Posted August 22, 200618 yr The City of Carmel, Indiana is located just north of Indianapolis outside of the I-465 beltway. This city has come to a crossroads on which direction to head in, and they have choosen one that is often not by most communities. They have decided to implement density, smart growth, and new urbanist principles into their future development/redevelopment goals. UCPlanner and myself traveled their over the last weekend and explored their downtown and a development called West Clay. We were amazed with what we found and inspired by what CAN happen with new development as opposed to what normally happens. First off we found a condo development just outside of downtown Carmel: Just down the street was some other new development...I guess its your typical auto-repair/oil change businesses: Now downtown, there is a lot of infill development taking place with more to come: Here are some of the existing bldgs (the first bldgs are a couple of years old): UCPlanner going in for some cash (fake): Some cool dude just hangin' with a local: Now here is the West Clay development: First off some of the single-family housing stock (notice no driveways and unique architecture). This development has trails, rear-loaded garages on alleyways, and has small lots/setbacks. Here is the community center: with higher density, commercial uses, parks, and gathering places: Well so long for now, I will treat you with some downtown Indy next. For more photos of Carmel check out my photobucket site for the entire collection: http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/UncleRando/ I'll leave you with my favorite pic from the trip (already saw it): Here are a couple other projects going on in Carmel, Indiana: Anson This is one of the first projects I know of that is trying to mix light industrial uses with residential space. Gramercy: Project Info City Council just approved this project to move forward (with resident opposition to the density)...it is supposed to imitate an early 20th century Manhattan. City Center Carmel City Center is the at the site of the picture with the large dirt area. The project is under way and foundations were being laid.
August 22, 200618 yr Great pics UncleRando, Carmel and the Indy area is really starting to implement smart growth, sustainable principles. (Not perfect, but they are on their way) Now, if we only could get the Civic leaders and developers to support and build more of these projects in the Cincy area. Maybe one of the communities in the Cincy area will started the movement. Lets see... I wonder which community that might be?
August 22, 200618 yr That really looks good. The majority of the architecture and construction looks like it's of pretty high quality overall. That said, and this can be seen in NU projects across the country, builders still have a long way to go when it comes to large apartment buildings. If you'd like to check out another good neighborhood within driving distance, I'd recommend Norton Commons, just north of Louisville. It's still in the first few phases, but what I've seen looks really good. http://www.nortoncommons.com/
August 23, 200618 yr A poor man's New Albany ;). "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
August 23, 200618 yr While I'm certainlyglad to see development like this, I have to wonder if there is anything historic around it. Infill or urbanist developments in an older city are in an attempt to compliment the existing/restore what was, etc., but building an entirely new community in this way gives me an impression of fakeness.
August 23, 200618 yr In the thirteenth picture you can see a store called Addendum...hahaha. I travelled with the owner of that store when he opened it to help buy his merchandise. Carmel, at one time, was mostly simple ranch homes. Now, many of those are being torn down for projects like Carmel City Center or Gramercy. In ten years Carmel will be one of the preeminent edge cities in America...and it will all be thanks to their head strong mayor, Jim Brainard.
August 23, 200618 yr I guess that's what having the coveted unigov gets you. Looks really nice! Now if only Cincinnati and Hamilton county would merge... imagine the possibilities.
August 23, 200618 yr While I'm certainlyglad to see development like this, I have to wonder if there is anything historic around it. Infill or urbanist developments in an older city are in an attempt to compliment the existing/restore what was, etc., but building an entirely new community in this way gives me an impression of fakeness. While some of the development is on green fields. The downtown development and Gramercy will be on redevelopment sites, not green fields. I would also like to see more and more redevelopment then green field development. Not just in Indy or Carmel but across the midwest.
August 23, 200618 yr Carmel is pretty, but I don't know if I would necessarily call it a success story; while perhaps well-designed, it's still indicative of the problem of urban sprawl. Carmel is located approximately 20 miles north of downtown Indy and is home to a growing number of wealthy, white Hoosiers. Between 2000 and 2005, the Census Bureau estimates that Carmel's population doubled, while Indianapolis' population fell. Per capita income in Carmel is about double the national average; Indianapolis' is on par with the national average. Carmel is more than 90% Caucasian; Indianapolis is more than 30% minority. So while I commend them for their design standards if they've actually improved (Carmel always struck me as kinda cookie cutter when I was over that way), I think it's reflective of a really disappointing national trend ... building new and well-conceived infrastructure for the haves and neglecting or outright interfering with infrastructure for the have-nots. Sorry, didn't mean to rain on your guys' photos; I'm sure it's a nice place in its own right. As far as that area goes, I'm personally a fan of the architecture/preservation in my alma mater city - Franklin, IN, about 20 mins. south of downtown Indy, and in Greenfield, to the city's east.
August 23, 200618 yr ^I would say that this is more of a result of good design being its downfall. If these kinds of developments were more of the norm rather than the exception I would expect that one could find more affordable homes in these communities. However, that just isn't the case. And IMO good design will always fetch high prices when done correctly. It will only come down to earth when it is readily available to everyone.
August 23, 200618 yr I guess that's what having the coveted unigov gets you. Looks really nice! Now if only Cincinnati and Hamilton county would merge... imagine the possibilities. Carmel is north of Indianapolis/Marion County...it is actually in Hamilton County, i believe (and if anyone ever wants to talk about a conservative Hamilton County, they should talk about the one in Indiana moreso than the one in Ohio). So i guess unigov can't take much credit for this...(unless for some reason people really don't want to live within the City of Indianapolis, then I guess unigov played a part in this :-))
August 24, 200618 yr Does anyone use those beautiful public spaces? If so, and people could get to them without driving, then I would call Carmel a success story. The fact that it is not in Marion County, and is in fact the child of sprawl makes me skeptical ...
August 24, 200618 yr yes people were using those public spaces. I don't know if Rando got a shot of it but there was a family and a group of kids playing in the park as we were taking pictures. There were people walking and biking EVERYWHERE. ...it is the first NEW development that felt ...well...planned
August 24, 200618 yr Does anyone use those beautiful public spaces? If so, and people could get to them without driving, then I would call Carmel a success story. The fact that it is not in Marion County, and is in fact the child of sprawl makes me skeptical ... Yes, as UCPlanner stated, there were many people using those spaces. For example: -A father and son were playing catch -A group of children were playing tag...or something of that nature -A family (mom and 2 children) were taking a bike ride along the bike/walking path through the community -A group of friends were enjoying dinner outside an italian restaurant -A couple was walking their dogs through a park -A couple of guys were tossing football in a little park -And people were walking/biking everywhere It got to a point where I thought to myself..."I'm in utopia!" It was that awesome! It was great to see almost no cars in use throughout the entire neighborhood. The parks and businesses were being used but the only vehicular traffic was that of people returning home from work (outside of the community). Otherwise everyone walked and biked all over.....most houses had a bike sitting outside somewhere as if it had been just used. GREAT PLACE!
August 24, 200618 yr I lived in Kentlands for a while and if there are any similarities, the public spaces and parks get used a lot by residents if planned well.
August 24, 200618 yr well bravo some geniuses rediscovered the charms of once common main street america....except as 8shades said it seems like they took out the common americans part. :wtf: i mean don't get me wrong, of course i applaud the new urbanism design at work, but the social engineering part seems appalling & i could never live there (to be fair, it's the same as in many burbs in that apparent respect). welcome to balkan america!
August 24, 200618 yr “But for the present age, which prefers the sign to the thing signified, the copy to the original, representation to reality, appearance to essence . . . truth is considered profane, and only illusion is sacred. " —Feuerbach, Preface to the second edition of The Essence of Christianity
August 24, 200618 yr i mean don't get me wrong, of course i applaud the new urbanism design at work, but the social engineering part seems appalling & i could never live there (to be fair, it's the same as in many burbs in that apparent respect). welcome to balkan america! Very true...I couldn't agree with you more. These developments across the nation are consistantly leaving out middle and lower-class America. I believe that this kind of development needs to become more mainstream in order for it to start reaching middle-class America. Its just too unique right now for everyone to have it (not my concept, but rather capitalism's concept). :|
August 24, 200618 yr Their cheap attempt at Georgian architecture *Thumbs down* Their cheap attempt at Italianate architecture *Thumbs up*
August 25, 200618 yr I like the efforts obviously, but it does have that sanitized Seaside/Easton look to it.
August 25, 200618 yr i mean don't get me wrong, of course i applaud the new urbanism design at work, but the social engineering part seems appalling & i could never live there (to be fair, it's the same as in many burbs in that apparent respect). welcome to balkan america! While many of the homes in the Village of West Clay are expensive, the condos near the town square are starting in the mid 100s. I would consider that affordable to middle class. In Fishers (another town on the northside of Indy) M/I is building new urbanist neighborhoods with homes starting around 150,000. So, some of the prices for starter homes in these new urbanist developments are affordable to middle income america. But, I agree overall they still have a way to go. Very true...I couldn't agree with you more. These developments across the nation are consistantly leaving out middle and lower-class America. I believe that this kind of development needs to become more mainstream in order for it to start reaching middle-class America. Its just too unique right now for everyone to have it (not my concept, but rather capitalism's concept). :|
August 25, 200618 yr i mean don't get me wrong, of course i applaud the new urbanism design at work, but the social engineering part seems appalling & i could never live there (to be fair, it's the same as in many burbs in that apparent respect). welcome to balkan america! Very true...I couldn't agree with you more. These developments across the nation are consistantly leaving out middle and lower-class America. I believe that this kind of development needs to become more mainstream in order for it to start reaching middle-class America. Its just too unique right now for everyone to have it (not my concept, but rather capitalism's concept). :| While many of the homes in the Village of West Clay are expensive, the condos near the town square are starting in the mid 100s. I would consider that affordable to middle class. In Fishers (another town on the northside of Indy) M/I is building new urbanist neighborhoods with homes starting around 150,000. So, some of the prices for starter homes in these new urbanist developments are affordable to middle income america. But, I agree overall they still have a way to go. Sorry for the messed up quote above.
August 25, 200618 yr i mean don't get me wrong, of course i applaud the new urbanism design at work, but the social engineering part seems appalling & i could never live there (to be fair, it's the same as in many burbs in that apparent respect). welcome to balkan america! While many of the homes in the Village of West Clay are expensive, the condos near the town square are starting in the mid 100s. I would consider that affordable to middle class. In Fishers (another town on the northside of Indy) M/I is building new urbanist neighborhoods with homes starting around 150,000. So, some of the prices for starter homes in these new urbanist developments are affordable to middle income america. But, I agree overall they still have a way to go. Very true...I couldn't agree with you more. These developments across the nation are consistantly leaving out middle and lower-class America. I believe that this kind of development needs to become more mainstream in order for it to start reaching middle-class America. Its just too unique right now for everyone to have it (not my concept, but rather capitalism's concept). :| well thank you for that info. that is very heartening to hear that they are inviting in the middle class and maybe even lower middle class with those prices. good to hear. however, where are the pj's, mixed income and the cheap sro's and stuff like that? --- don't forget those are the things the "real" main street usa used to have. it's all fairly new construction so they have a real opportunity to do something there and they are turning their back on it. so for example as they keep building where's the help gonna live? oh well, i guess they don't mind trailer parks on the edge of town. i certainly agree something like this that once was the standard layout of any small town in america is now seen as so new and unique and frankly exclusive right now.
January 23, 200718 yr I like the idea of constructing new old, I just wish they would put this method to use in downtown Indy, other than that, it really doesen't give Carmel an urban feel, this is just my opinion, but I find it kinda fake.
January 23, 200718 yr Does anyone use those beautiful public spaces? If so, and people could get to them without driving, then I would call Carmel a success story. The fact that it is not in Marion County, and is in fact the child of sprawl makes me skeptical ... Yes, as UCPlanner stated, there were many people using those spaces. For example: -A father and son were playing catch -A group of children were playing tag...or something of that nature -A family (mom and 2 children) were taking a bike ride along the bike/walking path through the community -A group of friends were enjoying dinner outside an italian restaurant -A couple was walking their dogs through a park -A couple of guys were tossing football in a little park -And people were walking/biking everywhere It got to a point where I thought to myself..."I'm in utopia!" It was that awesome! It was great to see almost no cars in use throughout the entire neighborhood. The parks and businesses were being used but the only vehicular traffic was that of people returning home from work (outside of the community). Otherwise everyone walked and biked all over.....most houses had a bike sitting outside somewhere as if it had been just used. GREAT PLACE! Sounds like steroetype land, I agree about a good flow of pedestrian traffic, but really, by the way you state it, it sounds like Carmel is a city of one ethnic group and of stereotypes, I would not want to live there.
January 23, 200718 yr Sounds like steroetype land, I agree about a good flow of pedestrian traffic, but really, by the way you state it, it sounds like Carmel is a city of one ethnic group and of stereotypes, I would not want to live there. Maybe you mean something else, but I don't understand your description of 'stereotype land' for Carmel...what is the stereotype that is being portrayed?? Oh...and just to throw some actual substance behind any of these claims...here is the census data for Carmel, IN: City of Carmel: 37,733 White 34,951 (total population) 92.6% (% of population) Black or African American 555 1.5% American Indian and Alaska Native 52 0.1% Asian 1,651 4.4% Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander 17 0.0% Hispanic or Latino 649 1.7% Some other race 173 0.5% Two or more races 334 0.9%
January 23, 200718 yr I like the idea of constructing new old, I just wish they would put this method to use in downtown Indy, I would say the Fall Creek Place Neighborhood near downtown Indianapolis does a pretty good job of this.
January 23, 200718 yr ^Thats a pretty cool pic on their homepage...I love how the city looms in the background!
January 23, 200718 yr Sounds like steroetype land, I agree about a good flow of pedestrian traffic, but really, by the way you state it, it sounds like Carmel is a city of one ethnic group and of stereotypes, I would not want to live there. Maybe you mean something else, but I don't understand your description of 'stereotype land' for Carmel...what is the stereotype that is being portrayed?? Oh...and just to throw some actual substance behind any of these claims...here is the census data for Carmel, IN: City of Carmel: 37,733 White 34,951 (total population) 92.6% (% of population) Black or African American 555 1.5% American Indian and Alaska Native 52 0.1% Asian 1,651 4.4% Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander 17 0.0% Hispanic or Latino 649 1.7% Some other race 173 0.5% Two or more races 334 0.9% Thats really not that diverse, and as stereotype, I mean, the guys playing football and the other people.
January 23, 200718 yr I like the idea of constructing new old, I just wish they would put this method to use in downtown Indy, I would say the Fall Creek Place Neighborhood near downtown Indianapolis does a pretty good job of this. Yah fall creek does, and it really looks great! But I think they should use these methods like along the canal, or as downtown urban infill, especially on Meridian street, I mean becuase, just becuase its a new structure doesen't mean it has to look new.
January 23, 200718 yr Thats really not that diverse, and as stereotype, I mean, the guys playing football and the other people. No, its not that diverse...I just thought some facts would be interesting to bring into the conversation. Oh, and I don't think you get what a stereotype is...your interpretation seems a bit off (unless I'm still misunderstanding).
January 23, 200718 yr No, its just the way you put it, it sounds like the 50's stereotype kind of place, not much really going on, or maybe I misunderstood you.
February 15, 200718 yr The architecture in this development to me is easy on the eyes, but I am worried that developers are still ignoring sustainable development guidelines. I am not very familiar with this area or development can any one tell me if there was anything sustainable outside of the green space in this community. Like is there any alternate energy sources or is there any alternate modes of transportation for people traveling to work. Like some have previously stated the development looks good, but what about the social and environmental cost. I don’t know if the average person would ask these questions but being a planner I think about things like this when I look at these photos.
February 15, 200718 yr That is a beautiful development. A variety of home styles and downtown structures help recreate what was has been lost in all too many cities. Rando, you stated in one photograph of the downtown that they were doing "infill", however, it appeared to me that everything was new ;) These places will grow on you the more they age. I have photographs of Lexington, Kentucky's now-classy neighborhoods taken in the 1920's and 1930's. They were quite barren and hardly pleasant. No vegetation or trees to speak of, and the houses did not have much character to them. Yes, they featured siding or brick facades, but there were no window treatments, no lawn ornaments, etc. Jump forward to today, it is one of those coveted treasures. Houses feature distinctive characteristics that make them stand out from their neighbors. From varied window treatments to updated facades, brick driveways, porches, etc., the neighborhood has aged wonderfully. I would surmise that 30 years from now, Carmel will look drastically different... for the better! Currently, I look at some of the images and see relative blandness. Yes, the houses are distinct and quite beautiful, but there isn't much character to them - and it is something you should not expect for another ten years at the least. Break the house in. Let the owners spin their own goodness into the property. And etc. I'm probably not making sense. It's just one lumpy cluster in my head that is probably best explained in person...
February 25, 200718 yr I was commissioned to do renderings for the Carmel Urban Design Initiative... here are some highlights. http://www.pbase.com/archetype/carmel_cudi Here is the document by EDEN Land Design Inc. http://www.carmel.in.gov/services/DOCS/DOCSCUDI.htm
February 25, 200718 yr Nice renderings. I really hope Carmel gets it mass transit in the near future and that they continue to have leadership that moves the city in the direction it is going.
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