocker Park in the city.  The restaurants shown in the image on the previous page have as good of a shot succeeding there as they do in Ohio City, U Circle, Cleveland Heights, or Strongsville.  The Flats does not demand that development right now anymore than somewhere else in the city, or region. 

 

Also, another poster on the previous page commented that none of the establishments on E 4th closed to date.  I would not expect them too.  They are the ones that closed several WHD establishments.  And that's my fear with FEB.  They could be the achilles for E4th and the final gasp for the WHD. 

I'm still saying that FEB and WHD will just become one big district. They are so close there is no reason people would not walk between the two--and planners/city officials should work to connect the two. It can be a catalyst rather than a competitor. I understand the two may be marketed separately because of ownership, but the City can take steps to combine the two and make it easier to create an even bigger entertainment district

Dumb Q, but some of my food-related friends are asking - the word on the street is that "developers" are the ones telling all these restaurant owners that this is a great idea, to open a billion restaurants even when there's no mass of people for it, no growth of jobs and sometimes not even an existing vibrant neighborhood. Why would "developers" suggest this, if they are the ones who have their eye on the pulse? From what I've read here by those who are smart about urban planning and development, opening a bazillion restaurants is, in fact, not a great idea, so if it's not "developers" or urban planners, and the restaurant owners aren't coming up with the ideas on their own, what is happening?

^The developers are focusing on their development, not the overall effect of an oversaturation.  New restaraunts and neighborhoods tend to do well..... at least long enough for the developers to make a profit.  As for the restaraunts, they go through the financing process like everyone else.  If the math doesn't add up, they won't get financed.

 

Here on this board, we take into consideration such things as what effect a bunch of new restaraunts going into the FEB might have on E 4th, WHD, Tremont, OC, DS, LI, etc.  Wolstein and Co. don't.

 

Personally, I don't feel it is too much.  Especially considering that this development is bringing in new residents and helping support an added influx of visitors.  Then there is also the uniqueness factors like Toby Keith's bar, which should bring in visitors from the exurbs and beyond who may have never had any interest in coming downtown. 

 

I can't think of a vibrant downtown which didn't have tons of restaraunts and bars.  I've been to a few relatively "dead" downtowns in which you really have to search to find a decent spot to eat.  And I'm sure you've noticed in your foodie discussions, that our food scene is one reason people implore tourists to visit here.  Might as well keep building on a strength IMO

I actually completely agree with you. I've been having the argument for several days now with people, in the wake of Accent's closing, as to what is "too many" or "too much." The food people tend to take the side that the big bad developers are luring them in and there aren't enough people here to support that big of a restaurant infrastructure, and hence places like Accent tragically closing. I just don't know that I buy that.

Everybody forgets that the only competition isn't in the city itself, but in the suburbs, too.  Like Hts said, I think FEB will draw a lot of people who wouldn't come Downtown or to OC or Tremont for sophisticated local joints, but might like the more chainy places being built there.  I think it's real competition is Crocker Park and Legacy Village.

Everybody forgets that the only competition isn't in the city itself, but in the suburbs, too.  Like Hts said, I think FEB will draw a lot of people who wouldn't come Downtown or to OC or Tremont for sophisticated local joints, but might like the more chainy places being built there.  I think it's real competition is Crocker Park and Legacy Village.

There is a reason there is not a B Spot Downtown. I assume it's the "suburban allure" of driving your car to it and parking in the lot outside of the strip mall. It seems to be a no-brainer to me to put one Downtown, but maybe they don't want the competition.

^ Actually, there is a B Spot Downtown...it's in the casino :)

 

I know it's a bit different than having an outward facing location on the street, but it is there.

^Technically speaking, there are three B Spots downtown, just inside buildings. I recently spoke with business people from Atlanta that knew the B Spot was in the casino and went there just to eat.

Thinking about how the projected apartment units went from 140 to 245 look at the below renderings. The first image is part of the Phase l site plan. The second rendering is part of the Phase ll announcement. The building in Phase ll goes completely around. So that may be where the extra units are coming from.

^I asked about the location of the additional apartments a few days ago (as did KJP).  No response from anybody in the know yet but at the time I was thinking exactly what Freethink posted.  That they are going behind the riverfront building in a section that was not going to be initially built in phase 2 but now will be.  I sure wish Michelle or somebody could confirm this or offer another location.

If that is not the case, perhaps they decided to build more, but smaller units.

Isn't this a Planned Unit Development? If so, the footprint of the buildings cannot change without a rezoning request. So it makes sense that a revised Phase II plan builds out more of what was originally planned for all phases.

 

RE the discussion about the competing bar/restaurant districts, I have no problem with new areas emerging.

Usually the newer areas, or the establishments within them, are a step above in terms of design standards, maybe walkability, signage and just overall environment.

This raises the standards and other places for the most part cannot rest on their laurels, and languish.

This may even be truer in this city and others like it, where the entertainment "pie" is always cut into smaller pieces because of  population stagnation.

From the renderings of the FEB II, it looks like a fun environment  -- bright and walkable even though its chain haven.

It'll be interesting to see

^ Couldn't agree more. The strong and the best will survive. You are really over thinking it when you try to micro-manage the process. In larger 24/7 cities restaurants and night clubs open and close everyday. It's not an indication of failure, It's part of the natural order of things.

great news to hear they added more apts back into the mix. gotta keep moving'em in downtown, that's the key!

 

Someone was earlier asking about the height of the Ernst & Young building.  I just saw in Wikipedia that it is 330 feet and is the 15th tallest building in Cleveland now.  They also have a new picture of the cleaned Breuer tower.

Folks... those of you who have been around a while know when your post is taking a thread off-topic. I know some posted rather lengthy comments in this thread but scroll up, read the title. Then, read it again. For those who want their posts, I can retrieve them from 'post purgatory' - at my earliest convenience.

 

MayDay, I realize the posts may have drifted somewhat, but some important points were being made on both sides... Maybe they can/should be shifted to retail, but the discussion should be kept alive. Please consider...

^Of course, but again - it's best for everyone when those important points are made in the right place the first time :-)

^... OK, I know you've got a very tough job to do and do it well ... but let's hope there's a new home/thread for those ideas... somewhere...

State awards $3 million grant for cleanup work at Flats East Bank project site

 

COLUMBUS, Ohio—The city of Cleveland has been awarded a $3 million state grant to help cover cleanup costs for the Flats East Bank project, state officials announced Friday.

 

The large-scale development will encompass a large portion of the Flats, creating more than 300,000 square feet of retail and office space as well as 72 residential units, the Ohio Development Services Agency said in a release.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2013/11/state_awards_3_million_grant_f.html#incart_river

72 residential units? Hopefully thats a typo, or this isnt talking about all of phase 2...

This sounds like a third phase. Isn't it a bit late to be preparing site cleanup for phase 2 when groundbreaking for construction could be starting any day?

Zashin & Rich law firm leases last full floor of Ernst & Young Tower at Flats East Bank project

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Zashin & Rich Co. has leased the last full floor of the Ernst & Young Tower at the Flats East Bank project.

 

The law firm, which has roughly 45 attorneys and staff members in downtown Cleveland, expects to move in June from 55 Public Square to the fourth floor of the Ernst & Young building.

 

Bucking the space-shedding trend, Zashin & Rich is expanding its footprint, which will grow from just under 14,300 square feet in its current offices to 21,000 square feet in the city's first new private office tower in decades.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2013/11/zashin_rich_law_firm_leases_la.html#incart_river_default

Are any of the tenants new to downtown? The city? County? Or state?

Virtually none. All the law firms were already downtown, as was E&Y.

But remember this law firm is taking on more space which is a good thing vacancy rates. 

But remember this law firm is taking on more space which is a good thing vacancy rates. 

But remember most all of the others took less space than they had.

Yea this is always an interesting dilemma for me. On the one hand you need to continue to create new Class A office space to retain tenants downtown, but on the other hand you end up creating a glut of office space. Hopefully more and more residential conversions can take on the vacated office space, or more office space can be converted to Class A.

Yea this is always an interesting dilemma for me. On the one hand you need to continue to create new Class A office space to retain tenants downtown, but on the other hand you end up creating a glut of office space. Hopefully more and more residential conversions can take on the vacated office space, or more office space can be converted to Class A.

 

The new office products offered by Flats East Bank aren't creating open spaces in older downtown office buildings. The tenants are. Their needs have changed a lot since the last new leasable office building (Federal courthouse tower isn't leasable) was built downtown more than 20 years ago. These office users need the highest quality, most prestigious and most efficient space available. The Class B or C office spaces they were occupying was going to be vacated. That's not the issue. The question is, where were the users going? To Class A office space in other cities, in the suburbs or downtown? A friend of mine who meets clients around the world described the Flats East Bank office tower and Aloft hotel equal to the newest, most advanced buildings he's seen in places like New York, Frankfurt, Abu Dhabi and elsewhere.

 

Fortunately, we have new users coming into the old Class B and C office spaces -- apartments, for the most part. And the owners of some of these Class B and C buildings where office occupancy rates are struggling to reach or exceed 70 percent, are foaming at the mouth when they hear about downtown housing occupancy rates of 95 percent of better. If they can assemble the financing (including winning a limited number of historic tax credits), they are more than happy to trade their half-full office building (meaning they will kick out the office renters to land somewhere...) for a nearly full residential building.

 

Those office users have to go somewhere. And again, the question is do they move to the suburbs or stay downtown? And if they are to stay downtown, then downtown has to offer the latest in prestige, design, technology and efficiency. How many leasable office buildings downtown are newer than 30 years of age? I count only seven: 200 Public Square, North Point, Skylight Office Tower, US Bank Center, Key Tower, Fifth Third tower and Flats East Bank. And only one of those was built in the past 20 years. That's a long time between fresh office products.

so to keep existing tenits in the city in older buildings, new class A office towers should be built?

If your question was asked without "in older buildings," then the answer is: yes, as long as the market continues to demand new office products. However, I don't understand your question as you've stated it.

^^^ Also, the housing that can be built from the converted Class B and C office spaces that go vacant during this trickle down process can be more affordable than new construction housing would be.

Trickle-down process is a good description. I also think of it as what happens to clothes, toys and bedrooms in a family with multiple children. As the older child grows out of them, they get passed down to the next-oldest child, and then the next and so on.

 

So the larger companies that can afford a nicer office setting move out of the older office building, leaving it for smaller companies, new-starts and nonprofits to move into. And when the next, more modern office building becomes available to the smaller companies and non-profits, the older building finds new life as a hotel or housing. And that's the MO for Cleveland right now.

I went for a run past FEB this afternoon and I am pleased to report that the foundations for Flip Side, etc are being dug as I write this.  Progress!

^could you elaborate on "ect".  Isn't Flip Side all by itself on that small odd sized parcel across from the hotel up against the rapid tracks.  What else is being "dug".

I don't think that's what the construction is.  They are still digging the infrastructure, storm sewers, etc for the next phase.  Lots of work before any building foundations get started.  I could be wrong but I'm looking at it from my office

^could you elaborate on "ect".  Isn't Flip Side all by itself on that small odd sized parcel across from the hotel up against the rapid tracks.  What else is being "dug".

 

yes, exactly.  they're digging up that odd parcel.

I don't think that's what the construction is.  They are still digging the infrastructure, storm sewers, etc for the next phase.  Lots of work before any building foundations get started.  I could be wrong but I'm looking at it from my office

 

oops, sorry!  i don't know a ton about building methods and assumed they already had infrastructure under that parcel?  sorry everyone.  all i can confirm is that digging is happening hahah.

phase 2 is planned to break ground this year. is the funding complete and will it break ground this year?

Finally heard back from the FEB people on their Facebook page, after bugging them a little; I had asked about whether floors were being added to the curvy building to get to 225 apartments:

 

"There are of course many moving parts to a development of this nature and the building you reference is still in the design phase. As of today, the residential space is slated to be 225+ units on six floors above a retail ground floor. Pending any unforeseen issues, phase II should break ground in early 2014."

So maybe they added more one bedroom apartments and scaled down in the size the larger apartments?  I believe it was always seven floors.

... Pending any unforeseen issues, phase II should break ground in early 2014."

 

Wow, yet another groundbreaking push back  … this time, until early next year, along with  squishy words like “should” (break ground) added to an “ unforeseen issues” caveat.  Seems Fairmount still can’t close the financing on this deal, even after the substantial County subsidy, extensive City infrastructure improvements and what should be money flowing from what appears to be the great success of Phase I (fully leased office tower; enormously popular new hotel and upscale eateries) …  Can someone reassure me that Phase II will, indeed, happen?  … Paul in Cleveland?  Michelle? … Adam Fishman?

 

 

Well, early 14 is just a month and a half away.  I don't remember when they were supposed to break ground, originally.

... Pending any unforeseen issues, phase II should break ground in early 2014."

 

Wow, yet another groundbreaking push back  … this time, until early next year, along with  squishy words like “should” (break ground) added to an “ unforeseen issues” caveat.  Seems Fairmount still can’t close the financing on this deal, even after the substantial County subsidy, extensive City infrastructure improvements and what should be money flowing from what appears to be the great success of Phase I (fully leased office tower; enormously popular new hotel and upscale eateries) …  Can someone reassure me that Phase II will, indeed, happen?  … Paul in Cleveland?  Michelle? … Adam Fishman?

 

They can & will close the financing.  It's not something that is easily done though, which is why you haven't seen major new construction of residential apartments downtown since....  Crittenden?  Designs & floorplans get tweaked to get the maximum efficiencies before they go back to the financing table with a FINAL number