I peered into the window of the Avril-Bleh "grocery" expansion while i was walking through the area on Sunday morning.  I hate to (but feel that I must) say that it looks like a big let down. For something with so much press, I was at surprised that it appears to be nothing more than a couple of sliding door refrigeration units (the kind that usually hold soft drinks), and maybe a couple of shelves.

 

It appeared to be significantly less product than the Silverglades on 8th, and not even close to what a typical downtown Walgreen's carries.

 

Sorry for not supressing my disappointment.

 

:-(

 

I actually agree w/ alabama.  Unfortunately I did not get a chance to go into the store (it closes at 5:30...another negative) but in peeking in, it looks like nothing more than a larger than average butcher shop and certainly not a grocery that we are all hoping for. 

I peered into the window of the Avril-Bleh "grocery" expansion while i was walking through the area on Sunday morning.  I hate to (but feel that I must) say that it looks like a big let down. For something with so much press, I was at surprised that it appears to be nothing more than a couple of sliding door refrigeration units (the kind that usually hold soft drinks), and maybe a couple of shelves.

 

It appeared to be significantly less product than the Silverglades on 8th, and not even close to what a typical downtown Walgreen's carries.

 

They actually have more than what you see from the outside, and they are still stocking their shelves.  They do carry fresh produce, cereal, dairy products, bread, pasta, canned goods, paper products, pop, ice cream, etc.  The deli counter has fresh made salads.  They owners are also very open to suggestions on what to carry as well. 

I peered into the window of the Avril-Bleh "grocery" expansion while i was walking through the area on Sunday morning.  I hate to (but feel that I must) say that it looks like a big let down. For something with so much press, I was at surprised that it appears to be nothing more than a couple of sliding door refrigeration units (the kind that usually hold soft drinks), and maybe a couple of shelves.

 

It appeared to be significantly less product than the Silverglades on 8th, and not even close to what a typical downtown Walgreen's carries.

 

Sorry for not supressing my disappointment.

 

:-(

 

I actually agree w/ alabama.  Unfortunately I did not get a chance to go into the store (it closes at 5:30...another negative) but in peeking in, it looks like nothing more than a larger than average butcher shop and certainly not a grocery that we are all hoping for. 

 

??  You should find a way to actually go inside the store before passing judgment.    I realize that the hours are less than ideal, however they are open Saturday as well.  Go in and tell them they need to try and stay open until at least 7, if it makes business sense.  They stock a lot more than Silverglades, and will adjust inventory as the business dictates.  The breadth of the inventory, from frozen products to fresh fruit and vegetables to household products, is pretty expansive for what is essentially a "convenience store," albeit one with access to fresh produce and excellent butcher products.  The house-made frozen options should also not be overlooked.  Also not sure how many other places downtown (outside of Madison's at Findlay) that stock both Madisono's and Agalamesis bros., certainly not Walgreen's.

 

Hopefully they will modulate the hours and inventory to meet the needs of the customers.  This type of "experiment" needs to be successful in order for downtown residents to move forward in the search for their holy grail (the much coveted, elusive and quasi-mythical beast known as the "downtown grocery store"). 

Avril-Bleh & Sons Meat Market expands

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081215/BIZ01/812150317/1055/NEWS

 

Avril-Bleh & Sons Meat Market, a longtime meat market and deli at 33 E. Court St., has expanded the business to offer more items.

 

Owner Leonard Bleh said the business has acquired a building next door and is using the added 1,300 square feet to offer a new menu that includes breakfast and lunch items.

 

Prices for breakfast sandwiches and lunch items range from $2.50 to $5.95. Offerings include everything from bacon, egg and cheese croissants to meatloaf and homemade stew and soup. The store also carries some grocery items.

 

Bleh estimated about $85,000 was invested to expand the business.

 

He said the family-owned business that was founded in 1894 will continue to offer homemade smoked meats and sausages.

 

"The expansion will allow people to try some of our items before they buy them," he said.

 

Contact: 513-241-2433 or www.sausagespecialists.com.

Avril-Bleh & Sons Meat Market expands

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081215/BIZ01/812150317/1055/NEWS

 

Avril-Bleh & Sons Meat Market, a longtime meat market and deli at 33 E. Court St., has expanded the business to offer more items.

 

Owner Leonard Bleh said the business has acquired a building next door and is using the added 1,300 square feet to offer a new menu that includes breakfast and lunch items.

 

Prices for breakfast sandwiches and lunch items range from $2.50 to $5.95. Offerings include everything from bacon, egg and cheese croissants to meatloaf and homemade stew and soup. The store also carries some grocery items.

 

Bleh estimated about $85,000 was invested to expand the business.

 

He said the family-owned business that was founded in 1894 will continue to offer homemade smoked meats and sausages.

 

"The expansion will allow people to try some of our items before they buy them," he said.

 

Contact: 513-241-2433 or www.sausagespecialists.com.

 

is this another expansion or just a really old story the enquirer ran again

 

Old story.

I was also confused by that story today about Avril-Bleh and wondered if they expanded a third time.

Great story on urban grocers:

http://www.newurbannews.com/urbansupermarkets.html

I've been wondering how often people go to Findlay and Krogers around the area for food.  I don't live in Cincinnati any longer but I know that from living in an urban environment, I hit the store up every 2 days or so for mostly vegetables, 5 days for milk and other pershables, and about every 2 weeks for no pershables.  Usually just buying enough for my girlfriend and I.

 

I was thinking along those terms because I read the article you posted, UncleRando and several of the stores in there are absolutely huge and my thought was - are people still applying a "stock up" mentality when living in an urban environment or do people like the thought of a store that has every single thing that they could ever need.  For me, most of my items like veggies, dairy etc aren't brand centric and other items like wine I go to specialty stores that I know carry my brand.  For things like beer, chips etc I just go to a convenience store.  And I personally don't eat alot of frozen items.

...are people still applying a "stock up" mentality when living in an urban environment or do people like the thought of a store that has every single thing that they could ever need....

 

I don't live within walking distance of a grocery store now, and I hate grocery shopping anyway, so I tend to try to stock up as much as possible.  However, when I lived in Chicago (Lincoln Park) a few years ago, I happened to live right next to a small local, but also full-service grocery store.  That place was about 50% larger than the Kroger in OTR, so not super tiny, but a far cry from most chain supermarkets.  It was a bit more expensive of course, though not by a whole lot.  The main thing is that nothing was ever on sale.  Nonetheless, I loved having it next door.  If I had a hankering for something for dinner, I'd just stop by after walking home from the L station and pick up whatever I needed.  I'd usually go there 3 times a week, bringing home a few bags of whatever I needed each time.  My bank and the post office was in there too, which was fantastic.  What I really appreciated, even though it was a little more pricey, was even with it being a small store, they still carried everything I wanted.  Instead of 100 identical cans of pasta sauce, they'd have 10, instead of a huge gimmicky "bakery" the bread was efficiently laid out in just another aisle.  It really was well stocked, and I never had to wait in line to check out either, despite there usually being only one or two lanes open.

 

I did occasionally drive to a large Jewel supermarket a few miles away, to try to stock up on non-perishables and other less expensive items.  It ended up being too much trouble though, so I stopped.  I also checked out the 2-story Dominick's that was right next to the Fullerton L station I used to get to work.  It is a pretty cool mixed-use building with the store on the first two floors, and four more floors of either offices or apartments above.  Unfortunately, that was too far to carry groceries home from.

 

So I think you do still see people trying to stock up at times, but also do as-needed shopping as well.  It's really a function of distance and how you get to the store and back.  Even in an urban environment, if you have to drive to get there then I'd expect to see the stock up mentality.  If there's a store within walking distance, but still a little ways away, you might see both, depending on how people transport their groceries (you can't walk home many 2 liter bottles of soda, or bags of kitty litter without your own cart).  I'll bet the small stores like the one I mentioned above will probably survive, though I don't see new ones being built.  Chain supermarkets will do whatever they can to make all their stores fit their corporate model, so I'd expect to see any new urban stores be pretty big.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, since the bulk inventory helps keep prices down over the small stores, and with little more than extra "express" checkout lanes, I think they can just as easily cater to the frequent shopper as to those who stock up only a few times a month. 

I buy in small amounts since I live by myself.  It helps prevent things from going bad.  Publix is great, because not only do they have nice small-footprint urban stores, but they also sell everything you need (just not a thousand options of each thing) and small sizes for urban residents looking to avoid the aforementioned problem.

^ Plus, Publix is fun to mispronounce!

While reconnecting Short Vine and Vine has been talked about a lot in terms of the redevelopment of that site, I haven't ever seen any plan or proposal that actually does that.  I believe this is the latest site plan: http://www.corryville.org/renderings/UnivPlazaConceptPlan.jpg.html

 

*edit* Here are a few more drawings for that proposal as well as the other things in play on/around the proposed streetcar route through uptown: http://www.corryville.org/ccc/cccdevrend.html

^Wow, those Short Vine redevelopments on the 2600 block don't have any qualms about tearing down entire blocks to build something that already exists in the general vicinity. It's almost like they'd prefer to simply move UC to a cornfield in Liberty Township. Let's hope that development never happens.

 

The University Plaza plans are just as bad.  Ooo look, fancy paving!  That'll make everything better!  It's all such uninspired and inappropriate crap it becomes offensive when applied to an urban environment. 

While reconnecting Short Vine and Vine has been talked about a lot in terms of the redevelopment of that site, I haven't ever seen any plan or proposal that actually does that.  I believe this is the latest site plan: http://www.corryville.org/renderings/UnivPlazaConceptPlan.jpg.html

 

There is a plan out there that has the reconnection.  Since that time Kroger has value-engineered out the reconnection in favor of a contiguous surface lot.  This has not gone over well with Corryville neighborhood leaders and at this point I'm not sure anything is certain.  If a force (i.e. streetcar) comes in it could very well tip the scales in one direction.

 

  Some comments about the Corryvile Kroger:

 

    I have an old advertisement for one of the early Kroger stores in a suburban shopping center. They advertised plenty of parking and one stop shopping. Specifically, they advertised that meat could be purchased off the shelf, without going to a separate butcher.

 

  Once upon a time, one had to go to the baker, the butcher, the grocer, the druggist, and a number of other stores. This is not too bad in a walking environment on a typical pedestrian street.

 

    Modern supermarkets came to be along with automobiles, highways, and refrigerators. No longer do folks buy a handful of groceries nearly every day. They buy them by the cartload, and truck them home in autombiles to fill refrigerators. Having the kitchen close to a private parking space is a major consideration when buying a home. Supermarkets have changed with the times to focuse on a business model that includes driving to the grocery store.

 

    We don't think of supermarkets as being in the transportation business, but that's exactly what they are. Not only do they own the parking lot, but they also own the loading dock around the back of the store.

 

    The last thing that a supermarket wants to do is provide free parking for neighboring businesses. That is why almost all supermarkets are self-contained developments.

 

      Even when streetcars were in operation before 1951, folks were driving to the supermarkets.

 

    The Corryville Kroger is an urban disaster. Reworking the design to improve traffic flow within the property would go a long way. Even so, Kroger does NOT want folks to park in their lot and patronize businesses on short Vine. They will go as far as to tow your car if they see you leaving their property.

 

    The Kroger Company bases their business model on automobile traffic. They cannot compete with a corner grocery store in an urban environment. Somehow the Over-the-Rhine Kroger has survived all of these years, but that was one of the earliest surban layouts and represents a transition from the storefront business to a suburban shopping center.

 

    The suburban shopping center layout is simply too big to be pedestrian friendly. You can't expect to walk into a huge store and come out with just a handful of groceries.

 

    The Corryville Kroger is making money now. What incentive does Kroger have to change?

 

      I don't know the answer, but changing Kroger's business model does not seem likely.

 

   

 

   

There is an argument that can be made that one of the driving forces behind the expansion of the automobile culture is that development of reliable refrigerator/freezer in the home, which allowed the house wife to stock up in the home in a single trip which meant she needed a car and a car friendly shopping environment. Urbanists may hate it, but for a busy housewife circa 1920-1960, this development was a godsend.

^I don't know if that is necessarily true.  Have you seen the fridges in Europe?

 

 

    I have not. Please tell about the fridges in Europe.

Well how do some of the urban stores in Chicago perform, like the Dominick's next to the Fullerton L station?  That's a two story urban store with a few more floors of either apartments or office above, and a parking garage in the back.  Image

They must not be doing too badly, because Dominick's and Jewel keep building more of them.

^There's a big Whole Foods in Union Square that is packed.  Also, Kroger's built the most urban friendly Kroger I have ever seen real close to the Georgia State House in Atlanta.  Maybe Rando has pics of that somewhere.  It can be done.

 

Eurofridges are small, there milk comes in bricks, not gallons, and they go to the market with relative frequency, because it is a bitch to carry a weeks work of groceries home on public transit.  Also a  lot of other reasons too.

The oldest strip mall in Cincinnati was the Roselawn Valley Shop-In, which was built in 1947.  The third oldest was the White Oak Shopping Center in 1949. I don't know what the second-oldest was.  But the White Oak Shopping Center did have a Kroger in it and was probably the first example of such a format in Cincinnati and one of the first in the world.  However this Kroger was replaced by Drug Palace, a precursor to Walgreen's/CVS.  What I'm saying is that Kroger was tiny by today's standards.  The Vine St. Kroger is I think the last of the tiny Krogers.  There was a tiny Kroger in Camp Washington until recently, and a tiny one at the corner of Colerain & Galbraith until about 1992.  It was replaced by a CVS or Walgreen's.       

 

Also, the White Oak Shopping Center did and still does have a bus shelter.  Also, the White Oak Shopping Center has a basement beneath the entire thing with dozens of odd businesses.  When I was a kid there was a karate school down there and a very cool slot car racing club with three different tracks.  There was also, ironically enough, a driving school in the basement. 

 

 

 

 

^I was always under the impression that that buff-colored brick building at 14th & Main, where the OTR Chamber is, was an old Kroger.  At least that is what I recall from Architreks.

The oldest strip mall in Cincinnati was the Roselawn Valley Shop-In, which was built in 1947. The third oldest was the White Oak Shopping Center in 1949. I don't know what the second-oldest was. But the White Oak Shopping Center did have a Kroger in it and was probably the first example of such a format in Cincinnati and one of the first in the world. However this Kroger was replaced by Drug Palace, a precursor to Walgreen's/CVS. What I'm saying is that Kroger was tiny by today's standards. The Vine St. Kroger is I think the last of the tiny Krogers. There was a tiny Kroger in Camp Washington until recently, and a tiny one at the corner of Colerain & Galbraith until about 1992. It was replaced by a CVS or Walgreen's.

 

Also, the White Oak Shopping Center did and still does have a bus shelter. Also, the White Oak Shopping Center has a basement beneath the entire thing with dozens of odd businesses. When I was a kid there was a karate school down there and a very cool slot car racing club with three different tracks. There was also, ironically enough, a driving school in the basement.  

 

 

Greenhills had a strip mall, which (built during the 1930's) was one of the earliest in the country if I'm not mistaken.  It also as a similarly odd basement that opens up to the back. 

A. Urban groceries do matter for a discussion of the streetcar, because they are one of the institutions that either facilitate the use of the streetcar (because it is easier than walking, especially the six months of the years when the weather sucks) or the militate against it because they fear the loss of their parking lots and the like.

 

If you want to see a very early 'suburban Kroger', the old IGA/Ridge Market/now daycare center/hair college - was a 1920s era version of the store. It is completely car oriented. The Burger King wasn't there in the 20s.

A. Urban groceries do matter for a discussion of the streetcar, because they are one of the institutions that either facilitate the use of the streetcar (because it is easier than walking, especially the six months of the years when the weather sucks) or the militate against it because they fear the loss of their parking lots and the like.

 

Yeah man, chill with the censorship.  Stop trying to harsh the mellow of a free-form market values discussion of urban public transit expenditure with your socialist police state rhetorical air-brushing.

 

Oh God.  I'm extremely drunk.

 

    When I was in Europe I noticed that every train station of any size had a grocery store in it, along with some other retail. It is a perfect match, because passengers can pick up groceries on the way home, or alternatively, buy a meal for the train ride.

 

  I assume that the railroads are leasing space to the grocery stores, which will enhance the revenue stream of the railroads. With all that pedestrian traffic, there is bound to be a demand for store space.

 

 

 

 

Its like that at Penn Station in New York, also.

When I was in Europe I noticed that every train station of any size had a grocery store in it, along with some other retail. It is a perfect match, because passengers can pick up groceries on the way home, or alternatively, buy a meal for the train ride.

 

The northern end of Charlotte's light rail line has a grocery store basically right there on the station platform.

^There's a big Whole Foods in Union Square that is packed.  Also, Kroger's built the most urban friendly Kroger I have ever seen real close to the Georgia State House in Atlanta.  Maybe Rando has pics of that somewhere.  It can be done.

 

Is this the one you're talking about?

 

 

 

 

If not, where is the one you're talking about?  I'll check it out and take some pics to share with everyone.

Maybe.  The one I was thinking of was near the State Capitol and there were apartments above it.

Oh ok, this one is on the edge of Buckhead and Midtown.  I'll go check out the one you're talking about later this week maybe.

It might be closed down by now.  I remember it being there around 2004.  It was new around then.  It was sort of funny that they put it there because I don't remember many people living in that area back then and it hasn't seemed like much of a growth area since, compared to West Midtown and the stuff they've been putting in east of the highway and north of Grant Park.  I guess there are more folks downtown since then.

When I was in Europe I noticed that every train station of any size had a grocery store in it, along with some other retail. It is a perfect match, because passengers can pick up groceries on the way home, or alternatively, buy a meal for the train ride.

 

The northern end of Charlotte's light rail line has a grocery store basically right there on the station platform.

 

I really like that grocery store.  Grab a beer, drink it on the patio while you wait for the train. (No idea if that is legal or not, but no one seemed to care)

 

If you want to see a very early 'suburban Kroger', the old IGA/Ridge Market/now daycare center/hair college - was a 1920s era version of the store. It is completely car oriented. The Burger King wasn't there in the 20s.

 

Wow, I had no idea the building was that old. I guess it makes sense; car-oriented looks roughly the same no matter the year of construction.

LK,

 

Are you sure it was a Kroger near the Georgia Statehouse?  I'm not really finding anything close to there, and certainly not a Kroger.

LK,

 

Are you sure it was a Kroger near the Georgia Statehouse? I'm not really finding anything close to there, and certainly not a Kroger.

 

I've been around that area and I can't imagine there would be a Kroger there.

...car-oriented looks roughly the same no matter the year of construction.

 

To some extent yes, but we've got nothing compared to the awesome gas stations of the pre-WWII era.  This one in Lebanon is an excellent example.  There's still a bunch around that have been converted to other uses, like the Lewis Animal Hospital in O'Bryonville, and there's one buried inside of Courtesy Chevrolet in Oakley. 

 

Back on topic though, sort of, is this the old Kroger in Pleasant Ridge?  The Auditor's site says 1940, which is more appropriate for the minimalist concrete block design.  I wouldn't be surprised if there's a pre-1940 structure inside that was expanded and modernized into what we see now, but I really don't believe what we see dates from the 20s.

The link didn't work. I was going from stories in PRidge. Sanborn is being annoying.

The link didn't work. I was going from stories in PRidge. Sanborn is being annoying.

 

Grr, I hate when sites use session ID's.  Try this:  http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.182837,-84.425964&spn=0,359.980474&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.182895,-84.425853&panoid=Xr7kR65d3Uiu6JhzVavrpQ&cbp=12,105.87,,0,0.55

LK,

 

Are you sure it was a Kroger near the Georgia Statehouse? I'm not really finding anything close to there, and certainly not a Kroger.

 

I could definitely be wrong.  It's been years, so I don't remember.  Thanks for trying.

...car-oriented looks roughly the same no matter the year of construction.

 

To some extent yes, but we've got nothing compared to the awesome gas stations of the pre-WWII era. This one in Lebanon is an excellent example. There's still a bunch around that have been converted to other uses, like the Lewis Animal Hospital in O'Bryonville, and there's one buried inside of Courtesy Chevrolet in Oakley.

 

That's indeed true. Businesses that catered specifically to pre-interstate highway traffic have an interesting history. You used to see Kewpie and wigwam gas stations, dinosaur farms  and ice cream stands that looked like ice cream cones. Interstates killed all that stuff and replaced it with corporate blandness.

I am inquiring if OTR foot traffic would support a high quality small-medium grocery store: some sandwiches, soft drinks,  basic items etc.  Any and all comments are welcome, especially on traffic patterns.

Not OTR but here is the downtown pedestrian count: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CBEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.downtowncincinnati.com%2FLibraries%2FDCI_Publications%2F2008_Pedestrian_Count_Summary.sflb.ashx&ei=fVJ5S7OwNpLSNZqhpLQH&usg=AFQjCNEs75v2UwPmLCFk7B8MeMUFhaW8qg&sig2=Wli1_hLgdtQVLK1dNlHFuA

I'm going to move this to the Urban Grocery thread.

What exactly are people looking for in terms of a grocery store downtown/otr?  I think that other than thte hours most of the locations downtown for groceries aren't that bad.  My friends hit up Kroger, Walgreens, and the market pretty often but the hours for Kroger aren't that great, that's my main complaint with the grocery options down there.  There are some decent places to get wine, produce, etc already - not great yet but prety decent.  For me, since I walk regularly 6 miles a day and the gf and I don't buy that much at any one time anyway it wouldn't be that bad.  If I remember there are some bus stops pretty close to Kroger so is it that difficult to get to?  Maybe there needs to be better cab access for those that live downtown - if you live downtown it's probably nothing more than a $5 - $7 cab ride back?

 

Inquiring because when I move back I'm trying to see if it's really more problematic than it seems?

I think a lot of people forget that there is a Kroger grocery store right in the center of OTR.  It's on Vine Street half way between Central Parkway and Liberty.  The reason why people tend to ignore it is: 1) it is not advertised (Kroger sent us a letter in the mail welcoming us to the community and telling us our local store was miles away when we were mere blocks from the OTR location), 2) much of their stock is subpar in quality (Mad Dog is some of the best wine and brands tend to be generic) and lacks freshness (many items are near expiration), 3) the area can still be a bit sketchy for those who are a bit on the wimpy side and 4) the design is not really an "urban grocery" design.  I'm hoping with the streetcar running a block away and some pressure on Kroger this location could be transformed into a signature store.  Then again, I'm generally an optimist.

I remember thinking the Vine St. Kroger was just a warehouse when I first passed it.

The Vine St. Kroger will hopefully get a facelift as building renovations move up Vine St.  I believe that if/when the area around it looks like the Gateway Quarter, they'll renovate.  I'd love to see it added onto and brought up to the sidewalk.  The parking lot does seem to always get used though.  I wonder if they could get parking in the alley behind, and have a storefront type street presence in the front.