^ Yeah, just to have some service that isn't in the middle of the night would be pretty great.

I hope you will all read and share this fine article sometime soon. It will open your eyes to the horror show that the nation's railroads have become that affects our ability to restore passenger rail, promote greater economic fairness and improve the economic fortunes in more places in America that have increasingly been left behind since 1980....

 

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/08/09/amtrak-joe-vs-the-modern-robber-barons/

 

On 7/30/2021 at 4:12 PM, mu2010 said:

^ Yeah, just to have some service that isn't in the middle of the night would be pretty great.

Yep, I had to do that Sunday morning. 

BIPARTISAN BILL, WHILE WELCOME, FALLS SHORT

https://railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/statement-on-senate-passage-of-infrastructure-investment-jobs-act/

@KJP What's your interpretation for what this means for expanding Amtrak service and routes within Ohio?   I wasn't able to parse much detail out of their summary.   Thanks! 

13 minutes ago, DO_Summers said:

@KJP What's your interpretation for what this means for expanding Amtrak service and routes within Ohio?   I wasn't able to parse much detail out of their summary.   Thanks! 

 

Too soon to know. A conference committee must now resolve the differences between the House and Senate versions. The key will be whether Amtrak or private sector operators can apply for federal capital expansion funds or if it will have to be requested by a state. If Amtrak/private operators can apply for expansion funds, depending on how much will actually be available through appropriations yet to occur, then that's good. If the funds have to be requested through a state, then we will be left behind here in Ohio. Although -- there's a small chance that we could get expanded service if one or more MPOs in Ohio partner with another state on an interstate route, such as Chicago-Cleveland or Chicago-Columbus or Chicago-Cincinnati, with funding applications made through the Illinois DOT, for example. But those are complicated to organize and to sustain over the long-term -- which is why I would like to see the federal government take the lead on interstate routes. I seem to recall reading somewhere about that......

On 8/10/2021 at 11:10 AM, KJP said:

I hope you will all read and share this fine article sometime soon. It will open your eyes to the horror show that the nation's railroads have become that affects our ability to restore passenger rail, promote greater economic fairness and improve the economic fortunes in more places in America that have increasingly been left behind since 1980....

 

https://washingtonmonthly.com/2021/08/09/amtrak-joe-vs-the-modern-robber-barons/

 

Thanks for that.  Great summary of how we got here.  And somewhat depressing the hurdles to be overcome.

 

I think I'm probably in favor of nationalizing rail rights of way.  Let the feds maintain the rails, like they do the highways, and possibly the control, like the air traffic control system, and leave private carriers to operate the trains.  That's another high hurdle, however.  The states like the property tax and too many people fear the "socialism" bogeyman, even though the freight companies are making every appearance of wanting to shed those assets.

2 hours ago, Foraker said:

Thanks for that.  Great summary of how we got here.  And somewhat depressing the hurdles to be overcome.

 

I think I'm probably in favor of nationalizing rail rights of way.  Let the feds maintain the rails, like they do the highways, and possibly the control, like the air traffic control system, and leave private carriers to operate the trains.  That's another high hurdle, however.  The states like the property tax and too many people fear the "socialism" bogeyman, even though the freight companies are making every appearance of wanting to shed those assets.

 

It sure would be an eye-opener to a lot of people as to how different the right-of-way and financing responsibilities are among the various modes of transportation and why the freight railroads one of the last bastions of 19th century capitalism left on this earth. 

 

BTW, look for an article soon from the PD/Cle.com on infrastructure funding and some info about NOACA, other MPOs, Rep. Kaptur and others joining forces on development Cleveland-Chicago Amtrak service.

Below is a link a rebuttal (written by an energetic young advocate out West named Dan Bilka) to Steve Rattner's arrogant, elitist, anti-rail-in-flyover-country Op-Ed from July 1.  Dan did a really nice job. 

 

Yes Steven Rattner, Wyoming Needs Passenger Trains

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/yes-steven-rattner-wyoming-needs-passenger-trains/

"Amtrak" Al Mladineo has died.  I remember him as a substitute teacher at my high school.  I always liked when he filled in because he would usually talk about trains or another topic of interest instead of the subject matter.

 

https://obits.cleveland.com/us/obituaries/cleveland/name/albert-mladineo-obituary?pid=200120711

 

Edited September 14, 20213 yr by LibertyBlvd

43 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

"Amtrak" Al Mladineo has died.  I remember him as a substitute teacher at my high school.  I always liked when he filled in because he would usually talk about trains or another topic of interest instead of the subject matter.

 

https://obits.cleveland.com/us/obituaries/cleveland/name/albert-mladineo-obituary?pid=200120711

 

More about Al for those who don't know

https://www.cleveland.com/faces-of-the-suns/2014/06/parma_man_and_amtrak_al_keep_t.html

In October 1983, I was 16 years old and went with my father to a model train show at Great Northern Mall. I came across a display table of newsletters and membership brochures for the Ohio and National Associations of Railroad Passengers. Two men in their 40s were staffing that table...Jim Stevenson and "Amtrak Al" Mladineo. I joined both organizations, the Ohio one now does business as All Aboard Ohio. So if you want to blame someone for my nearly 40 years of rail/transit advocacy, blame it on Jim, Amtrak Al and many others who are no longer with us (thankfully Jim is still around).

Awful Amtrak news from Montana:

 

At least 3 dead after Amtrak train derails in rural Montana

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/09/25/amtrak-train-derails-montana/

 

At least three people were killed after an Amtrak passenger train carrying more than 150 people derailed in northern Montana on Saturday, leaving a number of people injured, officials said. An employee at the Liberty County Sheriff’s Office said that at least three people were killed, but said she could not elaborate, as emergency officials were dealing with a “crisis” in the aftermath of the derailment. Five train cars derailed about 4 p.m. local time near Joplin, Mont., nearly 200 miles north of Helena, said Kimberly Woods, an Amtrak spokeswoman. There were about 147 passengers and 13 crew members on the train, Woods said, “with injuries reported.” She did not specify how many people were injured.

 

53 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Awful Amtrak news from Montana:

 

At least 3 dead after Amtrak train derails in rural Montana

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2021/09/25/amtrak-train-derails-montana/

 

At least three people were killed after an Amtrak passenger train carrying more than 150 people derailed in northern Montana on Saturday, leaving a number of people injured, officials said. An employee at the Liberty County Sheriff’s Office said that at least three people were killed, but said she could not elaborate, as emergency officials were dealing with a “crisis” in the aftermath of the derailment. Five train cars derailed about 4 p.m. local time near Joplin, Mont., nearly 200 miles north of Helena, said Kimberly Woods, an Amtrak spokeswoman. There were about 147 passengers and 13 crew members on the train, Woods said, “with injuries reported.” She did not specify how many people were injured.

 

Photos:

 

More pictures:

 

 

 

 

apparently not everybody is impressed with Moynihan Train Hall  Admittedly it is a bit awkward, with passengers not knowing if they should go to the old Penn Station or here. Just wait until the food court opens🤔

 

 

Edited October 12, 20213 yr by eastvillagedon

The writer sounds like a disgruntled Long Island Railroad passenger. When you read it from that perspective, the article makes a lot more sense. There is seating and amenities for Amtrak passengers. If he wants to be mad at somebody, be mad at the MTA.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

The writer sounds like a disgruntled Long Island Railroad passenger. When you read it from that perspective, the article makes a lot more sense. There is seating and amenities for Amtrak passengers. If he wants to be mad at somebody, be mad at the MTA.

 

There was never a waiting room for LIRR passengers in the years I've been using it - just a large, mostly friendly scrum near the ticket windows. 

On 10/12/2021 at 4:20 PM, Dougal said:

 

There was never a waiting room for LIRR passengers in the years I've been using it - just a large, mostly friendly scrum near the ticket windows. 

 

There is a small waiting room around the ticket windows, with restrooms on either side.  Not sure where anything will be once the station complex construction is complete.

1 hour ago, MyTwoSense said:

 

There is a small waiting room around the ticket windows, with restrooms on either side.  Not sure where anything will be once the station complex construction is complete.

They hide it nicely.  🙂  I've only ever found the Amtrak one.

41 minutes ago, Dougal said:

They hide it nicely.  🙂  I've only ever found the Amtrak one.

I think people have missed it because there is always a crush/massive group of people waiting to descend down the various stairsways, to platforms, directly in front of the LIRR waiting room.

if you are not in the lirr scum watching the boards you are going to miss your train.

 

at least in the before times rush hours, not sure now.

 

i have only taken a couple lirr trips since the pandemic and it was quiet.

A wonderful video that captures America's beauty

 

 

Ohio could be doing this, but it's interested only in more roads, cookie-cutter subdivisions and strip malls....

 

 

10/25/2021
Rail News: Amtrak

Amtrak breaks ground on Baltimore Penn Station project

 

Amtrak, federal and local officials last week held a groundbreaking ceremony to mark the start of the redevelopment of Baltimore Penn Station.

 

The project — which includes a platform expansion — is part of Amtrak’s $150 million investment to improve the rider experience and grow ridership.

 

"In partnership with Penn Station Partners, we are set to transform Penn Station into a premier regional transportation hub," said Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn in a press release. "This construction will serve as the catalyst to transform surrounding vacant land already owned by Amtrak into a mixed-use, transit-oriented development with up to one million square feet of new office, retail and residential space."

 

MORE:

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/amtrak/news/Amtrak-breaks-ground-on-Baltimore-Penn-Station-project--65016

 

That is MUCH needed.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

"In partnership with Penn Station Partners, we are set to transform Penn Station into a premier regional transportation hub," said Amtrak CEO Bill Flynn in a press release. "This construction will serve as the catalyst to transform surrounding vacant land already owned by Amtrak into a mixed-use, transit-oriented development with up to one million square feet of new office, retail and residential space."

 

Does Amtrak own any land in Ohio that they could be encouraged to develop?

 

Yes, but not much. They own some land near the Cleveland Amtrak station and at the former East 26th Street Yard south of South Marginal Road.

 

Point is they won't acquire more land or make any investment here until Congress changes federal like we hoped they would in Biden's infrastructure plan. Or Ohio purchases service from Amtrak.

 

 

https://thehill.com/policy/transportation/railroads/580482-amtrak-chief-lists-cities-likely-to-benefit-from?fbclid=IwAR1Y3FEFY3I21B32bn42CoHleYntRfgk_IwC3xIdtI1-e__Fp0mAkmhNmzs

 

Quote

Amtrak's CEO Bill Flynn said that funding from the $1.2 infrastructure bill that passed on Friday would spur the largest expansion in the railroad's history, outlining some of the cities likely to see increased service. 

 

"Phoenix to Tucson is a great example," Flynn said in an interview with "Axios on HBO" of the new routes that Amtrak intended to introduce. "Cleveland, Columbus, Dayton, Cincinnati. Los Angeles to Las Vegas. Those are essentially new routes where service practically does not exist today."

 

Is it still setup so that Ohio would specifically have to request a contract with Amtrak for the increase service and routes?

14 minutes ago, Dev said:

Is it still setup so that Ohio would specifically have to request a contract with Amtrak for the increase service and routes?

 

Yes. The House version had it set up so Amtrak could initiate new services without it having an agreement in place with a state to sustain the services long term. But the Senate version requires the FRA to determine which routes/corridors are priorities for addition/expansion and to require Amtrak to have service-sustaining agreements with states in place before federal capital improvement grants can be awarded. The Senate version won out.

 

In its newly released report, the FRA considers 3C to be a small-market/future corridor: https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/2021-10/Final Report-MWRRP with Appendices PDFa.pdf

 

21 minutes ago, KJP said:

.The Senate version won out.

 

In its newly released report, the FRA considers 3C to be a small-market/future corridor:

so… not good news for Ohio?

Obviously those on a site called UrbanOhio will be biased, but I just don't understand how connecting 3 cities with over 2million metro each is "small-market/future corridor". We don't currently have a any rail service so of course our rail travel numbers don't stack up well to existing corridors. It's like when no one will hire you out of school because you don't have experience but you can't gain experience because no one will hire you. 

 

i also don't understand how the state was not ready to go with the ask for this. seems like a bad case of snooze ya looze. it's not a woman's body or the gays, so this gov couldn't care less.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Yes. The House version had it set up so Amtrak could initiate new services without it having an agreement in place with a state to sustain the services long term. But the Senate version requires the FRA to determine which routes/corridors are priorities for addition/expansion and to require Amtrak to have service-sustaining agreements with states in place before federal capital improvement grants can be awarded. The Senate version won out.

 

In its newly released report, the FRA considers 3C to be a small-market/future corridor: https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/2021-10/Final Report-MWRRP with Appendices PDFa.pdf

 

 

What about improving existing services? Could Amtrak increase the frequency of say, the Cardinal or Lakeshore routes on their own? Obviously the are not priorities at the moment but just checking if it's an even option.

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

i also don't understand how the state was not ready to go with the ask for this. seems like a bad case of snooze ya looze. it's not a woman's body or the gays, so this gov couldn't care less.

 

No one in state government cares. Even when the Dems were in charge, they sheepishly did studies but were too scared to act on them. The only time they tried was when Obama offered a 100 percent federal grant and they threw together a funding-ready plan at the last minute without building the political constituency for it first.

 

4 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

What about improving existing services? Could Amtrak increase the frequency of say, the Cardinal or Lakeshore routes on their own? Obviously the are not priorities at the moment but just checking if it's an even option.

 

They can do anything as long as it doesn't need more operating subsidy. But any expanded service will need operating subsidy unless its the Northeast Corridor or it's a new, very frequent and fast service like Brightline that's sustained by station-area development rather than state subsidies. Both of those get capital construction subsidies which are viewed more favorably, especially by GOPers.

 

For routes of less than 750 miles, states, groups of states or state-chartered agencies would need to provide the operating subsidies. Federal policy is pretty much silent on expanding service on routes longer than 750 miles. So not only is there no funding for it, the feds haven't even considered it.

51 minutes ago, KJP said:

For routes of less than 750 miles, states, groups of states or state-chartered agencies would need to provide the operating subsidies. Federal policy is pretty much silent on expanding service on routes longer than 750 miles. So not only is there no funding for it, the feds haven't even considered it.

 

You have decades of experience seeing opportunities come and go because of lack of political will in Ohio, but would MPOs fall in state-chartered agencies? Seems that MORPC doesn't like the lack of rail in Columbus and that NOACA at least virtue signals an interest in multimodal planning activities, even if they're overly keen to focus on hyperloop planning and not acting on tangible HSR. Surely there is more appetite between MPOs than the statehouse even if it is still a low level.

4 hours ago, infrafreak said:

 

You have decades of experience seeing opportunities come and go because of lack of political will in Ohio, but would MPOs fall in state-chartered agencies? Seems that MORPC doesn't like the lack of rail in Columbus and that NOACA at least virtue signals an interest in multimodal planning activities, even if they're overly keen to focus on hyperloop planning and not acting on tangible HSR. Surely there is more appetite between MPOs than the statehouse even if it is still a low level.

 

Yes, which is why I'm no longer doing it. AAO doesn't need a doubter/pessimist like me to be their spokesman anymore. I didn't used to be a doubter/pessimist. But I'm obviously a slow learner by spending 38 years of my life trying to bring more passenger trains into a state that doesn't want them.

 

So to stay pessimism-free in this paragraph -- MPOs are not state-chartered agencies. A state-chartered agency is the San Joaquin Joint Powers Authority (chartered by state of California), the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (chartered by state of Maine) or the Northern Lights Express Alliance (chartered by the state of Minnesota). If most/all of the MPOs between Chicago and Cleveland formed an alliance and had one or more states charter them via legislation, then they would be such an agency. So the state of Ohio would have to be involved somehow and at some point to either empower an agency to do passenger rail development or take it upon themselves through ODOT/ORDC's existing passenger rail development powers. The MPOs can do the planning part right now. But sustaining a new service with millions of dollars of operating subsidy per year is beyond their financial capacity, let alone their legal capacity.

 

Some interesting background... In 2014 I got the MPOs in Cleveland, Sandusky/Erie County and Toledo to form the Northern Ohio Rail Alliance (NORA) to seek funding for passenger rail planning and development. There was a 2009 federal earmark of $938,300 for Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit passenger rail planning that Rep. Marcy Kaptur secured for ODOT. But after Kasich defeated Strickland, ODOT sat on the earmark. We tried to get it released to NORA to start the planning work but ODOT refused to release the earmark because they said it would be pointless. In their view, there was never going to be any passenger rail expansion in Ohio, so why plan for it? Congress was forcing all earmark recipients to either use them, reallocate them or lose them. So I asked ODOT/ORDC and Rep. Kaptur if they would be willing to release the earmark for state-of-good-repair/ADA compliance work at the Toledo Amtrak station since it was an existing service. They agreed. I got the Toledo/Lucas County Port Authority (which owns the Toledo Amtrak station) to apply to the ORDC for the earmark. They did, they won it and they used it as part of a $1.2 million reconstruction and resurfacing of the trackside platforms at Toledo. NOACA was pissed at me. They felt they could convince ODOT to release it for their planning. I didn't think we had enough time.

 

Guess what? That $938,300 was the single-largest passenger rail capital improvement authorized by the State of Ohio in the Amtrak era (since 1971). That's why I remember that dollar figure. And the source of that money wasn't even state of Ohio funding. It was just a pass-through from the feds.

 

People on social media got mad at me for saying that this Senate-adopted version of infrastructure bill would not benefit Ohio. They said I was the reason Ohio didn't have trains because I couldn't build a coalition. Frustrated, I tore into them. They didn't deserve it. They didn't know any better. But AAO needed someone who wasn't burnt out, bitter and bruised after decades of trying to go around, over or through the old, thick, heavy, towering, cold stone wall that is the State of Ohio.

^Thanks. I missed that exchange and I was wondering what had happened. If we ever get this done here you will have had a big part in it and I appreciate your efforts. 

 

55 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Yes, which is why I'm no longer doing it. AAO doesn't need a doubter/pessimist like me to be their spokesman anymore. I didn't used to be a doubter/pessimist. But I'm obviously a slow learner by spending 38 years of my life trying to bring more passenger trains into a state that doesn't want them.

 

So to stay pessimism-free in this paragraph -- MPOs are not state-chartered agencies. A state-chartered agency is the San Joaquin Joint Powers Authority (chartered by state of California), the Northern New England Passenger Rail Authority (chartered by state of Maine) or the Northern Lights Express Alliance (chartered by the state of Minnesota). If most/all of the MPOs between Chicago and Cleveland formed an alliance and had one or more states charter them via legislation, then they would be such an agency. So the state of Ohio would have to be involved somehow and at some point to either empower an agency to do passenger rail development or take it upon themselves through ODOT/ORDC's existing passenger rail development powers. The MPOs can do the planning part right now. But sustaining a new service with millions of dollars of operating subsidy per year is beyond their financial capacity, let alone their legal capacity.

 

Some interesting background... In 2014 I got the MPOs in Cleveland, Sandusky/Erie County and Toledo to form the Northern Ohio Rail Alliance (NORA) to seek funding for passenger rail planning and development. There was a 2009 federal earmark of $938,300 for Cleveland-Toledo-Detroit passenger rail planning that Rep. Marcy Kaptur secured for ODOT. But after Kasich defeated Strickland, ODOT sat on the earmark. We tried to get it released to NORA to start the planning work but ODOT refused to release the earmark because they said it would be pointless. In their view, there was never going to be any passenger rail expansion in Ohio, so why plan for it? Congress was forcing all earmark recipients to either use them, reallocate them or lose them. So I asked ODOT/ORDC and Rep. Kaptur if they would be willing to release the earmark for state-of-good-repair/ADA compliance work at the Toledo Amtrak station since it was an existing service. They agreed. I got the Toledo/Lucas County Port Authority (which owns the Toledo Amtrak station) to apply to the ORDC for the earmark. They did, they won it and they used it as part of a $1.2 million reconstruction and resurfacing of the trackside platforms at Toledo. NOACA was pissed at me. They felt they could convince ODOT to release it for their planning. I didn't think we had enough time.

 

Guess what? That $938,300 was the single-largest passenger rail capital improvement authorized by the State of Ohio in the Amtrak era (since 1971). That's why I remember that dollar figure. And the source of that money wasn't even state of Ohio funding. It was just a pass-through from the feds.

 

People on social media got mad at me for saying that this Senate-adopted version of infrastructure bill would not benefit Ohio. They said I was the reason Ohio didn't have trains because I couldn't build a coalition. Frustrated, I tore into them. They didn't deserve it. They didn't know any better. But AAO needed someone who wasn't burnt out, bitter and bruised after decades of trying to go around, over or through the old, thick, heavy, towering, cold stone wall that is the State of Ohio.

 

Yeah man, I'm already burnt out on My Thing and it's only been 11 years. It's not because I don't have the endurance for it -- it's just too much frustration having the secondary market (and increasingly, the primary market as well) have it's near-daily whims with my business. When you are at the top of an organization you realize that the things that affect your work most are far bigger than you and an enormous amount of things are out of your hands. You feel like you have no control.

if the state wont act then the marketing has to be toward building coaltions in the business world to speak up. at least signing screeds imploring ohio government to seek rail services. i would think that at the very least any business along a route would be err, on board. local city governments as well. thats a harder, bottom up approach for sure, but it seems thats what it has to be for now … until enough rail-friendly states blow by ohio economically for ohio state gov to wake up. frustrating indeed!

50 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

if the state wont act then the marketing has to be toward building coaltions in the business world to speak up. at least signing screeds imploring ohio government to seek rail services. i would think that at the very least any business along a route would be err, on board. local city governments as well. thats a harder, bottom up approach for sure, but it seems thats what it has to be for now … until enough rail-friendly states blow by ohio economically for ohio state gov to wake up. frustrating indeed!

 

Cities have generally supported our efforts however businesses have not. When we approached chambers of commerce they responded that they're not hearing from their members a desire for passenger rail service. Of course not...why would anyone demand rail service when it is so far out of the public's awareness here in Ohio? It's an abstract concept to an Ohioan. Most Ohio cities have been without trains for 40-50 years and those that do have them don't know they exist because they "serve" cities only in the middle of the night so they may as well not exist. It takes having some usable trains to get even better trains. So we've tried to get some businesses to put pressure on their chambers but with scattered success, which is to say the end results were insufficient.

aww man that is frustrating.

 

it might be better to back funding a good pr or lobbying firm for now. and run as many demonstrations as possible. 

 

maddening because ohio used to be big in rail transit way back when and other states are running with it today. people have to care and take interest tho.

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Cities have generally supported our efforts however businesses have not. When we approached chambers of commerce they responded that they're not hearing from their members a desire for passenger rail service.

Maybe a more narrowly targeted business market would work. Ultimate Air Shuttle has said that the largest share of its BKL-LUK flying relies on Cleveland and Cincinnati lawyers flying to appellate and district court cases in the other city.  I could imagine a similar "legal" market could exist for Cleveland and Cincinnati to Columbus and back by rail.  If train + taxi can offer more convenience (and closely competitive times) than driving, lawyers will flock to it, since they are typically not budget-motivated.

another thing i find troubling -- as it doesn't seem to exist in ohio -- or at least i am unaware -- is for motivated people to build an independent website or blog or something for current public transit riders. that is, strictly for ridership advocacy news. for city and state wide transit service alerts, news, dreams and wishes and the like.

 

for example:

 

straphangers org is longtime nyc version:

https://www.straphangers.org/

 

here is another example, the seattle transit riders union:

https://transitriders.org/

 

^ and make no mistake they are politically active --

TRU 2021 General Election Endorsements

October 14, 2021

Here is who we recommend voting for in the 2021 General Election:

 

another one -- milwaukee version:

https://www.transitridersunion.org/about

 

 

etc, etc -- ohio amtrak and public transit users and fans need to step up with this!

 

26 minutes ago, Dougal said:

Maybe a more narrowly targeted business market would work. Ultimate Air Shuttle has said that the largest share of its BKL-LUK flying relies on Cleveland and Cincinnati lawyers flying to appellate and district court cases in the other city.  I could imagine a similar "legal" market could exist for Cleveland and Cincinnati to Columbus and back by rail.  If train + taxi can offer more convenience (and closely competitive times) than driving, lawyers will flock to it, since they are typically not budget-motivated.

If it was high-speed rail, absolutely. However, if it’s Amtrak or anything else similar to the original Ohio Hub 3C&D proposal, it wouldn’t be fast enough on CLE-Cin to be competitive w flying for the legal crowd. (It probably would be for CLE-Cbus, especially since primary competition would be driving.) I want to emphasize that I think conventional rail would still be worth it, I just don’t think that’s your target customer. 
 

To me, the ideal thing that could happen would be for someone to convince Dan Gilbert that a great project to secure his legacy would be a HSR ‘T’ connecting Detroit to CLE and Chicago. Financially it would pay for itself in 10-20 years via operating profit, but it would also dramatically increase the value of the real estate he holds in Detroit and CLE. It would be a fine legacy project due to the massive reduction of carbon emissions that would result, plus the wonderful impact on his hometown overall. Once you have successful HSR that many Americans can experience, it gets much easier to fund other HSR projects. Maybe play the ego thing: “look how smart you’ll look while all these other billionaires watch their money disappear into hyperloop nonsense while you’ve got a profitable, climate saving legacy-project.”

 

Can we get Gilbert connected with Brightline or the Texas HSR people?

1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

If it was high-speed rail, absolutely. However, if it’s Amtrak or anything else similar to the original Ohio Hub 3C&D proposal, it wouldn’t be fast enough on CLE-Cin to be competitive w flying for the legal crowd. (It probably would be for CLE-Cbus, especially since primary competition would be driving.) I want to emphasize that I think conventional rail would still be worth it, I just don’t think that’s your target customer.

I guess I didn't sufficiently emphasize that I specifically meant the Columbus market to and from the other C's+D using 79mph trains. If the times can be 2 hours or less with no more than 2 intermediate stops, I think those trains would see good ridership - probably enough to support a business class car.

I have always felt that one of the biggest impediments/challenges with rail between the three Cs is that none of them have sufficiently developed public transportation systems (especially rail which out of towners tend to feel more comfortable using than buses because they definitely know where it is going) compared to other "rail cities".  Once you are in town you want to be able to get around quickly and easily.  It sort of defeats the purpose of the rail trip if once in Columbus I have to rent a car to get around (why not just drive in the first place) or spend a fortune on Ubers and/or taxis.  When I am in Chicago or NYC I use public transportation 90% of the time so I would have no trouble taking a rail trip to either city (except for the fact that it leaves Cleveland in the middle of the night).  I don't know if I could say that about Cincy or Columbus,

13 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I have always felt that one of the biggest impediments/challenges with rail between the three Cs is that none of them have sufficiently developed public transportation systems (especially rail which out of towners tend to feel more comfortable using than buses because they definitely know where it is going) compared to other "rail cities".  Once you are in town you want to be able to get around quickly and easily.  It sort of defeats the purpose of the rail trip if once in Columbus I have to rent a car to get around (why not just drive in the first place) or spend a fortune on Ubers and/or taxis.  When I am in Chicago or NYC I use public transportation 90% of the time so I would have no trouble taking a rail trip to either city (except for the fact that it leaves Cleveland in the middle of the night).  I don't know if I could say that about Cincy or Columbus,

 

The biggest challenge would be getting the state to fund a line that serves only those three cities.

There's plenty of powerful state legislators who would insist on more stops.  Which would slow the whole thing down quite a bit.