Seems like you could set up something where the current structure is torn down, a new Kroger is built where the lot is now, a pedestrian entrance on Vine, and a parking lot of similar size exists where the current building is located.  Then you could have an entrance that faces the parking lot as well.  It would be a lot of work and may not be worthwhile, but it would certainly make Vine Street look a lot nicer.

Mainline groceries just aren't that sophisticated. The Jewels and Dominicks in Chicago and the Publix in Miami and Orlando are attached to structured parking, transit or not. They are one story, seldom two. They are however oriented to the street, often an intersection, instead of oriented to their parking.

 

Target just opened a grocery in Orlando about a year ago that you park *on top of.*

 

 

I think there's a similar arrangement at the Lakeview Jewel in Chicago.

There's a big Target store up in the Bronx that has rooftop parking as well, with the main entrance facing the sidewalk.

Philly's various urban groceries all have connected parking - Trader Joe's has a lot, Whole Market has garages, the Grocer has a garage above. Most face the street and at the curb, except Trader Joe's which is essentially on the backside of a skyscraper - but is about a quarter block from subway/trolley stop.

Urban grocery planned at 7th and Main

Posted by lbaverman September 21st, 2010, 5:58 pm

 

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/developingnow/2010/09/21/urban-grocery-planned-at-7th-and-main/

^Good news about the grocery opening downtown, but it's only 500 square feet.  That really is pretty small, even for an urban store.  I though Avril Bleh opened a grocery store adjacent to their deli/butcher shop, isn't this just a few blocks away?  I know it's the nature of urban living to have little stores to pick things up at, but to really sell the masses on downtown living, there needs to be a viable grocery option.  Although, once Findlay gets a streetcar connection, that might make a full scale grocery store unnecessary.

The key with this store is that it is being started by Josh Campbell.  That guy knows food!

My main takeaway is that the store will stay open until 10.  Avril Bleh's hours are silly. 

Why would anyone need to go outside of OTR or Downtown for groceries?  What are people buying that they can't get downtown somewhere?  Just to clarify, most grocery stores carry upwards of 50,000 items - for downtown what's the big miss?  Is it just that shoppers like the atmosphere of huge stores?

^Good news about the grocery opening downtown, but it's only 500 square feet.  That really is pretty small, even for an urban store.  I though Avril Bleh opened a grocery store adjacent to their deli/butcher shop, isn't this just a few blocks away?  I know it's the nature of urban living to have little stores to pick things up at, but to really sell the masses on downtown living, there needs to be a viable grocery option.  Although, once Findlay gets a streetcar connection, that might make a full scale grocery store unnecessary.

 

I saw the article in the Business Courier and knew it was being discussed on UO.  I was really hoping it would be larger than 500 sq ft.  It is a nice addition to Downtown but not what I would call a grocery store.

 

I would love to see something like Cosentino's Market in Kansas City.  To me that is a real Downtown grocery store.

 

^Good news about the grocery opening downtown, but it's only 500 square feet.  That really is pretty small, even for an urban store.  I though Avril Bleh opened a grocery store adjacent to their deli/butcher shop, isn't this just a few blocks away?

 

Avril-Bleh market is good for picking up a few things, but they don't have much.  I've been making small trips here and there during my maternity leave.  That's because I can actually get there now before their closing time.  My trips there will probably become less frequent when I go back to work. 

I like the Cosentino's but I don't think Cincinnati will get a major operator downtown.  Kroger already has an OTR store and not likely to get a big out of towner to come in and take a risk on downtown Cincinnati.  For me, if there was a stronger cab culture or a neighborhood shuttle bus then Findlay and Kroger would work fine for downtowners.

^streetcar

^streetcar

 

What streetcar? 

I like the Cosentino's but I don't think Cincinnati will get a major operator downtown. Kroger already has an OTR store and not likely to get a big out of towner to come in and take a risk on downtown Cincinnati. For me, if there was a stronger cab culture or a neighborhood shuttle bus then Findlay and Kroger would work fine for downtowners.

 

The Whole Foods in Portland's downtown (Pearl District, technically) is a good example of what we need.  I could see them opening a downtown location if the number of residents increases in the near future.

Portland's core also has two Safeways (one downtown proper and one in the Pearl).  Also, both stores--along with the Whole Foods--are on the streetcar line.  Hmmm... I could certainly see a similar synergy occurring in Cincy between the OTR Kroger and a downtown grocer.

^^A taxi stand outside of Kroger would help considerably and could be operational fairly quickly.  I like the idea of the streetcar as a good circulator but there's really not too much in place (maybe the bus) right now.

Someone from Gannett wanted feedback on a future article about the need for a downtown grocery.  Below was my response.  Am I off base here?  Are people really saying something to the effect of "I'd move downtown, but there is no big box grocery?"

 

 

As far as downtown residents are concerned, I have heard some of our membership lament the lack of a large grocery.  However, I would echo Conrad's remarks that we have "Findlay Market, Sunshine Fine Foods, Avril's, Mayberry Food Stuffs[, Vine Street Krogers,] and many other local businesses" to shop at downtown for groceries.  My wife, who does all our grocery shopping, only needs to drive out of downtown every other week to stock up on a few can, dry, and paper goods.

 

Personally, I get a lot of grocery "issue" questions from people who do not live downtown.  The question always comes off as a bizarre argument against downtown living.  Everyone must drive to get food if they do large grocery runs.  We have many large grocery stores within a few mile radius from downtown.  And quite frankly, if Gannett would drop its ideological crusade against the Cincinnati Streetcar, downtown would be more attractive to residents who could make more frequent trips (without having to drive) to Findlay Market to pick up their groceries.

 

I hope this is helpful...  Ben....

^I don't think the lack of a big box grocer is preventing it, but it would be nice to have the option--not necessarily a big box, but something where the every-other-week trips to stock up are not necessary. 

Something like Whole Foods or Trader Joe's would be a welcome addition, but I don't think that they're needed.  I'd rather go to Findlay Market and/or Avril's, but extra options would always be welcome.

Agreed.  Or maybe Fresh Market or whatever. 

i could see an Aldi going in downtown.

Cincinnati could easily support a Fresh Market down at the Banks, an urban Target with groceries between Court St and Fountain Square, the OTR Kroger, Findlay Market, and the full service supermarkets in KY.  There all different markets and they all exist in the basin.

 

 

  "Why would anyone need to go outside of OTR or Downtown for groceries?  What are people buying that they can't get downtown somewhere?  Just to clarify, most grocery stores carry upwards of 50,000 items - for downtown what's the big miss?  Is it just that shoppers like the atmosphere of huge stores?"

 

  There are basicly two models for grocery stores. One is the neighborhood corner grocery store, and one is the suburban big box. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. The two models promote two very different lifestyles. the neighborhood shopper tends to make more short trips and purchase fewer items. The suburban big box shopper makes fewer trips but needs a vehicle to carry more groceries and more room at home to store them.

 

    Either way, if one has grown accustomed to one lifestyle, it is not necessarily easy to switch to the other. The typical suburban big box shopper expects to be able to drive from the store to her front door just steps away from the kitchen. The urban shopper can't get to the big box without a car, and doesn't want to carry 10 bags of groceries up the steps.

Places like Fresh Market or Findlay Market, Whole Foods, etc., are nice and all, but is there anywhere in downtown or OTR other than the pathetic Kroger on Vine to get "regular" products?  Things like a box of Rice Krispies, Tombstone frozen pizzas, name-brand but not upmarket laundry detergents, household cleaning supplies, toilet paper etc.  I honestly am not that familiar with the shopping options downtown, but I suspect it's like choosing toilet paper that's either 80 grit sandpaper or hand-woven by Hopi Indians.  Are there decent options between the gas station convenience store and the high-end boutique grocery?  I think that's the issue more than the particular format of the store.

I like the vine street Kroger.  I hate any sort of big grocery store that requires me to park and then walk walk walk to get the small number of things I want, and then wait in lines to get out.  It's an energy drain for me.

 

I feel blessed to be able to walk two blocks to that small store, get in and out quickly, no stress.  And the people are really nice. 

 

People who trash the place probably haven't been there.  Between vine street Kroger for toilet paper etc and Findlay market, I am happy.

Yeah, I really don't get the trash talking of the Vine St Kroger.  It's got everything it needs, and while it doesn't have 15 different brands of everything, it does have one quality brand and one Kroger brand version of everything.  Plus, the service there is actually really nice. 

I have no problem with the Vine St. Kroger.  I think it has a ton of potential to be even better, if it comes to it. 

Places like Fresh Market or Findlay Market, Whole Foods, etc., are nice and all, but is there anywhere in downtown or OTR other than the pathetic Kroger on Vine to get "regular" products?  Things like a box of Rice Krispies, Tombstone frozen pizzas, name-brand but not upmarket laundry detergents, household cleaning supplies, toilet paper etc.  I honestly am not that familiar with the shopping options downtown, but I suspect it's like choosing toilet paper that's either 80 grit sandpaper or hand-woven by Hopi Indians.  Are there decent options between the gas station convenience store and the high-end boutique grocery?  I think that's the issue more than the particular format of the store.

For frozen foods, paper items, little snacks and things like that, CVS and Walgreens work.  I live in a neighborhood where there is a big grocery store just beyond walking distance, but there is a CVS 2 blocks away, and it is very handy for those types of things.

With the renovations on vine street, in a number of years people may be talking about the Vine street Kroger being a "cool" place to buy groceries and it may even become more of an upscale store.

 

Before the Vine Street Kroger was renovated, it was really dumpy. It's tough to shake a reputation.

 

 

It would be nice if Kroger would use that store for a new urban grocery concept. Seeing as it is the store closest to their corporate headquarters, it would be sensible to make it a flagship of some kind. Something to show investors when they come to town, and something to help out the revitalization of the core of the company's home city. You know, to be good corporate citizens and all that.

 

Wishful thinking? Probably. But it sounds very reasonable to me!

It would be nice if Kroger would use that store for a new urban grocery concept. Seeing as it is the store closest to their corporate headquarters....

 

Maybe I've heard wrong, but it is my understanding that the leadership at Kroger is for the most part anti-urban.  I'm guessing we'll see at least one other major grocer come in before Kroger will even consider investing.

Kroger did open a fairly nice store in Columbus' Brewery District a couple years ago. I shopped there yesterday, and have been pleased with it's design. It has windows and the interior does a somewhat good job of approximating the old brick warehouse/brewery fell of the area.

^Isn't there a large, suburban style parking lot right in front of that store?

^It is.  A better example would be the new Kroger being built onto High Street.  That is truely an urban Kroger.

I actually don't see the Brewrey District Kroger's parking lot as that much of a problem since it isn't nearly as large as the Kroger lot on say, the South Side or for a Cincy comparison, the Spring Grove lot. But the main thing that helps mitigate it's impact is that it lies behind the buildings on Front St., has a small alley leading to it on it's north end and is surrounded by buildings. It doesn't create nearly the gap in the urban fabric that is often seen with surface lots -- reminding me more of small town municipal lots that are away from the main parts of the CBD but let businesses survive in today's transportation climate.

 

Indeed though, the new High St. Kroger just north of the Short North is a better example.

Can they save this store?

 

WALNUT HILLS — Kevin Wright has seen it before: Kroger, the world’s largest grocery chain, closes a struggling, urban grocery store, and residents throw up their hands in protest.

 

Wright wants to prevent that from happening here, where the Kroger store on McMillan Avenue has lost more than $5 million in the past four years.

 

He’s leading a campaign to recruit 200 new shoppers to spend $50 a month at the store, a figure Kroger says will help the location turn a profit for the first time in years. The “Buy 25 Tuesdays” events are getting people out to Kroger twice a month to help meet the goal; they’ve made the grocer nearly $8,000 so far.

 

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120805/BIZ/308050017/Can-Walnut-Hills-Kroger-saved-?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p

 

I don't like the idea of private citizens raising funds for a Fortune 500 franchise.  Maybe a dynamic Kroger with an immediate presence in the lot space on Gilbert directly in front of the current store.  It could have a mini fresh market attached to the back of the store with a corridor fashion, a la Findlay Market.  If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park.  There's a demand for a more capable big-box provider in the area.  Kroger and the franchisee needs to realize this if at all possible to execute.

I don't like the idea of private citizens raising funds for a Fortune 500 franchise.  Maybe a dynamic Kroger with an immediate presence in the lot space on Gilbert directly in front of the current store.  It could have a mini fresh market attached to the back of the store with a corridor fashion, a la Findlay Market.  If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park.  There's a demand for a more capable big-box provider in the area, Kroger and the franchisee needs to realize this if at all possible to execute.

 

I think that is the purpose of the buy 25. Show Kroger there is a large demand for a quality store in the area and then they will make store improvements.

If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park. 

 

That's exactly the problem.  Kroger pours a lot of their resources into making the Hyde Park store a more regional draw, sucking away the choice customers from downtown, East Walnut Hills, Mt. Adams, etc. who might otherwise patronize a better store closer to their own neighborhood.  By letting Walnut Hills and OTR flounder they boost the performance of Hyde Park, and basically guarantee that those other stores won't succeed much at all.  It's kind of like when UC wants to demolish one of their buildings.  They defer maintenance to the point that after a few years they can say it's too dilapidated to fix and nobody wants to use it. 

... If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park.  There's a demand for a more capable big-box provider in the area.  Kroger and the franchisee needs to realize this if at all possible to execute.

Are you aware of how successful Kroger's Norwood store at Surrey Square actually is? (for example, not too long ago it outsold the Hyde Park store for an entire quarter)  The reason why is that this huge store services a "food desert' within the central city that extends all the way from Avondale/Evanston  up through Pleasant Ridge--and maybe even into Walnut Hills.  BTW, because I live only two blocks from the store, I can personally attest to its broad appeal and absolute necessity to neighborhoods to its north and south.  Look at it any way you want; for Kroger this particular store is a gold mine.

If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park. 

 

That's exactly the problem.  Kroger pours a lot of their resources into making the Hyde Park store a more regional draw, sucking away the choice customers from downtown, East Walnut Hills, Mt. Adams, etc. who might otherwise patronize a better store closer to their own neighborhood.  By letting Walnut Hills and OTR flounder they boost the performance of Hyde Park, and basically guarantee that those other stores won't succeed much at all.  It's kind of like when UC wants to demolish one of their buildings.  They defer maintenance to the point that after a few years they can say it's too dilapidated to fix and nobody wants to use it. 

Wait just a minute and realize that Kroger is a business, not a welfare agency.  Both the WH and OTR Kroger stores are floundering because they are both stand-alone food stores situated in two ghettos.  The purchasing power in each of these neighborhoods is nil while the risk of remaining there for Kroger is high.  It isn't Kroger's job to play Santa Claus to an entire class of people who cannot afford to buy.

If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park. 

 

That's exactly the problem.  Kroger pours a lot of their resources into making the Hyde Park store a more regional draw, sucking away the choice customers from downtown, East Walnut Hills, Mt. Adams, etc. who might otherwise patronize a better store closer to their own neighborhood.  By letting Walnut Hills and OTR flounder they boost the performance of Hyde Park, and basically guarantee that those other stores won't succeed much at all.  It's kind of like when UC wants to demolish one of their buildings.  They defer maintenance to the point that after a few years they can say it's too dilapidated to fix and nobody wants to use it. 

Wait just a minute and realize that Kroger is a business, not a welfare agency.  Both the WH and OTR Kroger stores are floundering because they are both stand-alone food stores situated in two ghettos.  The purchasing power in each of these neighborhoods is nil while the risk of remaining there for Kroger is high.  It isn't Kroger's job to play Santa Claus to an entire class of people who cannot afford to buy.

 

wow...  :-o

Looks like they're getting off to an early start: nice. As far as some people not being "able" to afford shopping at Kroger, I'd like to know how those corner markets that sell nothing but junk food, cigs, lotto tickets and booze typically *thrive* in such areas. It's therefore largely not a matter of inability, but under-educated people who are, as a result of that *choice* (and proud of it in most cases) being bad with money.

 

Kroger did, although waiting til the last minute, revamp the Kroger on High St in Columbus which is on the edge of a not-so-great neighborhood which abuts the wildly popular Short North. Go east of High St from that Kroger, and I assume north of the one on McMillan in this case, and things get rougher pretty quickly. In the area bound by McMillan and Victory about 80-90% of residents make under $30,000 annually, which wouldn't bode poorly for that Kroger, except not even 2/3 of adults in this area have a high school education which only bolsters my point made earlier about the under-educated and their unsurprising lack of logical financial prioritization: they probably aren't buying veggies and other necessities at the same ratio as other Walnut Hills residents.

 

Fortunately, the walkable commercial strip across the street provides an opportunity for rehabs and quality small businesses to make the case for Kroger to fix up the store as long as they don't close it first. If the google maps image of the strip across the street still looks this bad then I'm not surprised that they haven't bothered. Along with continued efforts in OTR I see Walnut Hills having the potential to be the next success story a la Northside and a concerted effort to attract entrepreneurs here would go a long way: Kroger is only going to pay attention when their immediate location improves: that's the reality despite improvements elsewhere. Just south of McMillan you have the opposite demographics which are more likely to value and patronize a local grocery store. So, if the city hasn't already and invests in the strip across from Kroger and some quality businesses move in it would likely spread to the block east of there and open the door to more residents to make inroads north who would likely appreciate having a neighborhood grocery store not to mention a walkable urban area with nice architecture. The ongoing two-way conversion will also make a more compelling case for desirable businesses to choose locating here too and encourage more desirable residents to move in. I certainly have my doubts that the current efforts to get locals to shop at the Kroger will hold enough steam until other improvements nearby on McMillan take place and soon.

... If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park.  There's a demand for a more capable big-box provider in the area.  Kroger and the franchisee needs to realize this if at all possible to execute.

Are you aware of how successful Kroger's Norwood store at Surrey Square actually is? (for example, not too long ago it outsold the Hyde Park store for an entire quarter)  The reason why is that this huge store services a "food desert' within the central city that extends all the way from Avondale/Evanston  up through Pleasant Ridge--and maybe even into Walnut Hills.  BTW, because I live only two blocks from the store, I can personally attest to its broad appeal and absolute necessity to neighborhoods to its north and south.  Look at it any way you want; for Kroger this particular store is a gold mine.

 

Surrey Square, besides being an awful development, still isn't local enough for most people in the Walnut Hills area.  There is a demand for a store there, that's why one currently exists.  Because they're poor does not mean they require marginalization.  And your line about Kroger playing Santa Claus is mind-boggling, but I suppose you're entitled to make yourself appear elitist.

Kroger is easily a contender for most anti-urban force in the city. They actively undermine complete neighborhoods with their superstore business strategy and horrific urban design. Everyone needs a grocery store, and if you can't easily shop at one without a car, even if you can do everything else without one, car ownership will be very tempting.

So: I actually work for Kroger in the downtown HQ.  It's interesting to see some of my own thoughts and frustrations played out in this thread.

 

A couple of points:

 

1) Individual food items are usually more expensive at corner stores rather than supermarkets like Kroger, since supermarkets can cut better deals with suppliers.

 

2) Kroger sells a LOT to people using food stamps.  You might not realize it since food stamps went to an EBT/card-based system and got rid of the actual stamps.

 

3) Kroger isn't anti-urban on purpose, but I've found that the company's leadership and management tend to be pretty suburban-oriented.  Kroger's business model is usually predicated on buying product in bulk for cheap and then selling the heck out of it.  This means that the model favors larger stores, which in and of themselves are a lot easier to build in the 'burbs.  And if you're a Kroger executive who lives in the suburbs and virtually everyone you know lives in the suburbs, it's easy to subconsciously think that everyone has a car and is willing to travel 5-10 miles to grocery shop.

 

4) Kroger adjusts their product allocations for its various stores based on what their customers are actually buying.  If people start buying more produce and organic products at a store, eventually that store's product mix will be adjusted to fit what customers want.  However, when a neighborhood like OTR is changing rapidly, Kroger's data models can't always keep up.  In cases like that, feedback to store managers in letting them know what products you'd like to see, any expired product you find, and also improvements that you've seen and appreciate is critical, because that feedback can get a store to change more quickly.

 

5) The only way that Kroger's going to wake up and realize that they need to start also figuring out how to make a profitable model for urban grocery stores is the bottom line.  Right now we're the biggest groceries-only grocer in the country, and we've had continuous identical store growth for almost a decade - so our leadership's inclined to think that our current business model is working.  The way that Kroger will wake up and start studying urban grocery formats seriously are when they realize that people like Whole Foods are doing a much better job of targeting emerging urban markets, or when some of the existing urban Krogers start actually making money because of the increased number of residents shopping there.

 

6) Kroger's not inclined to throw good money after bad - store remodels generally go to stores that turn a profit.  The OTR Kroger was remodeled in the early 00s, which cost over 1.4 million, if memory serves.  they won't get another remodel until they're turning a profit.

 

7) that being said, the quality of a store is really measured in cleanliness, selection, and customer service.  Hyde Park Kroger is a hugely successful store but it's actually very outdated from a store layout and decoration standpoint - it is way overdue for a refresh.  My point is that increased traffic in the store and feedback to the manager can help improve a store to where it's looked on as an asset and not a burden.

 

I obviously can't give out confidential information, but I'd be happy to answer questions about Kroger that you guys might have.

An expansion about my point about Hyde Park Kroger: it's not become a regional draw because Kroger's put massive amounts of money into the store.  It's become a regional draw because of the product mix that the shoppers there buy.  this creates a virtuous circle of the product mix becoming more diversified, which brings in even more customers, which leads to the product mix becoming better, etc.

 

This is good news for urban grocery store advocates, because it means that grocery stores can be improved simply through shopping there more often and providing clear positive and negative feedback to store managers. 

^So Whats in store for the Walnut Hills Kroger?