"Why do you think Blacks, Latins, Gays/Lesbians/Bi/Transgendered feel oppressed?!"

 

No, oppression would likely mean some kind of action on their part - it's more like exclusion and neglect.

"Why do you think Blacks, Latins, Gays/Lesbians/Bi/Transgendered feel oppressed?!"

 

No, oppression would likely mean some kind of action on their part - it's more like exclusion and neglect.

 

now that you say that, I think its a combintation of oppression, exclusion and neglect.

Yet several Ohio newspapers have gotten their panties in a bunch over Karen Holbrook's 250K bonus at Ohio State.  Under her leadership, Ohio State took in 650 million dollars in external research funding which, by the federal government's standard multipliers, translated into 24,000 well paying jobs and 9 billion dollars in total economic impact for the state.  It was more than Case and UC combined.  It was more than every other public university in the state combined.  It was almost as much as every other public and private university in the state combined.  Under her tenure, Ohio State now has 23 members of the National Academies of Science and Engineering.  For comparison's sake, the other 12 public universities combined have 1!

 

Now, they're whining about Gordon Gee's new salary.  Get some perspective.  Quality costs money, and lowest common denominator standards are not the way to halt a brain-drain.

I think Europeanizing our cities' would do wonders for cities' growth and healthiness.

 

Here is a good article by what I mean:

 

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/AB/20070805/NEWS01/708050404/

Cincy-Rise, you do realize that the vast bulk of Europeans live in suburbs, not the quaint city centers we Americans visit when we go there.  They shop at gigantic hypermarkets, etc.

 

Well their suburbs aren't nearly as sprawly as ours. Europe cares much more about their history.

Cincy-Rise, you do realize that the vast bulk of Europeans live in suburbs, not the quaint city centers we Americans visit when we go there.  They shop at gigantic hypermarkets, etc.

 

 

The article is about public parks, streetscapes, and turning something we use everyday (like a road or a pathway) into a beautiful enjoyable experience. Something us Americans don't seem to understand, but I think we're finally starting to realize this.

Older folks view younger folks, and for very valid reasons, as being soaked in a kind of naivety that is mind boggling, although in many cases, same said older folks were just as naive.

 

One bit of advice if you really want to go as far as you say you do: realize that the workplace populace really isn't all that talented and most things aren't really all that complicated, unless you make them. Most people can do most jobs if they practice at it long enough. But that means you'll have to REALLY know your sh!t, if you're going to be as cock strong enough to be a champion in the ladder climb of the business world that has so  many broken rungs.

 

The world is a mother f$&ker my brother. You'll have highs and lows, and hopefully some mistletoes.

 

over time have REALLY ticked me off.  Maybe this is unjustified for me, but you constantly belittle those that are younger than you and that you feel are not as enlightened as you.

Well the irony is that JMeck is in his mid to late 20s..not much older than the people he's condescending towards. It's not as if he's correcting people with wonkish information about planning and urban development, it's usually something quite random...sort of the "when I was your age, we walked 15 miles in the snow to the bus stop" rant. Lol.  I haven't seen him do it in a while though  :-D

Panel to discuss 'brain drain'

Ohio colleges look to keep top talent in state

By Barry M. Horstman • [email protected] • December 1, 2008

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20081201/NEWS0102/812010311/1055/NEWS

 

 

Hoping to find ways to help Ohio retain its best and brightest, a group of college presidents, business executives, politicians and others will gather today at the University of Cincinnati to devise strategies to combat the state's "brain drain."

 

 

 

Well, I'll say this about the economic disaster we're in - it's definitely going to help local schools' enrollments.

 

With studies showing that about 80 percent of workers establish their careers near where they attended college, public and private leaders say making Ohio's universities and colleges more attractive to top high school students is one of the keys to building a well-educated work force.

 

Yeah lets build more rec centers and student unions! Seriously, tuition in Ohio is entirely too damn high. Many kids give up and don't do well in High School or college because they're worried about their finances and feel like their future i hopeless anyway. FAFSA screws over the middle class and students with parents that are in a lot of debt and don't make their kids a priority. You think those kids at Taft are gonna have 2 parents to help them with expenses? You think their parents have good credit to cosign on a loan? A lot of these public schools don't even have teachers that promote the idea of college. They don't motivate you, they don't explain your options and try to work with you and show you what your resources are. They don't reach out to the kids, and neither do the parents.

Easy solution to fix OH's brain drain: Stop putting older folks in charge of stopping brain drain, and put together someone from the 18-21 age group to represent that group, 22-25 age group to represent that group, 26-29 age group to represent that group, and 30-35 age group to represent that group. Or maybe a few people from each group and put them in charge.

 

With studies showing that about 80 percent of workers establish their careers near where they attended college, public and private leaders say making Ohio's universities and colleges more attractive to top high school students is one of the keys to building a well-educated work force.

 

Yeah lets build more rec centers and student unions! Seriously, tuition in Ohio is entirely too damn high. Many kids give up and don't do well in High School or college because they're worried about their finances and feel like their future i hopeless anyway. FAFSA screws over the middle class and students with parents that are in a lot of debt and don't make their kids a priority. You think those kids at Taft are gonna have 2 parents to help them with expenses? You think their parents have good credit to cosign on a loan? A lot of these public schools don't even have teachers that promote the idea of college. They don't motivate you, they don't explain your options and try to work with you and show you what your resources are. They don't reach out to the kids, and neither do the parents.

 

All very true.  People born in Ohio face a double-whammy, bad economy and high college costs.

Easy solution to fix OH's brain drain: Stop putting older folks in charge of stopping brain drain, and put together someone from the 18-21 age group to represent that group, 22-25 age group to represent that group, 26-29 age group to represent that group, and 30-35 age group to represent that group. Or maybe a few people from each group and put them in charge.

 

I don't even understand why the state needs a damn focus group to understand the problem. Are they really that out of touch with young people? There are only so many scholarships to go around. They need to make college cheaper, it's as simple as that. Almost all of the universities charge the maximum amount they are ALLOWED by the state. State universities are always trying to one-up each other, and the kids who don't have to worry about their expenses demand those amenities nowadays.

 

Professors also love to require books that you end up reading one chapter out of. Most books are unnecessary. The meat and potatoes of the information you need in the books can be given in the form of class handouts and power point slides. Something tells me these professors are getting kickbacks for requiring books. I've spent thousands on books. They cost upwards of 150 dollars each for a quarter long class. It's insane.

Easy solution to fix OH's brain drain: Stop putting older folks in charge of stopping brain drain, and put together someone from the 18-21 age group to represent that group, 22-25 age group to represent that group, 26-29 age group to represent that group, and 30-35 age group to represent that group. Or maybe a few people from each group and put them in charge.

 

I don't even understand why the state needs a damn focus group to understand the problem. Are they really that out of touch with young people? There are only so many scholarships to go around. They need to make college cheaper, it's as simple as that. Almost all of the universities charge the maximum amount they are ALLOWED by the state. State universities are always trying to one-up each other, and the kids who don't have to worry about their expenses demand those amenities nowadays.

 

Professors also love to require books that you end up reading one chapter out of. Most books are unnecessary. The meat and potatoes of the information you need in the books can be given in the form of class handouts and power point slides. Something tells me these professors are getting kickbacks for requiring books. I've spent thousands on books. They cost upwards of 150 dollars each for a quarter long class. It's insane.

 

It's not only brain drain it D I V E R S I T Y.

 

As somone said earlier, it's always a 50(=) year old leading a group that they know nothing about.

 

Where are the blacks, latinos, asians, gay, lesbian & transgendered focus groups?

 

Just saying that ohio and is pro "x" would do wonders. Having some commercials via youtube, facebook and myspace would do wonders along with a print campaign.

I don't even understand why the state needs a damn focus group to understand the problem. Are they really that out of touch with young people? There are only so many scholarships to go around. They need to make college cheaper, it's as simple as that.

 

I don't think this is so much about making college cheaper or getting people to go to college. This is keeping them in the state AFTER they go to college.

 

I think a focus group would be great, especially since the leadership does seem so inept in this area. Ohio isn't a state that is attractive to young people because it doesn't flourish in industries that are ATTRACTIVE to young people. Young people are idealists. They need to know that their ideas can actually MAKE it somewhere, and in Ohio, a state that is quite comfortable with doing things in adherence to the past, young people don't feel effective!

 

I mean, let's face it. What is Ohio still, after all these years, mostly known for? Blue collar jobs! Why would any young person dream of having a blue collar job for the rest of their lives (by and large)? Most of them are dead end jobs. That's why they move away to larger cities with bigger visions that have greater impact in the areas that they want to pursue. Until Ohio starts becoming more open to the FUTURE in terms of economically and industry, it's going to go round and round wondering what the f$&k they're doing wrong, while the answer is staring them in the face.

 

Honestly, I don't know if Ohio really wants to do what needs to be done to seal off the brain drain because it's too used to doing things the way it always has. It requires CHANGE. And in this case, I think it's a change of MENTALITY, a matter of getting their heads out of their asses and doing things COMPLETELY differently.

In a word the answer is cities.  We don't have mountains or beaches, and our climate is intimidating.  The reason Ohio gained prominence in the first place was its network of bustling cities.  As Ohio shrinks, the nation and world are becoming more urban.  Our leadership insists on going the other way.  It's madness.  We need to rebuild our cities and do it well-- no more cutting corners and NO MORE suburban-style redevelopment.  Young people put up with the weather in Boston and Chicago just fine, but here it's a dealbreaker.  That's because our cities are perceived as having so much less to offer.   

Weather, lack of beaches..that's no excuse at all. Speaking for myself, since I don't have strong family ties, I want to live in a city that's highly dynamic and offers a lot of opportunities.

In a word the answer is cities.  We don't have mountains or beaches, and our climate is intimidating.  The reason Ohio gained prominence in the first place was its network of bustling cities.  As Ohio shrinks, the nation and world are becoming more urban.  Our leadership insists on going the other way.  It's madness.  We need to rebuild our cities and do it well-- no more cutting corners and NO MORE suburban-style redevelopment.  Young people put up with the weather in Boston and Chicago just fine, but here it's a dealbreaker.  That's because our cities are perceived as having so much less to offer.   

 

And many of our leaders on a neighborhood, city, county, regional and state level do next to nothing and we have media outlets **cough-cough ** like the Plain Dealer **cough-cough **  that beat it into our heads that the grass is greener elsewhere!

I was about to echo j3. In the end, the drain stops when the jobs are plentiful. The interesting thing about Ohio is that it actually has a pretty diversified economy including plenty of 'cool' or 'idealistic' jobs. The problem is the quantity. We remain one of the largest centers for retail corporations in the country - mostly Cincy and Cbus, which brings with it the ad folks, fashion designers, marketing, brand design et al. I know plenty of engineers doing 'good' things for the world (and a few who are probably destroying the environment). Some of it is cultural, but it isn't Ohio's problem, it's America's (and probably the entire world) problem. The idea that we aim for the peak of the international power structure rather than finding success in local, tightknit communities is a real problem for places in Ohio.

 

Honestly, getting those aged 18-26 is highly over-rated - they are mostly more trouble than they are worth. I'd rather grab an outsized share of those 26-35, because that is when people settle down and really make the biggest choices about their lives and are able to make real things happen. This especially true in our world of the extended adolescence.

>They need to make college cheaper

 

A big part of the college expense is advertising, and the very campuses themselves are advertising.  So people quit bitching about the expense if you're the one calling for ridiculous starchitecture buildings that are overpriced and expensive to maintain because of all the custom work.  Quit demanding luxurious dorms and go back to living in bunks and eating regular cafeteria food instead of demanding cafeterias that look like mall food courts and coffee shops.  Don't pick a school because they've got the newest campus rec center with a wave pool.  And quit staging living wage protests so that custodians can make $25/hr with full benefits while adjuncts make $15/hr with no benefits.  And quit supporting a federal student loan program that allows any bum off the street to spend $15K a year majoring in underwater basket weaving.     

I tried so hard to stay in Ohio. I am not a stupid cookie, and I pushed myself really hard to ensure that I'd have the work experience and educational background necessary to get the job I wanted. Unfortunately, I work in a field highly sensitive to the economic crisis, but declining revenues on a local and state level meant that government work and contracts disappeared and the companies and jurisdictions expecting this work were forced to either stop hiring or start laying off.

 

The truth is that we will go where the jobs are, and right now for many fields that just isn't Ohio. May it be something like overspending at ODOT that caused it for me or something entirely different, the truth is that events have led to times being tough in Ohio right now, and that necessarily is not a bad thing for some one trying to find a job. I know that once it became obvious I wouldn't be able to get a job in Ohio I waited for the exact job I wanted, and as such I live in Annapolis doing something I love. It's quite refreshing to wake up each day and actually want to go to work. Freaky, I know, but it's true, and at some point this year I came to the harsh realization that Ohio would not be able to provide that type of job to me. Maybe some day the future will change and I'll be able to return home, but now I have had to move and I love my job. That said, Cincinnati still has my heart even though Maryland is my home, and I think that will be true for a long time.

>They need to make college cheaper

 

A big part of the college expense is advertising, and the very campuses themselves are advertising.  So people quit bitching about the expense if you're the one calling for ridiculous starchitecture buildings that are overpriced and expensive to maintain because of all the custom work.  Quit demanding luxurious dorms and go back to living in bunks and eating regular cafeteria food instead of demanding cafeterias that look like mall food courts and coffee shops.  Don't pick a school because they've got the newest campus rec center with a wave pool.  And quit staging living wage protests so that custodians can make $25/hr with full benefits while adjuncts make $15/hr with no benefits.  And quit supporting a federal student loan program that allows any bum off the street to spend $15K a year majoring in underwater basket weaving.     

 

Tell us how you really feel.  he he he

Jmech is right, but the other complicating factor is the differential between out of state students and in-state students. The universities spend to pretty up to grab the higher revenue from out of state (and at private schools - this is about class rather than geography). In-state students are essentially a commodity. Since most states don't adequately subsidize their in-state college students, the universities can't win on tuition for locals.

 

The other key to affordable (quality) universities would be a faculty system that avoids adjunct faculty and invests there instead of student services and other extraneous investments.

Dave are you opposed to the typical grad student/adjunct system that undermines the quality of undergraduate education at so many universities?  My cousin is 3 semesters into OSU and has only had two real professors so far, for example.  But it's much the same at the Ivy League schools, and the adjunct system makes plenty of sense for obscure stuff or 100-level surveys.

 

There was an interesting article in the NY Times today about Americans gaining easy admission into English and Scottish universities because it's quite literally easy money for those governments, since there is little or no tuition for UK citizens.  Similarly, many US universities lower admissions standards (or have open enrollment) for minorities from poor upbringings who get the automatic government funding. 

I had several adjuncts or TA's for my calc classes at OSU, and their English was very poor.  Seems like a base qualification for the job.

As a long time adjunct, it's a seriously sucky job. I'd rather see more teaching-oriented positions that pay a living wage but don't expect much in the way of research. These positions should about the same as high school teacher (low 40s in today's money). They would teach a full load (4-5 classes) and get health insurance and retirement and the like.

 

The grad students issue is a harder nut to crack. They do need the experience, but that also means they are practicing on tuition paying students and often they are supposed to be spending most of their time their research. It is worth noting that the big state schools in Ohio usually are using grad students are teachers rather than true adjuncts (who have a couple degrees already and are true free agents). NKU does actually rely heavily on adjuncts though supposedly that's changing a little bit.

 

I've said this before but I think a guild system would be valuable for people who want to teach fleeting subjects or obscure ones that aren't worth a budget line but requires specialized knowledge.

What's so ridiculous about being an instructor of record in grad school is that at age 24 or so you're up there teaching a class full of college freshman or sophomores but it can take years after getting out of grad school before you're qualified to do it again!  Even adjunct jobs at the bigger universities want "teaching experience beyond graduate school", so good thing this country has about a half billion community colleges.     

 

>NKU does actually rely heavily on adjuncts though supposedly that's changing a little bit.

 

But there are some fantastic adjunct instructors out there, especially people nearing retirement or who are retired from successful careers.  Then there are the stunts put on by celebrity adjuncts like Al Gore...

 

 

 

 

Wow. I assumed it was easy to be an adjunct if you already have experience as a TA, since you establish a relationship with the school and they get some feedback on you from students. It seems like market forces more than anything. The research, publication and patents (in engineering departments) bring in a lot of money to the university so I guess that's why tenure professors are highly valued. It's weird to think about though, because you naturally assume a university's job is to educate students. As a student you don't really know what all goes on behind the scenes. Grading papers is apparently too trivial for someone with a PH.D to bother with, so it goes to a guy lower on the totem pole. I've had some absolutely terrible TAs, especially the one I had in my philosophy class. At the same time, I always got the impression that true professors don't have as much work experience as adjuncts. Adjuncts teach you a great deal about the reality of the work force and theory's true application. I have a great deal of respect for adjuncts and found them to be more easily to relate to. Something is wrong if they're only making 15 bucks an hour. Is that based on office hours (a few hours a week) and actual credit hours? Man, that's incredibly small, if that holds true. The hours they actually work are sporadic. I would love to teach land use/zoning law some day. Teaching sounds like a fun job, especially if you can design a specialized class and use your own subject material. I'd love to get a JD some day and teach a land use law class; it wouldn't have to be a highly reputable university or anything. It's just great to have those stimulating intellectual discussions and get everyone's input.

 

I have a question though: Say if I aspired to teach land use law one day, would a JD be enough after I get a planning degree or do you usually have to have a masters in planning and JD? All I know is that technically, you need a masters degree to teach at a university but there's so many people getting a million degrees so naturally there's a lot of competition. I was thinking about taking some summer classes at community college last year and I was looking at the professors qualifications and many of them had multiple undergrad degrees, multiple graduate degrees and PH.Ds. It blew me away. It seems unnecessary, unless they intend to teach classes in various departments.

It's gets really complicated basically and law is a whole different ballgame when it comes to be a faculty member of any sort (there is a whole sub-blogosphere just devoted to becoming a law prof.). Teaching something that specialized might be easier than becoming say a constitutional law prof. It is worth noting that our future president spent many years as an adjunct law prof. in Chicago. It really is the adjunctification of America.

 

The place of the adjunct in the liberal arts is very different than in the 'applied' areas. In those cases the adjuncts often are used because they have real world experience. In the liberal arts, adjuncts are simply the cheapest labor available - usually between 1700 and 3500 per course depending on one's highest degree/school/subject area/enrollment.

 

When the budget is good, schools avoid hiring their own grads as adjuncts, but it seems to be more common since there are a massive numbers of empty faculty lines sitting out there.

A lot of planning schools have lawyers teaching land-use/planning law classes as well.

 

Are those blogs you speak of used for spreading information about current topics to professors? I check up on a blog that discusses late news articles on pertainent topics; I assumed it was just a personal blog about zoning law. Is that how profs get material to cover in class for the 'applied' areas?

 

I'd start with Brian Leiter and Volokh Conspiracy. Lawyers probably use that a little, but the law world has lots of proprietary information sources that they pay lots of money for that we don't get to see for free. There are also conferences and journals that discuss all these issues.

How important is this upcoming census for Ohio next year?  And for cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Dayton, Mansfield, Youngstown, Akron/Canton?

 

I wanted to start the debate to see if there is anything that can be done to best ensure proper census info is being taken, especially for cities who have be losing population for decades, but seem to be plateau-ing...and even flirting with increases.

 

How big would a moral boast be if some of these city limits posted an increase, not to mention increased federal dollars. 

 

What does everybody think?

I don't see it.  We do not attract immigrants, and they usually off-set the natives that leave.  If the Clinic were heavy manufacturing or some other form of labor, it would be a different story.

Increases are unlikely outside of specific gentrifying areas.  The last census was during the real estate bubble, which hit lower income neighborhoods very hard in the intervening years.  The only non-gentrified neighborhoods in Cleveland where I would predict increases are Asiatown and the Clark/Stockyards area, both due to immigration.

 

Overall I still expect Cleveland to show losses.  Obama may push to have better inner city counts, but I have to wonder how many people Bush got into Commerce over the last 8 years.  They'll fight any such efforts.  Remember when Obama tried to appoint a republican to head Commerce, and census plans were one of the reasons he withdrew?  This could get ugly.

I doubt any built out neighborhood in Ohio will show an increase in population.  Massive infill is needed to offset the continual decrease in household size, and I don't think we're seeing that anywhere in Ohio.  The 3 C's Downtowns will show population gain, maybe some of the smaller cities, too.

I don't see Cleveland gaining, especially with our neighborhoods hollowing out within the past 3 years due to the foreclosure crisis.  Sadly, I wouldn't be supprised if Cleveland's population is around 400,000 by next census.  Where's our city's help with this man-made Katrina?  It ain't coming.

Honestly, I'm not sure.  We've had external reviews that showed or population at over 500k that didn't match the census.

 

I  know personally they tried to lump us Shaker Square folks in with Shaker Heights.  Althought I pointed to the damn sign right infront of my building that clearly shows we live in Cleveland.

 

I'm hoping we are around 450k

I've heard it's estimated that Youngstown will only have about 65K people at the next census.  And this was from someone I consider reliable.

i don't see the census count as so much of an instate issue as i do a possible loss for ohio vs other states when it comes to fed $ and pull down in dc. its more important in the battle with the michigan's and pennsylvania's and whoever else is close in population to ohio.

My biggest thing is to ensure that people actually are counted.

 

I have a friend working on the minority part of the census campaign and they have a lot of materials aimed a minorities, especially those in large cities.

Cincinnati should show a modest gain in the city, with a bigger gain in the metro area (including northern kentucky and south eastern Indiana).

 

I'm thinking things don't look good for the rest of the state....

Cincinnati should show a modest gain in the city, with a bigger gain in the metro area (including northern kentucky and south eastern Indiana).

 

I'm thinking things don't look good for the rest of the state....

 

Ditto.

 

I think we'll be surprised to see the new census count. In my age group, which consist of a hell of a lot of first-time home-buyers, it's "cool" to buy in the city ... especially specific neighborhoods.

I doubt any built out neighborhood in Ohio will show an increase in population. Massive infill is needed to offset the continual decrease in household size, and I don't think we're seeing that anywhere in Ohio. The 3 C's Downtowns will show population gain, maybe some of the smaller cities, too.

I think household size will start to increase as the economy gets worse. Im starting to see more people move back home to their parents because they are out of work. You will see more young adults stay at home longer until the economy improves.

I'm expecting Hamilton to surpass Springfield as the state's 11th largest city. Hamilton has been slowly gaining while Springfield is slowly losing, at least in yearly estimates.

I think we'll be surprised to see the new census count. In my age group, which consist of a hell of a lot of first-time home-buyers, it's "cool" to buy in the city ... especially specific neighborhoods.

 

I hope you're right, although there's potential for that to have the opposite effect.

 

As an anecdotal example, my block in Cincinnati city limits had at least 3 duplexes converted to single family within the last 2 years. The same things that make city living "cool" can also lead to tiny average household sizes. Property values are up, but household size is down.

 

Also, I wonder about - again in Cinicinnati - the effects of gentrification on overall population numbers. A couple thousand very poor people have left the inner city in recent years. Presumably not all of them stayed within city limits. Frankly, I consider that a good trend. But in terms of the census, there's no way that young professionals are replacing them at a 1 to 1 ratio.

Does Cleveland count the 6000+ students in University Circle who live in Cleveland at least 9 months out of the year? (CWRU, CIA, CIM)

 

EDIT: note Case enrollment is 4000 undergrad and 6000 grad schoolers, so this is only an estimate counting CIA and CIM.

chances are I will be counted in Cleveland in 2010, definitely cuy co, job at metro

moving from Toledo, uncounted

Yes, one of the main reasons Judd Gregg declined the Commerce appointment is because of Obama's plans to move the Census to the direct supervision of the White House.  Considering the fact that both Obama and his Chief of Staff are products of one of the most corrupt political entities in US History, perhaps GOP suspicions are justifiable.

 

IMNSHO the Census goes far beyond its proper role of counting noses, and that may be impacting its ability to properly perform its basic function.