I've had a number of bus drivers give me a puzzled look when I whip out the ticket on the EZ Fare app, like they've never seen it used to pay for the bus before.  Either that or they get slightly aggravated that they need to manually enter something into the system when I board.

Oh well that's too bad. It was awesome to just jump on something, hold my phone up to something, boop and then you're off.

I would love for Metro to eventually accept NFC payments directly at the fare boxes, but I don't think they currently have the equipment in place to support this. I have ridden a few transit systems that work this way and it's so incredibly convenient. I was in Chicago a few weeks ago and it was my first visit since they implemented their Ventra system. To ride the L, I just tapped my phone on the turnstile and it let me in--no buying a transit card, no downloading a special app, no nothing. You tap and you're in.

In Sydney (and London and other places) you just tap your bank card and you’re in. Or your Apple Pay on your phone. You don’t need a special transit card or app. 

 

And if you tap off and then tap back on within 30 minutes, you aren’t charged. So going to do a quick grocery run doesn’t cost you double. 

 

And I'm not sure if they still do it, but when I was living there, if you rode transit Monday-Friday (to work and back, for example) it was free on the weekends. 

Edited September 26, 20195 yr by atlas

10 hours ago, taestell said:

I would love for Metro to eventually accept NFC payments directly at the fare boxes, but I don't think they currently have the equipment in place to support this. I have ridden a few transit systems that work this way and it's so incredibly convenient. I was in Chicago a few weeks ago and it was my first visit since they implemented their Ventra system. To ride the L, I just tapped my phone on the turnstile and it let me in--no buying a transit card, no downloading a special app, no nothing. You tap and you're in.

Unless we're doing all door boarding, it really doesn't matter. 

10 hours ago, atlas said:

In Sydney (and London and other places) you just tap your bank card and you’re in. Or your Apple Pay on your phone. You don’t need a special transit card or app. 

 

And if you tap off and then tap back on within 30 minutes, you aren’t charged. So going to do a quick grocery run doesn’t cost you double. 

 

And I'm not sure if they still do it, but when I was living there, if you rode transit Monday-Friday (to work and back, for example) it was free on the weekends. 

In London, there are daily and weekly caps on how much you pay. So if you spend enough for a day or week pass, you won't pay anything each subsequent time you tap during that day/week.

2 hours ago, thomasbw said:

Unless we're doing all door boarding, it really doesn't matter. 

 

It matters a lot to out-of-town visitors. The other city where I have used NFC payments was in Salt Lake City. It's super convenient to be able to land at the airport, walk over to the light rail station, and tap to get on. Apply Pay just works. There's no need to any research: do they have a multi-day pass? Or should I get a stored value card? Eh, but it costs $5 to get a stored value card, in addition to the fare that I load onto it... Do they have an app? Let me download it over slow airport wifi and then spend 5 minutes inputing all of my credit card information...

There are also these things called quarters and dollar bills.  You carry them around with you and then you give them to the bus driver when you step on the thing.  

20 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

It matters a lot to out-of-town visitors. The other city where I have used NFC payments was in Salt Lake City. It's super convenient to be able to land at the airport, walk over to the light rail station, and tap to get on. Apply Pay just works. There's no need to any research: do they have a multi-day pass? Or should I get a stored value card? Eh, but it costs $5 to get a stored value card, in addition to the fare that I load onto it... Do they have an app? Let me download it over slow airport wifi and then spend 5 minutes inputing all of my credit card information...

That would be useful, apparently didn't realize how NFC worked. 

23 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

There are also these things called quarters and dollar bills.  You carry them around with you and then you give them to the bus driver when you step on the thing.  

 

In Cincinnati most riders are paying in some combination of quarters, dimes, and nickels, and it makes boarding extremely slow. In other cities where most people are using tap cards or NFC, it's significantly faster.

42 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

In Cincinnati most riders are paying in some combination of quarters, dimes, and nickels, and it makes boarding extremely slow. In other cities where most people are using tap cards or NFC, it's significantly faster.

 

There are bag ladies everywhere.  A bag lady, by definition, is slow and disorganized, even if she left her bags at home or has yet to frustrate her destination with her shopping trip.  The array of bags complicate matters on the return trip, or maybe she re-uses her bags, so the bags head out of the house empty and come back full.  Or maybe she needs to return something -- look out world!  There might be two bags in one hand and one in the other.  Bag ladies often attempt to do something without freeing either hand.  The bus starts moving and the different weight of the bags throws the bag lady off-balance.  Change goes flying, a cell phone drops.  

I'd like to have a bag lady's schedule.

29 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

I'd like to have a bag lady's schedule.

 

Apply to grad school.  

That ship has sailed; already have two Ms after my name

SORTA will send this sales tax to voters to improve transit, infrastructure

 

After months of negotiations, city, county and business leaders will announce later today that they will ask Hamilton County voters to approve a 0.8% sales tax to boost Metro’s bus service and improve infrastructure throughout the county, the Business Courier has learned.

 

About three-fourths of the money will go toward the bus service, with roughly a quarter going to infrastructure, such as roads and bridges. The county’s Public Works Integrating Committee, made up of Cincinnati, county, township and small city officials, will decide how the infrastructure money is doled out.

 

At a 3 p.m. news conference today, officials are expected to say that the plan will fully fund the Reinventing Metro plan, including bus-rapid transit service. Cincinnati USA Regional Chamber CEO Jill Meyer, Mayor John Cranley, Hamilton County commissioners Denise Driehaus and Todd Portune, SORTA Chairman Kreg Keesee and Councilman P.G. Sittenfeld are expected to detail the plan.

 

The county commissioners' backing is significant because commissioners long had been at odds with the city and business leaders over the plan to use the sales tax to bolster Metro and retire the 0.3% city earnings tax for transit. City voters will decide in November on a measure that would retire the transit earnings tax if county voters approve a sales tax for Metro and infrastructure. All three commissioners had endorsed a 0.7% sales tax earlier this year. It's unclear if the third commissioner, Stephanie Summerow Dumas, will back the 0.8% rate.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/30/sorta-will-send-this-sales-tax-to-voters-to.html

What a bummer. I wanted at least 0.7% going directly to Metro, and preferably more. Now it looks like we're getting 0.6%. This is going to hold the region back for decades since we won't see an increase in the rate for a generation if this passes. The business community continues to hold the region back.

This is a sham.  Vote No.  

I’m voting yes. The bottom drops out from the existing bus system if this fails. We will be in an even worse position vis a vis public transit in this region if it fails.

 

The infrastructure $ is supposed to be used along transit routes, I’m optimistic it could actually lead to better functioning transit system. 

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by thebillshark

0.67% for SORTA, 0.13% for infrastructure is what I was told. SORTA can always go back and ask for another 0.2% at a later date if its needed. This represents net new funding and allows the City of Cincinnati to drop it's earnings tax to 1.8% which would be by far the lowest of any big city in Ohio. Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Vote yes. 

One on hand though...if it gets turned down, and our transit gets worse, might that be the push we needed to get real (read:rail) transit?

11 minutes ago, seaswan said:

One on hand though...if it gets turned down, and our transit gets worse, might that be the push we needed to get real (read:rail) transit?

 

The timeline for that is too risky and the consequences for existing riders are too real

There's nothing to get excited about in this plan. We were previously told that we need 0.9% to get BRT or 0.7% to get more routes and 24-hour service. Now they're telling us Metro will get "about three-quarters of 0.8%" according to the Business Courier, which is 0.6% -- or if Brad is correct, 0.67% -- but because they are relying on rosy projections about future sales tax revenue (hope our economy doesn't go into a recession!) and federal funding coming our way, we can get "most of the benefits" of the 0.7% plan. I'm not buying it.

 

On 4/9/2019 at 4:41 PM, taestell said:

According to the Reinventing Metro plan, 0.7% isn't enough to fund any BRT, while 0.9% is enough to fund 4 "BRT corridors" if we get an 80% federal match.

 

When I was in LA last month I experienced the overlapping LA/Santa Monica buses.  It makes a ton of sense when you're there and is a logical model for what we could have here.  For example, one route is local in Santa Monica and then gets on I-10 for an express run to DTLA.  Similarly, another route is local in Santa Monica but runs to UCLA with no local stops in LA.    

 

The city earnings taxes could pay for local bus service in the city.  A new county sales tax could pay for express buses that originate in the county and bypass most local stops in the city on their way to UC and Downtown.  

 

Shifting everything to the county is a way for 4th St. and that wannabe 4th streeter John Cranley to wipe their hands clean of any real improvements to local transit.  It's going to be more mediocrity.  

 

 

 

 

 

On 9/26/2019 at 11:55 AM, jmecklenborg said:

There are also these things called quarters and dollar bills.  You carry them around with you and then you give them to the bus driver when you step on the thing.  

Only old people still carry cash. 

For this to pass, the County has to let the music Hall tax passed 5 years ago to expire which is what the voters were promised. To essentially make that part permanent to cover county operating costs would be in bad faith and could really poison the bus levy.

There is no Music Hall tax.

23 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Only old people still carry cash. 

There are old people all over the place-this is Ohio right? And many older and poorer people use public transit, so yeah they are going to use cash. And being an older person I hope the next time you are in line to buy something that three old people are ahead of you, one slowly counting out money, the next fumbling forever in various pockets and folds of clothing for spare change, and the last writing a check..very slowly. ?

 

 

* All three C's should have funded free regional mass transit-like I believe Kansas City is trying to implement right now. Solves this problem. Get on, get off. More riders, less cars on the road, etc. etc.

Edited September 30, 20195 yr by Toddguy

This underwhelming proposal brings up the question I posed a few months ago.

 

What happens if Issue 22 fails and this passes? It seems like the best case scenario for the bus system, i guarantee we don't get BRT without it.

 

Vote no on 22, because COAST absolutely played PG, SORTA and the BBC.  I'm honestly incredibly disappointed in everyone involved in this proposal.

That would be a decent outcome. However I bet if Issue 22 failed, the Chamber would pressure them to take the March issue off the ballot. Because the #1 thing the Chamber wants isn’t better transit, it’s a lower income tax.

8 minutes ago, 10albersa said:

This underwhelming proposal brings up the question I posed a few months ago.

 

What happens if Issue 22 fails and this passes? It seems like the best case scenario for the bus system, i guarantee we don't get BRT without it.

 

Vote no on 22, because COAST absolutely played PG, SORTA and the BBC.  I'm honestly incredibly disappointed in everyone involved in this proposal.

 

Our bus system needs much more public support, not a tax shift.  

 

What, exactly, is the "infrastructure" that will be funded with the rest of the tax?  Seems like a back-door way to pay off port authority/3CDC debt, to the advantage of those private developers who fund local campaigns.  

 

 

 

^ It's just an easy way for them to pay for the Western Hills Viaduct without the city or county having to pay for it out of their budgets. The claim that this tax will only be used to pay for "road infrastructure that will benefit buses" is an attempt to mislead. The number of buses that cross the WHV is probably a single digit percentage of the total number of vehicles that use that structure. So unless they're going to put a transit-only lane on the new bridge, don't tell me that it's somehow "transit related infrastructure".

4 hours ago, Toddguy said:

There are old people all over the place-this is Ohio right? And many older and poorer people use public transit, so yeah they are going to use cash. And being an older person I hope the next time you are in line to buy something that three old people are ahead of you, one slowly counting out money, the next fumbling forever in various pockets and folds of clothing for spare change, and the last writing a check..very slowly. ?

 

 

 

Off-topic, but the more people that refuse to carry even token amount of cash the more power is handed to Visa, Mastercard, the card-issuing banks and card processors while taken from consumers and local businesses. Inelasticity of demand for credit/debit card transactions allows rates to be raised, both interest and processing. That raises prices (yes, on Amazon too) and the amount of money consumers pay in interest charges. Sure you pay it off every month... sure... does everyone?

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 What, exactly, is the "infrastructure" that will be funded with the rest of the tax?  Seems like a back-door way to pay off port authority/3CDC debt, to the advantage of those private developers who fund local campaigns.  

 

 

 

Exactly. I want to know more about this. Everyone says it's going to be for improvements to roads with bus routes on them but theres is no guarantee. 

 

How is this not just a slush fund for road widening and other highway creations after the new WHV is done?  

And of course it transfers from an income tax (which the Rs despise) to a regressive sales tax which Rs love.

SORTA’s levy proposal bans money from being used for streetcar

 

The Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority board passed a resolution 12-1 on Monday to place a 0.8% sales tax levy on the ballot to improve bus service and infrastructure, with the measure barring the revenue from being used for the Cincinnati streetcar.

 

“SORTA will maintain its policy that no tax dollars or resources are expended on the operation or maintenance of the Cincinnati streetcar and will work to finalize the transfer of operations to the city of Cincinnati by Dec. 31, 2019,” the resolution said.

 

The notion that the levy would be used to prop up the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar has been a talking point for months among conservatives opposed to the levy on social media.

 

“We intend to have a separation so there can be no confusion,” said SORTA Chairman Kreg Keesee.

 

The plan as of now is for the SORTA board to pass the ballot language in November for a March 17, 2020 levy. But the resolution does allow some flexibility if the date needs to change to November 2020. It’s also unclear whether the streetcar language will be included in the ballot language, but it could be, Keesee said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/30/sorta-s-levy-proposal-bans-money-from-being-used.html

why does it seem like everything in this city is extremely "tribalistic" ?

 

Obviously this isnt an issue specifically to cincy, but it really does seem like its exacerbated here. 

11 hours ago, ColDayMan said:

SORTA’s levy proposal bans money from being used for streetcar

 

The Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority board passed a resolution 12-1 on Monday to place a 0.8% sales tax levy on the ballot to improve bus service and infrastructure, with the measure barring the revenue from being used for the Cincinnati streetcar.

 

“SORTA will maintain its policy that no tax dollars or resources are expended on the operation or maintenance of the Cincinnati streetcar and will work to finalize the transfer of operations to the city of Cincinnati by Dec. 31, 2019,” the resolution said.

 

The notion that the levy would be used to prop up the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar has been a talking point for months among conservatives opposed to the levy on social media.

 

“We intend to have a separation so there can be no confusion,” said SORTA Chairman Kreg Keesee.

 

The plan as of now is for the SORTA board to pass the ballot language in November for a March 17, 2020 levy. But the resolution does allow some flexibility if the date needs to change to November 2020. It’s also unclear whether the streetcar language will be included in the ballot language, but it could be, Keesee said.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/09/30/sorta-s-levy-proposal-bans-money-from-being-used.html

 

Now coast will just lie about the levy going to the streetcar. It doesn't matter what we do, coast will lie, the news outlets will continue to go to them for comments despite their lying, and treat everything as a he-said-she-said story. The leadership in this area gets fooled every time by these idiots.

The fact that there isn't a rail component on this tax push means people aren't going to care much oh wait, COAST will make it about rail, even though it explicitly is not. 

 

What backers of this tax shift don't get is that that there is no reason to go out there and knock on doors and put all sorts of effort and heart behind something that only offers an incremental improvement.  That same effort could get us the transformative funding source that this area needs. 

 

8 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

The leadership in this area gets fooled every time by these idiots.

 

Jason Williams is objectively stupid.  The guy - literally - would not have been permitted to cover local politics at my college newspaper. 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, thomasbw said:

 Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Vote yes. 

 

I'm not advocating a position on how people should vote, but I do take some issue with the "let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good" mentality that has been expressed on this topic in many places over the years. 

Perfect would be a truly comprehensive, multi-modal transit system that truly spans the entire region. 

Ambitious would be a rail component. 

Striving for better-than-average and learning from a peer city with be (at best) including a BRT component similar to Indy's new Red Line and (at worst) mimicking Cleveland's Health Line. 

As a citizen who has used transit in this region for a decade—what I see being proposed is more of the same in terms of Cincinnati attitudes. I'll echo what others have said here: if this passes, that's it. For a long time. There won't be a larger push for better transit. And despite some of the grassroots efforts here, while absolutely well intended, I think this region needs to strive not just for "more," but even just the bare minimum. This is a region that lacks rapid transit. This current proposal does little, if nothing, to advance the "rapid" aspect of it. 

Many are not letting "perfect be the enemy of the good," they're just seeing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity slip away at the expense of what has become a typical Cincinnati notion: a compromised, limited improvement, politically motivated plan that while it will improve day-to-day service does very little for expanding transit throughout the region and will not be something that can shape the attitudes and habits of a greater-community towards using transit. 

And of course, we just had to include roads and line the proposal with vague language. 

I'll keep an open mind, but seeing how this plan has devolved over the years to this—it's very hard to be excited. 

Quote

The sales tax would fully fund the Reinventing Metro Plan approved by the Board in January after extensive community engagement. This plan will be used for service improvements, including updating Metro’s bus fleet, new transit centers and park and rides, adding new routes, providing longer service hours, increased frequency and improved service for Access, which serves individuals with disabilities. Twenty-five percent of the funds will be used towards infrastructure projects, such as repairs to sidewalks, roads, bridges, etc. within Hamilton County.

https://www.go-metro.com/news/917/72/S.O.R.T.A.-BOARD-APPROVES-0.8-HAMILTON-COUNTY-SALES-TAX-LEVY-FOR-MARCH-2020/d,News Detail Sample

 

Via the news release, SORTA doesn't even mention BRT, they mention a fully funded Reinventing Metro plan, and that website still mentions BRT.   It seems as though they are not willing to commit to it at all, which is a bad idea.  At the press conference, they mentioned how Ham Co is losing young people to other cities because of the bus system.  Well, extending it to 24hrs, adding a few crosstowns and increasing the frequency isn't enough to excite young people.  No one with a car on the hot spot outskirts of the city (Pleasant Ridge, Madisonville, College Hill, Westwood) is going to ride the bus that takes 2x as long as driving.

 

Indy's BRT launch was exciting and created enthusiasm among all types of citizens, just follow that game plan and this achieves that goal of catching the eye of young people.  Advertise a Madison Rd or Hamilton Ave BRT during the campaign season and you'll generate great enthusiasm.

There is no obvious applicable corridor for "BRT", as the term has been used in Cleveland and Indianapolis.  

 

Look at schedules from before the circa-2011 cuts.  There used to be 5+ buses per hour, per direction on Clifton Ave. from Skyline down to OTR.  Now it's often just 1.  

12 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

There is no obvious applicable corridor for "BRT", as the term has been used in Cleveland and Indianapolis.  

 

That's certainly not true. There are multiple good routes. Glenway, Reading, Hamilton, Madison, Montgomery. Our system of way-too-wide radial roadways is actually a benefit in this respect. 

Just now, DEPACincy said:

 

That's certainly not true. There are multiple good routes. Glenway, Reading, Hamilton, Madison, Montgomery. Our system of way-too-wide radial roadways is actually a benefit in this respect. 

 

They're wide, but not wide enough for each type of possible use to have its own lane for long stretches, and few of them have parallel routes. As I mentioned previously, this makes it very difficult to dedicate a lane for transit through a neighborhood business district. 

15 hours ago, taestell said:

^ It's just an easy way for them to pay for the Western Hills Viaduct without the city or county having to pay for it out of their budgets. The claim that this tax will only be used to pay for "road infrastructure that will benefit buses" is an attempt to mislead. The number of buses that cross the WHV is probably a single digit percentage of the total number of vehicles that use that structure. So unless they're going to put a transit-only lane on the new bridge, don't tell me that it's somehow "transit related infrastructure".

 

The number of buses as a percentage of total vehicles isn't as important as total number of people crossing in buses. The 6, 21, 27, and 49 all cross the viaduct. I'm not even convinced that the WHV is as integral to the region as everyone claims it is. But one thing is definitely true, and that is that thousands of bus riders cross it daily. 

1 minute ago, thebillshark said:

 

They're wide, but not wide enough for each type of possible use to have its own lane for long stretches, and few of them have parallel routes. As I mentioned previously, this makes it very difficult to dedicate a lane for transit through a neighborhood business district. 

 

Right. That's why you don't dedicate a lane through the business districts. You dedicate a lane between them. You're not losing much in the grand scheme of things that way. 

1 minute ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Right. That's why you don't dedicate a lane through the business districts. You dedicate a lane between them. You're not losing much in the grand scheme of things that way. 

 

There’s stretches of residential along Glenway or Harrison where you could dedicate the curb lane without too much of a battle over lost parking, but busses generally don’t get slowed down in these areas anyway

2 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Right. That's why you don't dedicate a lane through the business districts. You dedicate a lane between them. You're not losing much in the grand scheme of things that way. 

 

Except for being able to slip through the most congested areas, which is kind of the whole point.  No Madison Road BRT plan will have any real benefit if the buses are stuck in the O'Bryonville or Oakley Square logjams during the evening rush.  Dedicated lanes through East Walnut Hills and Hyde Park would be of little use since that's not where there's traffic.  And let's be real, BRT needs the equivalent of a dedicated light-rail corridor, except it's paved with concrete instead of having tracks, which generally needs Central Parkway sized streets to work on.  Bus-only lanes are not BRT, they're simple express/limited buses.  We need that too, it's just not BRT. 

3 hours ago, seaswan said:

why does it seem like everything in this city is extremely "tribalistic" ?

 

Obviously this isnt an issue specifically to cincy, but it really does seem like its exacerbated here. 

 

Because none of our current leaders care about the streetcar, whether that means just fixing the problems with the existing route or--heaven forbid--putting forward a bold vision for transit that includes expanding the streetcar to reach other neighborhoods. It's easier for them to just build a wall between the streetcar and Metro and say "none of the bus money will go to the streetcar" and they are dumb enough to think that this will get COAST to shut up and not oppose the Metro sales tax.

2 hours ago, Gordon Bombay said:

 

I'm not advocating a position on how people should vote, but I do take some issue with the "let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good" mentality that has been expressed on this topic in many places over the years. 

Perfect would be a truly comprehensive, multi-modal transit system that truly spans the entire region. 

Ambitious would be a rail component. 

Striving for better-than-average and learning from a peer city with be (at best) including a BRT component similar to Indy's new Red Line and (at worst) mimicking Cleveland's Health Line. 

As a citizen who has used transit in this region for a decade—what I see being proposed is more of the same in terms of Cincinnati attitudes. I'll echo what others have said here: if this passes, that's it. For a long time. There won't be a larger push for better transit. And despite some of the grassroots efforts here, while absolutely well intended, I think this region needs to strive not just for "more," but even just the bare minimum. This is a region that lacks rapid transit. This current proposal does little, if nothing, to advance the "rapid" aspect of it. 

Many are not letting "perfect be the enemy of the good," they're just seeing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity slip away at the expense of what has become a typical Cincinnati notion: a compromised, limited improvement, politically motivated plan that while it will improve day-to-day service does very little for expanding transit throughout the region and will not be something that can shape the attitudes and habits of a greater-community towards using transit. 

And of course, we just had to include roads and line the proposal with vague language. 

I'll keep an open mind, but seeing how this plan has devolved over the years to this—it's very hard to be excited. 

So - what are the odds of this passing? It seems as if it is hated by a lot of people. There is still a ton the County can do to poison the well on this  (such as not letting the Union Terminal Sales tax roll off) as well as if the earnings tax repeal fails in the city.  However, taking things as they are now, is the feeling that this passes ?

2 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

There is still a ton the County can do to poison the well on this (such as not letting the Union Terminal Sales tax roll off)

 

Just to be clear, the Union Terminal sales tax expires after 5 years. What the Hamilton County commissioners are talking about is putting a new tax on the ballot that will go to the county's budget. This is not a situation like the stadium tax where there were vague promises of the tax expiring after 30 years but it wasn't actually put into the ballot issue, so it'll probably continue forever.