Just so everyone is aware, it isn't quite as easy as it sounds to get new products on the shelves at the OTR Kroger. I talked to a manager about a year ago because you cannot buy a full gallon of 1% milk. I prefer 1% over 2% and whole, but I don't want to pay the extra money to buy two half gallons of milk. The manager simply said they wouldn't do it because they can't sell them fast enough. I tried to argue that they don't have to stock a lot of it, but a couple slots of 1% would be appreciated. He didn't seem too concerned.

 

Also, isn't there a Cincinnati grocery store thread?

Not sure if it has been mentioned before .There used to be an IGA across the street from Findlay market  at 1700 race st where "our Daily Bread is".

Just so everyone is aware, it isn't quite as easy as it sounds to get new products on the shelves at the OTR Kroger. I talked to a manager about a year ago because you cannot buy a full gallon of 1% milk. I prefer 1% over 2% and whole, but I don't want to pay the extra money to buy two half gallons of milk. The manager simply said they wouldn't do it because they can't sell them fast enough. I tried to argue that they don't have to stock a lot of it, but a couple slots of 1% would be appreciated. He didn't seem too concerned.

 

Also, isn't there a Cincinnati grocery store thread?

 

That's not you being unable to get the thing you want. The product you wanted was 1% milk and they had it.  This is you not being able to get the exact size you want.  But any smaller grocery store - ie just about any urban grocer - does need to make some hard decisions as to what SKUs they do carry, and often they save on space by eliminating multiple sizes of the same product.

 

If a grocery store had all possible sizes of all products everyone could possibly want, it would probably be too big, footprint-wise, for a true urban setting.

I buy milk at Findlay Market.

 

Additionally, regarding the City Target, Seattle has 60,000 downtown residents, Cincy has 14,000 by the most generous estimate (downtown & OTR).

If a grocery store had all possible sizes of all products everyone could possibly want, it would probably be too big, footprint-wise, for a true urban setting.

 

I think this is the key. The only way to get a big-box experience is to go to a big-box. If a customer wants a big-box experience, then he will be disappointed by an urban grocery store. 

I don't know how the footprint of OTR Kroger compares to that of the newly renovated Bellevue Kroger, but that one seems to be a model of what a neighborhood grocery store can really be.  It seems to offer about 3/4 of the products that the Newport Kroger offers, and eliminates the furniture, hardware, etc.  There's a small organic section, ready to eat meals being made on-site, and nice looking produce. 

 

I haven't been into the OTR Kroger in years, but mcadrenaline's suggestions are all valid.  Also, that store is not inviting at all, being set back so far from the street when every other building pushes right up to the sidewalk.  It just feels like they built the wrong kind of store there to begin with. 

That's not you being unable to get the thing you want. The product you wanted was 1% milk and they had it.  This is you not being able to get the exact size you want.  But any smaller grocery store - ie just about any urban grocer - does need to make some hard decisions as to what SKUs they do carry, and often they save on space by eliminating multiple sizes of the same product.

 

If a grocery store had all possible sizes of all products everyone could possibly want, it would probably be too big, footprint-wise, for a true urban setting.

 

I fail to see a difference between wanting a new product stocked and wanting a different size stocked. Either way they can lose business by not being more accommodating to what the customers desire and both options take shelf space. They probably have 10 or 15 slots of whole milk in one gallon containers. They could manage to set aside two for 1% milk.

Just so everyone is aware, it isn't quite as easy as it sounds to get new products on the shelves at the OTR Kroger. I talked to a manager about a year ago because you cannot buy a full gallon of 1% milk. I prefer 1% over 2% and whole, but I don't want to pay the extra money to buy two half gallons of milk. The manager simply said they wouldn't do it because they can't sell them fast enough. I tried to argue that they don't have to stock a lot of it, but a couple slots of 1% would be appreciated. He didn't seem too concerned.

 

Also, isn't there a Cincinnati grocery store thread?

 

That's not you being unable to get the thing you want. The product you wanted was 1% milk and they had it.  This is you not being able to get the exact size you want.  But any smaller grocery store - ie just about any urban grocer - does need to make some hard decisions as to what SKUs they do carry, and often they save on space by eliminating multiple sizes of the same product.

 

If a grocery store had all possible sizes of all products everyone could possibly want, it would probably be too big, footprint-wise, for a true urban setting.

 

Great point.

Just so everyone is aware, it isn't quite as easy as it sounds to get new products on the shelves at the OTR Kroger. I talked to a manager about a year ago because you cannot buy a full gallon of 1% milk. I prefer 1% over 2% and whole, but I don't want to pay the extra money to buy two half gallons of milk. The manager simply said they wouldn't do it because they can't sell them fast enough. I tried to argue that they don't have to stock a lot of it, but a couple slots of 1% would be appreciated. He didn't seem too concerned.

 

Also, isn't there a Cincinnati grocery store thread?

 

That's not you being unable to get the thing you want. The product you wanted was 1% milk and they had it.  This is you not being able to get the exact size you want.  But any smaller grocery store - ie just about any urban grocer - does need to make some hard decisions as to what SKUs they do carry, and often they save on space by eliminating multiple sizes of the same product.

 

If a grocery store had all possible sizes of all products everyone could possibly want, it would probably be too big, footprint-wise, for a true urban setting.

 

Great point.

 

I don't understand this at all.  Space is limited, so you can't have a one gallon container for 1% milk, but apparently if you ask for any new product, it will be brought in, meaning space is not limited?  It can't be both ways.  Either they are "very accommodating" and get in new products whenever you ask, or space is limited and you are going to feel that in both the size of various products that they stock, and the products themselves. 

That's not you being unable to get the thing you want. The product you wanted was 1% milk and they had it.  This is you not being able to get the exact size you want.  But any smaller grocery store - ie just about any urban grocer - does need to make some hard decisions as to what SKUs they do carry, and often they save on space by eliminating multiple sizes of the same product.

 

If a grocery store had all possible sizes of all products everyone could possibly want, it would probably be too big, footprint-wise, for a true urban setting.

 

I fail to see a difference between wanting a new product stocked and wanting a different size stocked. Either way they can lose business by not being more accommodating to what the customers desire and both options take shelf space. They probably have 10 or 15 slots of whole milk in one gallon containers. They could manage to set aside two for 1% milk.

 

+1

 

Also, should be noted, I've been asking for craft beers (just anything other than Bud Light, etc.) that every other Kroger has for about 2 years and the manager says Corporate has designated this store a single serve basic alcohol store and has no interest in changing it. HE wants to carry things like Moerlein, etc. but most of those decisions come from corporate.  They make money on single serves that get drunk by individuals walking around OTR and they want to stick to that model. It may not be great for the community but it's great for business. Now, THAT's accommodating!

 

So instead I just go to Findlay Market for virtually everything and make one trip every 3-4 weeks to a different Kroger.

Just so everyone is aware, it isn't quite as easy as it sounds to get new products on the shelves at the OTR Kroger. I talked to a manager about a year ago because you cannot buy a full gallon of 1% milk. I prefer 1% over 2% and whole, but I don't want to pay the extra money to buy two half gallons of milk. The manager simply said they wouldn't do it because they can't sell them fast enough. I tried to argue that they don't have to stock a lot of it, but a couple slots of 1% would be appreciated. He didn't seem too concerned.

 

Also, isn't there a Cincinnati grocery store thread?

 

That's not you being unable to get the thing you want. The product you wanted was 1% milk and they had it.  This is you not being able to get the exact size you want.  But any smaller grocery store - ie just about any urban grocer - does need to make some hard decisions as to what SKUs they do carry, and often they save on space by eliminating multiple sizes of the same product.

 

If a grocery store had all possible sizes of all products everyone could possibly want, it would probably be too big, footprint-wise, for a true urban setting.

 

This really doesn't seem to apply.  They have an entire section of whole milk 1-galllon jugs but no 2% 1-gallon jugs. Without a renovation or expansion they could swap out 2-3 of the whole milk gallon jugs to 2% jugs just to carry the product.  If when Macadreneline comes in they aren't there the store can say, sorry we only carry a few of those and they are sold out.  That's fine.  But this is different, they won't even carry 2% milk gallons.

If people want a perfect grocery store so much, then spend then next five years raising capital to open one, then prepare to get crushed by Kroger.  Likely Kroger would match your selection then drop prices to force you to burn through your startup capital.  You'd be the darling of Twitter for 3 months, then the butt of jokes #hipstergrocery 

 

Again, as I've suggested in other threads, everybody goes to grocery stores and many of us have worked at one but none of us really knows how they make money.  Specific items people want for the OTR Kroger might come from different vendors than wherever Kroger gets most of its stuff and it's not profitable to have them run a truck to a small store where few units will be sold.  Multiple vendor situations complicate accounting and raise the probibility of of receiving and clerical errors. 

 

 

I don't understand this at all.  Space is limited, so you can't have a one gallon container for 1% milk, but apparently if you ask for any new product, it will be brought in, meaning space is not limited?  It can't be both ways.  Either they are "very accommodating" and get in new products whenever you ask, or space is limited and you are going to feel that in both the size of various products that they stock, and the products themselves.

 

Well, anything perishable with a limited shelf-life like milk is going to be the most difficult to get added, since it needs to be sold fairly quickly. I have heard success stories from multiple people of new products getting added to the OTR Kroger, so I know it can be done.

 

But yes, a lot of Kroger's planning is now extremely centralized, and the models by which Kroger stores are re-evaluated are pretty slow. By no means am I saying it's a perfect urban grocer!  But what I am saying is that we're unlikely to get another actual supermarket in the basin until a) Kroger's making money hand over fist in the OTR location and b) population in the basin grows considerably.

 

to Jake's point, the grocery business is something that's extremely tough to make money in.  Margins are very low - I think Kroger's bottom-line income is something like 1% of its total revenues. There will be no hipster grocery store in the offing - you just can't compete on price, and price and selection are how people generally evaluate their supermarkets.  Where people can compete is on a smaller scale - look at the success of Picnic and Pantry in Northside, or the growth of Findlay Market.

 

Frankly, if Findlay was willing to expand its hours again and if some enterprising soul opened a dry goods store that sold paper products, cleaning supplies, pet food, a few housewares, dry groceries, and maybe some cheaper dairy than Madison's carries, that would be a much more credible alternative to OTR Kroger.

 

there is already a pet food store

and if you expand hours, the businesses will need to hire new employees & then you don't get the service you get from an owner operated store.

Madison's sells toilet paper & paper towels and some dry foods.

 

They have expensive local organic milk in half gallons but also sell cheaper regular milk in quarts. I suppose we could always ask them to consider carrying a non organic milk in a larger size.

there is already a pet food store

and if you expand hours, the businesses will need to hire new employees & then you don't get the service you get from an owner operated store.

 

Also, they have a pet. Food store across from Weilerts on Vine (same owners, different location)

So instead I just go to Findlay Market for virtually everything and make one trip every 3-4 weeks to a different Kroger.

 

So I guess the moral of the story is that Kroger still gets your business. Why should they change?

Buy a gallon of whole milk, and a gallon of skim milk.

Take an empty milk crate or other large resealable container and a funnel.

 

Mix the whole and skim milks together with a ratio of 4 part whole to 3 part skim. You will have a gallon of 2% milk.

 

Although you use 73 ounces of whole milk the first time, you have about 55 ounces of whole milk to either add to the next gallon you buy, or split the 55 ounces into another batch of 4/3 ratio milk.

 

 

If you are buying milk in gallon quantities already, then this concept isn't too far fetched.

Where people can compete is on a smaller scale - look at the success of Picnic and Pantry in Northside, or the growth of Findlay Market.

 

This is exactly the kind of small market that has been popping up all over Chicago over the last 10-15 years, it would do great to have something like this downtown to supplant what's already there.  Might also put pressure on the Kroger to carry better stuff...

I wouldn't really mind paying extra for two half gallons if it kept me from having to get in the car and drive up Vine St. hill or over to another state.

I wouldn't really mind paying extra for two half gallons if it kept me from having to get in the car and drive up Vine St. hill or over to another state.

 

That's exactly how I feel.  I know I don't get the best deal by not shopping in bulk, but the pennies I lose to that are absolutely worth the convenience I get from walking to the grocery store daily.  Even though I walk to Shadeau, Findlay, and Kroger almost daily, I never view it as an inconvenience because it's part of my commute. 

People have already forgotten about Mayberry Foodstuffs, which opened up downtown and had craft beer, a deli, lots of items like toilet paper, cleaning supplies, etc. However they couldn't make it work and closed down after a few months.

 

I think when people say they want a "downtown grocery store" and ignore the existing OTR Kroger, what they mean is they want a spacious store with a huge selection and wide isles to push their carts. I mean, if you only need to pick up a few specific items, you can go to Findlay Market or to the many convenience stores throughout OTR and downtown. What people are asking for is the one-stop shop. I think the only way that's going to happen is if a major retailer like Kroger or Target builds such a store as a part of a new development (could have been at 5th & Race for example).

I think when people say they want a "downtown grocery store" and ignore the existing OTR Kroger, what they mean is they want a spacious store with a huge selection and wide isles to push their carts. What people are asking for is the one-stop shop.

 

One strange aspect of all the former-suburbanites moving into an urban area, is they haven't realized yet that you don't need to fill a huge cart up of groceries every trip.

/

Anyways, how about Whole Foods...They put stores into urban areas in other cities, couldn't they in Cincinnati?

They've only got 2 stores in the entire 2.2 million person 15 county region and one is at Rookwood Commons, 5.5 miles from downtown. Don't see them being our saving grace.

Travis I think you're right.  People are basically saying they want a suburban and an urban grocery store at the same time.  And I think people are focusing too much on the 10% of things Findlay Market doesn't have instead of the 90% of things it does.  I think the meat and fish and prepared foods at Findlay Market are slightly cheaper than Whole Foods and usually as good.   

Findlay pretty much has the fruit/veggies/meat/baked goods.

 

I think the OTR Kroger (if its like any other generic Kroger) would be OK for eggs, dairy, and canned/frozen veggies and stuff like Cheerios, Hellmans Mayo and stuff like that....so I think you could pretty much do a weeks shopping using both places.

 

I recall we used to pretty much do our weeks shopping at Findlay, with very little xtra to get. 

 

 

Someone should open an "Everything Else" store at an empty storefront at Findlay. They could sell all the things a large grocer has that isn't sold by any other FM tenants.

 

Problem solved :P

Does anyone know how much smaller the OTR Kroger is than the Dayton Wayne Avenue Kroger?

Wayne Ave looks like an identical copy of the Covington and Walnut Hills Krogers.  I don't know square footages, but OTR Kroger isn't even half the size of Walnut Hills or Covington.

Findlay pretty much has the fruit/veggies/meat/baked goods.

 

I think the OTR Kroger (if its like any other generic Kroger) would be OK for eggs, dairy, and canned/frozen veggies and stuff like Cheerios, Hellmans Mayo and stuff like that....so I think you could pretty much do a weeks shopping using both places.

 

I recall we used to pretty much do our weeks shopping at Findlay, with very little xtra to get. 

 

 

 

One exception here is the eggs.  Kroger actually charges more for a dozen extra large eggs than Madison's at Findlay Market, and they aren't anywhere near as big or fresh.  The only things I end up buying at Kroger are canned goods, frozen items, paper products, and cheap junk that I probably shouldn't be buying anyway.

>half the size of Walnut Hills or Covington.

 

Google Earth is our friend. 

 

The Camp Washington Kroger was 90x125.

OTR Kroger is 120x130

Walnut Hills is 175x175

Bellevue, KY is 265x190, so way bigger. 

 

 

A lot of people moved into OTR with the expectation that things would "magically happen". I would imagine that if you looked at the OTR Kroger's bottom line right now, most of their sales are on EBT/Assistance cards. That has ben their main demographic for years. From a business standpoint two things have to happen. A more upscale clientel and two, those low income people moving out . Both those things are happening but the reality is you need 25-30 thousand people downtown for a grocery to majorly change its inventory. The money is not there for them to carry gourmet cheeze and wine when the majority of their clientel isn't interested. In the real world I'd predict Kroger would be 5 years out on major changes. I have seen this play out in a couple of cities undergoing urban growth.  It takes time, be patient.

>half the size of Walnut Hills or Covington.

 

Google Earth is our friend. 

 

The Camp Washington Kroger was 90x125.

OTR Kroger is 120x130

Walnut Hills is 175x175

Bellevue, KY is 265x190, so way bigger. 

 

Exactly:   

OTR              120x130  15,600sq ft

Walnut Hills  175x175  30,625 sq ft

Covington      160x200  32,000 sq ft

Bellevue        190x265  50,350 sq ft

Dayton          155x155  24,025 sq ft

Thanks for the help.  I was going to use a photo to measure, but I wasn't totally confident on what made up the OTR Kroger footprint.

 

That Wayne Avenue Kroger for my needs is more than adequate.  In fact I far prefer it to one of the massive stores, Kroger or otherwise. 

 

I guess that 8,400 square feet between OTR and Wayne Avenue makes a huge difference.

Is it the average size store for when it was built?

Anyway, this is old - back when Councilwoman Quinlivan had a real job.....

looks like the old Camp Washington Kroger was smaller than OTR with about 8,272 sq ft

Thanks for posting that video.  I didn't know it was on Youtube.  It's got tons of pre-3CDC views that honestly as a photographer were impossible to get.  I do have a fair number of photos of the area from that time but it was very difficult to take photos on most of the blocks with people yelling at you. 

Wow cool video.  Didn't watch the whole thing, but I think I may eventually.  Honestly it's kind of crazy how much progress we've made, and how detrimental to development ReStoc had been.

Somewhere in there, guess I should have posted the time, Quinlivan interviews the pres of Kroger about the store.

http://www.kentucky.com/2013/02/05/2504596/kroger-announces-plan-for-new.html

"Kroger unveiled plans Tuesday night to demolish its existing grocery on Euclid Avenue next year and build a new one more than 70 percent larger that would offer some rooftop parking.

 

[...] The company is billing the envisioned grocery, which is expected to cost about $15 million, as the first of its type for the company. It will feature a 125-space parking deck on the roof that will be reached via a ramp on the left side of the building. There also will be 99 parking spots in a standard surface lot.

 

[...] A large elevator with room for carts will transport shoppers to the roof. The company also will install a "cartalator," essentially an escalator for carts. Shoppers would not travel on that device but on an adjacent one and would pick up their carts at the top."

 

This is interesting in that this Kroger's is located in Lexington, Kentucky (http://goo.gl/maps/hlQur), and will feature a rooftop parking deck, a cartalator and elevators. There is less room to work with, and with the store abutting against a historic district, it was probably cheaper to build a rooftop garage than to flatten even more residences.

 

This store is not at all similar in design to the new Short North Kroger's in Columbus. It has a much more modern aesthetic, and I presume that the pinkish bricks are actually the standard red brick the company uses elsewhere.

 

I think that this could work very well for downtown, potentially located somewhere on Central Parkway, where there is easy automobile entry/exit. Especially since this was quipped:

 

" 'Our number-one goal is for our customers to not have trouble finding a parking place,' said Danny Lethco, Kroger's real estate manager."

 

What do you think?

Interesting that Kroger would pick Lexington, KY as its first market for an urban store.  Especially after years of building horrendous, suburban style stores in Cincinnati's urban neighborhoods.  I hope the store succeeds and the model can be spread elsewhere, though.

The long blank facade along Marquis Avenue shows that Kroger still does not understand urban street frontages. This proposal, although a step in the right direction, will ultimately fall flat for being a true "urban" grocer.

Last week we had our regular co-op meeting at DAAP, where students looking for co-op placements for the upcoming semester given the rundown on the general job market, which firms have too many applicants, which firms have too few, etc. It's usually pretty dry stuff, but I did learn that Kroger is looking for at least one DAAP co-op student to assist them with the design of an urban grocery store concept. No details were given as to the location or timeline, but I thought I'd pass this along as an encouraging sign.

Last week we had our regular co-op meeting at DAAP, where students looking for co-op placements for the upcoming semester given the rundown on the general job market, which firms have too many applicants, which firms have too few, etc. It's usually pretty dry stuff, but I did learn that Kroger is looking for at least one DAAP co-op student to assist them with the design of an urban grocery store concept. No details were given as to the location or timeline, but I thought I'd pass this along as an encouraging sign.

 

I recall having just recently(within the last couple of months) seen the results of a whole DAAP architecture studio devoted to design concepts for an urban grocery in Cincinnati....not sure if that was at all related to the Kroger co-op position but it would probably have happened at around the same time.

 

Most of the designs were pretty out-there as most architecture concepts, at least those done by students, inevitably end up being. I'll bet that some Kroger execs got a few smiles out of the student's work but that none of it was (or at least seemed to be) practical or business-minded enough to warrant serious attention.

I didn't see them, but sometimes the most ridiculous ideas can be helpful in finding a practical alternative that solves the same problem, yet isn't as pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking and utopian. Though I didn't see the work, so it's hard to tell.

better to focus on community gardens in the city

 

grocery stores are trash anyways

Community gardens don't have meat and milk and a thousand other things grocery stores have...

 

They also don't have 30 floors of residential above them!

Community gardens don't have meat and milk and a thousand other things grocery stores have...

 

They also don't have 30 floors of residential above them!

 

humans dont need to eat/drink that stuff and there are various methods of planting to produce a large amount of food in a small area. you arent going to have 30 floor residential towers on every block. rooftop/vertical gardening could be used.

Cool story bro.

That Krogers in Lexington is in Chevy Chase.  This is sort of a 1920s era neighborhood which has a sort of "Watervliet Avenue in Belmont" (for Dayton people) feel....mix of 1940s/30s/50s retail surrounded by older houses.  The transition era btw walkable and auto-oriented retail.

 

Demographically and market-wise, Chevy Chase is sort of like Hyde Park Square and O'Bryanville...upscale.  "I'm From Chevy Chase and You're Not", like the bumper sticker said (the pun works only with old-school SNL fans).  It's not really a campus-oriented shopping area, tho it does draw on UofK for customers.

 

 

Chevy Chase has been densifying, and this is new Kroger is a good example of where this is headed.  It also conforms to a sort of new policy direction in Lexington to densify within the older parts of the city vs expanding their urban services area....plus, given the affluent market, this store could be a moneymaker for Kroger.....