Since it was mentioned that race (and class) wasn't much discussed as it pertains to urban matters and searching before posting this found that to be true, so I figure a thread dedicated to this subject would be a good idea. As the title implies I think it would be best to offer solutions instead of just listing off what's wrong.

 

Now before I start keep in mind when I say the "black community" that I am not saying X is true of all black people, but it is for a good portion.

 

Education is severely lacking. This is the fault of the city and the black community. One thing I would suggest be taught in schools in poor, predominantly black neighborhoods is critical thought. Critical thinking skills, if taught & taken seriously, would give those inner city kids an edge over their suburban counterparts. Unfortunately, the black community does not value education, they value religion instead.

 

Religion, especially conservative religion which values credulity to the exclusion of good education, simply doesn't yield a conscientious, intelligent populace. In the black community, being gay is far worse than being in a gang and killing people. Those are some fucked up priorities and the religious perspective prevalent in the black community plays a large role. Sadly, that role is to keep people dumb and fill preachers' pockets with their money, which perpetuates the status quo. This certainly applies to white people too. Poor whites in the South are generally very religiously conservative and that contributes to the social ills within their community.

 

Drug laws only work in the gangs favor. Without them, they would not be able to have nearly as much money as they do now to function. Take out the get-rich-quick factor and gangs suddenly lose a lot of appeal. Even with drug laws, there is no excuse for allowing the current state of urban blight & crime. Of course, a large number of people in jail are people who do any type of currently illegal drug are black and they are the ones who get a blemished record, not nearly as many of their white counterparts do. Discrimination is a factor, but one that is easily surmountable for the most part.

 

Personally, I think parents should be held accountable for their childrens actions. If you raise a gangsta, that was something you brought into this world and until he's living on his own the parents are complicit. If that's a risk one doesn't want to take, well you don't have to have kids.

 

Last one I can think of is the requirement to act "black". Dressing a certain way and talking a certain way need to be met. I know blacks who speak standard English and they are told they're talking "white" by others. If you go to college, that's acting "white". 

 

Getting the black community to strongly support education and realize that faith is not a cure-all is what needs to be done and that is a dialogue that is difficult to have when there is no personal contact made, no forum provided to have the discussion in, let alone one with local leaders of the black community. The internet could play a very limited role in getting these ideas out, but you'd have to seek this information on your own.

 

And how could I forget, low-density urban blight makes it harder for people who really can't afford cars and in the case of Columbus I could just imagine the difficulty in depending on COTA to get you to work on time. Hopefully, one of the future extensions for the streetcars goes through east Broad St so that some people there can have a reliable form of transportation. I think the reason why that will be put off is to not scare off people when this first hits the ground. Notice the firstline will go from German Village through downtown to the Short North and possibly the Arena District. Not many blacks or poor will be utilizing that.

Education is severely lacking. This is the fault of the city and the black community.

 

And the suburbanites and the American government.

 

One thing I would suggest be taught in schools in poor, predominantly black neighborhoods is critical thought. Critical thinking skills, if taught & taken seriously, would give those inner city kids an edge over their suburban counterparts. Unfortunately, the black community does not value education, they value religion instead.

 

Totally incorrect.  They value education as much as religion, but when educational levels are that of Angola, what does THAT tell you?  I'd argue that many in the black value education MUCH more than religion, though they have no choice (economcially) to send their kids to, say, a St. Charles or DeSales.  Critical thinking will not help these kids (if anything, the inner-city children do more critical thinking then their often sheltered suburbanite friends).  Contacts and connections is what these children need (as life is all about "who you know").

 

Religion, especially conservative religion which values credulity to the exclusion of good education, simply doesn't yield a conscientious, intelligent populace. In the black community, being gay is far worse than being in a gang and killing people. Those are some fucked up priorities and the religious perspective prevalent in the black community plays a large role.

 

It's not a black issue.  It's an American issue.  As mentioned, rural Appalachia and even extreme wealth of New Albany can often be as cultured as a Cuban discussing Boston.  So I suggest an UNDERSTANDING of communities and perhaps community interaction besides being an isolationist looking into a "different world."

 

Drug laws only work in the gangs favor. Without them, they would not be able to have nearly as much money as they do now to function. Take out the get-rich-quick factor and gangs suddenly lose a lot of appeal. Even with drug laws, there is no excuse for allowing the current state of urban blight & crime. Of course, a large number of people in jail are people who do any type of currently illegal drug are black and they are the ones who get a blemished record, not nearly as many of their white counterparts do. Discrimination is a factor, but one that is easily surmountable for the most part.

 

Ah, the American ideal.

 

Personally, I think parents should be held accountable for their childrens actions. If you raise a gangsta, that was something you brought into this world and until he's living on his own the parents are complicit. If that's a risk one doesn't want to take, well you don't have to have kids.

 

I wish life were so simple. It isn't.  Study urban America first and understand why Sha'quana will allow her kids to deal drugs.  And here's a hint: It isn't because she thinks it's good for kids to understand the Ten Crack Commandments.

 

Last one I can think of is the requirement to act "black". Dressing a certain way and talking a certain way need to be met. I know blacks who speak standard English and they are told they're talking "white" by others. If you go to college, that's acting "white". 

 

Often overestimated by whites (but that's fine, as it's a different perspective).  Urban blacks who typically say "they act white" aren't usually due to their speech patterns or education level.  It is more culture, in terms of "liking Green Day or Britney Spears" vs. "Ciara and Stat Quo."  Moreso, many urban, poorer blacks feel as if they need help by other more successful blacks (meaning, "How you gonna help get me out of the hood?") and many successful blacks usually turn their back and move on (thus the whole "Dating a white girl" thing).  It's a pity, but whatever.

 

Getting the black community to strongly support education and realize that faith is not a cure-all is what needs to be done and that is a dialogue that is difficult to have when there is no personal contact made, no forum provided to have the discussion in, let alone one with local leaders of the black community. The internet could play a very limited role in getting these ideas out, but you'd have to seek this information on your own.

 

Trust me, they realize they need strong education.  The problem is, they aren't getting it (funding, corruption, etc).  Faith is as strong as in black America as it is in white America (meaning, hypocrisy).  People generally have symplistic visions of what blacks could do or what Hispanics could do or whatnot.  Hell, there are simplistic visions of what Iraq could do.  Life isn't that simple, unfortunately, and what is REALLY needed is COOPERATION between the "yuppies," the "politicians," the "suburbanites," and the "minorities inhabiting the Far Rockaways and East Columbus'."  How often do whites take part in African-American festivals, concerts (besides wiggers), and poetry sessions?  Vice-versa, how often do blacks take part in the Gallery Hop, Mirror Lake jumpings for Michigan game, and taking in fine-cuisine at Dragonfly Neo-V?  Solve that problem first before getting into "what we could do" or "what they could do."

A wonderful video to understand the plight of urban America is Flag Wars, which is about Olde Town East. 

Since it was mentioned that race (and class) wasn't much discussed as it pertains to urban matters

 

I was the one who made that statement and the context was more in terms of white peoples negative stereotypes of blacks which led to white flight from urban Ohio and now, perhaps, leads to "white avoidance"?  How much of this is out-and-out racism and how much is ignorance is a question, true.  But this isn't what the thread header is about and I don't want to hijack the thread, just a clarification of the context of my statement.

 

 

 

 

Totally incorrect.  They value education as much as religion, but when educational levels are that of Angola, what does THAT tell you?  I'd argue that many in the black value education MUCH more than religion, though they have no choice (economcially) to send their kids to, say, a St. Charles or DeSales.  Critical thinking will not help these kids (if anything, the inner-city children do more critical thinking then their often sheltered suburbanite friends).  Contacts and connections is what these children need (as life is all about "who you know").

 

If they do, they're not pursuing it, are going about it the wrong way, or it's something else. Money is a part of it, but I don't see how 'not enough money' = the current situation. What evidence makes you so sure that a majority do value education as much as you say? Granted, if poor urban schools received comparable funding to suburban schools we could see the answer.  However, our government simply doesn't have the money and that's why it's spending 1 billion dollars in Iraq...weekly. I don't see critical thinking prevalent among the poor inner city or suburbs and I find it hard to believe that it would do nothing to help.

 

Faith is as strong as in black America as it is in white America (meaning, hypocrisy)

 

Let me clarify, yes that statement is true. However, it is what they have faith in that differs. The black community has faith in a much more conservative version of Christianity in significatly larger numbers.

 

 

A wonderful video to understand the plight of urban America is Flag Wars, which is about Olde Town East. 

I saw that and found it very insightful.

 

Since it was mentioned that race (and class) wasn't much discussed as it pertains to urban matters

 

I was the one who made that statement and the context was more in terms of white peoples negative stereotypes of blacks which led to white flight from urban Ohio and now, perhaps, leads to "white avoidance"?  How much of this is out-and-out racism and how much is ignorance is a question, true.  But this isn't what the thread header is about and I don't want to hijack the thread, just a clarification of the context of my statement.

 

Thanks for the clarification and if what you mentioned wants to be discussed, well these things always find a way to get off topic and at least that is a related issue.

If they do, they're not pursuing it, are going about it the wrong way, or it's something else. Money is a part of it, but I don't see how 'not enough money' = the current situation. What evidence makes you so sure that a majority do value education as much as you say? Granted, if poor urban schools received comparable funding to suburban schools we could see the answer.  However, our government simply doesn't have the money and that's why it's spending 1 billion dollars in Iraq...weekly. I don't see critical thinking prevalent among the poor inner city or suburbs and I find it hard to believe that it would do nothing to help.

 

I never said it was about money.  I said opportunity and connections (which help ANYBODY in life).  It's common sense.  As for "what evidence," it's like asking me "what do you know about being black?"  I AM black, I SEE the community on a daily basis, and I KNOW the issues from, guess what, a black perspective.  Critical thinking is irrelevant when trying to survive through life (as we all have some form of it).

 

Let me clarify, yes that statement is true. However, it is what they have faith in that differs. The black community has faith in a much more conservative version of Christianity in significatly larger numbers.

 

Tell the southern white Baptists that.  Or tell the Catholic Italians of Philadephia.  Hell, tell ANYBODY that.  The black community is so large that one cannot generalize that they are "in a conservative version of Christianity" without pointing the fact that the conservative right of this country are majority WHITE.  Being black simply means it is more visible, especially in matters that one sees from an outside perspective that can corrected.

I never said it was about money.  I said opportunity and connections (which help ANYBODY in life).  It's common sense.  As for "what evidence," it's like asking me "what do you know about being black?"  I AM black, I SEE the community on a daily basis, and I KNOW the issues from, guess what, a black perspective.  Critical thinking is irrelevant when trying to survive through life (as we all have some form of it).

 

I thought money was one of your main points from the St. Charles mention, so that kinda confused me. Connections certainly play a big role, I agree, and a lot of poor people of any stripe are basically left out. From your experience, that sounds like evidence to me.

 

Let me clarify, yes that statement is true. However, it is what they have faith in that differs. The black community has faith in a much more conservative version of Christianity in significatly larger numbers.

 

Tell the southern white Baptists that.  Or tell the Catholic Italians of Philadephia.  Hell, tell ANYBODY that.  The black community is so large that one cannot generalize that they are "in a conservative version of Christianity" without pointing the fact that the conservative right of this country are majority WHITE.  Being black simply means it is more visible, especially in matters that one sees from an outside perspective that can corrected.

 

Yes, there are more white, very conservative Christians but they are a minority among all whites. Southern white baptists in the South are the majority there and are worse off for it. I'm certain those kind of Christians exist in a higher percentage among blacks. There are plenty of baptist churches in poor, urban black neighborhoods, and I don't recall seeing any liberal Christian churches, though perhaps you could fill me in on the presence of mainstream churches. Which makes me wonder how many of those baptist churches are strong advocates of education?

I thought money was one of your main points from the St. Charles mention, so that kinda confused me. Connections certainly play a big role, I agree, and a lot of poor people of any stripe are basically left out. From your experience, that sounds like evidence to me.

 

The St. Charles mention was more about access than money (as I believe St. Charles and other Catholic schools offer scholarships towards Catholic elementary students).

 

Yes, there are more white, very conservative Christians but they are a minority among all whites. Southern white baptists in the South are the majority there and are worse off for it. I'm certain those kind of Christians exist in a higher percentage among blacks. There are plenty of baptist churches in poor, urban black neighborhoods, and I don't recall seeing any liberal Christian churches, though perhaps you could fill me in on the presence of mainstream churches. Which makes me wonder how many of those baptist churches are strong advocates of education?

 

They are a minority?  If we are doing generalizations, I'd say white America is very conservative with a very vocal, smaller minority of liberals (as evident by suburbia).

 

I'm certain those kind of Christians exist in a higher percentage among blacks.

 

Eh, I don't know about that.  I'd say there are just as many black athiests as white athiests, percentage-wise.  Hell, the ghetto isn't exactly a Christian-friendly environment.  If anything, the church in urban America is a crutch, a place for food and socialization moreso than simple faith and values. 

 

There are plenty of baptist churches in poor, urban black neighborhoods, and I don't recall seeing any liberal Christian churches, though perhaps you could fill me in on the presence of mainstream churches.

 

I'd like to know of ANYWHERE there is a liberal church, besides in yuppie areas in which it is a mere opposition of the conservative right's grip (meaning, that church at the corner of King and Neil).

I'd have to agree that white America is very conservative, but not of the intense religious fervor kind, but the WASP kind. No doubt elections maps make it very clear where the suburbs stand on issues.

 

There is that one downtown, United Church of Christ, actually I think just about all of them signed onto that IRS complaint against Parsley. Unfortunately, I can't find that pdf right now, but here's something http://www.webelieveohio.org/ and http://www.stonewallcolumbus.org/resources/interfaith_guide.aspx since being gay-friendly is a good indicator of liberal churches. I think you're right about the number of black atheists as I've met quite a few.

Blacks have suffered in part because of our reluctance to assimilate.  The Hispanics, the Japanese, the Italians, etc. have had far better results because of their willingness to assimilate.  Their culture has become a commodity to the United States due in part to White America's fascination with exotic cultures.  At the same time, the Black culture (or what's left of the Black culture) has been pilferaged for the socio-economic gains of other cultures...primarily the White American culture.  Black Americans have and will always be at an economic, social, political, and educational disadvantage as a result of the protectionist policy of institutionalized racism.  It is not something that we can't overcome.  But damn always having to overcome...why not just make it fair and equitable in the first place?  Alas, as the saying goes, in order for capitalism to thrive, there must always be an active underclass.  What the larger majority is failing to acknowledge is that Black Americans are the only group of individuals that DID NOT voluntarily come to this country only to be stripped of their culture, identity, heritage, and history (and I don't make that statement to say that I don't love the country my ancestors built).  The past has never been fully acknowledged, addressed, and corrected.  The interest simply does not exist.  I am not about holding onto the pains of the past.  The individuals that have historically (and to this day) wielded the power don't care enough about our past; otherwise, we would not be having this discussion.  That's my two-cents on that issue.

 

One of my biggest concerns regarding the Black community is our overall attitudes towards the medical community.  Our fears and concerns are not without merit.  At the same time, we must become more vocal about our healthcare needs within the research/scientific community.  We need to go directly to the source and stop waiting for "the government" to address what's ailing us.  One way to do this is to encourage Black children, male and female alike, to embrace Math and Science.  We need more Black doctors, medical researchers, scientists, etc.  If the presence of Blacks increased in the medical community, then this would help bridge the gap.  The reason that Blacks are so demanding of social service agencies is because of the historic presence of Black individuals, namely Black females, in that field.  There's a level of trust that is already there because "someone like me" is "helping" me obtain a needed service. 

 

The schools are in the shape that they are in for one reason: the teaching profession has been one of the easiest route to the upper echelons of Black society.  As Blacks explore other professional areas, this field is losing its luster.  Blacks are knocking down walls in other career areas...not just those we have historically had a huge presence.  Black teachers have, for the most part, been confined to teaching in inner-city schools.  There is a dilemma now because inner-cities schools are sputtering and have been for a while.  It has become a tug-o-war between job protection and educating inner-city students.  Where do you place the ever decreasing funding these schools are receiving?  Job protection seems to be winning out over the education of our children.

No need to emphasize that "Italians ARE White" since that is not "news" to me.  I was merely pointing out groups that historically have had to endure the wrath of White American supremacy. 

 

BTW, this is a thread about solutions.  What do you suppose we do to address the problems within the Black community?

"...but it didn't take long for the English to realize how damn small their population was compared to immigrant groups from Germany, Ireland, etc..."

 

This is still happening.  The "English" have no problem now with groups that have historically been deemed "minority groups" referring to themselves as White.  

I'd like to know of ANYWHERE there is a liberal church, besides in yuppie areas in which it is a mere opposition of the conservative right's grip (meaning, that church at the corner of King and Neil).

 

There are actually a lot of semi-liberal Catholics in cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Toledo, Milwaukee, Chicago, Boston, NYC, etc. Northern Catholics vote far more liberal than many other Christian religious groups. The Catholic church has a very good number of Democrats.

 

Eh, I'd hardly call Detroit, Toledo, etc "liberal."  Voting Democratic, sure.  Unionized, sure.  Anti-Iraq, sure.  But Detroit being called "liberal" is like calling Boston "the blackest city in America."

 

Oh yeah, another thing blacks could do to solve some of the current problems is have more babies, lots of them, especially if they could be mixed with white genes. Same goes for Latinos, Asians, Indians, Arabs, etc. Realistically though, having babies is not cheap nor easy. Even with all their wealth, many parts of white America have low birth rates and they will quickly fade away unless America cuts off all immigration or birth rates for all ethnic groups stagnate (not likely). I think that's the underlying cause behind all the Mexican border paranoia going on right now.

 

Err....I don't even know how to respond to that...

I wouldn't even call Portland, Oregon "true" liberalism.  I'd argue that inner-city Atlanta (meaning, the more diverse sections) is perhaps "liberal," as it's an infusion of races, cultures, sexual preferences, religions/non-religious, etc.

 

To me, liberal means the following:

 

-Belief that everyone is entitled to a fair shot in life regardless of race, religion, or skin color

-Belief that our enviroment needs to preserved with utmost importance

-Belief that violence is used only as a last resort. It's never the first option.

-Belief that women deserve the same respect and privileges in life as men.

 

Then why did you call Detroit, Toledo, etc "liberal?" ;)

 

But I do agree on a whole, true liberalism is quite dead on the political forefront (though not in reality).

Acting.

BTW, this is a thread about solutions.  What do you suppose we do to address the problems within the Black community?

Look at what has worked in the past.  There is a sizeable black middle class that obviously has it's act together.  I see it everyday at my current work in some Cincinnati suburbs (eg: Finneytown, Forest Park and Springfield twp.)  They have plain cars, typical jobs, some money and they are struggling up the economic ladder.  They also have middle class values, like the protestant work ethic and delayed gratification.

 

The left-behind group in the city are the ones we are all talking about that seem so hopeless.  Years ago I worked with many people in this second group.  Some were eager workers when given the chance, but many were late for work a lot or were always copping an attitude with the boss (and this was with a non-profit with part of it's goal to support them).  None had much of a supportive family.

 

And that is because the family is in shambles in the slums, and better schools is not the solution.  There are some great teachers and great resources in the schools and you can get a good education in a city school if you have the support among friends and family.

 

At the playgrounds and city pools, I will see dozens of black children, as young as seven with no adult supervision.  And this is in the middle of the city with god knows who on the corner leering or at the bench by the playground passed out.  At the pool I was often the only adult male this summer.  I even had a few people comment on it to me.  Things like "It's great to see a father with his kids".  The few times a black father was there the kids loved it, and got into all kinds of splashing and dunking.  It warmed my heart, while it lasted. 

 

What chance do these seven-year olds have?  In our competitive and prejudiced world, the cards are definitely stacked against them.  What could save them?  A caring teacher, pastor a neighbor?  I think a diverse, interactive neighborhood could make a difference.  I saw kids the other day talking with the firemen at the local station building those relationships with working adults.  And sometimes you see neighborhood kids help at local shops or at the market.  They are making critical connections and building skills that may help them years from now.

 

We should encourage, or at least allow children to assist at workplaces.  Children should live where they see people working all the time.  I hate ghettos and cul-de-sacs because the kids living there don't see the machinery of life!  We should try to build neighborhoods full of life.

 

Critical thinking will not help these kids (if anything, the inner-city children do more critical thinking then their often sheltered suburbanite friends).  Contacts and connections is what these children need (as life is all about "who you know").

My point exactly!

We should encourage, or at least allow children to assist at workplaces.  Children should live where they see people working all the time.  I hate ghettos and cul-de-sacs because the kids living there don't see the machinery of life!  We should try to build neighborhoods full of life.

 

Bingo, bingo, and bingo.

So...

When was the last time you listened to a Muddy Waters tune?

 

We should encourage, or at least allow children to assist at workplaces.  Children should live where they see people working all the time.  I hate ghettos and cul-de-sacs because the kids living there don't see the machinery of life!  We should try to build neighborhoods full of life.

 

Absolutely...

 

...not

^Tsk tsk.

 

So...

When was the last time you listened to a Muddy Waters tune?

 

Weird that you ask that as a couple of days ago, I heard Rollin' And Tumblin' played in a Best Buy out in Dublin.

^Tsk tsk.

 

So...

When was the last time you listened to a Muddy Waters tune?

 

Weird that you ask that as a couple of days ago, I heard Rollin' And Tumblin' played in a Best Buy out in Dublin.

 

Well, that Best Buy, as long as I can remember, has had the best blues selection of any Best Buy I've been to (Columbus & Baton Rouge markets only).

The problem with pop culture today is that if you're "normal", it portrays you as crazy/hopelessly dull.  By normal I mean someone who lives by fairly abstemious/disciplined principals, takes marriage/relationships and child rearing seriously, takes work seriously and saves money in a systematic fashion.  Being a contributor to your local community is not something that pop culture extols or rewards.  Everything out there is telling you are wrong if you are positive, even disastrously today's pathetic educational trends. 

 

A bit off topic, but the present climate at universities when it comes to classroom discussions and faculty hiring as it pertains to race/class relations in this country is absolutely ridiculous.  By diverting entirely from the classics to crap like Barbara Ehrenreich there has been a shift from the accumulated knowledge of the ages to whining.  Today's college students aren't reading the great American authors who have dealt with our nation's social issues, writing essays in response to them, and having productive classroom discussions.  I was extremely lucky to attend a high school where the teachers knew what the heck was going on, to pinpoint I'd really cite reading Uncle Tom's Cabin and Native Son as two of the more important books that have really stuck with me, which I still think about several times a week.  We also read several Toni Morrison novels, Things Fall Apart, Autobiography of Malcom X, The Heart of Darkness, The Palm-Wine Drunkard all as part of standard track English.  In history class my freshman year, we had to memorize all the countries and capital cities of Africa as one of our first assignments and spent a fair amount of time discussing the colonial history of Africa.  I distinctly remember having full class period discussions about Islamic Extremism around 1995, studying the history of the Middle East and having fantastic discussions about all this.  Meanwhile at public schools they were putting condoms on bananas.   

 

College was an amazing regression into butt-kissing, idiotic writing assignments, and the steel cage of political correctness.  Everyone was so afraid to speak their mind and meanwhile so many had never even been in a classroom environment where people debated matters.  I'd write more but I have to leave for...work. 

 

 

 

What do you suppose we do to address the problems within the Black community?

 

They need to take back control of at least one major media outlet to have any influence. If they could get back CNN (Turner lost control btw), have the best investigative journalism around, and cover what's REALLY happening in Iraq, that'd be a start. Someone also has to start explaining why we are really fighting this war on terror. Our funding of the Israel war machine has a lot to do with it...

 

Wrong...wrong...wrong