You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Sure...go ahead...but it doesn't make it correct:

 

https://www.newsgeneration.com/broadcast-resources/top-100-radio-markets/

I usually avoid debates like this by considering how close the data is for the three C metros.

Just an FYI, the latest GDP numbers show:

 

Cincinnati: $132,010

Columbus: $130,758

Cleveland-Elyria: $129,440

 

https://bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_metro/2017/pdf/gdp_metro0917.pdf

 

Those numbers are so close that they're probably within the margin of each other. The MSA population numbers are similar.

 

All of us here are aware of strengths and peculiarities of each of the 3C's. Whether one of them is has a minuscule edge in population or income is irrelevant. In my mind the 3C metros are exactly the same size.

I usually avoid debates like this by considering how close the data is for the three C metros.

Just an FYI, the latest GDP numbers show:

 

Cincinnati: $132,010

Columbus: $130,758

Cleveland-Elyria: $129,440

 

https://bea.gov/newsreleases/regional/gdp_metro/2017/pdf/gdp_metro0917.pdf

 

Those numbers are so close that they're probably within the margin of each other. The MSA population numbers are similar.

 

All of us here are aware of strengths and peculiarities of each of the 3C's. Whether one of them is has a minuscule edge in population or income is irrelevant. In my mind the 3C metros are exactly the same size.

 

I don't disagree at all.  All 3C's haven been equals for years in general, which is why it's odd that folks would say "___ is clearly the big city."  They are probably the closest/equal metropolitan areas for a large state to have unlike other large states which have either a large primate city (GA, IL, MI, NY) or a large one with important secondary ones (CA, FL, PA, etc).  Texas (Dallas/Houston) and North Carolina (Charlotte/Raleigh) are Ohio-like but only have 2, which makes Ohio so remarkable.

My comments were not meant to be a pissing match between Cleve, Cincy and Cbus.

 

I have lived in Cleveland and think it is a great city. Outside of the weather, I loved Cleveland.

 

My point though is that given that all cities are roughly the same size, each should support a top level research school. Cleveland has one in Case, which is probably better than both OSU and UC in prestige. (For the record, nobody cares about Oberlin, it is a cute little school but we are talking about research schools which Oberlin is not, nor does it have the endowment, prestige or economic might of Case, OSU or UC. Oberlin is really not relevant to the conversation). 

 

Given that Cle, Cincy and Columbus are roughly the same size, there is no need to elevate CSU to a high level research school since Case is already in the market. Yes it is private, but so what. The point of the Carnegie level Research Schools is not about providing education to students (that is secondary now) it is about doing high level prestigious research and generating grants for the research and also recruiting and attracting high level faculty whose jobs it is to make these discoveries and provide an economic driver for the community. Case accomplishes this task already quite well. CSU is not needed to do this, that is Case's responsibility. 

 

If you want to compare CSU to another school, it is like Northern Kentucky University is to Cincinnati. I do not think there is an applicable comparison in Columbus. Yes CSU has a lot more students than Case, high level college education has never been about the students for a long time. It is solely about the Research Dollars and in that area, Case is king

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Sure...go ahead...but it doesn't make it correct:

 

https://www.newsgeneration.com/broadcast-resources/top-100-radio-markets/

 

 

Media is actually divided into DMAs (Designated Market Areas) which are different geographically than MSAs. For example, Logan and Bucyrus are in the Columbus DMA but not its MSA.

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Sure...go ahead...but it doesn't make it correct:

 

https://www.newsgeneration.com/broadcast-resources/top-100-radio-markets/

 

 

Media is actually divided into DMAs (Designated Market Areas) which are different geographically than MSAs. For example, Logan and Bucyrus are in the Columbus DMA but not its MSA.

 

I know this.  Just saying that putting Cleveland/Akron/Canton together makes sense as compared to what others have suggested. 

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Sure...go ahead...but it doesn't make it correct:

 

https://www.newsgeneration.com/broadcast-resources/top-100-radio-markets/

 

Neither does saying Akron is part of the Cleveland MSA.  Nor are radio markets MSAs.  So it's what I said, we get to make up what we want.  Facts aren't important, it's what we believe.  America 2018.

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Sure...go ahead...but it doesn't make it correct:

 

https://www.newsgeneration.com/broadcast-resources/top-100-radio-markets/

 

 

Media is actually divided into DMAs (Designated Market Areas) which are different geographically than MSAs. For example, Logan and Bucyrus are in the Columbus DMA but not its MSA.

 

I know this.  Just saying that putting Cleveland/Akron/Canton together makes sense as compared to what others have suggested.

 

It might make sense to you, but it's not reality.  Just like Dayton isn't part of Cincinnati no matter how many people think it is.  Now, maybe they one day will be, but they're not in the present.  I just wish people could stick to the actual facts on things.  It would save so much argument.

I think there is some fuzziness in the Cleveland MSA because Summit County is adjacent to Cuyahoga.  But we should use the census definitions.  I think NEO as a region is larger than any region in Ohio but that doesn't mean that Cleveland's metro is much different that the other to Cs.  Youngstown and Canton don't really have much to do with Cleveland.

Cleveland State is far from a Liberal Arts College. Its an engineer/lawyer college. CSU may not have the money needed to research as much as OSU or UC, but it sure does its fair share in the research game even in law with a new field of "Space Law". This school is probably the best to go for engineers in Ohio, the tuition is super low, and the proximity to other engineering universities such as Toledo, Akron, and Bowling green make Lake Erie an Engineering basin.

 

I would keep I-80 into consideration as there is a reasonable commute from 80 to each of these Universities. As I-80 kind of outlines the Watershed of Lake Erie, "Erie State University"

BGSU is not an engineering school.

 

Several BG folks told me that the state offered an engineering school to BGSU in the 1980s, and the administration declined because engineering veered too far from the university's mission.

I think there is some fuzziness in the Cleveland MSA because Summit County is adjacent to Cuyahoga.  But we should use the census definitions.  I think NEO as a region is larger than any region in Ohio but that doesn't mean that Cleveland's metro is much different that the other to Cs.  Youngstown and Canton don't really have much to do with Cleveland.

 

Dayton has the same issue with Warren County having the southern suburbs go to Cincinnati's MSA (Springboro, Franklin, etc).  By no means is Dayton a part of Metro Cincinnati (they are two entirely different metropolitan areas and media markets) but the Census can get wonky in terms of division.  I've always supported New England's Census standards (by cities and towns) over counties.  That would clear the debate of what cities are a part of what MSA.

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Oh right, I forgot, you're the expert on all things Cleveland.  Your quick Google Streetview and census synopsis explains everything about NE Ohio.

 

Let Columbus take on all of Northwest Ohio, they already take up large swaths of Franklin County.

I wonder how big a metro needs to be for it to have its own media market.  By that, I mean not just radio but actually having local television news stations. I suppose Toledo is probably the smallest one in Ohio. If you count just having a local newspaper or a couple radio stations, there's dozens of 'media markets' in Ohio.

I wonder how big a metro needs to be for it to have its own media market.  By that, I mean not just radio but actually having local television news stations. I suppose Toledo is probably the smallest one in Ohio.

 

Zanesville is, actually.  Lima, Steubenville, and Marietta also have their own media markets but Zanesville is the state's smallest, metro-wise.

 

Those places don't have local TV stations though, do they? What would they talk about on the nightly news in Steubenville?

 

"A cow was tipped over this morning and police are now looking for the perpetrator. More at 11..."

Those places don't have local TV stations though, do they? What would they talk about on the nightly news in Steubenville?

 

"A cow was tipped over this morning and police are now looking for the perpetrator. More at 11..."

 

Really?  Wouldn't that be more of a Lima thing?  Have you ever been to Steubenville?  Read about the judge in Jefferson County from last year.  They also pick up a lot of Pittsburgh related topics.

Akron used to have their own ABC affiliate.

Akron doesn't have their own TV stations? Fort Wayne has several and their MSA is practically half of Akron's.

Akron doesn't have their own TV stations? Fort Wayne has several and their MSA is practically half of Akron's.

 

I think it's because Akron is in Cleveland's "air" space.

Media market is a separate thing from MSA, one is set up by the FCC and the other by the census bureau.

 

It's obvious to anyone who lives here that Akron is quite well intertwined with Cleveland just based on the amount of people who commute from one to the other. Cleveland is less so intertwined with other parts of what is referred to as "Northeast Ohio" such as Youngstown.

 

We are all talking about about arbitrary lines on a map here but it would be nice if they could combine the two MSAs because it would benefit the region.

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

I guess you weren’t around when God passed out common sense!!! The bottom line is that there are cities in Akron’s MSA such as Northfield, Macedonia, Twinsburg, Sagamore Hills, Aurora and others that are FACTUALLY Cleveland suburbs. Akron is only 39 miles from Downtown Cleveland in the next county. So for you to suggest that Columbus/Dayton (75 miles) Columbus/Toledo (140 miles) and Cincy/Indy (100 miles) would be in the same boat as Cleveland/Akron shows a level of incompentence and cluelessness that I’ve rarely seen!!! Furthermore, what you fail to realize these govt definitions are very political. The reason that Cleveland and Akron are not in the same MSA Is because Akron officials don’t want to be part of the Cleveland MSA, pure and simple. It has very little to do commuting patterns or any other metric. The fact of the matter is that Cleveland and Akron are in the same metropolitan area, and is by far the largest in Ohio.

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

I guess you weren’t around when God passed out common sense!!! The bottom line is that there are cities in Akron’s MSA such as Northfield, Macedonia, Twinsburg, Sagamore Hills, Aurora and others that are FACTUALLY Cleveland suburbs. Akron is only 39 miles from Downtown Cleveland in the next county. So for you to suggest that Columbus/Dayton (75 miles) Columbus/Toledo (140 miles) and Cincy/Indy (100 miles) would be in the same boat as Cleveland/Akron shows a level of incompentence and cluelessness that I’ve rarely seen!!! Furthermore, what you fail to realize these govt definitions are very political. The reason that Cleveland and Akron are not in the same MSA Is because Akron officials don’t want to be part of the Cleveland MSA, pure and simple. It has very little to do commuting patterns or any other metric. The fact of the matter is that Cleveland and Akron are in the same metropolitan area, and is by far the largest in Ohio.

 

Twinsburg is in the middle of nowhere! I wouldn't call it a suburb. Any municipality where I've gotten lost and had to ask for directions from the little old lady at the cracker barrel gift shop, couldn't possibly be considered a suburb of any place.

 

 

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

I guess you weren’t around when God passed out common sense!!! The bottom line is that there are cities in Akron’s MSA such as Northfield, Macedonia, Twinsburg, Sagamore Hills, Aurora and others that are FACTUALLY Cleveland suburbs. Akron is only 39 miles from Downtown Cleveland in the next county. So for you to suggest that Columbus/Dayton (75 miles) Columbus/Toledo (140 miles) and Cincy/Indy (100 miles) would be in the same boat as Cleveland/Akron shows a level of incompentence and cluelessness that I’ve rarely seen!!! Furthermore, what you fail to realize these govt definitions are very political. The reason that Cleveland and Akron are not in the same MSA Is because Akron officials don’t want to be part of the Cleveland MSA, pure and simple. It has very little to do commuting patterns or any other metric. The fact of the matter is that Cleveland and Akron are in the same metropolitan area, and is by far the largest in Ohio.

 

Twinsburg is in the middle of nowhere! I wouldn't call it a suburb. Any municipality where I've gotten lost and had to ask for directions from the little old lady at the cracker barrel gift shop, couldn't possibly be considered a suburb of any place.

Seriously? Twinsburg is bordered by Solon to the north, Aurora to the east, Hudson to the south, and Macedonia to the west.  All these cities are Cleveland suburbs. Twinsburg has easy access to Downtown Cleveland via I-480 and is close to I-271 and I-80. It is far from being in the middle of nowhere. You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about!!!

Those places don't have local TV stations though, do they? What would they talk about on the nightly news in Steubenville?

 

"A cow was tipped over this morning and police are now looking for the perpetrator. More at 11..."

 

Steubenville does indeed have its own TV station - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTOV-TV

 

As does Zanesville - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHIZ-TV

 

And Lima - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLIO

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about!!!

 

Should I read these sentences as if you're screaming?  It's fun so I think I will.

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Oh right, I forgot, you're the expert on all things Cleveland.  Your quick Google Streetview and census synopsis explains everything about NE Ohio.

 

Let Columbus take on all of Northwest Ohio, they already take up large swaths of Franklin County.

Columbus city limits goes into Fairfield County! I always found it funny because there is Columbus city limit sign next to a cornfield! Been meaning to take a picture of it for years but will make sure to do so this year when the corn gets tall enough for full affect.:D

You obviously don’t know what you’re talking about!!!

 

Should I read these sentences as if you're screaming?  It's fun so I think I will.

Not screaming. Just pointing out some basic facts. That’s all!!

I think there is some fuzziness in the Cleveland MSA because Summit County is adjacent to Cuyahoga.  But we should use the census definitions.  I think NEO as a region is larger than any region in Ohio but that doesn't mean that Cleveland's metro is much different that the other to Cs.  Youngstown and Canton don't really have much to do with Cleveland.

 

I doubt that Akron does, either.

 

On these sorts of forums I see Clevelanders cling to Akron in a way Cincinnatians never do with Dayton.  Downtown Dayton is only 10 miles further from DT Cincinnati than Akron is from Cleveland.  Nobody in Cincinnati cares about Dayton, and vice-verse. 

 

I think there is some fuzziness in the Cleveland MSA because Summit County is adjacent to Cuyahoga.  But we should use the census definitions.  I think NEO as a region is larger than any region in Ohio but that doesn't mean that Cleveland's metro is much different that the other to Cs.  Youngstown and Canton don't really have much to do with Cleveland.

 

I doubt that Akron does, either.

 

On these sorts of forums I see Clevelanders cling to Akron in a way Cincinnatians never do with Dayton.  Downtown Dayton is only 10 miles further from DT Cincinnati than Akron is from Cleveland.  Nobody in Cincinnati cares about Dayton, and vice-verse.

 

Lived in Akron for 10 years and Cleveland for 15. There is a very small contingent of Akronians who shun Cleveland, likely because of affinity for the Pittsburgh Steelers. But While Akron has its own identity it’s clearly existing under the umbrella of Its bigger brother.

The reason Clevelanders dispute the way the population is counted for the MSA is that there are suburbs which are clearly more Cleveland suburbs than Akron suburbs which are within the Akron MSA, such as Hudson, Twinsburg, Macedonia, Richfield, Bath, etc.

Also, the difference is more like 20 miles (about 35 vs 55), not 10.  Regardless, the other factor that makes them feel closer is that Cleveland's population spreads to the south considerably because it can't go north.  Thus, there's not much of a gap between the urbanized areas of the two cities.  In fact, many suburbs are suburbs of both cities (true suburbs, not something like Middletown).

One thing is for sure, Cleveland's CSA is more urbanized by far than the other 2 C's.

 

Also, the difference is more like 20 miles (about 35 vs 55), not 10.  Regardless, the other factor that makes them feel closer is that Cleveland's population spreads to the south considerably because it can't go north.  Thus, there's not much of a gap between the urbanized areas of the two cities.  In fact, many suburbs are suburbs of both cities (true suburbs, not something like Middletown).

 

Just two things to this:

 

*Middletown is more like Lorain to Hamilton's Elyria, if that makes sense.

*The irony here is there is a considerable urbanized gap between Cleveland and Akron called the Cuyahoga Valley National Park.  I-77 and Route 8 (both the two main highway links to the metros) can feel downright rural in certain sections past Montrose or Stow all the way to the Turnpike.  Though it is true that there are suburbs shared by both cities.  Cincinnati and Dayton do not share suburbs (Middletown is the "line" for both but I wouldn't say either Cincinnati or Dayton "share" it).

I think there is some fuzziness in the Cleveland MSA because Summit County is adjacent to Cuyahoga.  But we should use the census definitions.  I think NEO as a region is larger than any region in Ohio but that doesn't mean that Cleveland's metro is much different that the other to Cs.  Youngstown and Canton don't really have much to do with Cleveland.

 

I doubt that Akron does, either.

 

On these sorts of forums I see Clevelanders cling to Akron in a way Cincinnatians never do with Dayton.  Downtown Dayton is only 10 miles further from DT Cincinnati than Akron is from Cleveland.  Nobody in Cincinnati cares about Dayton, and vice-verse. 

 

 

That's how I feel, and it's because I've lived in all 3-Cs and I understand the dynamics and culture in each CSA. Don't believe the Clevelanders on this forum. There isn't a very strong relationship between Cleveland and Akron. Folks in Akron are p!ssed that Clevelanders claim LeBron James as their own. When they won the championship, Akron was like, "You're Welcome, Cleveland."

 

From most places in metro Cleveland, it takes 15-20 minutes just to get to the highway. Physical distance as the  crow flies up there is less relevant because their highway system is so less efficient. Hell, in Columbus, you can get anywhere on the opposite end of the metro area, in 15 minutes.

 

Twinsburg is absolutely in the middle of nowhere. They have a friggin' Cracker Barrel. Now he's calling it a suburb of Solon and I suppose you could look at it like that but Solon itself is in fact an exurb of Cleveland.

 

I know that CSA is determined by the percentage of commuters from one city to the other. I think it's like 20 percent? Doesn't that mean 20% of people in metro Akron must commute to metro Cleveland for them to be in the same CSA? Whatever the case may be, I'll bet a 1 week ban that they barely made the cut, within 3 percentage points.

 

While living in Shaker and Cleveland Hts, the only Akron commuter I've ever heard of was a single person with a high skill job in short supply. Folks generally drive an hour to work when they choose to live in the country, not when they live in a decent-size metro such as Akron. It's all non-sense, there's just certain Clevelanders on this forum obsessed with proving their superiority and obtaining glory for their city.

 

They're so much more preoccupied with their size than forumers from other 2 Cs who speak on GDP/capita and their actual growth rates.

 

 

^ I don't agree. My parents are in their 80's, born and raised in Akron, lived in Fairlawn, and now live in Northern Stark County. They go to Cleveland all the time, probably a couple times a month. A broadway show, the orchestra, West side Market, Beachwood Place, the Cleveland Clinic, a pro sports game..all less than an hour away. There is no mental block that Cleveland is some far away place that they have nothing to do with or have disdain for. Most people I know in that area think that way...its no big deal at all to go to Cleveland and they admire and love it. It's not far, and has cooler things to do than Akron or Canton. It's like living in Naperville IL, and going into Chicago.

 

Half of the people in the flats partying on any given weekend are probably from Summit or Stark county. Akron/Canton definitely has a strong bond with Cleveland. Cleveland is the cultural, sports, entertainment and shopping capitol of the region, and people in Akron/Canton know it and appreciate it...they don't hate it.

I think workplace flows from county to county is a good indicator of regional connectivity and reliance. From the most recent 2009-2013 County-to-County workplace flow here are some key data points:

 

Montgomery county (Dayton) to Hamilton County (Cincy) 2,780 workers

Hamilton County to Montgomery County 1,469 workers

 

Summit County (Akron) to Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) 36,200 workers

Cuyahoga County to Summit County 16,505 workers

 

As you can clearly see from the above data based on simple commuting patterns Cleveland and Akron are interconnected and should be considered in the same MSA. In fact, Summit would be the third highest county for workers to commute to Cuyahoga County behind Lake and Lorain.

 

https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/commuting/commuting-flows.html

At what point does the census bureau consider a county to be part of an MSA.  Is there a percentage of commuting threshold?

Cincinnati and Dayton do not share suburbs (Middletown is the "line" for both but I wouldn't say either Cincinnati or Dayton "share" it).

 

My family lives in Mason and about 1/4 to a 1/3 of their social group commutes to jobs in the southern Dayton suburbs like Springboro. When I was growing up, I don't think my parents knew a single person who did this.

 

Thanks bwheats for providing that data source, I've never seen it before. Unfortunately it sorta disproves my anecdote. Although apparently Springboro is actually in Warren county, so it's not captured by this data. Perhaps we're just in a weird sweet spot for this kind of commuting.

Montgomery to Butler: 3,750

Montgomery to Warren: 7,000

Butler to Montgomery: 4,500

Warren to Montgomery: 13,000

I think the frustrations from each of the 3 Cs are as follows.

 

Cincinnati is currently the largest MSA based on current definitions of MSA and doesn't get enough credit from the other 2 for that.

 

Columbus is basically the same size as the Cleveland MSA and on track to pass up the Cincy MSA and doesn't get enough credit for that.

 

Cleveland is second largest MSA, but there's this whole Akron issue where there, as Bwheats posted is a much larger commuting connection between the two adjacent MSAs. This is reinforced with the freeway widening project currently ongoing on I-271 and Route 8, the shared Cleveland-Akron-Canton Media market as well as the fact that the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA is already the largest statistical area designation recognized by the office of Management and Budget. All the other Cs claim all the county's surrounding the central county, but not Cleveland. It seems that some people here want to act as if there is no connection between Akron and Cleveland, or at least want to minimize it for purposes of their own agendas, and that is where the aggravation comes from.

 

For the poster above to say Twinsburg is in the middle of nowhere, to me illustrates this well. If you look at a satellite map of Twinsburg, you can see that the only thing it is in the middle of, is a field of other suburbs hugging Route 8 and I-271 between Cleveland and Akron. It's absurd to say that since a city has a cracker barrel it is out in the middle of the country, though that freeway interchange given its topography does hide the fact that there are Mcmansion filled subdivisions throughout the surrounding hills. Also, I agree with you David that getting to freeways from the Heights areas does take a while, but that's only because residents in the middle of last century stood up to the powers that be and didn't let the Feds plow through their mansion lined neighborhoods and buidl the planned freeways like they did to the innercity to the west. It can suck sometimes, but I'm ultimately glad those freeways didn't get built.

 

Anyways, Cincinnati is the largest metro "Ohio" has, Cleveland is second largest as defined by OMB, but it just is not that simple.

Also, the difference is more like 20 miles (about 35 vs 55), not 10.  Regardless, the other factor that makes them feel closer is that Cleveland's population spreads to the south considerably because it can't go north.  Thus, there's not much of a gap between the urbanized areas of the two cities.  In fact, many suburbs are suburbs of both cities (true suburbs, not something like Middletown).

 

Agreed on Cleveland and Akron-and there would likely be no gap at all if it weren't for a large national park dropped between them. 

Cincinnati and Dayton do not share suburbs (Middletown is the "line" for both but I wouldn't say either Cincinnati or Dayton "share" it).

 

My family lives in Mason and about 1/4 to a 1/3 of their social group commutes to jobs in the southern Dayton suburbs like Springboro. When I was growing up, I don't think my parents knew a single person who did this.

 

Thanks bwheats for providing that data source, I've never seen it before. Unfortunately it sorta disproves my anecdote. Although apparently Springboro is actually in Warren county, so it's not captured by this data. Perhaps we're just in a weird sweet spot for this kind of commuting.

Montgomery to Butler: 3,750

Montgomery to Warren: 7,000

Butler to Montgomery: 4,500

Warren to Montgomery: 13,000

 

There's all sorts of weird boundaries that come up between Cin-Day, not the least of which involves Springboro and Franklin counting toward Cincinnati's MSA population. Then you also get stuff like ODOT's District 8, which includes Preble and Greene counties but not Montgomery County, so you have two different ODOT districts doing different work in the same metro area.

Also, the difference is more like 20 miles (about 35 vs 55), not 10.  Regardless, the other factor that makes them feel closer is that Cleveland's population spreads to the south considerably because it can't go north.  Thus, there's not much of a gap between the urbanized areas of the two cities.  In fact, many suburbs are suburbs of both cities (true suburbs, not something like Middletown).

 

Agreed on Cleveland and Akron-and there would likely be no gap at all if it weren't for a large national park dropped between them. 

I think the frustrations from each of the 3 Cs are as follows.

 

Cincinnati is currently the largest MSA based on current definitions of MSA and doesn't get enough credit from the other 2 for that.

 

Columbus is basically the same size as the Cleveland MSA and on track to pass up the Cincy MSA and doesn't get enough credit for that.

 

Cleveland is second largest MSA, but there's this whole Akron issue where there, as Bwheats posted is a much larger commuting connection between the two adjacent MSAs. This is reinforced with the freeway widening project currently ongoing on I-271 and Route 8, the shared Cleveland-Akron-Canton Media market as well as the fact that the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA is already the largest statistical area designation recognized by the office of Management and Budget. All the other Cs claim all the county's surrounding the central county, but not Cleveland. It seems that some people here want to act as if there is no connection between Akron and Cleveland, or at least want to minimize it for purposes of their own agendas, and that is where the aggravation comes from.

 

For the poster above to say Twinsburg is in the middle of nowhere, to me illustrates this well. If you look at a satellite map of Twinsburg, you can see that the only thing it is in the middle of, is a field of other suburbs hugging Route 8 and I-271 between Cleveland and Akron. It's absurd to say that since a city has a cracker barrel it is out in the middle of the country, though that freeway interchange given its topography does hide the fact that there are Mcmansion filled subdivisions throughout the surrounding hills. Also, I agree with you David that getting to freeways from the Heights areas does take a while, but that's only because residents in the middle of last century stood up to the powers that be and didn't let the Feds plow through their mansion lined neighborhoods and buidl the planned freeways like they did to the innercity to the west. It can suck sometimes, but I'm ultimately glad those freeways didn't get built.

 

Anyways, Cincinnati is the largest metro "Ohio" has, Cleveland is second largest as defined by OMB, but it just is not that simple.

 

Fair enough, I just think it's misleading to call Twinsburg a suburb of Akron and a suburb of Cleveland. Unless we have different definitions of 'suburb.'

 

After reviewing a satellite image, that part of the region does look less developed from the highway than it really is.

 

I was half-joking about Cracker Barrel but they do tend to be in the boonies.

Also, the difference is more like 20 miles (about 35 vs 55), not 10.  Regardless, the other factor that makes them feel closer is that Cleveland's population spreads to the south considerably because it can't go north.  Thus, there's not much of a gap between the urbanized areas of the two cities.  In fact, many suburbs are suburbs of both cities (true suburbs, not something like Middletown).

 

Agreed on Cleveland and Akron-and there would likely be no gap at all if it weren't for a large national park dropped between them. 

I think the frustrations from each of the 3 Cs are as follows.

 

Cincinnati is currently the largest MSA based on current definitions of MSA and doesn't get enough credit from the other 2 for that.

 

Columbus is basically the same size as the Cleveland MSA and on track to pass up the Cincy MSA and doesn't get enough credit for that.

 

Cleveland is second largest MSA, but there's this whole Akron issue where there, as Bwheats posted is a much larger commuting connection between the two adjacent MSAs. This is reinforced with the freeway widening project currently ongoing on I-271 and Route 8, the shared Cleveland-Akron-Canton Media market as well as the fact that the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA is already the largest statistical area designation recognized by the office of Management and Budget. All the other Cs claim all the county's surrounding the central county, but not Cleveland. It seems that some people here want to act as if there is no connection between Akron and Cleveland, or at least want to minimize it for purposes of their own agendas, and that is where the aggravation comes from.

 

For the poster above to say Twinsburg is in the middle of nowhere, to me illustrates this well. If you look at a satellite map of Twinsburg, you can see that the only thing it is in the middle of, is a field of other suburbs hugging Route 8 and I-271 between Cleveland and Akron. It's absurd to say that since a city has a cracker barrel it is out in the middle of the country, though that freeway interchange given its topography does hide the fact that there are Mcmansion filled subdivisions throughout the surrounding hills. Also, I agree with you David that getting to freeways from the Heights areas does take a while, but that's only because residents in the middle of last century stood up to the powers that be and didn't let the Feds plow through their mansion lined neighborhoods and buidl the planned freeways like they did to the innercity to the west. It can suck sometimes, but I'm ultimately glad those freeways didn't get built.

 

Anyways, Cincinnati is the largest metro "Ohio" has, Cleveland is second largest as defined by OMB, but it just is not that simple.

 

Fair enough, I just think it's misleading to call Twinsburg a suburb of Akron and a suburb of Cleveland. Unless we have different definitions of 'suburb.'

 

After reviewing a satellite image, that part of the region does look less developed from the highway than it really is.

 

I was half-joking about Cracker Barrel but they do tend to be in the boonies.

 

What is your definition of suburb? They are typically bedroom communities or smaller municipalities on the outskirts of major cities correct?

Is Lancaster a suburb of Columbus?

With respect to that argument, I'd say Shaker Hts is a suburb of Cleveland. Parma and even solon but definitely not Twinsburg.

 

Is Lancaster a suburb of Columbus?

 

Heh. They're about the same distance from the core of their respective metros.

 

 

CSA - MSA are nothing more than governmental distinctions attempting to define a metropolitan area. And while each definition may work just fine for cities in isolation like Denver or Columbus it doesn't work well for cities like Minneapolis (St. Paul) or Cleveland (Akron).

 

There are those on this board who are fine with using some counties (Lorain, Lake and Geauga) but not Medina, Summit or Portage. As we have read, they have their reasons, valid or not. Politics/opinions always enter the discussion.

 

So government has their definitions and people have theirs. It can be complicated, messy even. But for me it's not. My definition of a metropolitan area is the home county followed by all CONTIGUOUS counties. Simple as that. So with all due apologies to Akron the Cleveland metropolitan area includes the counties of Cuyahoga, Lorain, Medina, Summit, Portage, Geauga and Lake. 

 

 

 

 

It should be noted that the Cincinnati metro can't grow westward to any great degree because of the lack of sewers in the western third of Hamilton County.  It can only trickle eastward and southward because of the hills.  The main direction of its sprawl is northward.  Yes, because Dayton is in that direction, but more so because sewers and flat land abound in Butler County. 

Is Lancaster a suburb of Columbus?

 

No, too many miles of undeveloped land. The semi-rural stretches actually begin just southeast of Bexley.

The Cleveland/Akron MSA/CSA debate is very reminiscent of the San Francisco/San Jose one. The Census Bureau splits SF and SJ into separate MSAs, but both are part of the Bay Area. Furthermore, the Bay Area CSA definition is more extensive than what anyone would comfortably call the Bay Area. Just as Stockton and Santa Cruz aren't part of the common definition of the Bay Area, Canton and Sandusky aren't part of the common definition of Greater Cleveland. In both cases, the most intuitive definition of the "metro" area lies somewhere between the MSA and the CSA.