Right on the money. I don't believe I've contributed to this thread yet, but both of you echo my thoughts. It wouldn't matter if the clientele in OTR demands a better store/selection from Kroger. Why? Because those same people have the means to drive to another, superior store and Kroger knows that. Why would they invest in a new store that serves customers they already serve elsewhere?

 

Not saying it's right or I agree with it, but I understand the business reasoning behind it.

 

The ARE investing in the OTR Kroger.  I honestly believe the OTR Kroger works harder to please their customers more than any other store in the city.  I've been shopping there for 8 years and yes, it USED to be terrible.  It definitely earned its reputation.  But the past three years they've been updating their offerings constantly.  It seems like every two weeks there are new shelves, or updated registers, or new produce sections.  They've got a whole wall of health food options now.  They've chipped away at their collection of 40s and added craft beer selections.

 

I get the impression from those of you who are complaining about the store that you've never actually made it beyond the parking lot.  Yes...the parking lot is an issue.  But as you mention, fixing that issue is a big ticket upgrade.  One they can't actually invest in until the local residents start shopping there more. 

 

I haven't personally seen their books, but I have heard from a few legitimate sources that the past two years that store has actually turned a profit.  There's a chance the store will survive and potential it could expand in the future.  Companies like Kroger don't build small urban store like that anymore, so yes...WE ARE LUCKY to have that store still around after 40 years of perpetually losing business.  The only way it will expand though, is if the neighborhood gets behind and supports it.  GO IN THERE and talk to the manager.  They are working VERY hard to cater to the neighborhood.

 

Meh, that attitude is just too sentimental for me. Really. You're talking about supporting this store like its run by a struggling family grocer. This is Kroger. This is Kroger's global headquarters. If Harris Teeter can build a store in uptown Charlotte and Publix can build a store in downtown Orlando, Kroger can sure as hell build a modern urban format store in the basin.

 

As for made it beyond the parking lot. Well, I feel it's a bit beneath me to bite on that one and vouch for my credentials as an urbanist. Getting back to the topic, this whole issue of grocer vs no grocer at 4th and Race strikes me as the same shenanigans that have been going on with a downtown grocery for a decade. It's just too fishy that Kroger is based here, has a lot of influence, and it's 2014 and there's no downtown grocery.

 

Well apparently Kroger is considering building a new downtown store at Central Parkway & Walnut. (This conversation is spanning multiple threads so I'm not sure what was posted where.)

 

I read that as the developer was wooing Kroger, and that Kroger wouldn't comment. Do you read into that as Kroger is interested? You would have a better sense than I would.

 

Not sure they could not be interested. That parcel is literally their back yard. How embarrassing would it be if the flagship downtown grocery store was say, a Giant Eagle, and it was literally next door to the Kroger headquarters?

That's an interesting thought. What if the developers basically say, "well, we ARE building a grocery store, regardless of operator, and it seems you guys would want that to be you." What other option would Kroger have at that point?

I work at the Kroger headquarters. I seen alot of renderings of a urban Kroger store. Not saying this is for downtown or even for Cincinnati. But they are thinking urban and smaller

 

I was right. Hopefully this doesn't take 7 to 10 years to build

I'd love it if it WERE a Giant Eagle. I always liked their stores better!

Kroger owns so many brands.  Why don't they open a Harris Teeter or something and say it's a NEW brand to Cincinnati?  It's so irritating that we only have one brand to shop at in the city, and it doesn't have to hurt Kroger's bottom line to open some of their other brands here.

Harris Teeter can carry other brands and items that are not in the supply chain for typical Kroger stores, so the distribution costs for some of those items would be prohibitive.

 

I still don't get why other cities, notably Columbus (Oh.) and Lexington (Ky.) can get some very nice Kroger stores, some with parking garages on top and stores built out to the street, while Cincinnati - their homebase, have stores that are completely departed from their environment. Even many smaller cities (I listed some earlier), like Wellston (Oh.), have 20,000-30,000 SF stores!

Speaking of which, WC3PO, travels to Columbus

http://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/kroger-co-kr-explores-downtown-grocery-options-what-would-that-look-like

Kroger owns so many brands.  Why don't they open a Harris Teeter or something and say it's a NEW brand to Cincinnati?  It's so irritating that we only have one brand to shop at in the city, and it doesn't have to hurt Kroger's bottom line to open some of their other brands here.

 

Most of their brands are regional. ie. Harris Teeter is only in the south, Ralphs is only out west, etc.

Kroger owns so many brands.  Why don't they open a Harris Teeter or something and say it's a NEW brand to Cincinnati?  It's so irritating that we only have one brand to shop at in the city, and it doesn't have to hurt Kroger's bottom line to open some of their other brands here.

 

Most of their brands are regional. ie. Harris Teeter is only in the south, Ralphs is only out west, etc.

 

Kroger operates both QFC and Fred Meyer in Seattle. There must be enough brand loyalty that they can justify keeping both brands around. Yet, they quickly eliminated the Thriftway brand here in Cincinnati when they bought up that chain.

Kroger owns so many brands.  Why don't they open a Harris Teeter or something and say it's a NEW brand to Cincinnati?  It's so irritating that we only have one brand to shop at in the city, and it doesn't have to hurt Kroger's bottom line to open some of their other brands here.

 

Most of their brands are regional. ie. Harris Teeter is only in the south, Ralphs is only out west, etc.

 

Kroger operates both QFC and Fred Meyer in Seattle. There must be enough brand loyalty that they can justify keeping both brands around. Yet, they quickly eliminated the Thriftway brand here in Cincinnati when they bought up that chain.

 

QFC and Fred Meyer are completely different types of stores.

Kroger owns so many brands.  Why don't they open a Harris Teeter or something and say it's a NEW brand to Cincinnati?  It's so irritating that we only have one brand to shop at in the city, and it doesn't have to hurt Kroger's bottom line to open some of their other brands here.

 

Most of their brands are regional. ie. Harris Teeter is only in the south, Ralphs is only out west, etc.

 

Kroger operates both QFC and Fred Meyer in Seattle. There must be enough brand loyalty that they can justify keeping both brands around. Yet, they quickly eliminated the Thriftway brand here in Cincinnati when they bought up that chain.

 

QFC and Fred Meyer are completely different types of stores.

 

Kind of like a regular Kroger and a Kroger Marketplace, though.

Regarding this Rookwood Properties development that is being talked about now... If you look at their website, all they've built are crappy looking suburban apartment complexes that look like they will become the next generation of poverty.  The only downtown property they seem to manage is Lytle Tower (the small one, not the big one on the river). I don't know much about that building, other than it apparently got a renovation a couple years ago.

Not to pile on but wanted to pull a plug for my home state and Des Moines, Iowa.  They are a metro area about the size of Dayton but they have an active downtown and progressive leadership.  I know, it is Iowa, but to me Iowa seems very progressive compared to Cincinnati.

 

Anyways, looks like plans are underway to start building in the spring a 30,000 SF Hy-Vee grocery store downtown with 81 apartments above the store on a surface lot.  I think Cincinnati could get moving on this if the administration really wanted to make it happen, considering I believe the downtown/OTR Cincinnati population is a lot higher than downtown Des Moines:

 

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/money/business/development/2014/11/12/growth-development-hy-vee-downtown-construction-begin/18943917/

^^^agreed. And don't discredit Iowa. That state has always been progressive...just with a limited population. They've had marriage equality for what seems like an eternity.  Des Moines, Davenport, Cedar Rapids and Iowa City are all fantastic places. Cincinnati's blessing/curse is Kroger. They've grown as large as they are by being conservative. A downtown grocer will happen here only when they decide that they're ready. Any other grocers attempting to enter the market will get shot down by them.

Not Cincinnati news, but I still thought this was worth posting... very cool new urban grocery store opening in Cleveland: http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2015/01/heinens_downtown_cleveland_sto.html

 

The building is the old Cleveland Trust Bank building, and there's no attached parking. Good for them for not pandering to parking:

 

Q. Where will I park?

 

A. Jeff and Tom Heinen say there is more than enough nearby parking to accommodate hardcore shoppers. It won't say "Heinen's parking" and it won't necessarily be free, but that's not likely to deter the vast majority of shoppers expected to come over on foot."

 

"There's a plethora of options around here. There's absolutely no shortage of lots within a three- to five-block radius of this store," Jeff Heinen said during a recent tour. "We're working on validated parking arrangements for our customers" who spend a certain amount, but those details haven't been ironed out yet. "For people who are coming downtown, there is a fair amount of on-street parking."

 

People can also take the bus or the Regional Transit Authority's Green Line, and bike racks are planned. "In all our focus groups, residents told us universally that given a choice between driving or walking someplace, they always prefer to walk," Tom Heinen added. "They don't ever want to get in their cars if they don't have to. We think there's a tremendous number of people who will walk here."

 

 

Barrett: High-end grocer scouting Downtown spots

 

There are companies with "serious" interest in developing a high-end grocery store Downtown, according to influential Cincinnati business leader John Barrett.

 

Barrett, president and chief executive of Downtown-based Western & Southern Financial Group, said Tuesday he met with people last week who want to develop a store that also sells prepared foods in a Downtown building. He said the independent store could operate in a footprint more commonly found in dense urban areas.

 

Barrett was among several speakers at an event for REDI Cincinnati, a regional economic development organization, celebrating Greater Cincinnati's momentum in securing highly coveted private sector investments.

 

Cont

City administration claims that the redevelopment of 309 Vine will have a grocery component that is larger than the one previously proposed for 4th & Race. That could be what Barrett is referring to.

A Kroger store in Downtown Cincinnati in 1968 ... where "The Chong Inc." is now located.

 

 

Somebody should start a new band called "The Chong". 

Ha that is good. Like if they play as a 3-piece one night they can be called "The Chong" but if they play as a 5-piece they would be "The Chong, Inc." Sorta like Shuckin' Bubba and Shuckin' Bubba Deluxe up here.

The Chong Building is an interesting building. I did not know it was formerly a Kroger, but that explains the expansive loading docks in the rear alley. The whole building is owned by the guy who runs the store (whose name is Chong) and has been for a long time. I've always been curious what is on the upper floors.

Ha that is good. Like if they play as a 3-piece one night they can be called "The Chong" but if they play as a 5-piece they would be "The Chong, Inc." Sorta like Shuckin' Bubba and Shuckin' Bubba Deluxe up here.

 

There used to be a florist on Main St. called "Flowers by Stuart".  It was going to be the name of my band's second album, with an album cover riffing off the Beach Boys' Smile, but the band broke up when two of the guys ran away with sisters to Alaska.  Sadly we only have one low-quality live recording of those songs! 

 

Cross post from the Cincinnati: Kroger thread:

 

Roundy's takeover gives Kroger stronger Downtown store model

 

 

There you go folks. I don't know if you've ever been in a Mariano's in Chicago, but they are exactly the format of store that many of you people have been begging for - highly urban high-end grocery stores. And that's the #1 reason why Kroger wants this merger. Just like Kroger's been learning from previous merger Harris-Teeter about improving customer service, Kroger wants to learn from Mariano's about doing truly urban format grocery stores. (The #2 reason Kroger wants this merger is that it gets Kroger into new areas.)

I would add that Kroger owns Harris Teeter. Their stores in cities are super duper amazing urban format, at least within the DC Market.

 

Kroger definitely has a winning model for urban format stores. It should be added that urban format stores in dense areas can also be regular looking stores, either on one or two levels (see Whole Foods Foggy Bottom DC for two-level urban format, or Safeway Wheaton Maryland for a regular size grocery a at the first floor of a high rise.

Here's an example of an urban Mariano's Fresh Market in Chicago.

Kroger also owns Fred Meyer.  Their new Portland store is perfection. The idea that they couldn't do an urban store until now is a bit silly.

Kroger also owns Fred Meyer.  Their new Portland store is perfection. The idea that they couldn't do an urban store until now is a bit silly.

 

Confirmed. I just shopped there last night for the first time actually. It's great.

Kroger also owns Fred Meyer.  Their new Portland store is perfection. The idea that they couldn't do an urban store until now is a bit silly.

 

giant company and sometimes it's hard to transfer expertise from one division to another.  we're working on it.

Hard to get much more explicit than this:

 

Kroger (NYSE: KR) CFO Mike Schlotman told analysts and investors during a conference call that Kroger plans to learn from Roundy’s prowess in operating urban Mariano’s stores in Chicago and will take that knowledge to other markets.

 

“I look at a market like Cincinnati where the urban core is growing in a big way and we don’t have an urban store there,” Schlotman said. “These folks want to be able to walk to a store. A lot of these learnings (from Mariano’s) would look to satisfy customers’ needs.”

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2015/11/kroger-cfo-latest-acquisition-could-launch.html

And here's the tribune:

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-kroger-roundys-merger-1112-biz-20151111-story.html

 

Btw, lot of Chicagoans view this as a bad thing, because Marianos is an excellent grocery, and as someone who has shopped at both, it beats Kroger hands down in terms of quality of produce.  They also have fantastically designed stores, the flagship in the west loop for instance actually hires a guy to play a piano (I have a feeling that's going to be cut) and has all kinds of different food stations.  They also seriously have a good grasp on urban design and pedestrian friendly stores, the only ones that are a little awkward are converted Dominick's which they acquired a few years back.

 

I'm also wondering if competitor Jewel Osco knew about this and this is the reason why they started selling Cincinnati Chili at their stores (which I learned about through a wonderfully target ad via facebook).

 

Chicago's loss is Cincinnati's gain.

^ Reminds me of when Macy's bought Marshall Field's *sadface*

^ Reminds me of when Macy's bought Marshall Field's *sadface*

 

At least Macy's could hide behind being a NYC company in name lol.  It gives old time "da' bears" Chicagoan's an excuse to complain about New York City (which is kind of a pasttime here).

 

At the very least Marianos is a relatively recent thing, Chicago loves its traditions and Mariano's isn't old enough to get the kind of gut reaction that the renaming of Marshal Field's got - people are worried about quality going down, not part of their city's culture being ruined by outsiders from F***ing NYC.

More background:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/columnists/ct-rosenthal-marianos-kroger-1112-biz-20151111-column.html

 

And to prove this isn't just PR for Cincinnati's urbanites:

"It does open up the possibility for urban stores in other markets as well, where we may not have them, and that's as exciting as being able to take some of the learnings to existing stores," Schlotman said.

 

The quote gets even better in this industry source:

 

http://supermarketnews.com/kroger/kroger-eyeing-urban-expertise-marianos

 

I look at a market like Cincinnati, where the urban core is growing in a big way and a number of people are moving back downtown. We really don't have a store in the urban center that would be the kind of store that the folks would want to shop in,” he confessed.

Kroger is building another Atlanta store integrated into a mixed-use development. And they continue to be silent on urban stores in their hometown.

 

On an unrelated note, the Atlanta development above is replacing an older Kroger store that has earned the nickname of "Murder Kroger". Wow. I thought "Kroghetto" was bad.

I directly asked the CEO of Kroger why we still don't have a quality downtown grocery store and he couldn't give me a good answer. They keep hinting that they may, but it still seems a long way away. I've walked past Court Street recently and what is now parking in the middle of the street once used to be an urban market. This sits at the base of their headquarters. I think it would be awesome to put in a modern grocery back in this location, but with the old market structure feel. What better place to do this than at the foot of their empire? I think it would be a wonderful way to reintegrate back into downtown Cincinnati.

The Vine Street Kroger has regular drug dealing going on in their parking lot.  We stopped by on Sunday to pick up something quick and immediately saw someone with a Kentucky plate pull in, a dealer enter his car to make a transaction and then the buyer promptly pulled out.  When talking with others it sounds like this is a pretty regular occurrence as the management of that Kroger refuses to police their lot and the sidewalk in front of it.  The police are extremely frustrated by their lack of concern with the safety of the area.  Kroger is certainly not a good neighbor.

They are most likely going to do a Mariano's style Kroger if I had to guess.  Its going to take time to integrate them into the merger.

 

I'm hoping that's the case as they pretty much told both Chicago and Cincinnati media that the aquisition was to better understand urban groceries that were missing in their hometown.  See also: http://www.cspnet.com/mergers-acquisition-growth/mergers-acquisitions-news/articles/kroger-has-new-concept-vine

 

Its pretty sad when St Louis which is not nearly as vibrant as Cincy these days and probably has higher poverty levels and yet - it has a proper and good urban Grocery - Schuncks takes good care of their hometown but Kroger does not (at least in terms of providing an urban grocery).  Its shameful.

Kroger is building another Atlanta store integrated into a mixed-use development. And they continue to be silent on urban stores in their hometown.

 

On an unrelated note, the Atlanta development above is replacing an older Kroger store that has earned the nickname of "Murder Kroger". Wow. I thought "Kroghetto" was bad.

 

What's interesting to me about this kind of development is that it isn't really "urban" in the sense of the built form. Instead, it's more like a mash up between a suburban office park and big box retail, surrounded by mostly single family houses. This one project has density, but it isn't part of a walkable form. That's common with lots of newer developments in the south. I'm not sure we have anything exactly analogous in Cincinnati, though Uptown has some similarities. I sure with the University Plaza project had taken cues from this.

If you look at the single family homes within a half mile or so of that Kroger, you will see that many of them are over $500k. So, again this is more close to a suburban model store than a truly urban store. 

 

Kroger's model for deciding where to place stores is largely influenced by the demographics of who lives nearby. In that sense, this project doesn't seem to represent any new thinking in terms of deciding where to locate. The only fresh thinking is that they're at least willing to partner with a developer to let somebody build on top of the grocery store.

Kroger is building another Atlanta store integrated into a mixed-use development. And they continue to be silent on urban stores in their hometown.

 

On an unrelated note, the Atlanta development above is replacing an older Kroger store that has earned the nickname of "Murder Kroger". Wow. I thought "Kroghetto" was bad.

 

What's interesting to me about this kind of development is that it isn't really "urban" in the sense of the built form. Instead, it's more like a mash up between a suburban office park and big box retail, surrounded by mostly single family houses. This one project has density, but it isn't part of a walkable form. That's common with lots of newer developments in the south. I'm not sure we have anything exactly analogous in Cincinnati, though Uptown has some similarities. I sure with the University Plaza project had taken cues from this.

 

That rendering actually reminds me a lot of Kenwood Towne Place (now Kenwood Collection) which has first floor retail and office space above, yet is surrounded by parking is not especially walkable. When Kenwood Towne Place first opened, Kroger opened a Fresh Fare store on the ground floor and I got my hopes up that they would open other similar stores in Greater Cincinnati. However, they did not.

 

The solution for a downtown and OTR store seems so obvious to me. The current Kroger CEO (and a former Kroger CEO) sits on 3CDC's board. Kroger could partner with 3CDC to build a new store at a place like Central Parkway & Walnut that will serve both OTR and Downtown residents. Kroger could then sell the OTR store to 3CDC to be demolished and redeveloped. With 3CDC marching up Vine Street towards the OTR Kroger, now seems like the perfect time to make such a swap.

Or if they don't want to move they could expand their current store by building a mixed use building in the parking lot of their current spot with 4 or 5 stories of housing on top and expand their footprint by a decent amount without having to ever close and fully move.

Or if they don't want to move they could expand their current store by building a mixed use building in the parking lot of their current spot with 4 or 5 stories of housing on top and expand their footprint by a decent amount without having to ever close and fully move.

 

that'd make getting the supply trucks in even more difficult, and they'd need to step up deliveries if they had a bigger store.

 

No, I think the Walnut and Central route is the way to go, if they decide to do something. I'd imagine it will be a little bit - Kroger is now testing a new store concept in Gig Harbor, WA called Main & Vine, plus they're going to be studying their new acquisition of Mariano's.

 

There's no reason for the loading dock to be in the front anyway.  There's parking lots abutting both the north and east sides of the store where they could move all that stuff.  Yes they'd need to buy some of that land, but if they wanted to make it work they totally could. 

Or if they don't want to move they could expand their current store by building a mixed use building in the parking lot of their current spot with 4 or 5 stories of housing on top and expand their footprint by a decent amount without having to ever close and fully move.

 

that'd make getting the supply trucks in even more difficult, and they'd need to step up deliveries if they had a bigger store.

 

No, I think the Walnut and Central route is the way to go, if they decide to do something. I'd imagine it will be a little bit - Kroger is now testing a new store concept in Gig Harbor, WA called Main & Vine, plus they're going to be studying their new acquisition of Mariano's.

 

So.. We could have a Main & Vine on Walnut and a Park & Vine on Main?

I should also note that Park + Vine is going to be reducing their footprint very soon. They currently occupy the entire ground level retail space of their building but will be moving everything into the south half (where the cafe is now). A Business Courier article on the topic said that they are not going to be reducing their merchandise at all, just reorganizing and relying more on vertical shelves. This will allow their landlord to rent out the north half as a separate retail space.

New rendering of Central Parkway grocery store + what looks like apartments above.

 

www.wcpo.com/news/insider/new-site-emerges-for-potential-downtown-grocery-store

New rendering of Central Parkway grocery store + what looks like apartments above.

 

www.wcpo.com/news/insider/new-site-emerges-for-potential-downtown-grocery-store

 

More on that here: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/01/26/plans-for-28m-otr-grocery-store-development-move.html

 

Color me unimpressed: a 9 story building that is half garage, across the street from a 30 story building, and a block west of an 18-story building. Central Parkway needs buildings that are at least the size of the American Building. And good god, please someone propose a project without parking.

Lets hope this gets some rethinking. The thing on the corner is about the cheapest/most suburban way possible to articulate a corner. So generic/boxy. And it's completely unacceptable to remove Doerr Alley for a ramp.