Is 1314 Vine the buidling that used to be a fastfood chicken restaurant?

The bright purple building. It's nothing to cry about on the inside.

It has a nice cast iron storefront and an incredible metal cornice, but it is only 2 stories tall and the original brick is covered with dryvit or stucco.  I think it is very doubtful that the HCB will allow demolition.

I heard from not the most reliable sources that the purple paint was from a botched attempt to turn it into a nightclub.

 

Yeah its not the most significant building, but I'm tried of seeing old stuff in Cincy get demolished, maybe saving a less significant building will send a signal that preservationists are serious about preserving the more significant stuff.

A lot of preservationists are going crazy about this building and it drives me nuts.  In the time it takes for them to sue 3CDC, get stuck in court, and potentially delay the project, it's likely that another 4 or 5 abandoned buildings (with absentee landlords) will burn down from neglect and homeless people living in them.  Yes-  It is always sad when a building comes down- but I'll never get why the preservationist community doesn't help OTR ADOPT more, or try to buy up buildings that are condemned and have absentee landlords where there is no multi-million dollar company to sue.

 

If 3CDC tears down one relatively not attractive, not highly useable building (it did used to be a dance club, big open space inside) in order to renovate 19 others (many of which are gorgeous), I'll still sleep at night.  I wish preservationists would stop suing CPS, Rock Ventures (it's being discussed) and 3CDC and start going after buildings on the cities 28 most vulnerable list- many of which have absentee landlords who would sign the building over for a couple thousand dollars at max.

 

In other news:  March is 3CDC's goal for ground breaking. 

According to the site plan this building sits exactly where the planned entrance to the garage is going to go.  Review of the plan indicates up to 5 buildings will be demolished (3 along an alley at 14th and Boots alley, 1 at the corner of Walnut and Mercer and the one on Vine.)  It would make sense to try to at least save the facade.  Not sure if the building is too big to move either.

It would be cool if they were to use the facade for a stylish entrance to the garage.

A lot of preservationists are going crazy about this building and it drives me nuts. In the time it takes for them to sue 3CDC, get stuck in court, and potentially delay the project, it's likely that another 4 or 5 abandoned buildings (with absentee landlords) will burn down from neglect and homeless people living in them. Yes- It is always sad when a building comes down- but I'll never get why the preservationist community doesn't help OTR ADOPT more, or try to buy up buildings that are condemned and have absentee landlords where there is no multi-million dollar company to sue.

 

If 3CDC tears down one relatively not attractive, not highly useable building (it did used to be a dance club, big open space inside) in order to renovate 19 others (many of which are gorgeous), I'll still sleep at night. I wish preservationists would stop suing CPS, Rock Ventures (it's being discussed) and 3CDC and start going after buildings on the cities 28 most vulnerable list- many of which have absentee landlords who would sign the building over for a couple thousand dollars at max.

 

In other news: March is 3CDC's goal for ground breaking.

 

Why have the Historic District Guidelines at all?  Everyone thinks that their project should be a special exception.

 

Unfortunately the guidelines have an exception for non-profit corporations which 3CDC may try to use:

 

(Demolition is not allowed unless...) "The owner is a non-profit corporation or organization and can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Historic Conservation Board that the denial of the application to demolish would also deny the owner the use of the property in a manner compatible with its organizational purposes and would amount to a taking of the owner’s property without just compensation. See Section 741-13(h)(3)."

 

3CDC's success in OTR depends on the historic fabric of the neighborhood.  They more than anyone, should recognize the value in saving these buildings.

 

What CPS did was criminal.  Demolish history for a dumpster pad. This time it is for a driveway.

^ I don't disagree with you.  But while 1500 other vacant buildings sit in OTR and collapse or burn down, many preservationists would rather get stuck in court with Rock Ventures, 3CDC or CPS instead of start buying these abandoned properties at $2000 or $3000 a piece and fixing them up. 

 

OTR Foundation put itself into a lot of debt to fight CPS.  I agree with the cause completely, but we have finite resources and can't afford the legal fees (as OTR foundation proved).

 

Additionally- 

Yes it is the purple buildings, three smaller buildings along the alley, two of which do not look like livable structures (they may have been garages/add ons) and it's unclear about the corner of 14 and mercer.  some images show it existing, others look like it will be replaced.  Very interesting.

>is 1314 Vine the buidling that used to be a fastfood chicken restaurant?

 

That was the Red Barn, which was just taken down in 2009.  1314 was for a brief time around 2002-03 Club Venus.  What was hilarious about it was The Warehouse was still open directly across the street, so there was a mini entertainment district there for a few months. 

 

Hard to believe that the so-called riot is going to celebrate its 10th anniversary this April.  The younger people reading this have no idea what the neighborhood was like in the 1990's and until about 2005. 

 

I wonder if anyone will develop the old warehouse.  Do you think it still has the floor with springs in it?  3CDC has had an "entertainment space available" sign there for about a year.  I'm sure once Mercer commons is opening the demand will be much higher in the area and those three buildings may get developed.

I wonder if anyone will develop the old warehouse. Do you think it still has the floor with springs in it? 3CDC has had an "entertainment space available" sign there for about a year. I'm sure once Mercer commons is opening the demand will be much higher in the area and those three buildings may get developed.

  The dance floor is still there.  It's a great building, albeit HUGE, and will require a very deep pocketed investor to do something with it.  The second level sub-basement is pretty cool.  If House of Blues ever re-starts their expansion, this would be ideal for someone like them.  See attached article: http://www.soapboxmedia.com/features/55soapdishwhatliesbeneath.aspx

 

 

It would be cool if they were to use the facade for a stylish entrance to the garage.

 

Now that's an idea.

1314 Vine, ca 1880, 3CDC bought from CPS in 2008.

According to the site plan this building sits exactly where the planned entrance to the garage is going to go. Review of the plan indicates up to 5 buildings will be demolished (3 along an alley at 14th and Boots alley, 1 at the corner of Walnut and Mercer and the one on Vine.) It would make sense to try to at least save the facade. Not sure if the building is too big to move either.

 

I've seen at least 2 different renderings of this project and I have no idea which, if either, are valid. Also, does anyone have any info/pics of the 3 structures to be demolished on the alley?

Good overview of the situation w/ 1314 Vine and Mercer Commons project:

 

The Fate of 1314 Vine Street and Mercer Commons

 

Yesterday, OTR-resident and blogger CityKin write a post about 1314 Vine Street titled “Does this building stay or go“. The post and its comments are an informative read and a good introduction to the subject of this post.

The Current Mercer Commons Plan

 

The time is now to discuss the fate of 1314 Vine Street and the current design of the planned Mercer Commons development by the public-private Cincinnati Center City Development Corporation (3CDC) in the Gateway Quarter.

 

Mercer Commons is a planned development of new construction urban infill and historic restorations in the area surrounding Mercer Street in Over-the-Rhine. The development is bounded by Vine Street to the west, Walnut Street to the east, 14th Street to the north and the northern half of the 1300 blocks of Vine and Walnut Streets. It is an exciting opportunity to turn another corner (excuse the cliché) in OTR’s revitalization.

Wow--I don't think I realized how big this will be.  I live in Trinity Flats, and this is going to dwarf that. 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2011/04/01/behind-the-plywood-covers-one-otr.html

 

...Chad Munitz, 3CDC’s executive vice president of development and operations, said Mercer Commons is still “in the schematic design phase” and said “the plans have not been finalized.”

 

“We are moving forward with our development partners and hope to have design completed in the next six months,” he said.

He said 3CDC is working with St. Louis-based McCormack Baron Salazar, whose past projects “have demonstrated innovative ways to incorporate new development within a historic district through a comprehensive approach.”

 

Members of the Over-the-Rhine Foundation board hope that means 3CDC and the developer will be open to saving 1314 Vine St. Over-the-Rhine already has lost roughly half its historic building stock over the years....

 

This is a pretty disappointing timeline...... 6 more months for final design?  I would have thought the Parvis lease up might have been a sign that the rental market in OTR is hot and they need to get this moving ASAP!  At this rate we'll be waiting for 2012 for ground to be broken and along the way Kasich might take notice of the $4mil Ohio Historic Preservation Grant and reallocate it to save barns in his home district.

Ya-  this project is slowed up for a few reasons. 

 

A primary one being that 3CDC wants to try something thats never been done before with regards to mixed-income housing. Rather than choose 30 apartments and designate them as low income, 3CDC wants to build everything equally and then simply make sure that at all times there are 30 low income units filled.  Of the total apartments, it could be any 30- those locations could change, etc. Someone new moves in and they get to choose from anything that's open- not just the "low-income" designated units.

 

They are expecting major delays by this process alone.

How are they financing this? Are they using the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit? Or some other funding mechanism? I ask because I know the LIHTC has restrictions on how units that are for low-income are filled v market rate units. i.e. low-income units are always low-income units.

This is a pretty disappointing timeline...... 6 more months for final design?  I would have thought the Parvis lease up might have been a sign that the rental market in OTR is hot and they need to get this moving ASAP!  At this rate we'll be waiting for 2012 for ground to be broken and along the way Kasich might take notice of the $4mil Ohio Historic Preservation Grant and reallocate it to save barns in his home district.

 

Patience, my friend. 3CDC is a small organization and has a lot on their plate right now (Washington Park/ finishing up Saegerhalle, Westfalen, & Parvis/ Metropole Hotel, etc) and this project particularily has many pieces.

Look at this way, aside from a few homes on Pleasant St, it doesn't look like there will be any new residential units built in OTR for at least another year. That is disappointing.

 

 

Look at this way, aside from a few homes on Pleasant St, it doesn't look like there will be any new residential units built in OTR for at least another year. That is disappointing.

 

This is false.

I don't mean to come off as negative.  3CDC does awesome work, along with others in the neighborhood. I'm just impatient I guess. I would not live here had it not been for 3CDC.

 

As far as my comment being false, please then do tell what you know.  A handful of units up by Findlay Market perhaps that the BDCURC has been working on.  Gateway Quarter there will not be much.  High quality rental is what is needed.

Ya-  this project is slowed up for a few reasons.  ...

 

Do you know why they are working with a firm based in St Louis (McCormack Baron Salazar) instead of a Cincinnati firm?

^ Specifically for MBS's strength in providing low income housing in new developments.  They have a track record of success for new multi-million dollar low income developments and 3CDC wants a strong partner as they propose this new model.

How are they financing this? Are they using the Low-Income Housing Tax Credit? Or some other funding mechanism? I ask because I know the LIHTC has restrictions on how units that are for low-income are filled v market rate units. i.e. low-income units are always low-income units.

 

This is why it's slowed up.  They want this changed but still want to receive the LIHTC. 

Here's some more info on 1314 Vine Street: http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/the-fate-of-1314-vine-street-and-mercer-commons/

 

Let's not forget that there are a number of projects in pre-development.

Ya-  While Mercer Commons seems to be delayed- 3CDC may be moving several other projects forward.  ie: 13th street between Race & Republic, the three boarded up buildings at 14th and Pleasant and the Weilerts building are all in pre-development, with some movement going on at the corner of 14th and pleasant recently (separate from City Home).

Ya-  While Mercer Commons seems to be delayed- 3CDC may be moving several other projects forward.  ie: 13th street between Race & Republic, the three boarded up buildings at 14th and Pleasant and the Weilerts building are all in pre-development, with some movement going on at the corner of 14th and pleasant recently (separate from City Home).

 

That would be cool.  On the OTR work group maps it shows "Current / Under Construction" projects and "Pre-Development" projects.  Mercer is listed as a current, while the others you mention are listed as predevelopment so I assumed they are in line behind Mercer but I suppose each project has its own timeline.  It would be great if they are accelerated as 13th St is going to be a gateway into the park.  3CDC via OTR holdings picked up more buildings in the area on the 1200 block of Republic and on the NW corner of 13th/Republic recently too. 

 

Color Building / Weilerts also got a good size historic preservation grant and I think Model planned on moving their offices to the Color Building, hopefully that kicks off soon.  I worry about those buildings...

 

 

More history on 1314 Vine

http://otrmatters.wordpress.com/2011/03/16/timeline-history-of-1314-vine-street/

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2011/04/01/behind-the-plywood-covers-one-otr.html

 

 

And don't forget about the recent acquisitions near 14th and Walnut

Next OTR project on horizon

3CDC says historic building must come down

10:06 PM, Jun. 11, 2011

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20110612/BIZ01/306120003/Next-OTR-project-horizon

 

OVER-THE-RHINE – The conflict has played out countless times in other venues, as developers and preservationists square off over tearing down historic buildings.

 

But this time, the purple stucco structure would be the first historic building demolished in Over-the-Rhine by Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. (3CDC). The nonprofit developer has spent the past five years investing more than $160 million in the neglected neighborhood, home to one of the largest collections of 19th Century Italianate architecture in the country.

 

 

Mercer Commons gets $5M state loan

Business Courier

Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 6:18am EDT

 

The Ohio Development Financing Advisory Council has approved a $5 million loan for the Mercer Commons project in Over-the-Rhine.

 

The $51 million development will bring commercial and housing development to a cluster of 20 buildings and 26 vacant parcels near the intersection of 14th and Vine streets.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/morning_call/2011/06/mercer-commons-gets-5m-state-loan.html

 

My latest post on Mercer Commons. Much has been said about 1314 Vine, but what about the other building on the chopping block? Namely, 1329 Walnut:

 

http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/the-fate-of-1329-walnut-and-mercer-commons/

My latest post on Mercer Commons. Much has been said about 1314 Vine, but what about the other building on the chopping block? Namely, 1329 Walnut:

 

http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/the-fate-of-1329-walnut-and-mercer-commons/

 

DUH!  In that case we need to rehab that building immediately, put in a wine shop called Deutshe Republik and have it be a tour stop on the American Legacy tours for its contribution to American Colonization history.  This sounds like an easy money maker, 3CDC.  Plus, that building is adorable, and it shares a party wall with another historic building that will be rehabbed.  I see no reason to tear it down.

3CDC will be making an informational presentation on Mercer Commons at the OTR Community Council meeting on Monday July 25.  The meeting starts at 5P, I would guess the presentation wouldn't start till 5:30 at the earliest.  Community Council meetings are held at the OTR Rec Center and are open to the public.

My latest post on Mercer Commons. Much has been said about 1314 Vine, but what about the other building on the chopping block? Namely, 1329 Walnut:

 

http://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/the-fate-of-1329-walnut-and-mercer-commons/

 

I know this position isn't popular here, but I think 1314 Vine and 1329 Walnut are not very attractive buildings, and they are currently standing in the way of a brilliantly designed project that has the potential to be THE game changer for OTR south of Liberty.  Mercer Commons will bring 155 residential units (almost as much as what has been completed to date in the Q), substantially increase the density in this section of OTR, which currently is a borderline urban prairie, and will bridge Vine and Main streets, finally creating an environment that encourages movement between the two commercial districts.  There are so many other abandoned buildings in OTR that are literally falling apart, and a major project like this could be a catalyst for private investment to save many of those buildings.  Sometimes we have to lose a few buildings to save many more, and with the quality of infill proposed, I don't feel bad at all losing these two buildings.  To make the development work economically, these buildings have to come down, and I think OTR is better for it.  The preservation community should applaud the progress 3CDC has been making, and focus their efforts on other streets that really need attention (I'm thinking Elm, Republic, the entire area by Findlay).

I agree that this project should not be derailed due to these two buildings. I still have hope that they can find a way to integrate them into the project in some manner. Unfortunately with the 1314 Vine building, so much has already been done to change the historic facade that I don't believe it to be worth saving. :-/ As sad as that is, it is a reality we must face. I'm not as familiar with the Walnut St. building to make a judgement.

 

** All opinions stated are just that. They are by no means professional judgements, just the opinions of a resident.

If they want to save the buildings so badly, they should move them somewhere else and rehab them.

Every old building in OTR has some trivial historical significance.  You can't save them all.  The building is an eyesore and wouldnt be very attractive even if it were restored to its full glory.  Tear it down.  The most biggest and best project in all of the Q awaits. 

Part of the historic character of Over-the-Rhine is the fabric and density of historic buildings, even the simple nondescript ones.  We are within a building or two of losing over 50% of the historic building stock.  At what point do you cease to have a historic neighborhood if you tear down everything that is "trivial"? 

i agree.  you only demo. as an absolute last resort.  yes this development is very important to OTR but there has to be a creative solution.

I agree.  Design around them.  It can be done and once the stucco is removed and the bay windows replaced, then will you see the true beauty of 1314.

I agree.  Design around with them.  It can be done and once the stucco is removed and the bay windows replaced, then will you see the true beauty of 1314.

 

 

You guys should try to get some kind of perspective from 3CDC or the architect on this before you write "journalism" pieces on the buildings that don't show up in their renderings. How much is actually salvageable? What's their current interior condition? What kind of obstacle do they actually pose to the development plan, from the developers or designers perspective?

 

I mean come on, some of you do actually work in this industry. This might not be as simple as just finding the Sanborn maps and creating an overnight celebrity out of a building shell that you don't really know that much about.

You guys should try to get some kind of perspective from 3CDC or the architect on this before you write "journalism" pieces on the buildings that don't show up in their renderings. How much is actually salvageable? What's their current interior condition? What kind of obstacle do they actually pose to the development plan, from the developers or designers perspective?

 

I mean come on, some of you do actually work in this industry. This might not be as simple as just finding the Sanborn maps and creating an overnight celebrity out of a building shell that you don't really know that much about.

 

I write the OTR blog. It's a blog with a fairly narrow audience so I wouldn't suggest anyone consider it "journalism". I'm interested to know how you would define "journalism", Civvik.

 

And FWIW, I know a lot more about this issue than I choose to air online.

 

The point of the post was to begin to articulate the history of 1329 Walnut like I did for 1314 Vine. Nothing more, nothing less. If the people of Cincinnati have a choice in the direction of Mercer Commons (and they most likely will through the HCB if 3CDC doesn't have it declared a PD), it'd be best they know something about the buildings that are currently on the chopping block.

 

You may notice I stated my support for 3CDC and Mercer Commons in the post and did not explicitly call for 1329 to be saved at all costs. 1329 is, however, the more significant and easily salvageable building of the two.

 

UPDATE: I forgot to mention that 3CDC will be presenting to the HCB about Mercer Commons at 3pm on Monday at Two Centennial Plaza, 7th floor.

Look, I think you do a nice job with your blog, but you're kind of talking out both sides of your mouth with the issue of these buildings by saying that you support the Mercer Commons development almost as a disclaimer in the posts about the buildings they want to knock down. Especially if you know more about them than you let on in your blog posts. So what's the agenda? It really does not seem clear to me.

 

I would think the highest aim would be to get 3CDC to articulate why they felt these two buildings had to go, and then presenting the historical background in that context. Without that context, these buildings seem like sacrificial lambs. There's already been unnecessary hackles raised over 1314 Vine.

 

I've said this here before: Not every old building becomes historic. We've got a whole mess of 20th century building stock that is going to hit the historic threshold in the next generation, and we've got to foster a pretty clear and pragmatic attitude about what's special and what's not, or the whole process is just going to turn into a shitstorm.

I support the preservation and development of OTR so I can see how you might think I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. Mercer Commons as it is currently designed is not 100% to my liking. However, I do not think that gives me license to impugn its merit. It holds great promise for OTR. That being said, each historic building in OTR matters to its historic fabric. Once an historic building is destroyed, it is gone forever.

 

So far, 3CDC has not involved the public in its proceedings about Mercer Commons or its potential demolitions of 1314 Vine and 1329 Walnut. Its presentation Monday at the HCB is a first step in the process.