But, if you live east or south of the Innerbelt, or west of the Cuyahoga, then you likely came across a bridge to get there.   :-D

 

True ... but if we don't come to destroy ice scupltures and proudly show people on the street the shard of Frosty we stole, we're obviously crossing different bridges  :wink:

Good point. ;-)

I was at Wonder Bar this weeked and was sorely disappointed. The service was fine, contrary to an earlier post, but the atmosphere was awful. I went expecting an intimate, loungey jazz club. Instead, it was just like every other bar downtown -- packed with drunk meatheads and drably decorated. Any sense of class or intimacy it might have had was ruined by two enormous plasma TV screens behind the bar, which cast a fluorescent glow over the whole interior. Why even bother calling it a jazz club? Hardly anyone was listening to the (very good) pianist and bassist, plugging away diligently in the corner.

 

This is probably sounding overly harsh but I was expecting more. If they want to be like every other bar, fine -- but don't mislead people by advertising yourself as a classy jazz and tapas place. Ugh. This and the rowdy suburbanites smashing an ice sculpture on E. 4th Street as I walked out left a bad taste in my mouth about the redevelopment of this neighborhood. It's becoming just another playground for the bridge-and-tunnel crowd, like the Flats and the Warehouse District before it. I hope this is just an unruly adolescence that it and other downtown neighborhoods must go through before maturing into more livable, adult places.

 

That is too bad.  I agree, it is impossible now to find a bar, ANY bar without giant TVs, which I just think is completely unnecessary.  I think the management at this place has some problems.  It's too bad because the food is really good and it is such a prime spot.

Does it have a neighborhood bar feel to it?  The kind of place you would feel comfortable walking into in the summer in shorts and a t-shirt?  If so, I am all for it.  I think E 4th is in need of these.  They have enough highend stuff there now.  They need to start catering to the nearby resident and not so much the suburbanite.  The nearby resident does not feel like dressing up or putting make-up on everytime they go out. 

There really aren't that many neighborhood residents that a bar can support itself by catering to them, not the suburbanites.

 

Anyway, wtf is the "bridge and tunnel" crowd?

Anyway, wtf is the "bridge and tunnel" crowd?

 

Its a phrase commonly used in NYC to label (differentiate) those who live in Jersey, Long Island and the outer boros, since they have to take a bridge (in the car) or a tunnel (subway or commuter rails) to get into/out of "the city".

 

Its a way to label wannabe's from outside "the city" who come into "the city" to take advantage of the unique offerings you can't find in the outer boro's or burbs.  Basically, its a way to put down the corny suburanites who want to party in the hip areas of the city.

Kind of what I figured.  Thanks.

yeah I have been slow to warm to e4 b/c you can get very down to earth neighborhood places in oc, tremont, OC and even the Flats (Hoopples, Harbor Inn, Flat iron, in case anyone wonders) For jazzy tunes sans TV, attitude, and jerks, try the VTR (velvet tango room) . Despite all this, my hipper than me neighbors still love going to e4/6th 

Does it have a neighborhood bar feel to it?  The kind of place you would feel comfortable walking into in the summer in shorts and a t-shirt?  If so, I am all for it.  I think E 4th is in need of these.  They have enough highend stuff there now.  They need to start catering to the nearby resident and not so much the suburbanite.  The nearby resident does not feel like dressing up or putting make-up on everytime they go out. 

 

No, Wonder Bar definitely didn't strike me as particularly shorts and t-shirt friendly ... more "hey, look at my striped shirt" crowd.

 

E. 4th Street seems to be drawing very similar clientele to the Warehouse District. Not favoring either spot for nightlife, I haven't really observed, but has anyone seen any impact on the volume of people visiting the Warehouse District for weekend drinks, etc.?

^some of us who grew up here, moved to NYC and then returned have kept sayings like that alive, because they do have some relevance here, albeit a little out of context. 

 

On the neighborhood bar topic, there are still quite a few of them down in the Gateway neighborhood.  You might not find them on E. 4th, but I doubt the Winking Lizard, Rathskellar, Moriarties, or Ontario Street Cafe are going to throw you out for not looking like a dapper dan.

You can always go to Nick's and hang with all the bums handing over their spare change for some rotgut!

if anyone's looking for more of a bar "bar", I always recommend Cleats, at E 2nd and High, behind the greater heights academy.

Moriarty's is the sh!t for sure.  The owner Morgan is a trip, and I think it's one of the best places to grab a Christmas Ale on a chilly night.

Johnny's Little Bar!!

agree.  Now I have a question. Has Johny's closed yet? Little Bar used to get Johnny's prime meat scraps, making Little Bar the winner in my book for best cheese burger. When Johnny's closes, if it has not already, I wonder if the burgers will be as good?

agree.  Now I have a question. Has Johny's closed yet? Little Bar used to get Johnny's prime meat scraps, making Little Bar the winner in my book for best cheese burger. When Johnny's closes, if it has not already, I wonder if the burgers will be as good?

 

Was there just three nights ago -- best dive bar in downtown Cleveland.  And yes they still use Johnny's kitchen for 1/5th the price.  Altought this is W. 6th.  Cleats and that place next to The View are good dive bars near E.4th.

 

agree.  Now I have a question. Has Johny's closed yet? Little Bar used to get Johnny's prime meat scraps, making Little Bar the winner in my book for best cheese burger. When Johnny's closes, if it has not already, I wonder if the burgers will be as good?

 

Johnny's Downtown is closing too?  I remember Johnny's Bistro closing a year or so ago, but I don't recall hearing that Johnny's Downtown was closing as well.  That would kind of stink.

agree.  Now I have a question. Has Johny's closed yet? Little Bar used to get Johnny's prime meat scraps, making Little Bar the winner in my book for best cheese burger. When Johnny's closes, if it has not already, I wonder if the burgers will be as good?

 

Was there just three nights ago -- best dive bar in downtown Cleveland.  And yes they still use Johnny's kitchen for 1/5th the price.  Altought this is W. 6th. Cleats and that place next to The View are good dive bars near E.4th.

 

 

Thank you, I was trying to give and alternative to people who frequent e. 4th. Thinking about it, Cleats is less divey and more sportsy. But their happy is good ($2 23oz drafts) and their menu is pretty tasty sports bar food at a good price.

that place next to The View are good dive bars near E.4th.

 

Nick's

What is all this about Johnny's closing?  I have heard nothing about this and find it hard to believe.  As mentioned above, Johnny's Bistro did close and now it is "Crop" and is owned by the same guys who own Johnnys.

Not sure I'd call it a neighborhood bar, but I don't think you have to dressed up to go into Flannery's...

 

Isn't it pretty obvious that e 4th has been designed from the outset as a "destination" sort of strip, meant to draw in people from the whole area?  HOB, Pickwick (esp the Comedy club part) , Corner Alley are all designed to be draws in and of themselves (that is, rather than just going to an area, you go there to see a band, a comedian or do the bowling thing).  Even Lola fits in to this as destination dining (most people don't just "pop in" for dinner...)  The rest of it seems mainly geared to capture the Gateway and potentially the business lunch crowds. 

 

This doesn't mean it necessarily has to be unlivable or immature.  Suburbanites are people, too :-)  but it clearly is an entertainment district more than a neighborhood, at least at this point.

 

 

I've also heard nothing about Johnny's closing.  Perhaps the poster who mentioned this was confusing Johnny's Bistro with Johnny's proper? (which, as another poster mentioned, did close and is now the wonderful Crop)  As to the scraps and the Little Bar's burgers, I understand they only do that when the scraps are available, which isn't necessarily every day.  Just FYI, especially in light of the most recent ground beef recall (seems like there's one almost every month now).  I'm always on the lookout for a place that grinds their own beef for burgers for this very reason.

Does anyone know when E. 4th will reopen to traffic?  I thought the patio fences were supposed to some down after October and the street would reopen until the spring.  Or has that changed?

They were taking the fences down today when I walked by today...

They've been coming down little by little.  I don't think anyone knows for sure when they will all be down.  Sometimes things move strangely on East 4th.  They seem to send their crew from one thing to another willy-nilly, but I am sure there is a logic to it if we knew the details.

Does anyone know when E. 4th will reopen to traffic?  I thought the patio fences were supposed to some down after October and the street would reopen until the spring.  Or has that changed?

 

I say: good riddance to cars thru E. 4th-- who needs them... but if that's changing...  What's even more strange is that, as of this weekend, there were still patio chairs & tables... caked with light snow!

The amazing success of E. 4th, even in its still-unfinished state, screams for some modicum of retail along either nearby Euclid or Prospect -- and I don't mean the little bit of retail in the 3 nearby historic malls... Most notably, I can't believe nothing's going on in still hulking-yet-beautiful May's after all these years (now, nearly 2 decades of that huge familiar terracotta facade ... Can't the city fathers come up w/ something for this space?  Wouldn't it be great for E. 4th to feed off this?  Hell, I'll take a Target, or even a K-Mart or Marshalls or Burlington Coat or... you get the picture; ANYTHING accept what we now have which is zippo.

 

We're so damn slow to act in this town and, more often than not, we REact.  Seems, as usual, we've thrown all our eggs in the Pesht basket and now that Stark seems dragging along -- as much slowed by the poor housing market as anything -- that may not be happening anytime soon... Hello!  Can't we get Frank and/or Cimperman going here?  ... somebody!

Are you done?  The hysterics get a little old.

^hysterics?  Guess you enjoy mediocrity.

clvlndr, I understand where you're coming from, but you make it seem as though the mayor can just place a target or best buy or other department store in the May Company Building. You can't force retailers to go somewhere, and truthfully if the location were hot there would already be a store in there.

 

There were plans for it right? Wasn't it supposed to be some tele-com center or dot-com center, but plans fell apart with in the whole dot-com bust. Downtown Cleveland needs a population base of 25,000 as has been said many times here, before it can support that type of retail.

 

I don't think Stark is willfully dragging his feet, but things like this take time and I'm sure he is having to convince a lot of people, namely banks his project can work.

It took what, 20-30 years for downtown to fall to what it was in the early 90's. It may take just as long to build it back up, you can't build a city in a year.

^hysterics?  Guess you enjoy mediocrity.

 

No, he called it right. They're hysterics that echo a lot of our sentiments, but they're hysterics nonetheless.

Yes, clvndr, I love mediocrity.  I hope May Co. stays vacant forever.  I like walking by it on a daily basis and looking into the gutted interior.  That makes me happy.  I also love the parking lots in the Warehouse District.  All of this is obviously true because I'm not screaming "won't somebody do something!" like a goddam idiot and making foolish assumptions about where the City is putting it's resources without a shred of evidence of what is really going on.

^You and your "can't do" attitude ;-)

i think "we" just get sick of explaining why big box retailer won't go in a space with poor truck access, floorplates, street traffic, etc etc.

^In fairness, NYC has taught me you can stick big box stores in pretty urban locations.  There are parts of Manhattan with tenant mixes that could be confused with SYC.

 

But I don't think there's any mystery why these stores aren't flocking to downtown given the retail climate and transportation patterns, and I don't we can blame "lack of leadership" for that exactly.  Lamenting the facts is one thing, but this blame thing is kind of a dead end.

^In fairness, NYC has taught me you can stick big box stores in pretty urban locations.  There are parts of Manhattan with tenant mixes that could be confused with SYC.

 

and i also get sick of responding about the property values, density, demand etc and difference between Cleveland and CHI&NYC

No argument there.

And since when is the May Co. vacant anyway? It's got more than 1,000 office workers in there for Key Corp. I'll bet that's at least equal to the number of employees May Co. had in there during its last decade at that location. I'd be interested to also see what their employee incomes are in comparison to what May had, and thus their payroll tax contributions to the city.

 

But why do people quickly disregard that? Does the ghost of May Co. loom so large that it will forever cast a shadow over anything that goes in that building, short of another department store??

 

Thus, I think I've got a solution for the Mafia... If they ever want to disappear from sight yet keep operating, open an office building for corporate crime in the May Co. (or even in the old Higbee's, Halle's or Sterling-Linder). Clevelanders seem so pre-occupied with their past that they won't be able to see the offices put in those revered buildings regardless of whose offices they are.

It may be the cavernous 25' tall vacant first floor that everyone complains about.

yeah for gosh sakes I could see a Banana Republic in there.

yeah for gosh sakes I could see a Banana Republic in there.

 

i know market conditions aren't the same, but Gap Inc. might have a bad taste in their mouth from when their last time around downtown.

I still see a uber-sports bar there, like an ESPN Sportzone.  The Prospect entrance would be just as important (because of Gateway) as the Euclid Ave entrance.

 

Right now, with LeBron and the Indians, Gateway is a year round attraction.  It has to make more financial sense now than before LeBron.

 

maybe that would just invite more of the bridge, tunnel and coal miner crowd that was discussed earlier in the thread       :-D

Yes, clvndr, I love mediocrity.  I hope May Co. stays vacant forever.  I like walking by it on a daily basis and looking into the gutted interior.  That makes me happy.  I also love the parking lots in the Warehouse District.  All of this is obviously true because I'm not screaming "won't somebody do something!" like a goddam idiot and making foolish assumptions about where the City is putting it's resources without a shred of evidence of what is really going on.

 

If so much is being done, where are the results?  The building was sold for $10M about a year ago yet nothing, public anyway, has happened.  I have a bit more knowledge and experience about what goes on in the city than do you, I'm sure... and connections.  You don't know me or what I know ...  So before you assume -- probably in La-La land that someting is happening by dint of silence, consider first that it's probably not.  That's the way it is here, and it's not going to change anytime soon.   And maybe if people like you focus on ideas rather than attack the speaker, things would be more productive around here and not the way they are; folks like you are a symptom of the problem... And in case actually tried to read what I said, I gave allowance for the stagnant economy for Stark and for anyone else, while at the same time voiced the idea that someone consider something on not such a grand scale, ... as Clevelanders are wont to do...  And, btw, in case you noticed, this is a forum.  I don't know who you are or who you think you are, but people are allowed to voice their opinions whether you happen to like them or not.

^Let me apologize ahead of time to the rest of you for the rant.  Not my style, but sometimes...

 

KJP, I'm aware May's isn't totally vacant, and I overreached on that... My only original point was to raise, once again, the idea of retail there, though scaled down from what me and others had originally tossed around.  I know it's been raised many times, but I thought it needed to be revisited, esp in light of my tremendous admiration -- along with, I'm sure everybody here -- of E. 4th and desire to see it hit its stride.

"And, btw, in case you noticed, this is a forum.  I don't know who you are or who you think you are, but people are allowed to voice their opinions whether you happen to like them or not."

 

Apparently I need to remind people that participation in this forum is a privilege, not a right. And you should apologize to X because as you know, that's not how we talk to each other here. He made a very valid point - he might care deeply, but he doesn't need to constantly rant and rave about something to show it. Don't worry, I edited your thread appropriately but consider this a warning.

I still see a uber-sports bar there, like an ESPN Sportzone.  The Prospect entrance would be just as important (because of Gateway) as the Euclid Ave entrance.

 

Right now, with LeBron and the Indians, Gateway is a year round attraction.  It has to make more financial sense now than before LeBron.

 

maybe that would just invite more of the bridge, tunnel and coal miner crowd that was discussed earlier in the thread       :-D

 

I never thought about that.  Probably because I generally loathe sports except for IndyCar racing, but this is actually a really good idea now that I think of it.  It seems EVERYONE here is rabid about sports and if this was done right and focused on the local teams as well as having a spot for rotating information related to current things in town like those X games or whater that's called, and the IndyCar race and things of that nature, I actually would refer people there.

 

Not much to be done with the idea I suppose, but it is a good one.

This recent portion of this thread has to be my least favorite parts of this forum.  Besides the obvious defensive nature that people get when they feel their point isn't being viewed fairly, I also dislike the disconnect from reality a lot of people on here have.  Do I want any building to be empty in Cleveland?  Of course not.  Do I want Cleveland to be a thriving, vibrant downtown, full of residents and growing industry?  Of course I do.

 

However, with that being said, it's irrational to think that every building that is purchased will be immediately rehabbed.  Or any empty lot will have something built on it within months. 

KStay2?

I still see a uber-sports bar there, like an ESPN Sportzone.  The Prospect entrance would be just as important (because of Gateway) as the Euclid Ave entrance.

 

Right now, with LeBron and the Indians, Gateway is a year round attraction.  It has to make more financial sense now than before LeBron.

 

maybe that would just invite more of the bridge, tunnel and coal miner crowd that was discussed earlier in the thread       :-D

 

I would like to see something along the lines of retail go in this building.  It seems that the themed retaurant concept around E4th is not overdone, but getting there (of that makes sense).  Its time for a mix.  I would like to see apartments on the upper floors renting from$750 to $1200 with the ground floor and second open for a retail tenant.  Granted, we still have all the retail space in 515 for grabs, but I really think alot of people are playing the wait and see game with the ECP.  I also think alot of people are playing that game with Pesht and the FEB project.  They know if those come to fruition, they probably have better chances there than anywhere else.  I really think if one of those projects got cancelled, you would have alot of new retail news along Euclid.  Kind of a win win situation.

Didn't someone mention ages ago seeing plans for an ESPN zone somewhere in the Terminal Tower complex on the ground level? If I recall, it sounded rather definite that something like that was being planned just a block southwest of May Co.