Interesting comments by the Detroiters, jamiec. While I do occasionally come across a suburbanite who is scared to go downtown, it's pretty rare.

you must not come across a lot of suberbinites...oh the foolishness I hear out in the far burbs.

I think we all underestimate the fear people have of downtowns or "the city". 

 

I ran across this thread about someone wanting to go to Canal Street Tavern in Dayton, over at the political board ":Democratic Underground", asking for advice:

 

Being Cautious in Dayton

 

...its interesting to observe the undercurrent of fear or wariness the posters at that thread have.  And this is supposed to be a left-liberal site.

 

I was shocked to find this with my parents, too, talking about downtown Louisville.  They had went to a sister citys event in some skyscraper downtown and said they didnt feel comfortable or safe walking back to the car.  This was a pretty suprsing statement coming from them.

 

"I think we all underestimate the fear people have of downtowns or "the city".

 

A natural antsyness that comes from the fear of a different environment is fine. If a woman is fearful of walking through a bleak streetscape, I understand and I'm sympathetic. If people are a little disoriented trying to figure out how to use transit - I can understand. But - I draw the line at coddling peoples' irrational fears. Back when I had a car, I was driving friends through downtown Cleveland around Public Square - one was visibly uncomfortable and said "Are all these people in gangs?!?!? Why are they just out on the street?!?". I made a point of ridiculing her ignorance while I explained that those "gang members" were ordinary people waiting for their bus.

 

My parents will be visiting this weekend and my mom (god love her, but she can be high-strung - wonder where I get it?), was freaking out about traffic, what about taxis, etc. I reminded her that she spent a significant time of her life in Old Town South Chicago. She realized that she didn't have much to worry about :)

you must not come across a lot of suberbinites...oh the foolishness I hear out in the far burbs.

 

I do hear foolishness, too, but not from the age range of people I'm usually around. A lot of my coworkers are younger than I -- 20s and maybe into their 30s. Those who convey ignorance generally tend to be older than I, and therefore should know better. But we're all creatures of our past, and for them the Cleveland they grew up with in the 60s, 70s and even into the 80s was one where decline and danger were the dominant themes. It's hard for them to accept any new views when the past is so deeply ingrained in them.

 

or wait maybe detroit does have clev beat in this dept as that detroitfreepress map was depressing -- casinos as growth!?!?

 

My Cleveland developments/planned projects map is even more impressive. I don't have the sites identified, but I'm sure many of you can figure out what most of these are

 

sure, lots 'o good stuff going on or planned for downtown cleveland -- i was being sarcastic that on the link they were counting casinos as "development." can you believe that? sad.

 

you must not come across a lot of suberbinites...oh the foolishness I hear out in the far burbs.

 

I do hear foolishness, too, but not from the age range of people I'm usually around. A lot of my coworkers are younger than I -- 20s and maybe into their 30s. Those who convey ignorance generally tend to be older than I, and therefore should know better. But we're all creatures of our past, and for them the Cleveland they grew up with in the 60s, 70s and even into the 80s was one where decline and danger were the dominant themes. It's hard for them to accept any new views when the past is so deeply ingrained in them.

This is what bothers me.  I get from people all the time, why do you live IN Cleveland...you could afford to have a nice HOUSE in Shaker or Cleveland Hts.  I do not want to cut grass or do maintence work...that's too much work!  I hear comments made by people, which are generally WRONG, and the sad part of that is these people are the children or grand children of people who were born and raised in Cleveland proper and still have relatives who live in the city.

 

However, I was one of the people.  In my Senior year in high school, I went for a visit at  Ohio State (with some kids from Cleveland Hts., Beachwood and Cleveland), and our sponsors/guides, asked what part of Cleveland we were from and I responded, I live in Shaker Hts. and I remember thinking, "how dare he think I'm from Cleveland...are the clothes I'm wearing and the way I speak indicative of a person living in Cleveland?"  My cousin was actually offended. IIRC, the suburban kids all had a puzzled look on their faces.  Looking back, I see how STUPID and OFFENSIVE we all were, especially to our friends who, went to Shaker but live in Cleveland.

 

However, once I got out of my parents home and started to "live" and interact with people from various backgrounds, religions, races, etc.  I realized there was more to the world than the Hillcrest communities. 

 

I remember when I first started working at SOHIO and thinking that people who lived on the Westside were just low class poor folks with big hair and bad perms; Why are people moving to Ohio City?;  Why would anyone live downtown? It's only good to come into the city to party. 

 

However, I worked in Corporate Relations and actually had to learn about Cleveland and lived here my entire life - I was SOOOO ignorant about my own city.  People are affraid of the unknown and use the "im a product of my enviornment" excuse to make themselves feel better - and its bullshit!  I think from personal experience, people insulate themselves or chose not to see things or color things in a positive way regardless of what is really going on.

 

Some people need to put Cleveland down, in order to make themselves feel better about the suburb (no offense to anyone) where they live.  I think people feel like if they leave Cleveland proper and move to a 'burb then we have "arrived" and they they try so hard to assimilate, they then put down where they came from.  Then their children, are born into an environment of misinformation and perpetuate wrong stereotypes.  It makes no sense...but it happens.

 

My intent was not to spark a Detroit vs. Cleveland discussion all though interesting. My point is simply, Cleveland has undergone regeneration many years ago and it continues to date. Detroit has only recently begun its renaissance.

 

It funny that you mention that.  I have quite a few friends who have relocated to Cleveland from Detroit/Toledo because Detroit is so bad.  They're opinion is that Cleveland is light years ahead of Detroit in terms of "reinventing" itself and there is a general feeling that the city has opportunities - something that isn't found in Detroit.  Again, people's outside of our city (metro area) have much better "perceptions" of Cleveland than natives.  As I mentioned earlier I had a friend, originally from Indi, come for a weekend visit and moved to Cleveland a few weeks later and loves it.  He bought a condo at the new Stonebridge.

It funny that you mention that.  I have quite a few friends who have relocated to Cleveland from Detroit/Toledo because Detroit is so bad.  They're opinion is that Cleveland is light years ahead of Detroit in terms of "reinventing" itself and there is a general feeling that the city has opportunities - something that isn't found in Detroit. Again, people's outside of our city (metro area) have much better "perceptions" of Cleveland than natives.  As I mentioned earlier I had a friend, originally from Indi, come for a weekend visit and moved to Cleveland a few weeks later and loves it.  He bought a condo at the new Stonebridge.

 

And I'm an detroit expatriate who 99% of the time, rather be living in detriot. Point is, lets stop the "my sister/friend/roommate/friend of friend" thinks analogies.

 

In regards to Casino's as development, we're still gladly taking ohio's money every day, thanks.

Toledo isn't Ohio.  Tsk tsk.

 

And fyi, Indiana is taking MY Ohio's money!

And I'm an detroit expatriate who 99% of the time, rather be living in detriot. Point is, lets stop the "my sister/friend/roommate/friend of friend" thinks analogies.

 

Well, my sister's friend's roommate's friend of a friend said that Detroit is like Lorain, sans Puerto Ricans.  TRUE STORY?!?!?!?

^ no way, Lorain is gaining population lol

snap

It funny that you mention that.  I have quite a few friends who have relocated to Cleveland from Detroit/Toledo because Detroit is so bad.  They're opinion is that Cleveland is light years ahead of Detroit in terms of "reinventing" itself and there is a general feeling that the city has opportunities - something that isn't found in Detroit. Again, people's outside of our city (metro area) have much better "perceptions" of Cleveland than natives.  As I mentioned earlier I had a friend, originally from Indi, come for a weekend visit and moved to Cleveland a few weeks later and loves it.  He bought a condo at the new Stonebridge.

 

 

And I'm an detroit expatriate who 99% of the time, rather be living in detriot. Point is, lets stop the "my sister/friend/roommate/friend of friend" thinks analogies.

 

In regards to Casino's as development, we're still gladly taking ohio's money every day, thanks.

 

Why??  This is how they felt, i'm only telling what they have actually said to me.  I've personally never stated or implied that what other residents of Detroit think/feel, only what those 8 people have said to me.

Hey, I NEVER said the Metro Detroiters I talked to wanted to move to Cleveland. They LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE (I have never seen such statehood adulation) LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE Michigan. They just weren't so stoked about the actual city of Detroit.

^True, it's easy to spot a Michigander because they are usually wearing a hat/sweatshirt/t-shirt etc that says 'Michigan'.  They are a proud bunch.

 

And I'm an detroit expatriate who 99% of the time, rather be living in detriot.

 

Seriously, if 99% of the time I wished I lived somewhere else, I would move there no matter what.  Why don't you go back?  Life is too short to wish you lived somewhere else 99% of the time. 

^True, it's easy to spot a Michigander because they are usually wearing a hat/sweatshirt/t-shirt etc that says 'Michigan'.  They are a proud bunch.

 

Well, they have friend chicken in a faux-German Village between Saginaw and Flint.  That's something to be proud of...

^you do know that mr. zhender died right?

 

okay, back on subject........

I saw some people a couple years ago in Oxford uptown during a horrific snowstorm. Most cars were having trouble getting around on the roads. These people pulled out of a parking space on High Street in a huge SUV with ease, hanging out the window shouting to my friends and me, "We're from Michigan!"

I finally watched the documentary last night. Sobering. In a way I hate that they picked us to be the emblem of sprawl-based decay, but perhaps it will force leaders in the region to sit up and take better notice (if they're actually watching).

 

There are certainly brighter beacons of urban hope here than Fairfax and Hough; I wish they had focused a bit more on Tremont, and also included a neighborhood like Ohio City or Detroit-Shoreway.

 

I thought the post-show discussion was poorly handled. At one point, that moronic "Ideas" host mentions that places like Pittsburgh and Detroit have a head-start on us in terms of downtown revival. Detroit? Ahem. And then they interview someone from St. Louis as a model for best practices in downtown revival. Now, I haven't been to St. Louis in a while, but from what I've heard they have some great neighborhoods but their downtown is still pretty dead (much like us). Philadelphia, Pittsburgh or even Milwaukee, I could see.

detroit's model to downtown reinvestment?

 

Same as cleveland's 10 years ago, public tax dollars (i.e. stadia)

^at least Detroit got its football stadium location right.

^Now they need to work on that whole "basketball 20 miles away" thing.

^Now they need to work on that whole "basketball 20 miles away" thing.

 

How about in Windsor!?

Hell, it's better than Detroit.

 

Why not?  Ouellette Avenue is ripe for aesthetic improvement and the Pistons will be the "it" thing!

Wind-Sor bas-ket-ball

They would put the "Win" in Windsor.

^well, then maybe the Lions should be looking across the river.

they could transfer to the CFL......

That'd up Canada's minority population by nearly 72%.

There was a little article in this months issue of Land Lines from the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy

 

http://www.lincolninst.edu/pubs/pub-detail.asp?id=1162

 

 

 

Land Lines: October 2006, Volume 18, Number 4

 

Making Sense of Place Film Series :

Cleveland: Confronting Decline in an American City

Publication Date: October, 2006; English  

 

The second film in the Making Sense of Place film series – Cleveland: Confronting Decline in an American City – has been completed and was set to have its inaugural airing in late September on WVIZ-TV, the public television station in Cleveland. Like the first documentary, Phoenix: The Urban Desert, this film was produced in collaboration with the Lincoln Institute by Northern Light Productions, the Boston-based film and video production company founded by filmmaker Bestor Cram.

 

Cleveland: Confronting Decline in an American City examines the ongoing crisis of urban decay and the erosion of inner suburbs in what was once America’s fifth largest city. The film, in digital video, includes both original photography shot on location during 2004 and 2005, and historical and archival footage of Cleveland’s vibrant economic past and early days as a manufacturing powerhouse. The producers conducted in-depth interviews with dozens of residents, leading civic figures, commentators, planners, policy makers, developers, business executives, and many others who live and work in the region – all confronting suburban growth and accompanying decline in the urban core, as well as signs of hope and neighborhood revitalization.

 

“We selected Cleveland to some extent as a counterpoint to Phoenix,” says Cram. “They are about the same size, but have had diametrically opposed experiences – in Phoenix outrageous growth, and in Cleveland persistent decline. We looked at demographic change, economic change, and policy change, which all play a part, but our real interest is change from the standpoint of where people are choosing to live, and the manner in which a city is transformed by those choices.”

 

Read More...

 

 

Nothing new. More of an ad for the movie then anything else

This is news, I was under the impression that Cleveland was fresh and rejuvenated.  I constantly hear about all these new fabulous development going up all over the city.  I guess I need to come home more often. :|

ya know honestly, i feel like a story like this is something thats a few years too late, we dont really need a doom and gloom to scare us to action like in 2001 or 2002.  I think of what needs to happen is starting to happen. 

^ I agree, Zaceman. That being said, I hope the documentary will spark more of an anti-sprawl dialogue in our community. A lot of us in the city and near suburbs already talk about it, but I think it is a less visible issue for those living in exurbia and is handled as a pretty low priority by the political leaders in our region. The regionalism dialogue seems to be centered around lowering government costs, reducing pirating of businesses from municipality to municipality, revenue sharing, etc., etc. But we haven't yet taken a comprehensive approach at stopping sprawl itself.

I read the transcript and did not see the film. I feel the film is pretty accurate in depicting the sprawl situation and decline of the city, but it didn't really talk a lot about a lot of the renewal going on; like downtown, University Circle, Ohio City and Tremont. It certainly was a little gloom and doom.

what's with the potshots on detroit today?

I noticed that, too, Pope. No Motown love lately.

I noticed that, too, Pope. No Motown love lately.

 

With a website that promotes the wonderfulness of the entire state of ohio, its funny how quickly many members on here will insult every other city under the sun. Oh well, back to my glass house.

^ I agree, Zaceman. That being said, I hope the documentary will spark more of an anti-sprawl dialogue in our community. A lot of us in the city and near suburbs already talk about it, but I think it is a less visible issue for those living in exurbia and is handled as a pretty low priority by the political leaders in our region. The regionalism dialogue seems to be centered around lowering government costs, reducing pirating of businesses from municipality to municipality, revenue sharing, etc., etc. But we haven't yet taken a comprehensive approach at stopping sprawl itself.

 

When you get to the outer counties (Lorain, Medina, Geauga), and talk about sprawl, they have no idea what you're talking about. When you explain that the metro area is not growing, they look at you like you've just said the sky is green. "Why are they building all these new homes?" That's sprawl, I tell them. Every new home, new store, new business that you see being built is almost always causing a vacancy somewhere else. And, more often than not, the vacancy is happening in an older part of the city. "Cleveland?" they ask. Not just Cleveland anymore, but Lakewood, Brook Park, Fairview Park, Parma, Garfield Heights, Maple Heights, Bedford, Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights, East Cleveland, University Heights, Euclid.....

 

"I used to live in Cleveland Heights but then I moved out here to enjoy some peace and quiet, but the traffic is worse here than it was in Cleveland Heights," they said.

 

Bingo, I replied. That's cuz you have to use the car to get to the bathroom.

New showing posted:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=11292

They'll be discussing this on Monday morning's Sound of Ideas on 90.3 (WCPN), if anyone's interested!

^ time?

sorry...9 a.m.

It was a packed house at the Natural History Museum, complete with free appetizers and booze to loosen up the crowd of nearly 500.  After screening the documentary the panel consisting of Chris Ronyane, Tom Bier, a rep from the Lincoln institute and a couple neighborhood representatives whos names escape me, responded to well articulated questions from the crowd.

Nearly all the questions were positive in nature and looked to pushed this city forward, but some of the answers were some of the same old reactions from Tom Bier.  Chris Ronyane was his typical energetic self.

A couple good questions were:

 

*Why does ODOT continue to aid suburban sprawl with adding freeway entrances in the greenfields of the exurbs?

*Has the city of Cleveland thought about some sort of urban farming to employ and feed city residents?

*What kind of development should happen within the city?  We don't need more check cashing stores in the low income neighborhoods.

*Short comings in the city zoning processes (one woman actually had to cancel opening her store near Deaconess Krafft because of bureaucratic BS).

 

Overall a positive experience, I just hope the dialogue continues and filters into real results.

 

Anyone else check it out?

I was there...very impressed with the crowd and the spread!

 

The two community members were Vicki Johnson, Director of Fairfax Renaissance Development Corporation and a resident of Hough, and Hilary Taylor, a Hough resident and lawyer in Downtown Cleveland.

 

I couldn't stay much past 8:30, so I get the feeling that I missed a lot of the conversation afterwards, but I enjoyed the movie and what conversation I did hear...very poignant.

 

If you enjoyed this event, you should check out the Levin College Forum...it's like this every couple weeks, albeit with a few less people...

Brooklyn Sun:

 

Film examines city Documentary shows the issues facing Cleveland

Thursday, June 21, 2007

By Ken Prendergast

Brooklyn Sun Journal

 

CLEVELAND In order to get a big-picture understanding of the problems facing the city, Ward 15 Councilman Brian Cummins is encouraging residents to attend a screening of a documentary "Cleveland: Confronting Decline in an American City."

 

The film will be shown from 6-8:30 p.m. Wednesday at the Cleveland Metroparks Zoo Auditorium, 3900 Wildlife Way. Call (216) 459-8400 for more information.

 

The one-hour documentary film, produced by the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy, is the second in their "Making Sense of Place" series. The film examines how policymakers, community groups and others have wrestled with urban decay, the erosion of inner suburbs and the growth of outer suburbs in what was once America's fifth-largest city - and what future solutions might be.

 

After the film, a panel of local officials and experts along with a facilitator will help lead a discussion of urban issues with viewers.

 

"It (the film) shows what we're facing," Cummins said. "It's looking at the bigger picture on what our problems are."

 

He said the first film in the Lincoln Institute's series was about Phoenix's problems. While Cleveland is facing challenges of a shrinking population, Phoenix's is the exact opposite. That city is rapidly growing, and has become the nation's sixth-largest city.

 

"Both (films) are about land-use policies," Cummins said. "They (in Phoenix) had a couple hundred local screenings of that film. This film (on Cleveland) has had maybe 10."

 

He noted that complaints about cutbacks in services, crime and other ills Cleveland is facing are more complex than just a shrinking population. The reasons for that declining population will be explored so the problems can be addressed more effectively, he said.

 

For more information on the Lincoln Institute of Land Policy and its "Making Sense of Place" series, visit www.makingsenseofplace.org on the Internet. Or contact the Ward 15 Council office for details at (216) 459-8400, and [email protected] by e-mail.

PBS has been re-running this doc in the Cincinnati area for the past few days. Interesting stuff.

Here in South Florida as well, I got to see it about a month ago for the first time.

I wish I could see this documentary.

 

I think stuff like this film is important because Cleveland has real problems .. problems that need to be dealt with, and they can't be swept under the rug. Exposing them on a wider scale, as unflattering and humiliating it can be, allows a city to get serious about the need for change, I think.

 

No one likes to see Cleveland's ugliness and imperfections. But it's definitely time to dust ourselves off and do something about them.