With respect to that argument, I'd say Shaker Hts is a suburb of Cleveland. Parma and even solon but definitely not Twinsburg.

 

I'm sorry, but you're absolutely wrong here.  Twinsburg is absolutely a suburb of Cleveland.  It has grown from 4,000 people to nearly 20,000 in the last 50 years, and not because it's a self sustaining metropolis.  It is clearly a bedroom community for the Cleveland metro area.

 

I think your definition of "suburb" is strange if you have to "concede" Shaker Heights and say "even Solon".  Shaker Heights is an inner ring suburb and would have long ago been subsumed into the central city in many other places.  Solon is pretty much a textbook suburb, just like Westlake or Strongsville.

 

Just take a look at a satellite image of Twinsburg.  All of the development west/northwest of the square is "cul-de-sac-ville" as far as the eye can see, as well as on both sides of 91 all the way to the Solon border.  Even Aurora is a suburb of Cleveland, 5 miles east of Twinsburg.  I know a lot of people who commute from there, and the amount of expensive housing that has been built there follows the typical outer suburban pattern.

Twinsburg is certainly a Cleveland suburb. It wouldn’t really exist otherwise.

 

There are 10,173 jobs of people who live there (a person could have more than one job). (self employment and postal service excluded).

 

Of these jobs, 15% are in the city of Cleveland, 9.7% in Twinsburg, 9.4% in Solon (part of Cleveland economy for sure), and 3.4% work in the city of Akron, and 3.2% in Beachwood.

 

Place of work, 2015 Count Share

Cleveland city, OH 1,535 15.1%

Twinsburg city, OH 984 9.7%

Solon city, OH 957 9.4%

Akron city, OH 344 3.4%

Beachwood city, OH 322 3.2%

Mayfield Heights city, OH 246 2.4%

Aurora city, OH 213 2.1%

Macedonia city, OH 211 2.1%

Hudson city, OH 210 2.1%

Bedford Heights city, OH 204 2.0%

Independence city, OH 175 1.7%

Streetsboro city, OH 158 1.6%

Warrensville Heights city, OH 137 1.3%

Garfield Heights city, OH 119 1.2%

Oakwood village, OH 119 1.2%

 

From a county perspective,

 

54% work in Cuyahoga County, 24.5% work in Summit County and 5.6% work in Portage County.

 

Source:US Census Bureau.

 

Bottom line:  Twinsburg is a Cleveland suburb through and through.

 

I have lived in Cleve Heights, I have lived in Columbus and Dayton at points too and obviously, I live in Cincy.

 

Citywise, Cleveland has just a bigger feel than the other cities. It feels very urban when you are in the city. Akron feels like a part of Cleveland especially if you live on the East side of Cleveland. If you live in Westlake or Avon or Lakewood, Akron is like another world away. When I was living in Cleveland though, a drive to Akron or Cuyahoga Falls was just as easy as a drive downtown to Cleveland. In that area, it felt that there were just a lot more people around and it had a large city feel to it.

 

Cincy had a lot of urban characteristics and a large city feel to it but not quite to the same level of Cleveland. In Cincy, things seemed more condensed and closer together from an urban standpoint but just a bit smaller. Cincy had a lot more distinct neighborhoods with their own unique character than what I found in Cleveland. Cincinnati felt like more of a bunch of smaller neighborhoods coming together to make the whole, but the character was very unique. It definitely felt like a pretty large urban city, but a little smaller than what Cleveland felt.

 

Columbus was always a new city. There was not the character of Cincy or Columbus and I felt that it had a lot of just cheap sprawl. It never felt very urban to me and it just seemed like the area just spread out around the edges. You see this with Marysville pretty much becoming a suburb of Columbus now whereas 30 years ago it was the cornfields. Even though it has a comparable number of people to Cincy or Cleve it just feels distinctly smaller than the other two cities because it is so much more spread out.

I have lived in Cleve Heights, I have lived in Columbus and Dayton at points too and obviously, I live in Cincy.

 

Citywise, Cleveland has just a bigger feel than the other cities. It feels very urban when you are in the city. Akron feels like a part of Cleveland especially if you live on the East side of Cleveland. If you live in Westlake or Avon or Lakewood, Akron is like another world away. When I was living in Cleveland though, a drive to Akron or Cuyahoga Falls was just as easy as a drive downtown to Cleveland. In that area, it felt that there were just a lot more people around and it had a large city feel to it.

 

Cincy had a lot of urban characteristics and a large city feel to it but not quite to the same level of Cleveland. In Cincy, things seemed more condensed and closer together from an urban standpoint but just a bit smaller. Cincy had a lot more distinct neighborhoods with their own unique character than what I found in Cleveland. Cincinnati felt like more of a bunch of smaller neighborhoods coming together to make the whole, but the character was very unique. It definitely felt like a pretty large urban city, but a little smaller than what Cleveland felt.

 

Columbus was always a new city. There was not the character of Cincy or Columbus and I felt that it had a lot of just cheap sprawl. It never felt very urban to me and it just seemed like the area just spread out around the edges. You see this with Marysville pretty much becoming a suburb of Columbus now whereas 30 years ago it was the cornfields. Even though it has a comparable number of people to Cincy or Cleve it just feels distinctly smaller than the other two cities because it is so much more spread out.

 

In 2010 Columbus' urban area was 16% more dense than Cleveland's and 30% more dense than Cincinnati's. Of course Columbus had the smallest urban area of the three, but almost the entirety of its growth has been either in the urban area or in areas that will extend it in 2020's counts. All three Cs will have very similar urban area populations then, too.

I have lived in Cleve Heights, I have lived in Columbus and Dayton at points too and obviously, I live in Cincy.

 

Citywise, Cleveland has just a bigger feel than the other cities. It feels very urban when you are in the city. Akron feels like a part of Cleveland especially if you live on the East side of Cleveland. If you live in Westlake or Avon or Lakewood, Akron is like another world away. When I was living in Cleveland though, a drive to Akron or Cuyahoga Falls was just as easy as a drive downtown to Cleveland. In that area, it felt that there were just a lot more people around and it had a large city feel to it.

 

Cincy had a lot of urban characteristics and a large city feel to it but not quite to the same level of Cleveland. In Cincy, things seemed more condensed and closer together from an urban standpoint but just a bit smaller. Cincy had a lot more distinct neighborhoods with their own unique character than what I found in Cleveland. Cincinnati felt like more of a bunch of smaller neighborhoods coming together to make the whole, but the character was very unique. It definitely felt like a pretty large urban city, but a little smaller than what Cleveland felt.

 

Columbus was always a new city. There was not the character of Cincy or Columbus and I felt that it had a lot of just cheap sprawl. It never felt very urban to me and it just seemed like the area just spread out around the edges. You see this with Marysville pretty much becoming a suburb of Columbus now whereas 30 years ago it was the cornfields. Even though it has a comparable number of people to Cincy or Cleve it just feels distinctly smaller than the other two cities because it is so much more spread out.

 

In 2010 Columbus' urban area was 16% more dense than Cleveland's and 30% more dense than Cincinnati's. Of course Columbus had the smallest urban area of the three, but almost the entirety of its growth has been either in the urban area or in areas that will extend it in 2020's counts. All three Cs will have very similar urban area populations then, too.

 

Brutus was speaking about how the cities feel in terms of 'big city' vibe and general environment. I haven't lived in all three of the C's but I have been to all and I certainly agree with his assessment. Cleveland certainly has a big city feel--the massive infrastructure, wide avenues, far reach--east to west, etc.  Cincinnati has very nice urban neighborhoods, many of which are more compact than [most of] Cleveland's.  The hills and topography in Cincinnati certainly give it charm and uniqueness. But Columbus lacks a sense of 'place'. It has an unremarkable downtown, and then just suburban sprawl for miles and miles.

Here is a map based on the population density of Ohio. NEO is clearly the most populated area of Ohio. MSA's vs. CSA's and how they are calculated are irrelevant to me. I only see red. Continue the debate...

It should be noted that the Cincinnati metro can't grow westward to any great degree because of the lack of sewers in the western third of Hamilton County.  It can only trickle eastward and southward because of the hills.  The main direction of its sprawl is northward.  Yes, because Dayton is in that direction, but more so because sewers and flat land abound in Butler County. 

 

And Dayton's growth is South and Eastward. Either it is near the Air Force Base or the growth is moving down to Springboro and Franklin.

 

the growth around Austin Landing is amazing and also pouring over into Springboro. My sister in law lives in Springboro and her and her husband commute to Dayton so they are part of this statistic too.

^ A lot of this comes from a combination of the routing of 675, the fact that you can live in Warren or Greene and pay those counties’ taxes, and the fact that nearly everything in west Dayton is not desirable to build next to. I could never see some new suburb pop up just west of Trotwood, or god forbid west of Drexel, where developers could expect to get any sort of premium for those homes.

"It should be noted that the Cincinnati metro can't grow westward to any great degree because of the lack of sewers in the western third of Hamilton County."

 

Can sewers not be built there? Is it a water table issue?

Columbus was always a new city. There was not the character of Cincy or Columbus and I felt that it had a lot of just cheap sprawl. It never felt very urban to me and it just seemed like the area just spread out around the edges. You see this with Marysville pretty much becoming a suburb of Columbus now whereas 30 years ago it was the cornfields. Even though it has a comparable number of people to Cincy or Cleve it just feels distinctly smaller than the other two cities because it is so much more spread out.

 

Much of this observation seems...strange.  And I've also lived in Cincinnati, Dayton, and Columbus so these are a couple of little notes...

 

1). Clearly the old city of Columbus has character.  From German Village all the way through Clintonville, that is a large swath of land with distinctive urban neighborhoods and beautiful architecture.  If you actually went to Ohio State (presumably due to your screenname), you'd know how walkable/urban the University District is in Columbus.

 

2). Every Ohio city has cheap sprawl.  Green Township to Mason is "cheap sprawl" if we're going by comparisons with Hilliard to Dublin.  But as pointed out before, Columbus sprawl is quite dense (for Ohio standards) so I disagree entirely that it's "spread out."  Metro Cincinnati is "spread out" from Verona to Monroe; Columbus abruptly ends as shown by that population density map above.  Now if you're trying to say Metro Columbus "feels newer" than the other 2C's, that's obvious due to the continued growth rate.  The contradiction of "spread out" versus "feeling smaller" is also strange as generally sprawlier metropolitan areas "feel" larger than condensed ones.  Atlanta vs. Phoenix, for example...or perhaps more locally, Cincinnati vs. Columbus.  Perhaps you mean that Columbus sprawl abruptly ends due to either Big Darby Creek watersheds or whatever else, thus making the metropolitan area feel smaller than the other 2C's and that would be fine point.

 

3). Agreed on Marysville being cornfields 30 years ago...but so was West Chester, Mason, Lebanon, and anything around Hamilton.  Every metropolitan area has exurban sprawlburbs that blow up out of nowhere.  Columbus has more due to the growth rate.

I give Brutus_buckeye so much credit because like me, he's actually had long stints in all of the 3-Cs instead of just spewing data from the census bureau or analyzing Google Maps satellite images. Living in and experiencing cities is much different from reading textbooks or researching census data; it's much more attuned to reality.

 

However, I personally tend to agree with ColDayMan on the points he made. That isn't to say I'm right or wrong, it's just my opinion.

 

I'm not sure where all you have explored (living on OSU campus for most people, means living in a bubble but as an active member of this site I'm sure you've been around the city quite a bit - just not sure where all you've been and what point in time you spent there.) Bexley, Olde Town East, German Village, Victorian Village, Italian Village are all remarkable gems. Columbus, IMO does have a lot of character, it just isn't branded well. It's certainly a city with an identity but it's a young city still struggling to figure out what that identity is, exactly.

 

Cleveland does have a big city feel but IMO it's mostly because they have trains and a fairly high number of older high-rises. Columbus street widths don't seem any different from Cleveland's but honestly, narrow streets are pedestrian-friendly and therefore a valid  big-city concern. IMO, OTR wins for "big city feel." It's the ratio of street width to building height/density in favor of the pedestrian that makes for a big city feel. Maybe that's just me.  If you disagree I respect that.

 

I get where you're coming from but with all the new large-scale construction in Columbus that you probably aren't aware of since you graduated college, I think the only thing that would give Cleveland a big-city feel over Columbus is the Rapid and major league sports franchises. Actually, their institutions would give them a leg-up. The art museum and Rock Hall. The other 2 C's don't have anything comparable.

 

I really wish Columbusites would come to their senses and demand something like The Rapid and I've been racking my brain trying to understand why they're so apathetic towards public transit and rail. I think it's because the circumference of Columbus' outerbelt is so small. You can essentially get anywhere from point A to point B in the metro in 20 minutes or less. It wasn't even intended but it's small circumference is responsible for effective smart growth boundaries. In Columbus, you literally see urbanization just instantly turn to cornfields.  That's why you hear people mention that it's may be suburban overall but it is compact.

 

NEO's highway system enables the worst sprawl imaginable.

 

Cincinnati's outer belt is way too wide.

 

P.S. You're f*cking nuts if you think Twinsburg is a 'suburb' of Cleveland.' First I heard that the definition of a suburb is a bedroom community on the outskirts, and then I heard about how Twinsburg is so self-sustaining (which it would have to be, being so far away from Cleveland.) Wtf, man. Seriously? A self-sustaining suburb of Cleveland would be Cleveland Heights. IMO, Twinsburg is beyond being an exurb. It has strong commute patterns between itself and Cleveland but to me it's still basically a self-sustaining city between Akron and Cleveland. Calling it a Cleveland bedroom community is so beyond ridiculous.

I contend that this must be one of the top ten nerdiest threads in the history of the internet (and I hope it never ends.)

I can't believe 'Cheap sprawl' in Columbus was just conjured up. Like both Cleveland and metro Cleveland's building stock isn't painfully minimalist, boring and cheap as hell in terms of building materials and design. Talk about lack of identity. I'd absolutely argue that Columbus and especially Cincinnati, have way more architectural integrity and personality.

 

Almost all of Cleveland's neighborhoods looks exactly the same. In Columbus and Cincinnati, you could look at a picture of the streetscape and identify what neighborhood it is in.

 

Any picture of a very wide street with nothing but grassy prospects in the background could easily be identified by most as a brownfield owned by the land bank on the east side of Cleveland, which no one is interested in buying into even though they could own the land for free if only they built  something on it.

 

 

Almost all of Cleveland's neighborhoods looks exactly the same. In Columbus and Cincinnati, you could look at a picture of the streetscape and identify what neighborhood it is in.

 

 

Ohio City, Little Italy, UC, and East Cleveland are pretty easy to point out...

Tremont and Shaker Square are recognizable too.

And Edgewater.  And downtown. ?

P.S. You're f*cking nuts if you think Twinsburg is a 'suburb' of Cleveland.' First I heard that the definition of a suburb is a bedroom community on the outskirts, and then I heard about how Twinsburg is so self-sustaining (which it would have to be, being so far away from Cleveland.) Wtf, man. Seriously? A self-sustaining suburb of Cleveland would be Cleveland Heights. IMO, Twinsburg is beyond being an exurb. It has strong commute patterns between itself and Cleveland but to me it's still basically a self-sustaining city between Akron and Cleveland. Calling it a Cleveland bedroom community is so beyond ridiculous.

 

Cleveland Heights isn't self-sustaining, there is little to no industry, which typically provides a tax base for a city. Twinsburg actually has Cleveland Heights beat in that regard.

 

David, what is your reasoning for saying Twinsburg is not a suburb of Cleveland? If Twinsburg isn't, but Solon is, what is the distinction? You have not explained that well.

 

I have lived several years in Cincinnati, six years in Columbus and the rest in Cleveland, so while not an expert on all things of any of the 3 Cs, I think I have some decent insight on all three.

 

Columbus doesn't get enough credit for the development happening really all along HIgh Street North of I-71 up to Clintonville. Cleveland and Cincinnati don't really have an extended corridor that is as intact as that. Lorain Ave will probably get there eventually and maybe Detroit. Euclid Avenue could get back to that as well at some point. Old Columbus has some pretty cool neighborhoods, as well and I think when people think of Columbus' neighborhoods they think about the development that occurred 1955 on, which is sprawly, with super wide streets (161, Morse Road anyone), but really as mentioned that type of development is prevalent in every American city.

 

My biggest issue with the whole Akron isn't Cleveland thing, is that when looking at the MSA populations around 2.1 million for Cleveland, some people act as if there is not an additional 700,000 plus people just over the Cuyahoga County line, which can't be said for any of the other two MSAs. As Florida Guy showed with his map, despite the relatively stagnant population growth that region of the state remains the biggest by a large margin and that is not even taking into account all the counties the OMB counts as Cleveland-Akron-Canton, nor the Youngstown area, all of which pushes things to 4.2 Million, but that is another story.

P.S. You're f*cking nuts if you think Twinsburg is a 'suburb' of Cleveland.' First I heard that the definition of a suburb is a bedroom community on the outskirts, and then I heard about how Twinsburg is so self-sustaining (which it would have to be, being so far away from Cleveland.) Wtf, man. Seriously? A self-sustaining suburb of Cleveland would be Cleveland Heights. IMO, Twinsburg is beyond being an exurb. It has strong commute patterns between itself and Cleveland but to me it's still basically a self-sustaining city between Akron and Cleveland. Calling it a Cleveland bedroom community is so beyond ridiculous.

 

You're awfully sure of yourself for knowing nothing about Twinsburg.  I know many people that live there and have lived in the area my entire life.  It is 100% a suburb.  The only argument I could see is whether it is more of a suburb of Cleveland or Akron.

 

https://patch.com/ohio/twinsburg/cleveland-magazine-rates-the-suburbs-where-does-twinsburg-rank

 

I still have no idea what your definition of "suburb" is, but it seems to be pretty non-standard.

 

Also, here is a discussion by people looking for a suburb of Cleveland to live in:

 

http://www.city-data.com/forum/cleveland/882556-cleveland-suburb-fits-me.html

Why even try to reason with David?  This is the same guy who thinks UDF is a Michelin-rated restaurant.

 

 

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Oh right, I forgot, you're the expert on all things Cleveland.  Your quick Google Streetview and census synopsis explains everything about NE Ohio.

 

Let Columbus take on all of Northwest Ohio, they already take up large swaths of Franklin County.

 

It takes up less than half of Franklin County, something like 40%.  And I never claimed to be an expert, just that people should stick to what they can prove, not what they believe. 

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

I guess you weren’t around when God passed out common sense!!! The bottom line is that there are cities in Akron’s MSA such as Northfield, Macedonia, Twinsburg, Sagamore Hills, Aurora and others that are FACTUALLY Cleveland suburbs. Akron is only 39 miles from Downtown Cleveland in the next county. So for you to suggest that Columbus/Dayton (75 miles) Columbus/Toledo (140 miles) and Cincy/Indy (100 miles) would be in the same boat as Cleveland/Akron shows a level of incompentence and cluelessness that I’ve rarely seen!!! Furthermore, what you fail to realize these govt definitions are very political. The reason that Cleveland and Akron are not in the same MSA Is because Akron officials don’t want to be part of the Cleveland MSA, pure and simple. It has very little to do commuting patterns or any other metric. The fact of the matter is that Cleveland and Akron are in the same metropolitan area, and is by far the largest in Ohio.

 

You guys do know I was being sarcastic, right?  And no, they are not in the same metro.  The only organization that sets those is the Census, not people on an internet forum. 

P.S. You're f*cking nuts if you think Twinsburg is a 'suburb' of Cleveland.' First I heard that the definition of a suburb is a bedroom community on the outskirts, and then I heard about how Twinsburg is so self-sustaining (which it would have to be, being so far away from Cleveland.) Wtf, man. Seriously? A self-sustaining suburb of Cleveland would be Cleveland Heights. IMO, Twinsburg is beyond being an exurb. It has strong commute patterns between itself and Cleveland but to me it's still basically a self-sustaining city between Akron and Cleveland. Calling it a Cleveland bedroom community is so beyond ridiculous.

 

You're awfully sure of yourself for knowing nothing about Twinsburg.  I know many people that live there and have lived in the area my entire life.  It is 100% a suburb.  The only argument I could see is whether it is more of a suburb of Cleveland or Akron.

 

https://patch.com/ohio/twinsburg/cleveland-magazine-rates-the-suburbs-where-does-twinsburg-rank

 

I still have no idea what your definition of "suburb" is, but it seems to be pretty non-standard.

 

Also, here is a discussion by people looking for a suburb of Cleveland to live in:

 

http://www.city-data.com/forum/cleveland/882556-cleveland-suburb-fits-me.html

 

Twinsburg is a suburb. I've had two friends in the last year move back to NEO (they work downtown). They wanted to stay on the east side and they like Twinsburg's newish house stock. I grew up in University Heights. We almost moved to Twinsburg in the early 90s. My parents looked at Twinsburg as a cheaper Solon.

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Oh right, I forgot, you're the expert on all things Cleveland.  Your quick Google Streetview and census synopsis explains everything about NE Ohio.

 

Let Columbus take on all of Northwest Ohio, they already take up large swaths of Franklin County.

 

It takes up less than half of Franklin County, something like 40%.  And I never claimed to be an expert, just that people should stick to what they can prove, not what they believe. 

 

Adhering to your own advice would be a good start.

Columbus was always a new city. There was not the character of Cincy or Columbus and I felt that it had a lot of just cheap sprawl. It never felt very urban to me and it just seemed like the area just spread out around the edges. You see this with Marysville pretty much becoming a suburb of Columbus now whereas 30 years ago it was the cornfields. Even though it has a comparable number of people to Cincy or Cleve it just feels distinctly smaller than the other two cities because it is so much more spread out.

 

Much of this observation seems...strange.  And I've also lived in Cincinnati, Dayton, and Columbus so these are a couple of little notes...

 

1). Clearly the old city of Columbus has character.  From German Village all the way through Clintonville, that is a large swath of land with distinctive urban neighborhoods and beautiful architecture.  If you actually went to Ohio State (presumably due to your screenname), you'd know how walkable/urban the University District is in Columbus.

 

2). Every Ohio city has cheap sprawl.  Green Township to Mason is "cheap sprawl" if we're going by comparisons with Hilliard to Dublin.  But as pointed out before, Columbus sprawl is quite dense (for Ohio standards) so I disagree entirely that it's "spread out."  Metro Cincinnati is "spread out" from Verona to Monroe; Columbus abruptly ends as shown by that population density map above.  Now if you're trying to say Metro Columbus "feels newer" than the other 2C's, that's obvious due to the continued growth rate.  The contradiction of "spread out" versus "feeling smaller" is also strange as generally sprawlier metropolitan areas "feel" larger than condensed ones.  Atlanta vs. Phoenix, for example...or perhaps more locally, Cincinnati vs. Columbus.  Perhaps you mean that Columbus sprawl abruptly ends due to either Big Darby Creek watersheds or whatever else, thus making the metropolitan area feel smaller than the other 2C's and that would be fine point.

 

3). Agreed on Marysville being cornfields 30 years ago...but so was West Chester, Mason, Lebanon, and anything around Hamilton.  Every metropolitan area has exurban sprawlburbs that blow up out of nowhere.  Columbus has more due to the growth rate.

 

Columbus' 1950 core, which was the peak of density in most cities, is about the same area size as Cleveland/Cincinnati's current city limits.  I have never understood the claims that Columbus has a lack of urbanity in that regard.  Yes, it has more newer development than Cleveland for sure, but it's actually not the most sprawled city/metro in Ohio.  There was a study I read a few years back, I believe from Brookings, that had Cincinnati as having the most low-density sprawl.  The entire Cin-Day argument pretty much relies on that sprawl.  Columbus' urban development is compact, but its density at most levels is comparable or even greater than the other 2-Cs.  Its immediate downtown is still weak, but it will more than double its population before 2020 just since 2010.  A lot of the recently-announced development there continues to get taller. 

The observation was less about density than it was about "character". (though density plays into urban fabric and character).  And being a very suburban-like city, Columbus lacks the historical and urban character that both Cleveland and Cincinnati have.

P.S. You're f*cking nuts if you think Twinsburg is a 'suburb' of Cleveland.' First I heard that the definition of a suburb is a bedroom community on the outskirts, and then I heard about how Twinsburg is so self-sustaining (which it would have to be, being so far away from Cleveland.) Wtf, man. Seriously? A self-sustaining suburb of Cleveland would be Cleveland Heights. IMO, Twinsburg is beyond being an exurb. It has strong commute patterns between itself and Cleveland but to me it's still basically a self-sustaining city between Akron and Cleveland. Calling it a Cleveland bedroom community is so beyond ridiculous.

 

Cleveland Heights isn't self-sustaining, there is little to no industry, which typically provides a tax base for a city. Twinsburg actually has Cleveland Heights beat in that regard.

 

David, what is your reasoning for saying Twinsburg is not a suburb of Cleveland? If Twinsburg isn't, but Solon is, what is the distinction? You have not explained that well.

 

I have lived several years in Cincinnati, six years in Columbus and the rest in Cleveland, so while not an expert on all things of any of the 3 Cs, I think I have some decent insight on all three.

 

Columbus doesn't get enough credit for the development happening really all along HIgh Street North of I-71 up to Clintonville. Cleveland and Cincinnati don't really have an extended corridor that is as intact as that. Lorain Ave will probably get there eventually and maybe Detroit. Euclid Avenue could get back to that as well at some point. Old Columbus has some pretty cool neighborhoods, as well and I think when people think of Columbus' neighborhoods they think about the development that occurred 1955 on, which is sprawly, with super wide streets (161, Morse Road anyone), but really as mentioned that type of development is prevalent in every American city.

 

My biggest issue with the whole Akron isn't Cleveland thing, is that when looking at the MSA populations around 2.1 million for Cleveland, some people act as if there is not an additional 700,000 plus people just over the Cuyahoga County line, which can't be said for any of the other two MSAs. As Florida Guy showed with his map, despite the relatively stagnant population growth that region of the state remains the biggest by a large margin and that is not even taking into account all the counties the OMB counts as Cleveland-Akron-Canton, nor the Youngstown area, all of which pushes things to 4.2 Million, but that is another story.

 

High Street from Merion Village to Clintonville is easily Ohio's most urban corridor.  There is infill development along its entire length, and it won't be long before there isn't a 1-2 story building (beyond the historic ones) or vacant lot anywhere along its stretch, at least not north of 70.  Some people criticize the city for focusing so much on High, but it IS the main north-south non-highway artery and has always been the heart of the city.  But there are definitely lots of urban neighborhoods and lots of development projects off of High Street.  Here is the list I have: http://allcolumbusdata.com/?page_id=4618

You stated something inaccurate; I corrected this.  Akron is not "Cleveland Metro" but it is Cleveland-Akron CSA' date=' which is separate.....[/quote']

 

Of course Akron is part of Cleveland. "Cleveland" or whatever you want to call it--greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area, etc.--is indeed the seven county area--Cuyahoga and the six surrounding counties--at least.  So since  the US government in Washington at Akron's urging--considers Akron a separate MSA called "Akron MSA" and labels other counties as "Cleveland MSA", then "Cleveland" (or greater cleveland/metro cleveland/Cleveland area) includes both the cities of Akron and Cleveland (and Euclid and Parma and Warrensille, etc.).  If you want to talk CSA's then I believe the government includes Canton as well as part of Cleveland. So if one wants REAL cleveland data, one must add "Cleveland MSA" and "Akron MSA" to get the more accurate Metropolitan Cleveland number.

 

So if we get to just make up what MSA's we like, can I say that Columbus includes Dayton and Toledo?  Cincinnati can have Indianapolis, maybe?

 

Oh right, I forgot, you're the expert on all things Cleveland.  Your quick Google Streetview and census synopsis explains everything about NE Ohio.

 

Let Columbus take on all of Northwest Ohio, they already take up large swaths of Franklin County.

 

It takes up less than half of Franklin County, something like 40%.  And I never claimed to be an expert, just that people should stick to what they can prove, not what they believe. 

 

Adhering to your own advice would be a good start.

 

Columbus is about 223 square miles.  Franklin County is 544 square miles.  That's 40.99%.  It's actually a bit less than that because part of the 223 is in another county, so around 40%, as I said.  Run the numbers yourself.

The observation was less about density than it was about "character". (though density plays into urban fabric and character).  And being a very suburban-like city, Columbus lacks the historical and urban character that both Cleveland and Cincinnati have.

 

Minimum, Columbus has 80 square miles of solid old urban city because that's how much was already built by 1950.  I guess beyond that it just depends on what you would characterize as being suburban.  Low density?  Style of development?  Age of development?  All of the above? 

The observation was less about density than it was about "character". (though density plays into urban fabric and character).  And being a very suburban-like city, Columbus lacks the historical and urban character that both Cleveland and Cincinnati have.

 

Now that is just false.  Columbus historic and urban character is quite clear in the old city.  I'd argue Columbus has the second most intact contiguous historic core in the state, behind Cincinnati.  Downtown being the clear exception, of course.

^That's a pretty big exception to take! When people visit a city, it is the downtown they see; also its the downtown that for most cities is the true business and government core.

I agree with ColDayMan that Columbus has a lot more urban character than it gets credit for.  However, I believe it gets a bad rap for the same reasons that also work to it's advantage.  When the city limits cover many suburban areas (I would say that by land area 3/4 of the city is suburban) then people will look at the city as a whole through that lens, which isn't always fair.  However, as far as things like poverty and crime stats go, it works in favor of a city like Columbus in that it makes it look like it has less problems than other cities when in reality that may not be true.

I agree with ColDayMan that Columbus has a lot more urban character than it gets credit for.  However, I believe it gets a bad rap for the same reasons that also work to it's advantage.  When the city limits cover many suburban areas (I would say that by land area 3/4 of the city is suburban) then people will look at the city as a whole through that lens, which isn't always fair.  However, as far as things like poverty and crime stats go, it works in favor of a city like Columbus in that it makes it look like it has less problems than other cities when in reality that may not be true.

 

Just did a quick calculation using the American Survey info from the Census.  For the 1950 core of Columbus only, 35.3% of all buildings were built prior to 1940.  That's higher than all the post-1960 period combined.  The 1950s were the second biggest period, at 18.5% of all buildings, so extending the range to 1959, the total jumps to almost 68%.  So more than 2/3rds of the core buildings are about 60 years old or older. 

^That's a pretty big exception to take! When people visit a city, it is the downtown they see; also its the downtown that for most cities is the true business and government core.

 

I don't know about that.  In Columbus, most of its popular urban neighborhoods are immediately adjacent to Downtown.  People visiting, such as those going to conventions, will definitely see the Arena District and the Short North, and maybe German Village.

Not only that, but Columbus has incredible infill projects. You would easily mistake a 10 year old building for a 130 year old building, in some neighborhoods.

^That's a pretty big exception to take! When people visit a city, it is the downtown they see; also its the downtown that for most cities is the true business and government core.

 

I don't know about that.  In Columbus, most of its popular urban neighborhoods are immediately adjacent to Downtown.  People visiting, such as those going to conventions, will definitely see the Arena District and the Short North, and maybe German Village.

 

Downtown Columbus is mostly gov't and corporate offices with an abundance of parking. Not much to see there, but the Short North is any city's ideal downtown. It has literally been engineered to be that way with the perfect ratio between land uses, not to mention the walkability and density.

 

The Short North has more of a big city feel than anywhere in Cleveland. So does OTR.

The Short North is Downtown Columbus. Downtown Columbus is a giant office park, adjacent to downtown. That's how I look at it.

so a person visiting DT Columbus has to walk 30 minutes to see urbanity?  that is not a good argument.

I think Little Italy/University Circle feels pretty "big city" in my opinion.

so a person visiting DT Columbus has to walk 30 minutes to see urbanity?  that is not a good argument.

 

It's a 10 min walk to Short North from High and Broad. Across the Cap from the convention center.

eh - google maps says 20 minutes.  1 mile from High and Broad to Short North.  I'm not saying that Short North isn't great it's just that on a quick trip most people aren't walking one mile.  Maybe they'll Uber it there but all 3Cs has great urban nabes in a short Uber ride from DT.

eh - google maps says 20 minutes.  1 mile from High and Broad to Short North.  I'm not saying that Short North isn't great it's just that on a quick trip most people aren't walking one mile.  Maybe they'll Uber it there but all 3Cs has great urban nabes in a short Uber ride from DT.

I'll meet you in the middle and say it's 15 min. Lol. Most people aren't walking. They either uber or hop on the Cbus

so a person visiting DT Columbus has to walk 30 minutes to see urbanity?  that is not a good argument.

 

30 minutes from where?  First of all, I disagree that Downtown is just offices and parking.  That is definitely changing, and there are growing vibrant sections on Gay, 4th and Long, as well as the RiverSouth area. 

 

Second, Downtown is literally across Goodale from the Short North.  You would only be 30 minutes max if you were at the farthest point away at like Mound and 71.  And you really don't have to walk.  The CBus is free and circulates between Downtown up to at least 2nd Avenue. 

 

I would also question if the Downtown-urban neighborhood connections are any better in the other 2-Cs. I would say that Cleveland has the weakest connection of the 3.  Its downtown has some good areas, but most of Cleveland's decent urban neighborhoods are much farther from its downtown than the Short North is from Columbus' or Cincinnati's is from OTR.

[A]ll 3Cs has great urban nabes in a short Uber ride from DT.

 

And I think this explains why the endless contest of trying to claim one city is the "best" or "more urban" is a completely pointless debate. Even on down through Dayton, Youngstown, Hamilton, hell even Bellaire has some great vibrant density (relative, for Appalachia). We're talking about a bunch of mid-sized, middle-power, middle-density (yes, even Cincinnati) cities that have about the same level of influence on their respective 1/3 of the state. Let's be real, the average person rarely can judge how "urban" or "big-city" a city or metro area is. How quickly we seem to forget that 90% of America thinks Cleveland has exactly two buildings because of Mike Polk.

Short North is the most complete neighborhood in Ohio in terms of housing, retail, restaurants/bars. I don't know a lot about OTR, but I've heard great things. University Circle may be the most unique neighborhood in Ohio. 4th largest employment center in Ohio. 11k students at Case, restaurants, museums, housing, Red line stop...

so a person visiting DT Columbus has to walk 30 minutes to see urbanity?  that is not a good argument.

 

Dude, what are you talking about? You can walk through the entire downtown of Columbus in like 5 minutes.

Short North is the most complete neighborhood in Ohio in terms of housing, retail, restaurants/bars. I don't know a lot about OTR, but I've heard great things. University Circle may be the most unique neighborhood in Ohio. 4th largest employment center in Ohio. 11k students at Case, restaurants, museums, housing, Red line stop...

 

University Circle isn't that great. Chances are, if you get off of a train at Unversity Circle, you're waiting 45 minutes for a bus to get wherever you're going. Also, compared to the Short North, University Circle is sprawl central. Relying on public transit, you'll be walking much more and waiting a hell of a lot longer on public transit to take you where you're going. I went to school in Downtown Cleveland while living on the east side of Cleveland. I've lived it. Public transit in Cleveland is a joke. Clevelanders would better spend their energy addressing public transit concerns than defending their city to Columbusites and Cincinnatians.

How far can you walk in 5 minutes?  Is DT COLUMBUS only 1/4 mile wide?

Short North is the most complete neighborhood in Ohio in terms of housing, retail, restaurants/bars. I don't know a lot about OTR, but I've heard great things. University Circle may be the most unique neighborhood in Ohio. 4th largest employment center in Ohio. 11k students at Case, restaurants, museums, housing, Red line stop...

 

University Circle isn't that great. Chances are, if you get off of a train at Unversity Circle, you're waiting 45 minutes for a bus to get wherever you're going. Also, compared to the Short North, University Circle is sprawl central. Relying on public transit, you'll be walking much more and waiting a hell of a lot longer on public transit to take you where you're going. I went to school in Downtown Cleveland while living on the east side of Cleveland. I've lived it. Public transit in Cleveland is a joke. Clevelanders would better spend their energy addressing public transit concerns than defending their city.

 

Chill out...nobody said public transportation in Cleveland is great. We are well aware of its deficiencies. I said the neighborhood was unique. It has a ton of restaurants, museums, jobs, students, housing...on top that, it's connected by rail.

I agree with ColDayMan that Columbus has a lot more urban character than it gets credit for.  However, I believe it gets a bad rap for the same reasons that also work to it's advantage.  When the city limits cover many suburban areas (I would say that by land area 3/4 of the city is suburban) then people will look at the city as a whole through that lens, which isn't always fair.  However, as far as things like poverty and crime stats go, it works in favor of a city like Columbus in that it makes it look like it has less problems than other cities when in reality that may not be true.

 

Just did a quick calculation using the American Survey info from the Census.  For the 1950 core of Columbus only, 35.3% of all buildings were built prior to 1940.  That's higher than all the post-1960 period combined.  The 1950s were the second biggest period, at 18.5% of all buildings, so extending the range to 1959, the total jumps to almost 68%.  So more than 2/3rds of the core buildings are about 60 years old or older. 

 

What that means is that a lot of Columbus was built in the 1940s. Most other towns ground to a halt for WWII but Columbus did not. Also, much of Columbus was built in the 1930s. By that time, we were seeing a lot less in the way of apartments over retail, buildings with no setbacks, NBDs and large urban apartment buildings in favor of duplexes, 4-unit buildings, mansions and bungalows. So our pre-1950 areas are not always the same as other cities' pre-1950 areas. We have a lot more Clintonvilles than Corryvilles. The NBDs we do have are a very small portion of the neighborhoods compared to their vast swaths of residential-only development. So the numbers say density but the development patterns don't. It's actually EASIER to have high density numbers when you don't have businesses taking up space.

 

This, I believe, is where the friction comes from on here.