^Why is it just a cluster of spots for suburbanites to check out?

I think it's great there's an burgeoning area besides WHD for restaurants and entertainment. Gives us east-side downtowners something to do :wink:  It doesn't strike me as a particularly suburbanite crowd when I'm over there?

I believe they (MRN) said they are waiting on demand to build, seems logical.

"as much as i want to root for downtown, this place is more of a cluster of restaurants for suburbanites to try out"

 

Yeah, only suburbanites dine at Lola or enjoy a beer, or enjoy a comedy show or go bowling :roll: Exactly what do you think they need in that area?   

^and the the street is packed at lunch on any work day, its clearly 100% suburbanites.

as much as i want to root for downtown, this place is more of a cluster of restaurants for suburbanites to try out

 

do they card at the door? where can i get my fake suburbanite ID?

as much as i want to root for downtown, this place is more of a cluster of restaurants for suburbanites to try out

 

do they card at the door? where can i get my fake suburbanite ID?

 

I know a guy who is a friend of a guy from my fraternity, top notch New Hampshire IDs...

^Good. But I just don't think its right that only suburbanites can go to Lola.

^Good. But I just don't think its right that only suburbanites can go to Lola.

 

I'm sorry, You'll have to keep hanging out in the rough and tumble joints of Ohio City, that excludes the West Side market, because only Joe and Susy Suburbanite can go there on weekends.

I'm sorry, You'll have to keep hanging out in the rough and tumble joints of Ohio City, that excludes the West Side market, because only Joe and Susy Suburbanite can go there on weekends.

 

yeah, but its open to the public on the weekdays!

I'm sure I could come up with a witty response, but enough of our babbling.......

 

 

 

Back on subject (myself included)

I'm sure I could come up with a witty response, but enough of our babbling.......

 

 

 

Back on subject (myself included)

 

What.... No "back on subject/topic" picture?  Geez.........

well two of the huge draws such as House of Blues and the Corner Alley are very much curiousities for people in the suburbs, and thats not to say that no one else from the city goes to these.  However, ever since both of these started, the street has been considered a success story along with strands of lights, sculptures etc.  Which is great, im not complaining, buuuuuutt for the amount of stuff going up over there, theres a lack of residential going up in the surrounding area.  Which also leads to only new restaurants and not new shops/stores.(unless im wrong and something is brewing??)  To me when i see four more restaurants and or clubs go up in that area it just looks like imports from the warehouse district.  perhaps it takes way more time for this and im being overly critical, but i dont see it as a success story, the whole thing seems more like an experiment in another part of town at this point. 

^I get your point zaceman.  Basically, new restaurants opening up there are not in response to a massive increase in the critical mass of people, rather in response to a massive increase in awareness that the street actually exists from the suburban population.  There are not any diners or cheap menu restaurants or quick meals that a typical neighborhood person would cater to, rather there are destination and theme oriented restaurants that are worth driving to for a night out on the town. 

unless im wrong and something is brewing??

 

With all due respect, you're being overly critical. As with any other city of Cleveland's size, the redevelopment of an area like East 4th Street takes time. It's at the stage that the Warehouse District was in a few years ago - right now, it's approaching "build out" of rehabbed older buildings. Once there's nothing left to rehab, there won't be any choice but to build new (i.e. 515 Euclid). That said, the entire block above Corner Alley - from East 4th to the Residence Inn is undergoing rehab into residential units. Most of the buildings on East 4th have residential above the first floor. http://www.east4thstreet.com/properties.php Keep in mind that I remember 10 years ago when absolutely none of this existed and most people would have laughed at the notion. Here's a map to show you some of the properties:

 

 

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&ll=41.499201,-81.690474&spn=0.002961,0.005767&t=h&z=18&om=1&msid=111501388969053870983.000001134963cfde89e2c

 

gotribe - I guess places like Flannery's, Harry Buffalo, and the Winking Lizard (and a few others) are haute cuisine destination spots? I'm sure you've been reading that over the next several months there will be plenty more of the "everyday" kind of places but there's more to East 4th than Lola, Pickwick and HOB. I don't understand the misinformation that's being given out. ???

It seems like they are developing a nice little neighborhood of residents on E 4th.  Obviously this is only part of the equation, as the suburbanites are necessary as well, but I think it attracts a great mix of people from residents to downtown workers to people going out before or after a game around the corner to suburbanites as well clevelanders looking for a nice place to go out.  The area is definitely not a transplant of the WHD.  WHD is basically restaurants and bars, while E 4th has more entertainment mixed in.  I think the only way it doesn't continue to succeed is if downtown loses a bunch of employers, and if the the increasing number of people wanting to live downtown reverses for some reason.

Good post May Day.

 

Now for my rant (which is basically a repeat of a rant on another thread about 2 months ago).  I generally think the PD is a decent paper so I don't attack it with recklessly.  But again, why do their writers needlessly attack Cleveland as poor, shrinking, failing, rusting, dead and struggling when the writer needs a hook to start an article.  "In Cleveland, the poorest city in the nation, one of the best places to buy new spring fashions is...."  The above was a generally positive article about the city but it had to start with negative quotes.  This is just too easy (by the way Steve Litt is a master of this device).  Can't the writers be a little more creative.

 

To a certain extent the language and style Lubinger used is the above article is justified since he was talking about downtown development rather than spring fashions, but still it really starts to get old and wears on me.  Also, the accompanying article about the Avenue District, Flats East Bank, E 4th and Pesht seems to contradict the hook of the article.  In what "dying city" are private developers investing over a billion dollars in new construction.

The scary thing about the PD's nature is how it rubs off on the locals.  Read the article on Cleveland.com about the .25% sales tax increase and see the jack asses that responded to the article.  Yeah, Cleveland, the "sh*thole" that is already is :roll:, is going to die an even quicker death because your $100.00 purchase that previously cost $107.50 with tax will now cost you $107.75.  If these people are that f'in cheap, good ridance and stay in Florida!!! :shoot: :shoot:

 

 

BTW, I didn't call Cleveland a sh*thole, I was just mimicking some of the naysayers out there.

...But make sure you drive your SUV 50 miles r/t each day with gas prices +$3.00...Damn that extra .$25!!! :roll:

...But make sure you drive your SUV 50 miles r/t each day with gas prices +$3.00...Damn that extra .$25!!! :roll:

 

god forbid the government ever adjust the gas tax for the inflation over the last 20 years.

???

http://blog.cleveland.com/top_entertainment/2007/06/by_bill_lubinger_plain_dealer.html

 

New restaurants, bar set for East 4th

June 28, 2007

By Bill Lubinger

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

With its mix of restaurants, entertainment and housing, East 4th Street in downtown Cleveland was already among the more happening blocks in the city. More is on the way.

 

MRN Ltd., a real estate developer that owns and has converted much of the tight strip of historic buildings between Euclid and Prospect avenues one block north of the Q, revealed Thursday that three more attractions are coming...

Damn you Punch!  LOL  :whip:

 

I like all this but can they get a Dr. office, flower shop, CVS, sneaker store, furniture store.  I wonder if he is sending interested parties that "don't fit" on East 4th to other downtown developers?

 

beat you by a 40 seconds there :)

Wonder what those other "deals" are.

Finally, a Vietnamese restaurant downtown!!! :clap:

Getting close to capacity.....maybe then there'd be a chance for some buildout & even greater selectivity for neighborhood services...

So, is the Wonder Bar still on tap or is now the BlackFinn?

BlackFinn is slated to be at the corner of East 4th and Euclid; Wonderbar is mid-block on East 4th.

^Thanks MD.

East 4th is really kind of amazing. 

I bartend in Chicago and I always talk to people who are coming into Cleveland for a day or two and they want to go somewhere fun, that is easy to get to.  From now on it is going to be I'll be recomending E. 4th.  Not only is there a lot of things to do, but the quality and variety of the establisments is really something I would be proud to send people to.

 

I am very impressed.

Those parking lots at Prospect and E4th sure would look good with some 5-15 story residential and office spaces on them.

Wonder Bar has to be close to opening up, the interior is really coming along from the looks of it.

^ same thing for Zocalo, although Wonder Bar is definitely farther along.

 

I don't think I'm gonna get over that name though, for a long time - too many memories of going to the bread store with my mother as a kid....

Can all of these places survive down there?  I like the new openings, but my gosh, this is kind of overwhelming.  Will something bust somewhere?

Can all of these places survive down there?  I like the new openings, but my gosh, this is kind of overwhelming.  Will something bust somewhere?

 

 

No......not "doubt" already!  let just have one day to marinate in the good news!

I just wish they didn't have to have railings around the outdoor setaing on E4th, just seems so confined and rigid.  The restaurant seating in European piazzas with the seating spilling into the public space is so much more inviting.

^I agree and I could be wrong, but that may be a State liquor issue (alcohol not permitted beyond certain point crap).

^^And wouldn't that just encourage a lot of dine-and-dashing?

It may be a fire issue as well, keeping a clear path for a quick exit.  I know Chicago takes that into account.

"I agree and I could be wrong, but that may be a State liquor issue (alcohol not permitted beyond certain point crap). "

 

Yep, sure is.  An outdoor deck isn't supposed to have its own entrance and exit if alcohol is served there.

 

"And wouldn't that just encourage a lot of dine-and-dashing?"

 

Good call.  It would become a serious problem very quickly.

""And wouldn't that just encourage a lot of dine-and-dashing?"

 

If someone is going to pull that sh!t, they're going to do it no matter what. It's one thing to accomodate safety vehicles and provide a nominal amount of security against things like "dine and dash" but at some point you're designing to the lowest common denominator when it should be the other way around. That mentality is the same reason that the ugly fences are up along the Detroit-Superior Bridge promenade - "oh no, people will jump!", "oh no, people will throw things!" - if that's how we're going to plan and build our city, we shouldn't even bother.

Saigon, loves it. But they best not pull out of Asiatown ... lest I be down on E. 4th with my protest sandwich board.

""And wouldn't that just encourage a lot of dine-and-dashing?"

 

If someone is going to pull that sh!t, they're going to do it no matter what. It's one thing to accomodate safety vehicles and provide a nominal amount of security against things like "dine and dash" but at some point you're designing to the lowest common denominator when it should be the other way around. That mentality is the same reason that the ugly fences are up along the Detroit-Superior Bridge promenade - "oh no, people will jump!", "oh no, people will throw things!" - if that's how we're going to plan and build our city, we shouldn't even bother.

 

Sometimes when you make behavior more difficult, you discourage it, or at least get rid of the impulsive stuff.  Which applies to throwing stuff off the bridge in particular.

Saigon, loves it. But they best not pull out of Asiatown ... lest I be down on E. 4th with my protest sandwich board.

 

LOL!  only an Aries would say that!  LOL

This is really exciting news!  I'd heard rumors about The Blackfinn, but the other two are a total surprise.

 

Damn you Punch!  LOL  :whip:

 

I like all this but can they get a Dr. office, flower shop, CVS, sneaker store, furniture store.  I wonder if he is sending interested parties that "don't fit" on East 4th to other downtown developers?

 

 

I'd like to see some more neighborhood oriented retail on East 4th, but it isn't in the cards.  MRN's plans are for a destination entertainment district.  As for the things you've mentioned, there is a CVS about a five minute walk from here, a number of sneaker stores in TC, and one on Prospect even closer.  I don't know about Dr. offices, but it would be nice to find one nearby, and a dentist as well.  I don't care about flower shops.  I don't know where a furniture store would fit in the remaining spaces, but it would be nice to see something like a dept store/discount dept store brought to the area, either in the old dept stores or built new on the parking lot on the SE corner of Prospect/4th.

"I agree and I could be wrong, but that may be a State liquor issue (alcohol not permitted beyond certain point crap). "

 

Yep, sure is.  An outdoor deck isn't supposed to have its own entrance and exit if alcohol is served there.

 

A patio can have it's own entrance and exit, as all the patios on East 4th do, but it has to be enclosed.  Drinks cannot be taken outside of the fenced in area.  Yeah, it's not as pretty as unfenced patios.

 

 

Can all of these places survive down there?  I like the new openings, but my gosh, this is kind of overwhelming.  Will something bust somewhere?

 

I'm certain something will eventually.  It's a fickly business, and even a successful destination area will lose some spots as trends and competition change.  That said, the businesses opening on East 4th have all been solid and very well financed, not shoestring operations, so I think it is going to be more stable than other entertainment districts have been.

I'd like to see some more neighborhood oriented retail on East 4th, but it isn't in the cards.  MRN's plans are for a destination entertainment district.  As for the things you've mentioned, there is a CVS about a five minute walk from here, a number of sneaker stores in TC, and one on Prospect even closer.  I don't know about Dr. offices, but it would be nice to find one nearby, and a dentist as well.  I don't care about flower shops.  I don't know where a furniture store would fit in the remaining spaces, but it would be nice to see something like a dept store/discount dept store brought to the area, either in the old dept stores or built new on the parking lot on the SE corner of Prospect/4th.

 

I should have been clearer, I hope this helps with bringing those things to Euclid and Prospect, better connecting E 4th with Tower city.  A West Elm, Pier1 , block buster video, would fit in nicely on Euclid or Prospect. How about a nail salon, a ballon shop, bakery, Ice Cream store (cold stone), personal grooming stores(aveda, the art of shaving or a spa), household retail (pottery barn & Bed Bath or beyond), an ATM banking center (with various banks ATMs inside), a small bodega, a hardware store, a florist, eye glass store, watch repair, you know everyday type stores.

 

With more people moving downtown, they want there general practioner, eye doctor, dentist to be closer.  its a "win-win" situation for everyone.  Of topic, but hopfully the above is what the avenue district will come with.

"I don't know about Dr. offices, but it would be nice to find one nearby, and a dentist as well."

 

Superior Dentistry in the Leader Building. :-)

<url>http://blackfinndallas.com/gallery/images/06.08.07/Index.php</url>

 

Man, according to their Web site, it's babe-city...

 

 

edit: There are dentists all over downtown. Now, I'm not sure about regular doctors and specialists like dermatologists, etc.

<url>http://blackfinndallas.com/gallery/images/06.08.07/Index.php</url>

 

Man, according to their Web site, it's babe-city...

 

 

 

 

^Is that Dallas, or Parma?

A little more publicity, this time from Crain's:

 

More venues slated for East Fourth

 

By STAN BULLARD

 

2:31 pm, June 28, 2007

 

MRN Ltd. said three new venues are bound for the East Fourth Street neighborhood in downtown Cleveland as part of its $110 million in development in the center city.

 

The planned additions are BlackFinn, a 150-seat Irish-American saloon; a 96-seat Vietnamese restaurant called Saigon Vietnamese; and Hush/Hush Up bar, with an undisclosed number of seats that will be on two floors in the Corts Building on East Fourth.

 

BlackFinn will be in the Windsor Block building on the southwest corner of East Fourth and Euclid Avenue. Saigon Vietnamese will be in the Frederick Building mid-block on East Fourth between Euclid and Prospect Avenue. Hush/Hush Up will be in the Corts Building, mid-block on East Fourth.

 

Ari Maron, a partner in MRN, said the new venues would bring both national and local operators to the street.

 

BlackFinn would be the 10th location for the New York-based chain of that name. Danny Nguyen and Ken Ho, who own #1 Pho on Superior Avenue, plan to open Saigon Vietnamese to add a second downtown location. The Lola Group of Cleveland, led by chef Michael Symon and the operator of Lola restaurant on East Fourth, plans to develop Hush/Hush Up, a cocktail bar.

 

The new restaurants and nightspot are slated to open next summer. MRN estimated the three venues would employ more than 100.

 

********************

 

All those employees are going to have to live somewhere!  And where better than Downtown when you've got to stay at work late?