March 2, 20232 yr 3 hours ago, jonoh81 said: You said you went to the block level to get weighted density, but where? I know you can get population figures at the block level, but where did you get the area sizes for them? Also, how long did this take? There are literally hundreds, if not thousands of blocks for entire cities. Calculating density for all of them seems like it would've taken a while. The flatness of Columbus makes it easier to develop and infill. Construction costs will be less in columbus than say Cincinnati which has a more challenging topographical environment. Yes, it may be easier to sprawl out but real estate is still largely about location and where you can develop just as easily closer to the city for relatively the same cost as sprawling out, it is easier/more economical to develop where there is existing infrastructure in place, even if the cost of land is marginally higher than the burbs. All things being equal, development in the city is preferred because you have sewer, electrical and other utilities to tap into to take advantage of whereas if you are developing raw land, there are considerable infrastructure costs to drive up the cost of the project to offset the lower cost of land.
March 2, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, jam40jeff said: That would only make sense if the difficult topography was in a ring preventing outward expansion. I've said it a thousand times, and others are saying it now I see: Columbus is statistically denser than it feels because of all the suburban-style, car-centric apartment complexes that are technically dense but not interconnected, multi-use, or walkable. ...as opposed to the non-auto-centric cities of Strongsville and Mason full of single-family homes? This is Ohio, not suburban Zurich. Ohio has a handful of non-inner-city areas that are somewhat walkable and all metros have them. I think what this really says is that Metro Columbus is more willing to build "auto-centric suburban apartment complexes" than more single-family oriented Metro Cincinnati and Cleveland and it shows in these density-stats. Sawmill is a suburban hellhole but it's a denser auto-centric hellhole than, say, North Royalton or Colerain. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
March 2, 20232 yr Columbus has an enormous amount of residential not broken up by commercial and industrial. And it's almost all full.
March 2, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, jam40jeff said: That would only make sense if the difficult topography was in a ring preventing outward expansion. I've said it a thousand times, and others are saying it now I see: Columbus is statistically denser than it feels because of all the suburban-style, car-centric apartment complexes that are technically dense but not interconnected, multi-use, or walkable. Density and walkability are not the same thing, though. Low density development can be walkable and high-density development can be unwalkable. And I don't know if the standard argument for Columbus is that it feels particularly dense. If anything, most seem to argue that it feels far less dense than the other 2-Cs.
March 2, 20232 yr 49 minutes ago, ColDayMan said: ...as opposed to the non-auto-centric cities of Strongsville and Mason full of single-family homes? This is Ohio, not suburban Zurich. Ohio has a handful of non-inner-city areas that are somewhat walkable and all metros have them. I think what this really says is that Metro Columbus is more willing to build "auto-centric suburban apartment complexes" than more single-family oriented Metro Cincinnati and Cleveland and it shows in these density-stats. Sawmill is a suburban hellhole but it's a denser auto-centric hellhole than, say, North Royalton or Colerain. My point wasn't that Cleveland and Cincinnati don't also have plenty of autocentric hellholes. It was that the fact that Columbus has more density to their autocentric hellholes, giving it a higher density measurement, doesn't necessarily translate into it feeling like a more dense city to most people.
March 2, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, jam40jeff said: My point wasn't that Cleveland and Cincinnati don't also have plenty of autocentric hellholes. It was that the fact that Columbus has more density to their autocentric hellholes, giving it a higher density measurement, doesn't necessarily translate into it feeling like a more dense city to most people. Generally agreed on that, but outside of core neighborhoods in Ohio cities, college towns, a drunk Key Midwest, and some streetcar suburbs that the 3C's+DATY have, that's Ohio in general. If anything, it is perhaps a good thing Columbus isn't sprawling the way "it should" given all the land it can grow out of. It's the second densest major metro in the Midwest; it could easily be the 15th if it chose a different path with all the cornfields it can gobble. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
March 2, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, ColDayMan said: ...as opposed to the non-auto-centric cities of Strongsville and Mason full of single-family homes? This is Ohio, not suburban Zurich. Ohio has a handful of non-inner-city areas that are somewhat walkable and all metros have them. I think what this really says is that Metro Columbus is more willing to build "auto-centric suburban apartment complexes" than more single-family oriented Metro Cincinnati and Cleveland and it shows in these density-stats. Sawmill is a suburban hellhole but it's a denser auto-centric hellhole than, say, North Royalton or Colerain. I think part of that speaks to the age of the housing stock. Cleveland and Cincinnati developed much earlier and therefore built a lot of 2/4/8/12 unit buildings in their mixed residential neighborhoods. Drive down the street in East Side Cleveland or Lakewood and you see a ton of older small apartment buildings lining the streets. The huge complexes are spread further out. Also, i saw a quote where like 75% of the apartment housing stock there was built before 1990. Whereas Columbus has a much newer housing stock. You do not have as much new housing (apartment projects) in the 90s-present that are smaller than 100+ units. Only recently has that become a trend again, when dealing with urban infill. Much of the multi-family development in Columbus of the 90s-2020 range followed the trend of larger suburuban auto-centric complexes.
March 3, 20232 yr 21 hours ago, jam40jeff said: That would only make sense if the difficult topography was in a ring preventing outward expansion. I've said it a thousand times, and others are saying it now I see: Columbus is statistically denser than it feels because of all the suburban-style, car-centric apartment complexes that are technically dense but not interconnected, multi-use, or walkable. Back in 1950 Cleveland had a population of over 900K in an area of about 77 square miles. Columbus has that much in an area of 222 square miles. I think that's the biggest reason Columbus seems less dense. It would be interesting to compare Cleveland's 1950 Census density with Columbus' 2023 density since both cities in those respective years have about the same population. Cleveland unfortunately hollowed out population wise and now we are left with the bones of a 900k city. This is evident, especially on the East side in the neighborhoods where there are blocks and blocks of vacant land where duplexes, apartments and businesses used to stand. On the other hand there are still a lot of the duplexes and apartment buildings in close proximity that still exist and allows you to get the feeling that you are in a city that is denser than what it is in reality. Columbus has had its biggest boom in the post war era, so obviously has a lot of its development built in a less dense manner, but it is also so large it can have pockets that are dense in the 1950 city limits, but also in newer developments like some of the apartment/townhome complexes that were mentioned, that make up the density of some of the more suburban style areas. Not a knock on either city, just is what it is in 2023 Ohio. Edited March 3, 20232 yr by Mov2Ohio
March 3, 20232 yr On 3/2/2023 at 9:58 AM, ColDayMan said: I never thought about that but agreed. I am curious @aderwent if you have the weighted-density numbers for Pittsburgh, a similarly topographically-challenged, depopulated metropolitan area. Updating that I am working on this. I'm at a point where I'm 54 people over the Pittsburgh population. So I need to find what block(s) I've incorrectly added. Hope to find time this weekend.
March 4, 20232 yr @aderwent you're awesome. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
March 4, 20232 yr 14 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said: Back in 1950 Cleveland had a population of over 900K in an area of about 77 square miles. Columbus has that much in an area of 222 square miles. I think that's the biggest reason Columbus seems less dense. It would be interesting to compare Cleveland's 1950 Census density with Columbus' 2023 density since both cities in those respective years have about the same population. Cleveland unfortunately hollowed out population wise and now we are left with the bones of a 900k city. This is evident, especially on the East side in the neighborhoods where there are blocks and blocks of vacant land where duplexes, apartments and businesses used to stand. On the other hand there are still a lot of the duplexes and apartment buildings in close proximity that still exist and allows you to get the feeling that you are in a city that is denser than what it is in reality. Columbus has had its biggest boom in the post war era, so obviously has a lot of its development built in a less dense manner, but it is also so large it can have pockets that are dense in the 1950 city limits, but also in newer developments like some of the apartment/townhome complexes that were mentioned, that make up the density of some of the more suburban style areas. Not a knock on either city, just is what it is in 2023 Ohio. I didn't go down to the block level, but looking at census tracts in 1950, Cuyahoga County's 341 had an average density of 12308.1. Franklin's 98 tracts had an average density of 9,478.4. Looking just at city vs city, Cleveland had 254 tracts in 1950 with an average density of 14,324.9. Columbus had just 61 tracts in 1950, with an average density of 14082.9. So the cities had very similar densities in 1950 in terms of average tract density, but densities in the county show Franklin was overall much less developed. Columbus still had the highest tract density of either city. Tract 33 in 1950 had a density of 110,425.0. It was the location of the Old Ohio Pen. Cleveland's was H009 with 65,066.7. Edited March 4, 20232 yr by jonoh81
March 22, 20232 yr "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 22, 20232 yr 55 minutes ago, KJP said: Oof, I'm not convinced that answer is all that positive or an advantage. It makes it seem like people are only staying in Ohio because of familiar ties/obligations, and not because of anything inherent about the state. Which, given its poor growth rates and rapidly aging population, seems to be supported.
April 24, 20232 yr This may not be the right forum in which to make this post, but I saw this video from a geography Youtuber I like, and thought y'all might find it interesting as well:
April 24, 20232 yr 44 minutes ago, Balkmusic said: This may not be the right forum in which to make this post, but I saw this video from a geography Youtuber I like, and thought y'all might find it interesting as well: I watched this video yesterday, it bothered me that he never brought up Census Defined Urban Areas, since it's probably the least arbitrary way to measure city size. Otherwise it's an interesting video, I just wish he would have considered a measurement method that doesn't rely on arbitrary city/county lines.
April 24, 20232 yr 5 hours ago, Balkmusic said: This may not be the right forum in which to make this post, but I saw this video from a geography Youtuber I like, and thought y'all might find it interesting as well: The comments on this video are pretty funny. Everyone saying Columbus downtown has the largest area, which isn’t true at all. Cinci is the largest at 4 square miles, Cleveland is second with 3.019 square miles and Columbus is 2.4 square miles. I will agree that Columbus has the least city feel out of the 3, but it isn’t the big area wise either.
April 24, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, VintageLife said: The comments on this video are pretty funny. Everyone saying Columbus downtown has the largest area, which isn’t true at all. Cinci is the largest at 4 square miles, Cleveland is second with 3.019 square miles and Columbus is 2.4 square miles. I will agree that Columbus has the least city feel out of the 3, but it isn’t the big area wise either. Huh? Downtown Cincinnati is almost exactly 1 square mile. Quick look on Google maps and I'd say Columbus is about 1.5 square miles and Cleveland is about 2.25 square miles. Four square miles would be insanely huge.
April 25, 20232 yr 41 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: Huh? Downtown Cincinnati is almost exactly 1 square mile. Quick look on Google maps and I'd say Columbus is about 1.5 square miles and Cleveland is about 2.25 square miles. Four square miles would be insanely huge. Sorry, I did a quick google search and those are the numbers that came up, so could be wrong. after a little more looking, I was able to find some more, Cincinnati is apparently 1 square mile, Columbus still says 2.4 square miles and Cleveland is 3.02 square miles. Still could be wrong. Edited April 25, 20232 yr by VintageLife
April 25, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, VintageLife said: Sorry, I did a quick google search and those are the numbers that came up, so could be wrong. after a little more looking, I was able to find some more, Cincinnati is apparently 1 square mile, Columbus still says 2.4 square miles and Cleveland is 3.02 square miles. Still could be wrong. That sounds right. I knew Cincy was 1 square mile (doesn't include OTR of course). I just eyeballed the others and didn't know the exact boundaries.
April 25, 20232 yr 8 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: That sounds right. I knew Cincy was 1 square mile (doesn't include OTR of course). I just eyeballed the others and didn't know the exact boundaries. Yeah the way people responded in that video they acted like Columbus was triple the area of the other two. They are all decently close in size and I’m just hoping Cinci grows at the eh time census and Cleveland. I don’t understand the hate everyone throws out, we need all 3 to continue to grow.
April 25, 20232 yr 12 hours ago, VintageLife said: Yeah the way people responded in that video they acted like Columbus was triple the area of the other two. They are all decently close in size and I’m just hoping Cinci grows at the eh time census and Cleveland. I don’t understand the hate everyone throws out, we need all 3 to continue to grow. I think Columbus downtown feels a lot geographically bigger than Cincinnati because there are more surface lots and low rise buildings. It's just not as interesting to walk so it seems longer. However, that negative could be a positive in the long run. As Columbus continues to grow those lots are perfect for some awesome high rise buildings.
April 25, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, DEPACincy said: I think Columbus downtown feels a lot geographically bigger than Cincinnati because there are more surface lots and low rise buildings. It's just not as interesting to walk so it seems longer. However, that negative could be a positive in the long run. As Columbus continues to grow those lots are perfect for some awesome high rise buildings. I also feel Columbus and Cleveland downtowns feel more spread out because they have wider streets that often have 2-3 lanes each direction whereas Cincinnati has many more one way streets in the urban core and even when they have 2 way streets, they are not as wide as the other cities. High street through downtown columbus is a pretty wide street and same with Broad Street. E. 9th in Cleveland is the same. This certainly creates a bit more of a spread out downtown. Also, I know OTR is not part of downtown, do you know if the Banks is part of downtown Cinci or the area by Montgomery Inn? At one time a number of years ago I thought the Banks area (because it was mostly empty and warehouse space) was not part of the downtown business district?
April 25, 20232 yr 22 hours ago, Balkmusic said: This may not be the right forum in which to make this post, but I saw this video from a geography Youtuber I like, and thought y'all might find it interesting as well: I felt like the video showed the absurdity of MSA's, let alone CSA's. Outside of the really BIG cities of this country with extensive commuter rail, I don't see how Holmes County or Shelby County(amongst others) should ever be considered a part of Cleveland or Cincinnati's metro areas. Using his logic, you might as well just have all of NEO be a combined metro area. Edited April 25, 20232 yr by westakron1
April 25, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, DEPACincy said: I think Columbus downtown feels a lot geographically bigger than Cincinnati because there are more surface lots and low rise buildings. It's just not as interesting to walk so it seems longer. However, that negative could be a positive in the long run. As Columbus continues to grow those lots are perfect for some awesome high rise buildings. Fully agree with that. Columbus probably has a better advantage for higher buildings, but it also lost a lot of history with how many buildings got demoed back in the day. Cinci for sure feels like the best downtown and has the most historic buildings, in my opinion out of all 3. Cincinnati has the actual city feel. Hopefully as Columbus builds they focus more on street interaction and less on just building tall.
April 25, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said: Also, I know OTR is not part of downtown, do you know if the Banks is part of downtown Cinci or the area by Montgomery Inn? At one time a number of years ago I thought the Banks area (because it was mostly empty and warehouse space) was not part of the downtown business district? The Banks is part of the CBD but Montgomery Inn is in East End. It's kind of arbitrary in a lot of ways though.
May 23, 20232 yr On 3/3/2023 at 9:16 PM, ColDayMan said: @aderwent you're awesome. Sorry this took me so long. I actually had a fairly free day at work for the first time since I did the Ohio cities. Luckily, I got it on my first try today so it wasn't too bad! Pittsburgh has over 36,000 blocks in its Urbanized Area vs a littler over 21,000 for Columbus! Anyway, for Pittsburgh: 2020 Population: 1,745,039 Area: 907 square miles (!) Density: 1,924ppsm Weighted Density: 7,810ppsm
May 23, 20232 yr Impressive, thanks! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 23, 20232 yr 3 hours ago, aderwent said: Sorry this took me so long. I actually had a fairly free day at work for the first time since I did the Ohio cities. Luckily, I got it on my first try today so it wasn't too bad! Pittsburgh has over 36,000 blocks in its Urbanized Area vs a littler over 21,000 for Columbus! Anyway, for Pittsburgh: 2020 Population: 1,745,039 Area: 907 square miles (!) Density: 1,924ppsm Weighted Density: 7,810ppsm So Cbus has the smallest population but the highest density. Is this due to terrain or are the Urban area that much bigger in area that it brings down their numbers? IMO Cbus does feel more compact than it's given credit for.
May 24, 20232 yr Adding Indianapolis and also the percentage of the Metro Area that the Urbanized Area takes (in population).
May 24, 20232 yr 15 hours ago, Cbusflyer said: So Cbus has the smallest population but the highest density. Is this due to terrain or are the Urban area that much bigger in area that it brings down their numbers? IMO Cbus does feel more compact than it's given credit for. The five cities listed above are roughly the same population in Urbanized Area. However, Columbus is nearly 200 square miles smaller in land area than the next closest, Cleveland. That is a substantial--greater than 27%--difference. Meanwhile it's only 8% smaller in population. Edited May 24, 20232 yr by aderwent
May 24, 20232 yr 15 hours ago, Cbusflyer said: Is this due to terrain or are the Urban area that much bigger in area that it brings down their numbers? 1 hour ago, aderwent said: Adding Indianapolis and also the percentage of the Metro Area that the Urbanized Area takes (in population). I think aderwent answered your question with the Indianapolis numbers regarding terrain. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 24, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, aderwent said: Adding Indianapolis and also the percentage of the Metro Area that the Urbanized Area takes (in population). The interesting thing concerning Cleveland(and maybe other cities on this list) is that there is another Urban Area(Lorain/Elyria) within it's MSA and part of it's Urban area is actually within Akron's MSA and outside of it's MSA population. This is the case for Akron's urban area as well it spills into both Cleveland and Canton's MSA.
May 24, 20232 yr 19 hours ago, aderwent said: Sorry this took me so long. I actually had a fairly free day at work for the first time since I did the Ohio cities. Luckily, I got it on my first try today so it wasn't too bad! Pittsburgh has over 36,000 blocks in its Urbanized Area vs a littler over 21,000 for Columbus! Anyway, for Pittsburgh: 2020 Population: 1,745,039 Area: 907 square miles (!) Density: 1,924ppsm Weighted Density: 7,810ppsm So I must be missing something, the below is what I found with a quick search of each cities land size. Cleveland has the smallest land mass geographically, whereas Columbus has the largest and is nearly THREE times the size. I guess I'm not understanding what is meant by "Land Area" in the graphic above, could some enlighten me? It seems to me, from the below info, that CLE should have higher density. -Cleveland: has a total area of 82.47 square miles (213.60 km2), of which 77.70 square miles (201.24 km2) is land and 4.77 square miles (12.35 km2) is water. -Cincinnati: has measured the city proper at 79.54 square miles (206.01 km2), of which 77.94 square miles (201.86 km2) are land and 1.60 square miles (4.14 km2) are water. -Columbus: has a total area of 223.11 square miles (577.85 km2), of which 217.17 square miles (562.47 km2) is land and 5.94 square miles (15.38 km2) is water. Interesting note about Columbus:: Columbus currently has the largest land area of any Ohio city; this is due to Jim Rhodes's tactic to annex suburbs while serving as mayor. As surrounding communities grew or were constructed, they came to require access to waterlines, which was under the sole control of the municipal water system. Rhodes told these communities that if they wanted water, they would have to submit to assimilation into Columbus. ^^^ Cleveland should do this ^^^
May 24, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, NR said: So I must be missing something, the below is what I found with a quick search of each cities land size. Cleveland has the smallest land mass geographically, whereas Columbus has the largest and is nearly THREE times the size. I guess I'm not understanding what is meant by "Land Area" in the graphic above, could some enlighten me? It seems to me, from the below info, that CLE should have higher density. He uses the urbanized-area size, not MSA-size, which is more accurate in determining the "size" of the place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
May 24, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, NR said: Interesting note about Columbus:: Columbus currently has the largest land area of any Ohio city; this is due to Jim Rhodes's tactic to annex suburbs while serving as mayor. As surrounding communities grew or were constructed, they came to require access to waterlines, which was under the sole control of the municipal water system. Rhodes told these communities that if they wanted water, they would have to submit to assimilation into Columbus. ^^^ Cleveland should do this ^^^ I've always thought the same thing.
May 24, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, NR said: So I must be missing something, the below is what I found with a quick search of each cities land size. Cleveland has the smallest land mass geographically, whereas Columbus has the largest and is nearly THREE times the size. I guess I'm not understanding what is meant by "Land Area" in the graphic above, could some enlighten me? It seems to me, from the below info, that CLE should have higher density. -Cleveland: has a total area of 82.47 square miles (213.60 km2), of which 77.70 square miles (201.24 km2) is land and 4.77 square miles (12.35 km2) is water. -Cincinnati: has measured the city proper at 79.54 square miles (206.01 km2), of which 77.94 square miles (201.86 km2) are land and 1.60 square miles (4.14 km2) are water. -Columbus: has a total area of 223.11 square miles (577.85 km2), of which 217.17 square miles (562.47 km2) is land and 5.94 square miles (15.38 km2) is water. Interesting note about Columbus:: Columbus currently has the largest land area of any Ohio city; this is due to Jim Rhodes's tactic to annex suburbs while serving as mayor. As surrounding communities grew or were constructed, they came to require access to waterlines, which was under the sole control of the municipal water system. Rhodes told these communities that if they wanted water, they would have to submit to assimilation into Columbus. ^^^ Cleveland should do this ^^^ Rhodes had nothing to do with the annexation policy. It was started under Sensenbrenner. Subsequent mayors just continued it for a while. The water for annexation was not just to add land due to the suburbanization trend, but also just a very practical reason. Columbus was having water shortages by the 1950s, so if suburban areas wanted water, they had to be annexed so that their population would pay city taxes and contribute to improving and expanding water infrastructure. Edited May 24, 20232 yr by jonoh81
May 24, 20232 yr 5 hours ago, NR said: So I must be missing something, the below is what I found with a quick search of each cities land size. Cleveland has the smallest land mass geographically, whereas Columbus has the largest and is nearly THREE times the size. I guess I'm not understanding what is meant by "Land Area" in the graphic above, could some enlighten me? It seems to me, from the below info, that CLE should have higher density. -Cleveland: has a total area of 82.47 square miles (213.60 km2), of which 77.70 square miles (201.24 km2) is land and 4.77 square miles (12.35 km2) is water. -Cincinnati: has measured the city proper at 79.54 square miles (206.01 km2), of which 77.94 square miles (201.86 km2) are land and 1.60 square miles (4.14 km2) are water. -Columbus: has a total area of 223.11 square miles (577.85 km2), of which 217.17 square miles (562.47 km2) is land and 5.94 square miles (15.38 km2) is water. Interesting note about Columbus:: Columbus currently has the largest land area of any Ohio city; this is due to Jim Rhodes's tactic to annex suburbs while serving as mayor. As surrounding communities grew or were constructed, they came to require access to waterlines, which was under the sole control of the municipal water system. Rhodes told these communities that if they wanted water, they would have to submit to assimilation into Columbus. ^^^ Cleveland should do this ^^^ You are comparing city limits vs Urbanized Areas. Completely different metrics.
May 31, 20232 yr On 4/25/2023 at 11:19 AM, westakron1 said: I felt like the video showed the absurdity of MSA's, let alone CSA's. Outside of the really BIG cities of this country with extensive commuter rail, I don't see how Holmes County or Shelby County(amongst others) should ever be considered a part of Cleveland or Cincinnati's metro areas. Using his logic, you might as well just have all of NEO be a combined metro area. MSAs are useful for looking at economic activity and the like, but for how big a city 'feels', urban area does make more sense.
July 7, 20231 yr It looks like Cleveland gobbled up Youngstown in it's CSA. Cincinnati and Columbus gobbled up a bunch of counties along with Dayton. We will know once the official statments comes out. This is only for local pay. But it uses CSA definitions. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/06/28/2023-13621/general-schedule-locality-pay-areas Edited July 8, 20231 yr by unusualfire
July 7, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, unusualfire said: It looks like Cleveland gobbled up Youngstown in it's CSA. Cincinnati and Columbus gobbled up a bunch of counties along with Dayton. We will not once the official statments comes out. This is only for local pay. But it uses CSA definitions. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2 1 hour ago, unusualfire said: It looks like Cleveland gobbled up Youngstown in it's CSA. Cincinnati and Columbus gobbled up a bunch of counties along with Dayton. We will not once the official statments comes out. This is only for local pay. But it uses CSA definitions. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/06/28/2023-13621/general-schedule-locality-pay-areas 1 hour ago, unusualfire said: It looks like Cleveland gobbled up Youngstown in it's CSA. Cincinnati and Columbus gobbled up a bunch of counties along with Dayton. We will not once the official statments comes out. This is only for local pay. But it uses CSA definitions. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/06/28/2023-13621/general-schedule-locality-pay-areas 023/06/28/2023-13621/general-schedule-locality-pay-areas 1 hour ago, unusualfire said: It looks like Cleveland gobbled up Youngstown in it's CSA. Cincinnati and Columbus gobbled up a bunch of counties along with Dayton. We will not once the official statments comes out. This is only for local pay. But it uses CSA definitions. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/06/28/2023-13621/general-schedule-locality-pay-areas
July 7, 20231 yr Just now, vulcana said: I don't see where Youngstown is a part of Cleveland-Akron-Canton CMSA. They are talking about some extended pay agent proposal to be sent to the Presidents office, whatever that means. I checked to see an enlarged population count for these CMSA and there is nothing. If Youngstown was a part of that CMSA, wouldn't they be listed on the header since they are larger than Canton with over a half million population ?
July 8, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, unusualfire said: It looks like Cleveland gobbled up Youngstown in it's CSA. Cincinnati and Columbus gobbled up a bunch of counties along with Dayton. We will know once the official statments comes out. This is only for local pay. But it uses CSA definitions. https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2023/06/28/2023-13621/general-schedule-locality-pay-areas So if this is true, Cleveland CSA will jump 2-3 spots in the National Rankings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area Youngstown is #80 on this list ... just over 600,000 people Bringing back together the old Western Reserve : ) Edited July 8, 20231 yr by MuRrAy HiLL
July 8, 20231 yr 2 minutes ago, MuRrAy HiLL said: So if this is true, Cleveland CSA will jump 2-3 spots in the National Rankings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_statistical_area Youngstown is #80 on this list ... just over 600,000 people It could also mean that the Cleveland MSA is now much larger.
July 8, 20231 yr It’s added Youngstown AND Mansfield according to this website. How accurate is it that this will be a new CSA? If so it’s an even more insane area, stretching east to west from Pennsylvania to Sandusky.
July 8, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, vulcana said: I don’t know but the city of Youngstown is smaller than Canton and may be smaller than Lorain now.
July 8, 20231 yr 47 minutes ago, westakron1 said: I don’t know but the city of Youngstown is smaller than Canton and may be smaller than Lorain now. But not the metro area, Youngstown is larger. But I still do not see where this is some new CMSA area including Youngstown -Warren, it is a paylist..whatever that is.
July 8, 20231 yr 9 hours ago, vulcana said: But not the metro area, Youngstown is larger. But I still do not see where this is some new CMSA area including Youngstown -Warren, it is a paylist..whatever that is. If you're a federal employee it's your pay scale. If you live in any county in a Locality Area you get the same pay scale. Locality Areas begin with CSAs as a starting point, but this new list is not necessarily an indicator of what the new delineations will be.
July 8, 20231 yr On 5/24/2023 at 10:41 AM, NR said: So I must be missing something, the below is what I found with a quick search of each cities land size. Cleveland has the smallest land mass geographically, whereas Columbus has the largest and is nearly THREE times the size. I guess I'm not understanding what is meant by "Land Area" in the graphic above, could some enlighten me? It seems to me, from the below info, that CLE should have higher density. -Cleveland: has a total area of 82.47 square miles (213.60 km2), of which 77.70 square miles (201.24 km2) is land and 4.77 square miles (12.35 km2) is water. -Cincinnati: has measured the city proper at 79.54 square miles (206.01 km2), of which 77.94 square miles (201.86 km2) are land and 1.60 square miles (4.14 km2) are water. -Columbus: has a total area of 223.11 square miles (577.85 km2), of which 217.17 square miles (562.47 km2) is land and 5.94 square miles (15.38 km2) is water. Interesting note about Columbus:: Columbus currently has the largest land area of any Ohio city; this is due to Jim Rhodes's tactic to annex suburbs while serving as mayor. As surrounding communities grew or were constructed, they came to require access to waterlines, which was under the sole control of the municipal water system. Rhodes told these communities that if they wanted water, they would have to submit to assimilation into Columbus. ^^^ Cleveland should do this ^^^ The suburbs would fight that vigorously and viciously and the state legislature would unequivocally back them. The Republicans would support them on general principles, the Democrats semi grudgingly because they want to retain what they still have there.
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