I'm honestly a little unhappy with the emerging mix of tennats for E.4th and Prospect. That whole part should really have tennants that could draw on traffic from sports games and HOB. Pubs, a variety of reasonably priced restaurants, and some retail would make better use of its location there downtown than clubs and high end restaurants. I really like Flannery's there, and the pizzaria concept makes a lot of sense to me. In additon I'd like to see a 24 hour restaurant and an ESPN Zone. But In my opinion clubs like View and high end restaurants like Lola would be a lot better situated in the Warehouse District.

i rather like how the little district is making itself up as it goes and keeping it mostly local. there is no blueprint for what is happening. i think there is plenty of room on prospect and around the q/jake for more sports related stuff. i'd say the thing now is that they need a big jolt of residential development right in and around the immediate e4th area.

I don't know if a night club is a real great fit for the area. The V Lounge closed (correct me if I'm wrong), and View is always dead.

 

Are you serious about The View. That place jumps almost all the time, especially Sunday nights.

I think the View will really take off once Rosie O'Donnell joins

 

 

:)

One of my favorite parts to Beale St. in Memphis is that there is a nice diner amongst all the bars. Sometimes you just need to sit in a quiet place and eat some french fries when out for a night on the town.  I would highly doubt that Maron doesn't understand this. 

 

Another thought: the first floor of the Sincere Building has soo many columns. I think that many prospective tenants balk at that space due to its limitations. On the other hand, it enjoys great visibility. 

As many of you are expressing, I was hoping E 4th would find a little different niche than the Warehouse District -- a little quieter and oriented toward residents rather than visitors. However, the mix that is developing is almost an exact replica of the WD: restaurants and nightclubs, period. Part of this may have to do with the rents MRN is charging; from what I hear, they are prohibitive to indepedent retail merchants. I can only hope greater variety comes with time and increasing population.

Part of this may have to do with the rents MRN is charging; from what I hear, they are prohibitive to indepedent retail merchants.

 

this is too bad if it is the case.  this area seems like a prime area for "creative" rent structures that escalate as business/sales/some other factors grow.   unless the rents charged are so high that sitting on empty storefronts for years at a time makes sense, i'd much rather have the activity now with some sort of scaled rent.  maybe the independent gets "forced" out in 5 years, but come on.  there are still boards everywhere down here. 

Lets get the arcades hopping again with independent retail.  I remember when stores like Passport to Peru was in the Arcade.

 

(are they still in coventry?)

Yeah, but how many woven backpacks can one person have*?

 

(Sorry - not a fan of the hippie/grunge look)

Yeah, but how many woven backpacks can one person have*?

 

(Sorry - not a fan of the hippie/grunge look)

 

Since when did the indigenous Peruvians go grunge?  ;)

Yeah, well if any of the hippie/grungesters I've seen are indigenous Peruvians, I'll grow dreadlocks! :lol:

Well, you got the nappy hair...

My hair has been a lot of things, but I can assure you it has NEVER been nappy!

Who thinks H&M would have been (would be) a good fit around here somewhere?  Instead of or in addition to opening new stores in Beachwood, Strongsville and North Olmsted (yawn!)... you'd think they might try to gain a Downtown presence... (grumble, grumble)

I remeber a while back KJP said Stark was in talks with retailers. Maybe they are planning a larger Flagship in the revamped Warehouse district. It would make sense with all the young people that frequent the area at night.

Yeah, but that's still a few years off.  I'm still crossing my fingers for lower Euclid and E. 4th once the ECTP is wrapped up.  And then, yes, of course the suped up WHD.

I remeber a while back KJP said Stark was in talks with retailers. Maybe they are planning a larger Flagship in the revamped Warehouse district. It would make sense with all the young people that frequent the area at night.

 

With four local stores, H & M is losing its uniqueness. Why go downtown when you could get it in your own suburb?

 

 

word on the halls of city hall is that a notice of violation was issued for the parking lot on prospect.  seems pretty stupid for ari to not get this taken care of - unless he was trying to sneak one by the city.

 

there was no building permit taken out and the final product doesn't match the approved zoning variance. 

I remeber a while back KJP said Stark was in talks with retailers. Maybe they are planning a larger Flagship in the revamped Warehouse district. It would make sense with all the young people that frequent the area at night.

With four local stores, H & M is losing its uniqueness. Why go downtown when you could get it in your own suburb?

 

It seems as if H&M has been losing its uniqueness in general.  In the markets thay've already entered they seem to be reaching saturation levels of the Gap and other mall-oriented retailers.  Not to say that there wouldn't be a market for one in the downtown area, but it might be wise to pursue another similar retailer such as Zara that has yet to enter the Cleveland market.

 

Zara now! That would certainly be my #2 choice, after Topman ... which apparently is (finally) hitting NYC.

With four local stores, H & M is losing its uniqueness. Why go downtown when you could get it in your own suburb?

 

I don't care if it's unique or not... I don't live in the suburbs and I'd prefer not to have to leave the city to shop!

 

Why go to the suburbs when you can get it in the city?  (because it ain't in the city yet!)

With four local stores, H & M is losing its uniqueness. Why go downtown when you could get it in your own suburb?

 

It's not unusual for the downtown stores of mall chains to be larger, with an extended line of merchandise.

Am I crazy to think that the H&Ms of the world will not locate in downtown Cleveland unless a few other similar style retailers do so as well?  Hopefully Stark will implement that strategy.  (If so, I can see some more flight from Tower City.)

Not crazy at all... I think that's part of the problem.  Without your anchor department store or other tenant, some of the other chains aren't as comfortable being the first to open up a storefront on Euclid, Prospect, E. 4th, W. 6th, etc.  It's like the Walmart issue in the 'burbs (and now Cleveland)... would Target, Giant Eagle, Home Depot, Dick's, etc. agree to sign on if not for the initial Walmart anchor?  According to Mitch Schneider, Walmart's presence was a make-or-break deal for Steelyard Commons.  This is why Stark's plan to get a portfolio of tenants signed on before he builds is a safe and solid way to go for Downtown Cleveland.  In the meantime, however, there are loads of retail spaces in existing buildings that are ripe for the stocking.  Unfortunately, it seems that low buying power numbers and an unproven market (in recent years) is keeping them away.  It could also have something to do with the way the developers/owners are marketing to or targeting their tenants, but I couldn't tell you that for certain.

^ I think our difficulty getting retail downtown also has to do with the lack of priority we place on this issue as a region. At the same time Stark and Wolstein are proposing their big, retail-heavy projects for downtown, Marous is planning a new lifestyle center for Brecksville and some other developer has his eye on North Royalton. These will join a plethora of existing malls and lifestyle centers in the burbs. Yet any downtown retail project will rely heavily on suburban shoppers, at least in the near term, because of downtown's small population. To reiterate Wimwar's point, why would these people come downtown to shop when they can do so more easily -- and with free parking -- on the fringes?

 

Until we agree as a region that we want to bring retail back downtown, it's difficult to imagine it happening until the downtown population grows enough to support it on its own (which could be decades).

"To reiterate Wimwar's point, why would these people come downtown to shop when they can do so more easily -- and with free parking -- on the fringes?"

 

Just a quick question... do you pay for parking at Tower City or do you get a voucher after seeing a movie, having dinner, shopping?

I'm just saying we need to stop developing in the burbs if we want downtown retail to come back. Even if parking weren't an issue, why would someone drive from Brecksville to downtown if they can get everything they need in their backyards?

I'm just saying we need to stop developing in the burbs if we want downtown retail to come back. Even if parking weren't an issue, why would someone drive from Brecksville to downtown if they can get everything they need in their backyards?

 

That's true. The only way to get them is to create an experience that they can't have somewhere else. But to some degree, the suburbanites are a fickle bunch. Tower City was a unique experience, and look what happened there. Everyone stopped going and the only people left where the city kids. So, then all the suburban people start bitching about the city kids ruining the place.

 

But to some degree, we're in a bind because suburban people have very skewed opinions of downtown Cleveland.

 

Things I've heard:

 

*Be careful out there, I don't want you getting mugged (someone told me this after I took a walk downtown on my lunch break)

*I avoid coming downtown at all costs because of the traffic (Uh, hello, you work in Beachwood, which has way more traffic than downtown)

*Are you scared when you take the train? (my sister asked me this!)

 

This is the problem because people like this bitch about Cleveland being lousy and boring and then they go to NYC or Chicago where they have urban shopping, and all of the sudden they love it. It doesn't occur to anyone that we could have the same thing here. Gah!

i'd just be happy to have basic services in the near term.  i think e4 is trying to cater to the suburban crowd by being a "destination" with restaurants and attractions you can't find in the burbs.  that is fine and is needed. 

 

my problem is that i want:

- a full service grocery store within walking distance downtown.

- a target or some other full service generalized shopping downtown.  as much as i dislike the dollar store concept in tower city, i actually find a lot of stuff there when i refuse to drive. 

- non $20/plate restaurants that i want to eat at on a tuesday night (ie a jimmy johns that stays open past 7pm and is open on the weekends). 

 

i suppose that it is a delicate balance, but i think the resident ammenities need to start growing. 

But to some degree, we're in a bind because suburban people have very skewed opinions of downtown Cleveland.

 

Things I've heard:

 

*Be careful out there, I don't want you getting mugged (someone told me this after I took a walk downtown on my lunch break)

*I avoid coming downtown at all costs because of the traffic (Uh, hello, you work in Beachwood, which has way more traffic than downtown)

*Are you scared when you take the train? (my sister asked me this!)

 

This is the problem because people like this bitch about Cleveland being lousy and boring and then they go to NYC or Chicago where they have urban shopping, and all of the sudden they love it. It doesn't occur to anyone that we could have the same thing here. Gah!

 

You are so right, jamiec. I think these comments (w/ no offense meant to sis, cause I hear it in my own family) is due to plain ignorance.  People refuse to come in town then play on the nasty 'rumors' of others who don't.  Or they read the Plain Dealer, which can't play up city negativity fast enough.  Coming downtown should be more of a positive, Big event not some kind of trip of peril seeking boredom some folks have in their minds.  Don't laugh, but more and more, I'm finding Cleveland, esp downtown, to become more and more NYC/Chicago/Boston, etc-like every day.  There are now 2 (count 'em, 2!) supermarkets, movie & live theaters, art houses, swanky hotels and restaurants gallore.  And our downtown is very transit/ped oriented.

 

We've been quite pleasantly surprised on 'slow days', like yesterday (and Mondays) that there's a comfortable buzz of pedestrians, joggers, tourists (yeah, we've got a few) and dog-walkers, esp in the Warehouse Dist.  I'm really, though, pumped at all that's going on along E. 4th.  The McGrory's rehab appears in full swing and, yes, they've finally put a Lola's sign out at long last-- (call it sLoWla's -- just in time for the winter season, but I guess better late than never!).  Lower Euclid may actually grab a corner of the vitality it had 20-40 years ago and that bygone era.

 

A few Qs:

 

- what do they intend on doing with the Sincere 1st level?  They've stripped it naked exposing the beams like some new construction -- poss a new restaurant -- will be built.  (if I were a resident I may be a tad concerned having the building's lower extremeties exposed to any tom, dick or harry off the street, esp in these wacko times... 'nough said.

 

-- I'm glad they finally spruced up the facade of May's a bit and finally torn away that God-awful scaffolding that blocked lower Prospect from Fat Fish Blue and Ontario/Tower City.  What plans do they have for May's?  Anything new?  Some kind of retail and office should go in there.  Hell, I'd even settle for a Target at this point.  Anything but the vacant hulk that exists now.

 

-- Why have they torn down the buildings surrounding the expanded Flannery's restaurant?  What purpose does it serve only to allow more surface parking (so we want E. 4th to start looking like the WHD in that sense?).  Isn't the density of old buildings what gives Gateway its charm?  And wouldn't you rather have an old, empty derelict building sitting there for future rehab than an empty lot which, knowing Cleveland, may never get built upon?  A great example is the solid frontage of older and newer buildings along Huron west of E. 9th.  Its an attractive line of buildings in an area that's developing more and more foot-traffic all the time -- and I just don't mean on Indians/Cavs game days, either.

 

-- finally, any word on 515 Euclid as regards the planned condo tower?  Talk about finishing off the immediate neighborhood and give a serious NYC feel to the area, this would do it!

Sometimes I think people on this board paint the evil "suburbanites with too broad a brush.  Just because they prefer to live in the suburbs for one reason or another does not mean they are constantly bad mouthing downtown Cleveland or don't enjoy what it has to offer.  Many people make ignorant comments (including those who actually live in the city and we don't bash them), but you hear those same comments about city life across the nation.

 

My siblings are perfect examples of suburbanites who enjoy Cleveland and are  boosters of the town.  None of them has every work or lived downtown as I have.  Currently two live in Hudson and one in Bainbridge.  They prefer to live in those communities because they have kids and want good schools, enjoy a large lot and want to be close to where they work, among other reasons.  Still they enjoy going downtown and University Circle for the restaurants, theaters, sporting events, museums and special events which happen in the city (they certainly don't shop downtown, but there is a good reason for that...no place to shop...I don't even shop downtown any more...in years pass almost 90% of my shopping was downtown).  They certainly have no irrational fear of crime and have no problems walking the streets at any time of the day or night.  I guess my point is that not everybody is cut out for urban living, but that does not make them the enemy.  The people who make uninformed comments (again either suburbanites or city dwellers) will never change and we probably should not waste our energies trying to convert them.  Just give them a roll of the eyes or a  knowing smile and leave it at that.

It's not a matter of painting suburbanites as "the enemy" - it's a matter of explaining the disconnect, which is stemmed in decades of flight from city centers.

 

My question to you - they obviously understand the need for Cleveland proper to remain strong on a day-to-day basis, right? How much of an impact can they possibly have on that by visiting the city a la carte once every couple of months for special occasions from Hudson and Bainbridge?

 

Don't get me wrong, it's great that they do because I know some cities where even that wouldn't happen. I just wish more of their fellow Hudsonites and other suburbanites felt that supporting Cleveland was in their best interests. However, let's face it - "hoping" that Cleveland improves because they stopped in for an event or two at the Q, or had a ladies' night out on West 6th? It's gonna take a lot more than that, and accomplishing that is hard enough if you reside in Cuyahoga County itself. Add on the travel time from Summit and Portage County - well, I think you see the disconnect.

Sometimes I think people on this board paint the evil "suburbanites with too broad a brush.

 

That's a phony straw man (or woman). I don't recall anyone (certainly not me) ever saying suburbanites are 'evil'.  What I rightfully said, though, is those who live outside the city and tear it down, verbally ("you'll get mugged if you travel downtown, use public trans, go to Tower City"... and the like) are spreading ignorance and/or perpetuating it by buying in to such comments when we know it isn't true.

 

They prefer to live in those communities because they have kids and want good schools, enjoy a large lot and want to be close to where they work, among other reasons.

 

To each's own, Htsguy.  Everybody has a right to live where they want in this country per the 1st Amendment.  But I don't see why your siblings have to live in the next county(ies) to enjoy those things.  Why can't they find that inside the city -- Edgewater, Riverside Drive and Shaker Square, areas, to name a few offer that w/in Cleveland proper...  You call yourself "Htsguy" -- I don't know if that means you're from there or live there -- but certainly you, yourself, know that the bulk of the Heights offers some of the optimal living conditions in the nation.  While not pointing the finger at your sibs, it's almost as bad when people throw around the term "Inner ring suburbs" as though the whole encompassing area Cleveland + Shaker, Lakewood, Cleve Hts, U. Hts, etc, etc. were some big, dangerous ghetto.  Living 25 to 30 miles away from a medium size central city like Cleveland mean going downtown, for them, is tantamount to a vacation for most people.  Your siblings can't even catch a commuter bus from where they live downtown.  And certainly, their taxes in no way support Cleveland or Cuyahoga county.  Your siblings are not 'evil', but their living where they do creates evil for cities -- that is, it creates sprawl, destroys the mother city's tax base and spawns racial/political hegemony and discourages diversity and understanding -- I'm going to take a large leap of assumption and guess you/your sibs are Caucasian.  I know Hudson and Bainbridge are 90% white and very conservative, politically, and usually that means living in places where an 'us against them' mentality exists; places where the Ann Coulters and Rush Limbaugh's of the world thrive and where trying to understand others withers and is looked upon as a weakness, both for the community and the nation and yada, yada, yada.  I know nothing about Bainbridge, but know Hudson has a very historic and quaint downtown area -- the city is only 2 or 3 years younger than Cleveland, itself and CWRU's predecessor, Western Reserve College, was originally founded and housed there (where WR Academy is today).  A nice place visit, certainly.

 

Cities are the ultimate expression of human social cooperation. Unfortunately, in America we've bought into the (Republican and, ultimately, Libertarian) idea that "moving up" socially and economically connotes moving as far away from cities as you can get; and that moving away ultimately means the "freedom" to live and associate with those who live and think like you do.  But isn't the survival of cities and, even, this (rapidly shrinking) planet, premised upon the idea that we humans need to interact and cooperate with those who look, think and possibly behave (in a legit, legal sense) different than do we?  And isn't running away, to the next county in a medium-size metro area, diminishing the possibility of that survival and cooperation?  And let's face it, while your sibs may pat themselves on the back (and in some small way should be applauded) for making the arduous (and it is) choice to 'come in' to town every now and again -- while others boast the years, decades they haven't been into town-- their actions in running so far away are contributing to the destruction of the mother city and its surrounding county.  In addition to that, businesses that lure people to make such moves are doing no favors to our overall eco-system and survival by plowing under farm land and wilderness for cars and fumes and water/sewer sysems in regions that were not designed to handle it.

 

Your sibs are not necessarily evil, but their actions perpetuate the evil of our cities' decline, esp those so-called rust belt cities like Cleveland that are trying to retool of the energy and ingenuity (yes, that festival has more of a purpose than fancy gadgets and artwork) of young, upwardly mobile professionals like undoubtedly your siblings.

 

In Cleveland, not many people are willing to consider revitalizing the inner-city a personal responsibility. Fewer, I'd say, than in comparable cities like Pittsburgh, Cincinnati or even Buffalo. They live and do business outside the city, or outside Cuyahoga County, and expect Cleveland to somehow improve without them. But until this region and its people take a concerted interest in reviving the urban core (e.g., by limiting new high-end retail development to downtown as I mentioned earlier), we're not going to attract many outsiders either. And by outsiders I mean immigrants, new businesses, the much-ballyhooed creative class, etc. Outside investment follows inside investment. For example, why would any national retail chain -- take H&M for example -- be a pioneer downtown when even local retailers seem to prefer the suburbs? When most of the region's well-to-do households are outside the city? What message does that send about our own commitment to the central core?

 

We are beginning to catch on to this, of course, but it still disappoints me how few people are willing to personally contribute to the cause by living and/or working in the city. Yes, I'm idealistic but in this case I'd say I'm also being realistic.

So, about E.4th....

 

Is there now a shift to get things done for Cavs/LeBron season or is it just a matter of getting things done ASAP?

I agree with everything that's been said above and this is all very fresh because I was in one of these coversations last night with a Rocky River resident who loves coming into the city, but still has those things come out of her mouth every now and again that just make me cringe.  Things about the bus and walking around my neighborhood at night.  Things she's never done, but seems to know a lot about!

 

I agree that we generalize on here about pretty much everything...including what suburbanites think.  And that's not fair.  Many of them do the same to us and we don't like it, now do we?

 

Bottom line as this applies to our town is that there's something about the suburbs that allures people in a way that the city isn't.  It could be something as complex as race or as simple as a new house at the right moment.  But it could also be that they are often more convenient, or perceived as such.  We can't force people to get rid of their cars and choose walkable neighborhoods, but we can do our damnedest to make our inner city neighborhoods the most attractive and successful versions of what they are.  We have to make them the most desireable places to live and entice people to change their lifestyles in this way.  It's a market, folks, and Cleveland is still leaking its share!

Now, as this applies to E. 4th...

 

The question that many of us have raised here is that of whether or not MRN is building a neighborhood that people will choose to live in and that will spawn more demand than current supply affords.  That would push construction of our coveted 515 tower and for something across Prospect on E. 4th.  Will restaurants and night clubs do this?  I'm sure they will, to a certain extent.  But, as many of us are saying here, it's still not the complete picture. 

 

The jury's still out, though, as there's still quite a bit of space left to fill!

Just a little imagery to go with the discussion:

 

Quite fetching, really.  Though, I'm not sure if the placement of that crosswalk sign is still appropriate:

The hollowed out, opened up corner of E. 4th & Prospect:

Another view of the best new RTA bus waiting area!

It's coming together...even with all those vacancies!

From the north:

Progress on the Euclid side of the Corner Alley venue:

 

Now, as this applies to E. 4th...

 

The question that many of us have raised here is that of whether or not MRN is building a neighborhood that people will choose to live in and that will spawn more demand than current supply affords.  That would push construction of our coveted 515 tower and for something across Prospect on E. 4th.  Will restaurants and night clubs do this?  I'm sure they will, to a certain extent.  But, as many of us are saying here, it's still not the complete picture. 

 

The jury's still out, though, as there's still quite a bit of space left to fill!

My concern is that the venues they are attracting are ones that carry momentum for a few years and then the momentum drops off.  People check it out, continue to cater to these places for a while, then stop going (other than the HoB).  Obviously retail is needed, yet not in demand as of now.   

If the business is run well, it will keep itself fresh.

For instance the Treehouse in Tremont is always changing things up, and thier business continues to grow.  Same thing for Lola/Lolita.

 

On a personal note, I am quitting my job in automotive and buying into a bar in Downtown Chicago.

If the business is run well, it will keep itself fresh.

For instance the Treehouse in Tremont is always changing things up, and thier business continues to grow.  Same thing for Lola/Lolita.

 

On a personal note, I am quitting my job in automotive and buying into a bar in Downtown Chicago.

 

Why not in Cleveland!?! :)

I'm not so sure why but valet parking-and those signs in the street-bugs me.

 

On a personal note, I am quitting my job in automotive and buying into a bar in Downtown Chicago.

 

Wow, serious guts.  God I'm jealous.

make it a browns booster's bar!

It is a few blocks from Soldier Field, so my NFL allegiance is more or less settled.

 

But, The Bucks will be prominently featured.  No papers have been signed, so I guess this would still be an egg in a basket.  I get a formal offer tomorrow.

 

Cleveland is on the horizon.  I want to do a music venue in UC, a nice Euclid Tavern type place.

Give me a few years

Thoughtful post Mister Good Day.

 

Does anybody know what the occupancy rate for the apartments in the E. 4th area is?  Is it better or worse than the Warehouse District?

 

 

I would personaly like to see a waffle house in the area, even though I dont think they do urban locations. I think an old army/navy building on prospect, 1 story building near e 2nd, would work nice for one.

  ewwwww. 

Yep, you need a diner-style restaurant in the heart of the city.  I really don't know of too many casual places where you can grap a quick breakfast in the city.

Yep, you need a diner-style restaurant in the heart of the city.  I really don't know of too many casual places where you can grap a quick breakfast in the city.

 

I'm reminded of the IHOP in Arlington, VA (Ballston) that is surrounded by 20 story apt buildings....

 

 

would do wonders in the new expanded parking area next to flannery's

I'd like to see one go in opposite the bowling alley.  The location has large glass windows and visibility on Euclid and 4th.  Diners often give off a good energy if they are busy places.  Diversity amongst all the big clubs that are being built in the area is important.

There's a little cafe in the Statler where you can get a quick breakfast (or lunch or dinner). I know it's eight blocks east of east 4th, but hey.