WonderBar 101: How to create and destroy a good idea almost overnight.

 

1. Find a cool old building on a historic pedestrian friendly street in a "hip" urban neighborhood quickly growing in both residents and foot traffic next to too many anchors to count.

2. Do a great job on your interior creating a warm classy space from the bar, to the color selections, to the art, to the restrooms.

3. Hire an excellent chef for small plates.

4. Create a jazz theme, with live piano and soothing jazz sounds on the speakers when the piano isn't playing.

5. know your audience and cater to the 30 to 50 somethings for a sophisticated environment.

6. somehow lose your chef and then start serving things that seem like they came out of a microwave.  I mean I know "foodies" like rnr will be critical of places like zocalo, but hey it's mexican which there isn't much of around, and it's at least decent.  You can't be on a food street and basically only serve things like flatbread pizza that looks, smells, and tastes like it was heated in a microwave.

7. be a jazz bar that stops having any kind of jazz.  Actually most times its dead silent and when you are one of about 6 people in there all you here is the echo of people talking.

8. charge twice as much as every other establishment on the street for your drinks.

9. never be open... I fully understand some peoples frustrations with some venues "winter hours" but that is a fact of life in Cleveland.  People hibernate, establishments get 1,2, mostly 0 people for days on end and after one winter of saying "we're going to be open all the time" losing their shirt and having to reinvest lots of $$$... "winter hours".  But this place is NEVER open.  it's the only place on the street not open during lunch time in the summer hours.  Of course they don't really serve food anymore... but I once walked by and saw a bewildered beer delivery guy walking away from the door saying "how do you expect to stay in business, when you aren't even open for your delivery."  I don't even know when they open in the evenings.

10. Have a bartender that ignores people and is lazy.  Then have this person also be the waitress, server, and barback. Of course you can't comment on it because the place is so silent and your conversations reverberate off the walls so loudly people in the group just exchange glances and shake their head.

11. keep charging twice as much as everyone else for drinks.

12. when a group of people come in after an engagement party and are the only people in the bar have really poor service, and when someone says, "can we get SOMETHING in terms of music on, ANYTHING? Really we're TRYING to stay here and give you money." stare at them blankly and act put off by the request.

 

One of my friend calls this place wonderworthless.  Seriously if anyone has any bar ownership experience at all and wants to make some money... Please... Buy this place and just repeat steps 1-5.  It will work.  Just avoid steps 6-12.

 

Too bad about the Zocalo walk out. I thought that was a great 'sell' in the summertime for eating there, with the bar area flowing right into the patio.

 

The windows still open for the breeze, and you will still be able to "walk right out" to the patio from the bar via that new doorway.

 

So...  do you know what the code says that Zocalo was violating?  In a nutshell...

^I agree... Zocalo I am not worried about. It is the Vietnamese place right next door that always looks "half-empty" to me.

 

My girlfriend has said the same thing for a while.  She loves the food there (as do I) but it never seems busy.  I'm guessing it does a better lunch crowd than dinner crowd.

WonderBar 101: How to create and destroy a good idea almost overnight.

 

I agree.  But I wonder if they're actually "hurting".  On game nights, they seem to be pretty busy.  So maybe they make enough money on those nights, plus they're in the hot new district so they can get away with it...  That would almost be worse!  I'd rather they went out of business and something better go in there instead of being sub-par forever...

 

Too bad Zocalo had to change the access to the patio.

I liked how it was. It'll be interesting to see what they're doing with the exterior color scheme right now.

 

Is Greenhouse Tavern still putting an actual greenhouse and outdoor seating area on its rooftop?

 

 

WonderBar 101: How to create and destroy a good idea almost overnight.

 

1. Find a cool old building on a historic pedestrian friendly street in a "hip" urban neighborhood quickly growing in both residents and foot traffic next to too many anchors to count.

2. Do a great job on your interior creating a warm classy space from the bar, to the color selections, to the art, to the restrooms.

3. Hire an excellent chef for small plates.

4. Create a jazz theme, with live piano and soothing jazz sounds on the speakers when the piano isn't playing.

5. know your audience and cater to the 30 to 50 somethings for a sophisticated environment.

6. somehow lose your chef and then start serving things that seem like they came out of a microwave. I mean I know "foodies" like rnr will be critical of places like zocalo, but hey it's mexican which there isn't much of around, and it's at least decent. You can't be on a food street and basically only serve things like flatbread pizza that looks, smells, and tastes like it was heated in a microwave.

7. be a jazz bar that stops having any kind of jazz. Actually most times its dead silent and when you are one of about 6 people in there all you here is the echo of people talking.

8. charge twice as much as every other establishment on the street for your drinks.

9. never be open... I fully understand some peoples frustrations with some venues "winter hours" but that is a fact of life in Cleveland. People hibernate, establishments get 1,2, mostly 0 people for days on end and after one winter of saying "we're going to be open all the time" losing their shirt and having to reinvest lots of $$$... "winter hours". But this place is NEVER open. it's the only place on the street not open during lunch time in the summer hours. Of course they don't really serve food anymore... but I once walked by and saw a bewildered beer delivery guy walking away from the door saying "how do you expect to stay in business, when you aren't even open for your delivery." I don't even know when they open in the evenings.

10. Have a bartender that ignores people and is lazy. Then have this person also be the waitress, server, and barback. Of course you can't comment on it because the place is so silent and your conversations reverberate off the walls so loudly people in the group just exchange glances and shake their head.

11. keep charging twice as much as everyone else for drinks.

12. when a group of people come in after an engagement party and are the only people in the bar have really poor service, and when someone says, "can we get SOMETHING in terms of music on, ANYTHING? Really we're TRYING to stay here and give you money." stare at them blankly and act put off by the request.

 

One of my friend calls this place wonderworthless. Seriously if anyone has any bar ownership experience at all and wants to make some money... Please... Buy this place and just repeat steps 1-5. It will work. Just avoid steps 6-12.

 

 

I was so pumped when I heard a jazz bar was opening on East 4th...however this place is terrible. I've gone there 3 times (no jazz each time and it was on a weekend) and the service, prices etc were awful. The final straw was when the bartender gave me a warm beer and started arguing with me. Really? A beer should not be warm at all, especially an overpriced one.

^Depends on the beer^

 

Is Greenhouse Tavern still putting an actual greenhouse and outdoor seating area on its rooftop?

 

I know they're still working on it, but it's a more complex thing than they had imagined.

 

It would be nice.

I dig the wall signs (one of my fave things) pictured above that are on the end of the Windsor Block building(?),  I think that would be the correct building. I don't believe I knew about those.

Those would be in full view of a GHT rooftop deck.  :-)

 

 

^Depends on the beer^

 

Is Greenhouse Tavern still putting an actual greenhouse and outdoor seating area on its rooftop?

 

 

I know they're still working on it, but it's a more complex thing than they had imagined.

 

Fair point about the beer, but it was a Bud Light. Doesn't taste good warm.

^Depends on the beer^

 

 

I know they're still working on it, but it's a more complex thing than they had imagined.

 

Fair point about the beer, but it was a Bud Light. Doesn't taste good warm.

 

 

I too had a "warm beer experience there". And it's a shame because I bought a round of dortmunders for them and the glasses were warm like they had just came out of the dishwasher.  Ever hear of chilled beer glasses?? ( or at least not warm?)

I wonder what happened to the lady from Wonderbar that was coming on to post (I think last year)...  We could all be like....  WTF's up with .......

^Depends on the beer^

 

Is Greenhouse Tavern still putting an actual greenhouse and outdoor seating area on its rooftop?

 

 

I know they're still working on it, but it's a more complex thing than they had imagined.

 

Fair point about the beer, but it was a Bud Light. Doesn't taste good warm.

 

Ahh, yes Bud Light should always be served ice cold so as to numb the taste buds. (seriously, that's why)

That is a shame about Wonderbar.  If anyone hears it is for sale, let me know

 

Fair point about the beer, but it was a Bud Light. Doesn't taste good warm.

 

Bud Light doesn't taste good cold either.

WonderBar 101: How to create and destroy a good idea almost overnight.

 

1. Find a cool old building on a historic pedestrian friendly street in a "hip" urban neighborhood quickly growing in both residents and foot traffic next to too many anchors to count.

2. Do a great job on your interior creating a warm classy space from the bar, to the color selections, to the art, to the restrooms.

3. Hire an excellent chef for small plates.

4. Create a jazz theme, with live piano and soothing jazz sounds on the speakers when the piano isn't playing.

5. know your audience and cater to the 30 to 50 somethings for a sophisticated environment.

6. somehow lose your chef and then start serving things that seem like they came out of a microwave.  I mean I know "foodies" like rnr will be critical of places like zocalo, but hey it's mexican which there isn't much of around, and it's at least decent.  You can't be on a food street and basically only serve things like flatbread pizza that looks, smells, and tastes like it was heated in a microwave.

7. be a jazz bar that stops having any kind of jazz.  Actually most times its dead silent and when you are one of about 6 people in there all you here is the echo of people talking.

8. charge twice as much as every other establishment on the street for your drinks.

9. never be open... I fully understand some peoples frustrations with some venues "winter hours" but that is a fact of life in Cleveland.  People hibernate, establishments get 1,2, mostly 0 people for days on end and after one winter of saying "we're going to be open all the time" losing their shirt and having to reinvest lots of $$$... "winter hours".  But this place is NEVER open.  it's the only place on the street not open during lunch time in the summer hours.  Of course they don't really serve food anymore... but I once walked by and saw a bewildered beer delivery guy walking away from the door saying "how do you expect to stay in business, when you aren't even open for your delivery."  I don't even know when they open in the evenings.

10. Have a bartender that ignores people and is lazy.  Then have this person also be the waitress, server, and barback. Of course you can't comment on it because the place is so silent and your conversations reverberate off the walls so loudly people in the group just exchange glances and shake their head.

11. keep charging twice as much as everyone else for drinks.

12. when a group of people come in after an engagement party and are the only people in the bar have really poor service, and when someone says, "can we get SOMETHING in terms of music on, ANYTHING? Really we're TRYING to stay here and give you money." stare at them blankly and act put off by the request.

 

 

Without disclosing my source, I know quite a bit about the whole Wonder Bar story and I can tell you that it's poor management and poor decisions in leading this establishment that has brought it to where it is.  I completely agree it is a shame, but it was evident from the time they opened that there were major management problems, even to someone with no restaurant experience who was visiting the place, and things went from bad to worse.  It's really too bad.

 

re: Saigon, I went there twice and found it bland.  Once was by myself for takeout, the other was sit-down with a co-worker and she didn't think much of what she had either.  It's too bad, as they are nice people and they already had another shop close up (the #1 PHO in Middleburg).  Not only have they dumbed down the food for an American palate (at least what they seem to think an American palate is), what they have is IMO very mediocre.  There's not anything "wrong" with it, but given all the other choices on the street, this would be my last choice.

My wife works around the corner from E. 4th and loves Saigon, probably goes there once every two weeks.

 

re: Saigon, I went there twice and found it bland. Once was by myself for takeout, the other was sit-down with a co-worker and she didn't think much of what she had either. It's too bad, as they are nice people and they already had another shop close up (the #1 PHO in Middleburg). Not only have they dumbed down the food for an American palate (at least what they seem to think an American palate is), what they have is IMO very mediocre. There's not anything "wrong" with it, but given all the other choices on the street, this would be my last choice.

 

Meh. I liked it. Of course the caveat here is I almost never get to eat at places like this since my wife doesn't typically enjoy it (she can't eat anything too exotic or watch out), so I'm either sneaking in on my own, or grabbing a friend to go with. I don't have much experience with Vietnamese, so I didn't have any expectations going in. Re: the bland, I did think that my wife would have no problems with the menu selections, so maybe there's something to that.

^^ It's always been really odd to me that Saigon seems empty every time I walk by (and I didn't even know about the outpost in Middleburg), when it does so well on East 32nd ... Seems to be an Asiatown favorite among the out-of-neighborhooders (and I like it to :) ).

I think it's a difficult menu.  If it were some kind of traditional Americanized Chinese type food, they'd be packed with regular people.  If it were truly authentic food, they'd be packed with foodies and those who love real ethnic food.  As such, they seem to have a watered down identify, food-wise, that is difficult to make a top choice when looking at all the options on 4th. 

But it's interesting that it's a very similar menu to #1 Pho in Asiatown and brings in comparable or larger dinner crowds than the more Americanized Chinese restaurants in the neighborhood. I'm wondering if it's a demographic mismatch ... that the people who seek it out are more likely to want to eat in Asiatown than on East 4th, while, as you noted, the casual walk-by customer on East 4th might not be drawn to Vietnamese cuisine with more accessible choices (i.e. choices that are more familiar to the average American) available on all sides. And there's also something to be said for the comment above about it always looking closed, whereas with its giant windows and uplighting on E. 32nd, you can see all the activity from the street.

I've eaten at Saigon twice, and both times it was really crowded (lunch).

I loved the food.

Maybe Saigan should open a banh mi window.  That would certainly get me there if I worked in downtown Cleve.

the place is almost always packed at lunch.

it is going to be a museum!

 

Note: grammer correction.

 

Note, note: spelling correction? :P

No, it was grammer believe me.

 

I was joking because you spelled grammar wrong.

Oh, sorry. Wikipedia says it is "common" to misspell it:P

A few months ago we had some discussion about a demolition permit request for the 310 Prospect building (black granite building directly across the street (south) from Flannery's.  Well it's offically come up on the Design Review agenda this week. 

 

I'm quoted a serious of relevant posts to provide some easy reference.

Well here's some news to brighten up your Tuesday! Demolition permits have been applied for the 310 Prospect Ave. building. Cause, ya know, what that nabe really needs is more surface parking!

 

Start yer emails to Building & Housing (Ed Rybka, [email protected]) and the Planning Commission (Bob Brown, [email protected]).

 

:-)

 

This demo was set in motion last spring when some Californian parking operators bought the place...we expected as much then: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7006.270.html

 

Here's my letter to Ed Rybka:

 

 

Ed, I am writing because I'm very concerned about the proposed domolition of the building at 310 Prospect.  Hasn't Clevleland lost enough of its heritage? To allow another building to be forever lost would be short-sighted and counterproductive.

 

Sincerely,

 

Scott D.

 

 

 

Here is Ed's response:

 

Scott,

 

Your view is personally shared by me. But, the decision will be made by the Planning Commission.

 

While my Dept condemned the structure, it does not follow that the solution sought is the demolition of the structure. Rehab should usually be the preference.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

Ed

 

 

 

Response from Robert Brown, Director of Planning Commission....

 

Thanks for writing.  For the proposed demolition to occur, the application must be reviewed and approved by a vote of the City Planning Commission.  Prior to that, the owner must submit documentation that shows that the it is infeasible to rehabilitate and re-use the building.  None of that has taken place at this time.  The City Planning office is working with the Historic Gateway Development Corporation in considering the proposal and other options. 

 

Cleveland's codes and policies make preservation of historically and architecturally significant buildings a priority.  Although it has sometimes been determined it is not feasible to save a particular building, preservation is always the first choice for such buildings, including the building at 310 Prospect.

 

Robert N. Brown, Director

Cleveland City Planning Commission

601 Lakeside Avenue, Cleveland, OH 44114

[email protected]

 

 

 

I've been pretty tied up lately but did want to add a little to this... This particular building is not in the East 4th Historic District, but it is part of the lower Huron / Prospect Historic District.  The last owners applied for a demolition permit as well... it was denied. HGN is already involved to make sure this application is also denied.

 

An interesting tidbit about the building itself... where the current surface lot is next to this building (once the home to ferris steak house), the building was lost due to fire.  However that building, along with the black granite building in question, and the brick building that house Family Sportswear, were all actually the same building.  The original facade was what is currently on the upper floors of the family sportswear building (which was also in the 60's the home of "Record Rendezvous" where Alan Fried coined the term rock n' roll).  The goal is to get the buildings rehabbed with at least the original facade brought back on the black granite section unifying the building again...

And here's the reference from the Design Review Agenda:

 

DF 2010-015 - Building Demolition and Parking Lot Expansion 310 Prospect Avenue, Ward 3

Project Representative: Joel Cole, Network Parking

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2010/050710/index.php

  The original facade was what is currently on the upper floors of the family sportswear building (which was also in the 60's the home of "Record Rendezvous" where Alan Fried coined the term rock n' roll).  The goal is to get the buildings rehabbed with at least the original facade brought back on the black granite section unifying the building again...

 

This alone is why this building should be saved -- moot point of any of our urban planning beliefs.  How is there not a historic landmark there?  Where is the Rock Hall on this one??

^ Absolutely! One thing to demolish for another structure...But another parking lot? I cannot imagine how short sighted it is to think of approving this.

If we are going to cite history to save the building - at least get the right decade. Alan Freed coined the term "rock-n-roll" in the 50's, not the 60's.

moot point*

If you see something wrong in another post, a friendly correction is always welcome, snarky ones aren't.

 

For instance, Allan Freed did not actually coin the term.  It was a blues reference since the '20's, and Leo Mintz used the term in the late 1940's to sell R&B records at his store, Record Rendezvous.  Mintz and Freed became friends, and Freed soon moved from Akron to Cleveland in the late 40s.  In 1951 he went to WJW and started the Moondog Rock & Roll house party. 

Many DJs were playing R&B across the country, but Freed was the only one to call it Rock -n- Roll.

 

I agree with Murray Hill, the Rock Hall should be leading the fight for preservation.  Do we have a contact?

i despise network parking

just an fyi... just because this is going to planning commission doesn't necessarily mean it's really being "considered", it's just the process legally playing out.  Let's just say I've heard that the folks at LRM and Network Parking don't really have any friends in this fight and it hasn't been well recieved... all the way up the pole.  Actually, I'm wondering if this backfires and in addition to denying the request for demo they are slapped with having to make any code violation improvements to the building.  Sadly though, as is always the case, I'm sure this is just the most recent attempt of what will be many to find a way to get this building down.  But I'm pretty confident they won't win the battle this time around.

How can we make them sell this building to someone with more appreciation for its true worth?

Unfortunately you really can't.  I had a conversation with a local developer who's done a couple small (but successful and important) projects downtown about a month ago and we were discussing this type of issue.  He said the the worst part is these companies are like vultures.  They are often large, out of town, extremely well capitalized companies that swoop in, gobble things up when values are low... and then just sit on them.  Unlike smaller local developers who both want to do projects for the positive effect, but also HAVE to find a way to get them moving so they can generate cashflow... these companies can absorb the cost of doing nothing.  So they just sit on them and wait for either someone to buy the building at a large profit... or they move to turn them into asphault so they can become a "productive" (i.e. cash generating) use.  I think vultures was a good term.

I wonder what Joe Cimperman's thoughts are on the matter...I may craft an email when I find a moment

I see no reason why the city couldn't pass some sort of "unimproved property" tax that assesses large fees on open parking lots within the central business district.  If I am not mistaken, other cities have done the same thing.  It could be used to combat this type of behavior.

 

The reality, though, is that most politicians do not have the stomach to pass that sort of thing.

look no further than our friends in CBus for examples of what this sort of unchecked demolition does to the urban fabric

 

http://tinyurl.com/2b54eft

 

I see no reason why the city couldn't pass some sort of "unimproved property" tax that assesses large fees on open parking lots within the central business district. If I am not mistaken, other cities have done the same thing. It could be used to combat this type of behavior.

 

That's a great idea.

^^Or Cleveland... look at the WHD, Erieview, etc.

 

Well, it's good to know that it appears that the company is just going through the motions and more than likely won't get too far.  How is it that buildings in our core are allowed to deteriorate to the extreme point where they are ALLOWED to be demolished?  Market forces, I know... I'm just venting.

I see no reason why the city couldn't pass some sort of "unimproved property" tax that assesses large fees on open parking lots within the central business district.  If I am not mistaken, other cities have done the same thing.  It could be used to combat this type of behavior.

 

That's a great idea.

 

Let's do it.  Should have been done years ago.  This is not a radical notion, this is common sense.

 

There should be a deterioration tax too.  With ownership comes responsibility.  Nobody has they right to destroy Cleveland, regardless of wealth and regardless of market forces.   

This is the guy to whom your emails should be directed:    http://www.tlrgc.com/bios_joel_cole.html   

 

I don't see any contact information, but I'm sure it can be found at the L&R Group (The company that owns Network Parking) website somewhere.  I just don't have time to look now.

The Cleveland Bodies Exhibit has started to sell tickets.

 

I haven't been there to see what they have done yet but for some reason I thought they would have some parts of it visible to the general public (through a window) but from the pics on the site it looks like the whole thing is covered in posters.

 

They also have a bunch of videos and other info if you want to check it out.

 

http://www.bodiestheexhibition.com/cleveland/

$22 for an adult ticket seems a bit pricey to me.  Maybe I'm just cheap.

A bit pricey?  22 dollars is ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS.  That's what the Newseum in DC charges for crying out loud, and you can spend an entire weekend there without seeing everything.

 

I'd love to see the E4 exhibit but this is going be a complete failure unless the price hits reality.

 

 

I looked up the last Bodies Exhibit that was at the Great Lakes Science Center (5 years ago) and admission to that was $16 and I remember that did fairly well. They also had a combo package to the Science Center and the Exhibit for $21 which was a really good deal. Hopefully with the increased popularity of these exhibits people will still spend the 22 dollars and enjoy something that you don't get to see often.

 

This is a bit pricey, eventhough I am sure it is a quality exhibition.....  On another note...Who was it that mentioned a wax museum on or near 4th? That would be something interesting too....  Something quirky to do like seeing Vincent Price's House of Wax!

The exhibit is pricey but if you are really into learning how the body works it is really worth it. I went to body worlds and was so amazed at how everything turned out. But, it's just one of those things where we'll just have to wait and see how people respond to it.

Holy crap, I'm surprised about that price too.

It may be worth the price of admission, however, I don't see alot of couples spending $44 dollars for this, and then going out for lunch or dinner after that an E4th and spending more.  That's my concern.  It would be a true success for E4th if it was very reasonably priced, and acted as a good draw for restaurants.