Amtrak seems to want to change federal law so that it can chop up the national system trains and run multiple daily trains per day. Unfortunately that's using Peter to pay Paul and it also requires Amtrak to turn to the States to fund these trains. Under federal law all train routes under 750 miles must be funded by the States. I don't think Ohio is ready to support passenger rail. We should have state-supported AND national system trains. 

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Amtrak seems to want to change federal law so that it can chop up the national system trains and run multiple daily trains per day. Unfortunately that's using Peter to pay Paul and it also requires Amtrak to turn to the States to fund these trains. Under federal law all train routes under 750 miles must be funded by the States. I don't think Ohio is ready to support passenger rail. We should have state-supported AND national system trains. 

 

So the main reason trains leave CLE at 3am is because they're part of an extended Chicago to NYC or Chicago to DC route? If the route were just split for CLE to Chicago, would daytime service be feasible or would existing freight traffic on the route prevent that?

 

I love visiting CLE but frustrating my options from Chicago are: 6+ hr drive (if I owned a car), <1 hr flight that can run around $200-300 RT and with any delay time savings are lost, 6.5 hr Megabus, 7+ hr Amtrak that simulates jet lag on the return trip to Chicago. I understand why Chicagoans bypass Ohio cities all together as time and money can be spent going elsewhere.

5 hours ago, flee2thecleve14 said:

 

So the main reason trains leave CLE at 3am is because they're part of an extended Chicago to NYC or Chicago to DC route? If the route were just split for CLE to Chicago, would daytime service be feasible or would existing freight traffic on the route prevent that?

 

 

The only thing preventing it is the State of Ohio and the lack of a political constituency for Ohio purchasing service from Amtrak. Amtrak cannot run more trains unless they earn more revenue than the costs they incur, or if a state offsets the difference with a purchase of service contract.

coumo announce penn expansion:

 

https://ny.curbed.com/2020/1/6/21051487/penn-station-new-york-expansion-andrew-cuomo

40 minutes ago, mrnyc said:

coumo announce penn expansion:

 

https://ny.curbed.com/2020/1/6/21051487/penn-station-new-york-expansion-andrew-cuomo

 

My friends in NY state are all geeked about this -- and that Cuomo has seemingly found a little rail religion.

Edited January 8, 20205 yr by KJP

Without increasing capacity under the Hudson, is a Penn expansion all that useful?

2 hours ago, Robuu said:

Without increasing capacity under the Hudson, is a Penn expansion all that useful?

 

I think the LIRR would be happy with a few more tracks.

2 hours ago, Dougal said:

 

I think the LIRR would be happy with a few more tracks.

 

So would Amtrak's Empire Corridor and the potential for future Metro-North trains from the Hudson and the New Haven lines to serve Penn Station.

1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

So would Amtrak's Empire Corridor and the potential for future Metro-North trains from the Hudson and the New Haven lines to serve Penn Station.

 

I thought about higher-speed Albany trains, but I'm not sure how that proposal to route Penn Station-northward trains through Queens is going to work - or if it's affordable ever. (I admit to very sketchy knowledge about this.)

The folks I follow seem to think through-running trains would eliminate the need for new tracks and platforms. But changing operations and making separate bureaucracies work together is much harder than spending money. 

service to the west is more important than thru running at penn.

 

so yeah, those tunnels ...

 

maybe this new annex will help force that to happen?

 

in the meantime, here's a render (which i see includes a tower proposed for the old pennsylvania hotel across the street from penn station).

 

 

^Through running would make it easier to improve service to the west. One of the main benefits would be allowing capital dollars to be redeployed from station expansion to new tunnels. 

^ to do thru running properly, it would still involve a new station, except it would involve booting msg and basically remaking the old penn station. unfortunately cuomo is dodging the dolans and amtrak doesnt care. so apparantly this is an easier get. it serves western commuters well. they can change to lirr to the airports. there is no other reason for them to go east.

Cross-posted in the Cleveland Hopkins Airport thread:

 

Here's why Cleveland lost its United Airlines flights to NY LaGuardia and to Washington-Reagan National....because United needed the slots at those over-congested airports to provide hourly NYC-WDC flights!

 

It's bad enough when we don't even have one comfortable, well-scheduled overnight train between Cleveland or other Ohio cities to/from the East Coast's big cities. Or European- and Pacific Rim-standard high-speed with 3-hour trip times from Ohio's largest downtowns to the East Coast's largest downtowns.

 

But when a passenger rail service in America's best passenger rail corridor, the Northeast Corridor, still crawls through 19th-century tunnels and over 100-year-old bridges it isn't good enough to achieve First World standards. Nor is it good enough to render obsolete airline service between those cities separated by just 225 miles. This case example makes it obvious how poor our nation's infrastructure really is.

 

Here's why Cleveland lost its United Airlines flights to NY LaGuardia and to Washington-Reagan National....because United needed the slots at those over-congested airports to provide hourly NYC-WDC flights!

 

It's bad enough when we don't even have one comfortable, well-scheduled overnight train between Cleveland or other Ohio cities to/from the East Coast's big cities. Or European- and Pacific Rim-standard high-speed with 3-hour trip times from Ohio's largest downtowns to the East Coast's largest downtowns.

 

But when a passenger rail service in America's best passenger rail corridor, the Northeast Corridor, still crawls through 19th-century tunnels and over 100-year-old bridges it isn't good enough to achieve First World standards. Nor is it good enough to render obsolete airline service between those cities separated by just 225 miles. This case example makes it obvious how poor our nation's infrastructure really is.

 

 

^you can say that again. ?

15 hours ago, KJP said:

But when a passenger rail service ...  is [not] good enough to render obsolete airline service between those cities separated by just 225 miles. This case example makes it obvious how poor our nation's infrastructure really is.
 

 

Rail service already has about 66% of the passenger traffic in the total NE Corridor and an even greater percentage between NY and DC.  I'm not at all sure UA is going to make much money on their DCA-EWR schedule. The DC end of the route is not a big user of premium-fare products and that is how UA is promoting these flights.   

 

Edited January 18, 20205 yr by Dougal
spelling

first alstom nec acela replacement train finally rolls out:

 

 

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/first-amtrak-acela-express-train-rolls-off-alstom-production-line/

The new Acela train was passing through Ohio tonight on its way to Colorado. Here it is going through Sandusky. Was cool to see. 

 

Edited February 18, 20205 yr by TPH2

^what is the backstory on this?   Why is an Acela train set headed for Colorado?  I can’t see this climbing mtns. Or being used for prairies. 

The Federal Railroad Administration's/American Association of Railroads test facility is in Pueblo, Colorado. All new trains, railcars, locomotives get tested and certified there.

https://www.aar.com/

The Trump Administration is guilty of malfeasance by refusing to fund this project. It is an interstate infrastructure project. It is the essence why we have a federal government and a Commerce Clause in the US Constitution.....

 

FTA rates Hudson River rail tunnel project 'medium-low' priority

 

The Federal Transit Administration (FTA) earlier this week announced it has rated the Hudson River rail tunnel rehabilitation project a "medium-low" priority, a designation that serves to delay the project's eligibility for federal funding under the Capital Investment Grant program…. "This is not a game – this is real life, and at any point, the existing tunnels could fail, which would have a dire impact on millions of people and a profound negative effect on the national economy,” said PANYNJ Executive Director Rick Cotton in a prepared statement. Earlier this week, 15 U.S. Democratic senators sent a letter to the Federal Railroad Administration demanding to know why that federal agency had not yet acted on an environmental impact statement nor a record of decision for the Gateway Hudson River tunnel project. 

 

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/federal_legislation_regulation/news/FTA-rates-Hudson-River-rail-tunnel-project-medium-low-priority--59730

 

Edited February 24, 20205 yr by KJP

yeah the trumpies are really taking it out on metro ny. new tunnels are one thing, but this particular idiocy is going to cause the deaths of people and financial disaster when the old tunnels fail if they dont act to fix them asap.

 

and that news isnt even the only horrid hit to the region by trump this week. he’s also trying to block reinstating manhattan commuter/congestion pricing tolling that would be used to fund mta.

 

some news week, sheesh.

There is some good news on Amtrak proposing new federal programs and upping its own contribution to help new corridor services started, especially in states that don't have rail programs -- like Ohio. In 2010, I thought the stimulus with 100% federal capital share was a once-in-a-generation-or-two opportunity. I was wrong. What is being proposed now is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.

 

 

 

Amtrak names William J. Flynn as its next Chief Executive Officer and President. For more information, visit here:

https://media.amtrak.com/2020/03/amtrak-names-william-flynn-as-ceo-and-president/

 

A little more:

 

Transportation Veteran Flynn to Succeed Anderson at Amtrak

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/transportation-veteran-flynn-to-succeed-anderson-at-amtrak/

Edited March 2, 20205 yr by KJP

13 minutes ago, Dougal said:

 

According to a WSJ news report Amtrak asked for $1.018 billion; so that's just what they wanted.

 

Here's the breakdown from the CARES Act (stimulus) on how much Amtrak will get.....

 

$492 million - Northeast Corridor/state-supported services grants
$526 million - National Network grants

Amtrak is required to recognize unions, provide worker benefits and unemployment assistance.

On 3/2/2020 at 12:27 PM, KJP said:

Amtrak names William J. Flynn as its next Chief Executive Officer and President. For more information, visit here:

https://media.amtrak.com/2020/03/amtrak-names-william-flynn-as-ceo-and-president/

 

A little more:

 

Transportation Veteran Flynn to Succeed Anderson at Amtrak

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/transportation-veteran-flynn-to-succeed-anderson-at-amtrak/

 

This sounds like really good news!  Anderson can't go fast enough.

3 hours ago, jam40jeff said:

 

This sounds like really good news!  Anderson can't go fast enough.

 

I actually don't hate Anderson. I think his proposed growth program is one of the most wonderful things Amtrak has ever proposed.

1 minute ago, KJP said:

 

I actually don't hate Anderson. I think his proposed growth program is one of the most wonderful things Amtrak has ever proposed.

 

The dining car fiasco is enough for me to want him out.

1 minute ago, jam40jeff said:

 

The dining car fiasco is enough for me to want him out.

Why are we such a third world country when it comes to transportation amenities?  I watch you tube video of airports, airline travel, train travel and metros around the world and drool.  It is practically embarrassing.  But I must admit, our gated communities are some of the nicest on the planet.

5 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Why are we such a third world country when it comes to transportation amenities?  I watch you tube video of airports, airline travel, train travel and metros around the world and drool.  It is practically embarrassing.  But I must admit, our gated communities are some of the nicest on the planet.

 

I travel the world and see the airports and trains.  I can tell you that Denver International is about the only one in this country that competes on the world stage (which makes sense as it was the most recent large airport constructed).  Infrastructure was the one thing I had gotten behind Trump for upon his election and thus far not much has changed.  

 

 

Thats kind of what i had hoped that he would have more NY and NJ people in his administration that cared about at least the tunnels.  I figured as a NYer even if he never used the subway he would understand that it is a priority for the economy of NYC. As a “builder” he would be all about helping his friends in the concrete business. But alas no. He has moved beyond NY and has no need for them so they and the rest of NY are dead to him. 

46 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Why are we such a third world country when it comes to transportation amenities?  I watch you tube video of airports, airline travel, train travel and metros around the world and drool.  It is practically embarrassing.  But I must admit, our gated communities are some of the nicest on the planet.

 

One big reason is that infrastructure development/construction in the US has become insanely expensive. And this is for many reasons. Anyone who points to one specific factor doesn't grasp the scope of the problem. 

Major airport improvements and virtual rebuilding in some cases are starting across the country. airport-world.com/news/general-news/7100-blog-us-airports-launching-huge-renovation-projects.html

1 hour ago, jam40jeff said:

 

The dining car fiasco is enough for me to want him out.

 

Dining cars are extremely expensive and fewer and fewer rail travelers buy food on board anymore.

13 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Dining cars are extremely expensive and fewer and fewer rail travelers buy food on board anymore.

 

All sleeping car passengers "buy" food, and most buy alcohol while they're there.  If they were losing a few dollars on the food, raise the sleeping car ticket prices by a few dollars.  It's a drop in the bucket of the overall cost of the ticket.

8 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

All sleeping car passengers "buy" food, and most buy alcohol while they're there.  If they were losing a few dollars on the food, raise the sleeping car ticket prices by a few dollars.  It's a drop in the bucket of the overall cost of the ticket.

 

Amtrak loses a tremendous amount on food/beverage service and the dining car is the worst money loser of all. I recall from 20-25 years ago that Amtrak loses up to $5 million per year on a given long-distance train's cafe car and $2 million-$3 million more for the dining car. Most of the rest of the world uses a food cart to serve food/beverages but I've ridden four overnight trains throughout the world and only one had on-board food/beverage service -- and we were the only one in the cafe car on a sold-out train of 20 cars.

34 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Amtrak loses a tremendous amount on food/beverage service and the dining car is the worst money loser of all. I recall from 20-25 years ago that Amtrak loses up to $5 million per year on a given long-distance train's cafe car and $2 million-$3 million more for the dining car. Most of the rest of the world uses a food cart to serve food/beverages but I've ridden four overnight trains throughout the world and only one had on-board food/beverage service -- and we were the only one in the cafe car on a sold-out train of 20 cars.

 

The dining car especially is a loss leader.  They might find they lose even more sleeping passenger revenue without it, considering how expensive those tickets are.

3 minutes ago, jam40jeff said:

 

The dining car especially is a loss leader.  They might find they lose even more sleeping passenger revenue without it, considering how expensive those tickets are.

 

Sleeping cars also lose a lot of money.

Cross-posted in the Coronavirus thread....

 

 

Edited March 29, 20205 yr by KJP

On 3/25/2020 at 6:42 PM, KJP said:

 

Amtrak loses a tremendous amount on food/beverage service and the dining car is the worst money loser of all. I recall from 20-25 years ago that Amtrak loses up to $5 million per year on a given long-distance train's cafe car and $2 million-$3 million more for the dining car. Most of the rest of the world uses a food cart to serve food/beverages but I've ridden four overnight trains throughout the world and only one had on-board food/beverage service -- and we were the only one in the cafe car on a sold-out train of 20 cars.

 

So why isn't Amtrak learning from foreign operators and the airlines and moving to food cart service and fewer sleeping cars?  Most Americans would be shocked at how spacious and comfortable (and reclinable) Amtrak's seats are compared to the increasingly cramped airline seats that everyone knows.

1 hour ago, Foraker said:

 

So why isn't Amtrak learning from foreign operators and the airlines and moving to food cart service and fewer sleeping cars?  Most Americans would be shocked at how spacious and comfortable (and reclinable) Amtrak's seats are compared to the increasingly cramped airline seats that everyone knows.

 

I think that's the plan ultimately.

On 3/25/2020 at 7:21 PM, KJP said:

 

Sleeping cars also lose a lot of money.

 

I'm not sure why that would be.  They are charging 5x or more per room for them, so even if they only hold 1/4 as many riders, they still shouldn't be losing much more if any.  How do they even run the numbers on something like this?

 

It would be a shame to lose the sleepers.  Sure, reclining seats are more comfortable than on airlines, but there is no substitute for the privacy and comfort of a sleeper.  If they need to charge 10x for them, I'd bet most travelers already paying for them would still do so.

^ But if they're empty more than standard seats then that makes them a bigger drag.  They're also much more limited in the routes they can be used on, so they're just less flexible in their deployment and utilization.  

 

I will say however that a hyper-focus on individual service metrics can still be a mistake.  Diners and sleepers on long-distance trains, or owl service on city transit may look like just a loss, rather than a loss leader.  But these are the sorts of services that can be absolutely essential to make a round trip viable.  In the example of city transit, owl service is not used much, but that can be the only option for someone working an oddball shift.  If that one leg isn't available, then the system loses that passenger's daytime leg of the journey as well.  Then they're much less likely to use the system for anything else either.  

Sleepers regularly sell out. In fact I'm told they're still selling out because they allow social distancing unlike any other form of travel. But they still don't make money despite significant price increases by Amtrak in recent years. Sleepers are very labor intensive. Not only are there sleeping car attendants onboard to help passengers assemble/prepare their beds for them during the trip, but at the destination (where expensive commissaries exist) the sheets, blankets, pillows, pillowcases and towels have to be removed, washed, returned and beds re-made then stowed away. The sleepers are supplied with soap, paper towels, tissues, etc. The rooms have to be cleaned with lots more nooks and crannies involved than a coach car -- very time-consuming. Amtrak could contract that out, but the unions have successfully fought this. The sewage tanks have to be dumped and tanks filled with new flushing fluid (this part has been contracted out).

 

European-style sleepers include some compartments but also the open-berth sleepers (like the old open section Pullmans in the USA) and are much more cost-effective because they are simpler to manage and clean. The beds can be easily lowered or stowed away and passengers make their own beds (or not use any blankets/pillows at all). But Americans have become more individualistic/selfish and don't want to share the space where they sleep, be it a compartment or open-berths. Europe was very close to eliminating all sleeping trains because of the spread of high-speed trains and low-fare airlines. But they've made a bit of a comeback thanks to the lower-cost practices (ie: easier to maintain, etc). Amtrak's sleeping car supplier (CAF) is still cranking out expensive-to-maintain sleepers because some aspects of Amtrak are still stuck in the "That's how we've always done it" mindset that kills innovation, cost-effectiveness, trains and ultimately jobs.

 

 

 

There is a good potential to have the most Amtrak friendly president ever in Biden.  Also with worries about climate change there should be more impetus for high speed rail in a Biden administration . The 4 wasted years are nearly over.  

Infrastructure stimulus in response to the COVID19 crisis is in the works. Will it include rail? If so, Ohio has only a few shovel-ready projects that could be included (Bryan station, Elyria station, maybe Sandusky station and possibly Oxford station)......

 

MIPRC begins planning effort for infrastructure round of COVID-19 stimulus

http://miprc.org/News/miprc-begins-planning-effort-for-infrastructure-round-of-covid-19-stimulus

 

This.....

 

 

And that...