April 14, 200916 yr (you can drink at the other restaurant's patios right?) I think so. I hope so, because I've done so. Wonderbar never had a problem with it and I've seen people drinking at the tables outside Corner Alley.
April 22, 200916 yr What was the atmosphere like last night? Should have been great with two games and nice weather.
April 22, 200916 yr weather wasn't very nice, and I think there were more people out sunbathing than going to the indians game.
April 22, 200916 yr What was the atmosphere like last night? Should have been great with two games and nice weather. April is a weird month because the foliage is not out yet on the street. The patios were too cold to sit out and there were big puddles on the street. That being said pretty much every restaurant i saw was packed except Saigon. I really like this restaurant row, i hope they keep jamming more stuff on/around this street.
April 22, 200916 yr With 668 closing the gap from the east, i would think the next logical step in the development of the area would be the buildings on the south side of prospect, including the gold fish store, and family sportswear store buildings. If we can get those to become mixed use, we'll really be getting somewhere. Of course for that too happen we probably need the may co. building to fall in line (say as a botique hotel, with the tric c culinary school / restaurant, and a cool hotel lounge below), and of course for the owner of those buildings to be either willing to sell or develop the properties. And from what I've heard he's one of those people that think his property is worth WAY more than anyone is willing to pay. But hey, who says we can't dream :)
April 22, 200916 yr Oh I thoroughly believe it will happen... it's just going to take exactly that. Time. And once that secition is complete... and let's say the outlet retail plan takes off at the two arcades... now the parking lot (owned by the city so they will be much more interested in selling than your typical lot owner) on the SE corner of Prospect and 4th becomes EXTREMELY attractive to a developer... but that of course is a ways down the road
April 22, 200916 yr you and your d#mn sensible logic -- i love it! if only energetic developers like the maron's & nick kostis controlled some of that property, much would be in the works. sounds like those owners need to wake up & smell the new coffeeshop one of these days.
April 22, 200916 yr It would be amazing if all along prospect from east 9th to ontario was similar to what east 4th is now.
April 22, 200916 yr Oh I thoroughly believe it will happen... it's just going to take exactly that. Time. And once that secition is complete... and let's say the outlet retail plan takes off at the two arcades... now the parking lot (owned by the city so they will be much more interested in selling than your typical lot owner) on the SE corner of Prospect and 4th becomes EXTREMELY attractive to a developer... but that of course is a ways down the road You sound like someone...Now how could it be...three somebody ;) :P ;) The difference is I understand it will take time, and persistance, and that there isn't a magic wand I can wave and have it all done in the next 3 weeks. But that it is possible... even probable in the overall scheme of things. :wink:
April 23, 200916 yr Gross mischaracterization. But I'll let it slide. I asked someone in the city's planning department about that lot at a City Club event a couple years ago. They very sheepishly said they had no idea what to do with it. Maybe there should be a contest or something. I'm not sure how that lot could be any more attractive. It has connectivity, as they say. Since the city owns it, land acquisition costs shouldn't be a problem for anyone. If someone is willing to build something serious on it, give it to them and let them pay it off nice & slow. Slower than a bank would ever allow. And that's not all the help the city/county/state/feds could offer. Let's get this show on the road.
April 23, 200916 yr ^That lot is worth quite a bit to the city because of the parking revenue, so I don't think they can quite give it away...not without laying off some cops, anyway. I also wonder if the E4th St. businesses would freak out if the surface parking started disappearing. Lord knows there's plenty of garages nearby, but who knows.
April 23, 200916 yr Gross mischaracterization. But I'll let it slide. I asked someone in the city's planning department about that lot at a City Club event a couple years ago. They very sheepishly said they had no idea what to do with it. Maybe there should be a contest or something. I'm not sure how that lot could be any more attractive. It has connectivity, as they say. Since the city owns it, land acquisition costs shouldn't be a problem for anyone. If someone is willing to build something serious on it, give it to them and let them pay it off nice & slow. Slower than a bank would ever allow. And that's not all the help the city/county/state/feds could offer. Let's get this show on the road. A development the size of that lot that is done properly and mixed use wouldn't be cheap... and if you haven't noticed the banks aren't exactly handing out money right now. it is significantly cheaper to rehab existing buildings, which is why you are seeing more of that currently. Trust, the city is not an obstacle in this property, they would love to see someone step forward and develop it. They were practically going to give it to gilbert for the practice courts (which I couldn't be happier didn't happen, that would have been a complete waste of some of the most prime property in downtown) When the existing buildings around this lot have been developed, I think you'll see developers falling over themselves to be the ones to get to develop this property. We just aren't there yet.
April 23, 200916 yr What I was getting at with the additional government help is that maybe we should stop begging at the banks' altar and finance this stuff ourselves. Wouldn't it be better to have whatever minimal profits come from that financing to go to Cleveland instead of NY or NC? Wouldn't it be nice to cut them out of our development process and keep it local? If they were going to give it to Gilbert for practice courts, they can give it to someone who agrees to build a bunch of one bedrooms with some height and density. And no I don't mean tomorrow or the next day. But if we're waiting on the financial sector to do it for us, we may be disappointed. I'm going to take this a little bit off-topic (sorry, moderators, but this might help in the long-run) just so we don't stray further... 327, despite the revenues that government entities receive, almost all of it is encumbered in current budget to pay salaries, existing projects, etc. Municipalities and other entities do not possess the large pools of capital that are available to lending institutions. Any monies available for investment are usually put into more secure mechanisms. What gov't can do is use the funds they do have to leverage private lending, which they do already. So, no: gov't can't (and shouldn't) finance projects themselves. For something as large as the redevelopment of that parking lot (about the size of the Key Tower block), you need a bank (or two, or three , or more). Shorter answer: take a public development finance course so you can understand this better.
April 23, 200916 yr ^Thank you avogardo, very good explanation. 327 I hope at some point this finally sinks in for you. until a PRIVATE developer is interested in doing this, there isn't much that can be done. In the mean time, please please please do not hijack this thread.
April 23, 200916 yr I think you folks know who you are: clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
April 23, 200916 yr Oh I thoroughly believe it will happen... it's just going to take exactly that. Time. And once that secition is complete... and let's say the outlet retail plan takes off at the two arcades... now the parking lot (owned by the city so they will be much more interested in selling than your typical lot owner) on the SE corner of Prospect and 4th becomes EXTREMELY attractive to a developer... but that of course is a ways down the road You sound like someone...Now how could it be...three somebody ;) :P ;) The difference is I understand it will take time, and persistance, and that there isn't a magic wand I can wave and have it all done in the next 3 weeks. But that it is possible... even probable in the overall scheme of things. :wink: Since these quotes weren't deleted, I'm assuming I can comment on them. Who doesn't think it will take time? I think the difference is that some of us do not want to be 60 before this city doesn't resemble the patchwork of developments it currently has. OK, so E.4th is great, but it's one freaking side street. Also, who doesn't understand it will take persistence? Where has "persistence" ever been questioned? By wanting more change, are we somehow implying we do not believe in "persistence?" Some of us want to see things happen sooner, and on account of that we get accused of wanting to "wave a magic wand." I disagree. Maybe the problem is that we just do not have enough leaders who think big. Who is to say the "easy does it" approach isn't what is stifling us? NOW THIS IS OFF TOPIC And for the love of god, please quit with the condescension. I do not see any of the law students or lawyers on here saying "hey jacka$$, take a law course so you can understand this better," when discussing anything related to law.
April 23, 200916 yr "Some of us want to see things happen sooner" I believe the saying is "You can want in one hand and sh!t in the other and see which fills up sooner." Avogadro simply said what many have been thinking and have been trying to explain - "here's how/why things are the way they are" with references to everything from municipal economic policies to the global economic recession to god only knows what else. Apparently, that's not good enough for certain people, nor are relentless reminders to stop hijacking threads with completely unrealistic hypothetical solutions. Asking someone to read up on something, or to curtail their uninformed posts is not condescension, it's asking for a little more thought before posting, and a little less dismissing of reality. clevelandskyscrapers.com Cleveland Skyscrapers on Instagram
April 23, 200916 yr "Some of us want to see things happen sooner" I believe the saying is "You can want in one hand and sh!t in the other and see which fills up sooner." To want provides the impetus to do. Oh well, maybe they should have told Obama to slow down on that mindless, senseless, unrealistic "change" drivel. What a dreamer!
April 23, 200916 yr I think the reason there is such an animosity towards waiting is that htat is what we have been told all along. We know everything takes time, but it is waiting for nothing to happen. Its borderline insane. We keep waiting hoping that the results change. Now that is more in regards to devolpment in cleveland as a whole. As far as E4th, trying to get things on topic ;). I think with as much as has happened here in recent years that the waiting approach is going to be beneficial. This area has come a long way and yes it can go further but I'm pretty sure it wasn't that long ago that there was no referances to doing anyhting on 4th.
April 23, 200916 yr are there any rumors or speculation as to what might be going in next to Theresas Pizza and Jimmy johns to close the gap from public square to east 4th??
May 5, 200916 yr 1. Work is continuing on the Greenhouse Tavern facade. You can now see the slim black floods that wash the signage in the night, and create a very cool shaddow effect. Which in my opinion really makes this sign standout on a street full of channel lit and neon signage. There is some tuck point work left to do on the brickwork... Also notice the two gray electrical boxes about halfway up the limestone facade on the outside columns... This is where there will be two laser cut stainless ornamental lites. The greenhouse tree will be cut into them... should create a really cool effect at night. 2. The main sign panel has been installed above the Erie Island Coffe Co. (by the way... i love this place, perfect fit in the neighborhood). Obviously it still needs to be cleaned up a bit. Also, the plywood area to the left is where their future blade sign will be going... I'll snag a picture here when they get it finished up.
May 5, 200916 yr Still waiting to hear the potential business across from Flannery's. nice picks by the way. Love that street.
May 5, 200916 yr OK, it's Cinco de Mayo and there are still ice cubes on E. 4th!!! Come on now! Especially with national/international exposure w/ the NBA playoffs, you'd think they'd be in a rush to replace the winter themed planters with the lush green rainforest we had last year! What's the timeline for this?
May 5, 200916 yr I was wondering the same thing as I walked down the street today... It's not cold anymore! Get the cubes out of my grill!
May 5, 200916 yr Great pic. Now all we need is a real dive bar to complement E.4th. Not a knock on it, I love E.4th. I'm just asking for something real bare bones.
May 5, 200916 yr Hey, lets do it! the building stock is gone... Great pic. Now all we need is a real dive bar to complement E.4th. Not a knock on it, I love E.4th. I'm just asking for something real bare bones. unfortunately... rathskeller and otto moshers left in the early mid / nineties, right before the movement really started to gain momentum to get the street back on track. Shame, they had been in their original locations since the late 1800's. They would have been such a great addition to the new things going in.
May 5, 200916 yr Hey, lets do it! the building stock is gone... Great pic. Now all we need is a real dive bar to complement E.4th. Not a knock on it, I love E.4th. I'm just asking for something real bare bones. unfortunately... rathskeller and otto moshers left in the early mid / nineties, right before the movement really started to gain momentum to get the street back on track. Shame, they had been in their original locations since the late 1800's. They would have been such a great addition to the new things going in. So does that mean there were 2 otto moshers downtown, or is the one in Playhouse Square where the old one moved too??
May 5, 200916 yr Otto Moser's opened I believe in 1893 on E. 4th when it was the city's first theatre district. It remained there until 1994 when it moved to the new theatre district at it's current location. It was about that time the rathskeller moved from it's former location (also of about 100 years) where lola currently is... to it's new location on prospect. These were the two main restaurants / bars that theatre actors and patrons used... The krause building, where wonder bar now sits was formerly the krause costume shop... If you want to know more... :wink: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,19062.new.html#new
May 5, 200916 yr ^I have some fond memories of the old Otto Moser's space and really, really wish they were still in it. To me, that kind of continuity and history is irreplaceable and is really conspicuously lacking in Cleveland despite its age.
May 6, 200916 yr The new "City Living" came out today and has a nice article about East 4th. It said that MRN is trying to attract a bookstore. Has anyone heard about this?
May 6, 200916 yr I just have a hard copy, I couldn't find a link online. It's published by Scene so I'm sure it will be on their website soon.
May 6, 200916 yr The new "City Living" came out today and has a nice article about East 4th. It said that MRN is trying to attract a bookstore. Has anyone heard about this? I haven't heard anything about it... but boy would that be about a perfect fit. I'd imagine they would be looking to use the E. 4th side of the McRory Building, which also conicidentally would be perfect fit sizewise for something like that. They've been using that space as a staging area pretty much since they started work on the street... Another interesting note about this possibility is that the McRory Building is actually L shaped and at one time had a Euclid entrance as well... obviously this became part of the corner alley. However the building was also originally connected to a storefront on the interior of the Euclid Arcade, which served as an entrance as well. They've since walled that off so it looks like any other arcade storefront... but my guess is pretty easily that could be reconnected, which would allow people to access the bookstore through the arcade, and then head out onto 4th. Hmmmmm.... I like it.
May 6, 200916 yr That sort of has a Coventry feel, but better. They have the bookstore with entrances from inside Tommy's and the street. Obviously with the colonial arcade, that would add a whole new, unique effect.
May 6, 200916 yr Interesting...but maybe surprising? New bookstores aren't exactly popping up in many places these days, and not just because of the economy. Fingers crossed.
May 6, 200916 yr Interesting...but maybe surprising? New bookstores aren't exactly popping up in many places these days, and not just because of the economy. Fingers crossed. never mind
May 6, 200916 yr If a bookstore is in the works for E. 4th, I'd like to see something like The Loft in C-bus/German Village. If not downtown, then maybe Tremont or OC...
May 6, 200916 yr Interesting...but maybe surprising? New bookstores aren't exactly popping up in many places these days, and not just because of the economy. Fingers crossed. Maybe they could sell software and video games too, like a miniature Borders megastore. Maybe they could take up multiple storefronts in the arcade and offer a competitive selection. Uptown is getting one of those, supposedly. I bet downtown could handle one too. Per my usual theory, I bet they would steal business from suburban locations far more than from each other. Right now everyone downtown has to leave to get this stuff, though they'd all prefer not to. I think it could work. why don't we just let this play out before turning the arcade into the world's largest bookstore. FYI there is a game stop at tower city.
May 6, 200916 yr why don't we just let this play out before turning the arcade into the world's largest bookstore. FYI there is a game stop at tower city. ...and a small Borders.
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