February 25, 20187 yr I remember Short North being completely unimpressive circa 2002-03. There was a full mile between it and OSU with scattered storefront occupancy. ROYGBIV gallery was a lonely outpost. By 2007 the gap had shrunk to just a few blocks. Now it's safe to say that it is the most impressive street in the state. I first visited University circle in 1995 or 1996...it wasn't bad but it wasn't that impressive either. Back then there were hardly any thriving urban neighborhoods in the United States outside of NY, Boston, and Chicago. But I don't get the impression that it has moved up a notch since then while the rest of the country has improved, especially Columbus. Same with Little Italy...it's just not a big deal. Sure, it's a nice little area, but it's not really that special from an architectural angle. Cincinnati has at least 25 similar neighborhood business districts. Pittsburgh probably has 50. The state of Pennsylvania has 100+ towns with downtown blocks that look basically the same.
February 25, 20187 yr I agree with ColDayMan that Columbus has a lot more urban character than it gets credit for. However, I believe it gets a bad rap for the same reasons that also work to it's advantage. When the city limits cover many suburban areas (I would say that by land area 3/4 of the city is suburban) then people will look at the city as a whole through that lens, which isn't always fair. However, as far as things like poverty and crime stats go, it works in favor of a city like Columbus in that it makes it look like it has less problems than other cities when in reality that may not be true. Just did a quick calculation using the American Survey info from the Census. For the 1950 core of Columbus only, 35.3% of all buildings were built prior to 1940. That's higher than all the post-1960 period combined. The 1950s were the second biggest period, at 18.5% of all buildings, so extending the range to 1959, the total jumps to almost 68%. So more than 2/3rds of the core buildings are about 60 years old or older. What that means is that a lot of Columbus was built in the 1940s. Most other towns ground to a halt for WWII but Columbus did not. Also, much of Columbus was built in the 1930s. By that time, we were seeing a lot less in the way of apartments over retail, buildings with no setbacks, NBDs and large urban apartment buildings in favor of duplexes, 4-unit buildings, mansions and bungalows. So our pre-1950 areas are not always the same as other cities' pre-1950 areas. We have a lot more Clintonvilles than Corryvilles. The NBDs we do have are a very small portion of the neighborhoods compared to their vast swaths of residential-only development. So the numbers say density but the development patterns don't. It's actually EASIER to have high density numbers when you don't have businesses taking up space. This, I believe, is where the friction comes from on here. I always thought it was interesting how German Village, being as large, as intact, and as old as it is, doesn't really have a true "commercial street", in terms of an architecturally-distinct strip. There's a concentration of restaurants along Third and other stuff scattered throughout the neighborhood, but you don't really have a Fifth Street like the Oregon District does (which is probably the closest analogue to GV in the state). My only guess would be that it was in the part of the neighborhood that got wiped out for I-70, if it ever did have one. “To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”
February 25, 20187 yr I remember Short North being completely unimpressive circa 2002-03. There was a full mile between it and OSU with scattered storefront occupancy. ROYGBIV gallery was a lonely outpost. By 2007 the gap had shrunk to just a few blocks. Now it's safe to say that it is the most impressive street in the state. I first visited University circle in 1995 or 1996...it wasn't bad but it wasn't that impressive either. Back then there were hardly any thriving urban neighborhoods in the United States outside of NY, Boston, and Chicago. But I don't get the impression that it has moved up a notch since then while the rest of the country has improved, especially Columbus. Same with Little Italy...it's just not a big deal. Sure, it's a nice little area, but it's not really that special from an architectural angle. Cincinnati has at least 25 similar neighborhood business districts. Pittsburgh probably has 50. The state of Pennsylvania has 100+ towns with downtown blocks that look basically the same. It's changed a lot since then.
February 25, 20187 yr I agree with ColDayMan that Columbus has a lot more urban character than it gets credit for. However, I believe it gets a bad rap for the same reasons that also work to it's advantage. When the city limits cover many suburban areas (I would say that by land area 3/4 of the city is suburban) then people will look at the city as a whole through that lens, which isn't always fair. However, as far as things like poverty and crime stats go, it works in favor of a city like Columbus in that it makes it look like it has less problems than other cities when in reality that may not be true. Just did a quick calculation using the American Survey info from the Census. For the 1950 core of Columbus only, 35.3% of all buildings were built prior to 1940. That's higher than all the post-1960 period combined. The 1950s were the second biggest period, at 18.5% of all buildings, so extending the range to 1959, the total jumps to almost 68%. So more than 2/3rds of the core buildings are about 60 years old or older. What that means is that a lot of Columbus was built in the 1940s. Most other towns ground to a halt for WWII but Columbus did not. Also, much of Columbus was built in the 1930s. By that time, we were seeing a lot less in the way of apartments over retail, buildings with no setbacks, NBDs and large urban apartment buildings in favor of duplexes, 4-unit buildings, mansions and bungalows. So our pre-1950 areas are not always the same as other cities' pre-1950 areas. We have a lot more Clintonvilles than Corryvilles. The NBDs we do have are a very small portion of the neighborhoods compared to their vast swaths of residential-only development. So the numbers say density but the development patterns don't. It's actually EASIER to have high density numbers when you don't have businesses taking up space. This, I believe, is where the friction comes from on here. I always thought it was interesting how German Village, being as large, as intact, and as old as it is, doesn't really have a true "commercial street", in terms of an architecturally-distinct strip. There's a concentration of restaurants along Third and other stuff scattered throughout the neighborhood, but you don't really have a Fifth Street like the Oregon District does (which is probably the closest analogue to GV in the state). My only guess would be that it was in the part of the neighborhood that got wiped out for I-70, if it ever did have one. Yes, the part that got wiped out for I-70 had the main commercial area. Part of it is still there on the south side of Livingston Ave.
February 27, 20187 yr regarding northern summit co It seems as if anyone who's a boomer in that area is an expat from Garfield/Maple/Bedford making the area an extension of Cleveland I should inquire from my mom's Nordonia area neighbors if they call it the treelawn or the devil strip, that will solve the mystery
February 27, 20187 yr if they call it the treelawn or the devil strip, that will solve the mystery ;D ;D ;D Maybe it's called a tree strip or devil lawn....
February 27, 20187 yr Some actual population stuff for the thread... Columbus demographic gifs for 1990-2016.
February 27, 20187 yr Great stuff, thanks! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
February 27, 20187 yr I remember Short North being completely unimpressive circa 2002-03. There was a full mile between it and OSU with scattered storefront occupancy. ROYGBIV gallery was a lonely outpost. Not anymore! https://www.columbusunderground.com/roy-g-biv-gallery-relocating-to-franklinton "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
February 27, 20187 yr I remember Short North being completely unimpressive circa 2002-03. There was a full mile between it and OSU with scattered storefront occupancy. ROYGBIV gallery was a lonely outpost. Not anymore! https://www.columbusunderground.com/roy-g-biv-gallery-relocating-to-franklinton That's a shame. Is there still an art walk in Short North?
February 27, 20187 yr I remember Short North being completely unimpressive circa 2002-03. There was a full mile between it and OSU with scattered storefront occupancy. ROYGBIV gallery was a lonely outpost. Not anymore! https://www.columbusunderground.com/roy-g-biv-gallery-relocating-to-franklinton
February 27, 20187 yr I remember Short North being completely unimpressive circa 2002-03. There was a full mile between it and OSU with scattered storefront occupancy. ROYGBIV gallery was a lonely outpost. Not anymore! https://www.columbusunderground.com/roy-g-biv-gallery-relocating-to-franklinton That's a shame. Is there still an art walk in Short North? Yeah, every 1st Saturday of the month. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
February 28, 20187 yr Gallery Hop. It gives bored people in in Hilliard, something to do on weekends.
February 28, 20187 yr My biggest issue with the whole Akron isn't Cleveland thing, is that when looking at the MSA populations around 2.1 million for Cleveland, some people act as if there is not an additional 700,000 plus people just over the Cuyahoga County line, which can't be said for any of the other two MSAs. As Florida Guy showed with his map, despite the relatively stagnant population growth that region of the state remains the biggest by a large margin and that is not even taking into account all the counties the OMB counts as Cleveland-Akron-Canton, nor the Youngstown area, all of which pushes things to 4.2 million, but that is another story. Yes, by a large margin, NEO is the most populous region in Ohio. However, Florida Guy's population map (Post #1724) over exaggerates this fact by completely omitting Cincinnati's formidable MSA population (400,000 plus) just across the Ohio River in Kentucky. Here is a map based on the population density of Ohio. NEO is clearly the most populated area of Ohio. MSA's vs. CSA's and how they are calculated are irrelevant to me. I only see red. Continue the debate...No question about the red in Ohio. Now add all the red in NKY, portraying CIN-DAY's projected CSA population of 3 million plus.
February 28, 20187 yr Gallery Hop. It gives bored people in in Hilliard, something to do on weekends. It was a thing for students in the 90s too. We thought we were so cool. And Roy G Biv wasn't alone back then, there was a handful. Short North was otherwise underdeveloped and a little rough but the art scene was a big deal. It was even highlighted in OSU's promotional stuff.
February 28, 20187 yr So given this thread is about Ohio population trends, I know that the Mid Ohio Regional Planning Commission has the Columbus metro area growing bu around a million by 2050... so what about Cleveland and Cincinnati and their planning agencies...what do they project?
February 28, 20187 yr You don't hear about it much up here, because the conversation is totally different in Greater Cleveland as it isn't a high growth area. You hear a lot of discussion about how to manage "no-growth sprawl" and population decline. So I don't really know what kinds of projections are even out there.
February 28, 20187 yr You don't hear about it much up here, because the conversation is totally different in Greater Cleveland as it isn't a high growth area. You hear a lot of discussion about how to manage "no-growth sprawl" and population decline. So I don't really know what kinds of projections are even out there. This is unfortunately true. It might be hard to make any projections until we start to see regional growth.
February 28, 20187 yr Cleveland's regional agency, NOACA, doesn't even mention population changes at all in its 300-page long range plan! http://www.noaca.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=19842
February 28, 20187 yr Cleveland's regional agency, NOACA, doesn't even mention population changes at all in its 300-page long range plan! http://www.noaca.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=19842 And yet we're seeing major population changes, of the negative sort. I'm glad we have some hot neighborhoods to talk about but most of the city is still in absolute free fall.
February 28, 20187 yr Cleveland's regional agency, NOACA, doesn't even mention population changes at all in its 300-page long range plan! http://www.noaca.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=19842 And yet we're seeing major population changes, of the negative sort. I'm glad we have some hot neighborhoods to talk about but most of the city is still in absolute free fall. But as a region we are relatively flat or a slight decline.
March 1, 20187 yr University Circle isn't that great. Chances are, if you get off of a train at Unversity Circle, you're waiting 45 minutes for a bus to get wherever you're going. Also, compared to the Short North, University Circle is sprawl central. Relying on public transit, you'll be walking much more and waiting a hell of a lot longer on public transit to take you where you're going. I went to school in Downtown Cleveland while living on the east side of Cleveland. I've lived it. Public transit in Cleveland is a joke. Clevelanders would better spend their energy addressing public transit concerns than defending their city to Columbusites and Cincinnatians. All depends on where you live. If you chose to live on a infrequent transit line with crapy connections to downtown, of course you're going to hate public transportation in Cleveland. But if you chose to live on a transit line(s) with frequent services and late hours of operation then you're going to think that transit isn't to bad in Cleveland. It that's one of the reasons why I chose where I live, which is the Gold Coast in Lakewood. We have the Clifton BRT which gets you the 5 or 6 miles from the Gold Coast to downtown in 15 minutes with rush hour buses every 10 minutes. That is twice as fast as the Healthline takes for the 5-6 miles from University circle downtown. We also have the 24 hour #26 bus route on Detroit Avenue as well as multiple routes out to the shopping in Rocky River and Fairview Park. Then we also are in walking distance to the Red Line to the airport which the West 117th station also has all day bus service from the Gold Coast. We also use the Red line to get to Little Italy a lot. So if you move to the desert, I hope you don't complain that there isn't enough water. If transit means that much to you, then you probably should do a little better research the next time you move to a neighborhood. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 1, 20187 yr And now for the real reason why I came to this thread to post.... From Akron Planning Director Jason Segedy.... President that was in office when the median housing unit was built: Akron (Truman) Canton (Truman) Cincinnati (Truman) Cleveland (Franklin Roosevelt) Columbus (Ford) Dayton (Truman) Toledo (Eisenhower) Youngstown (Truman) "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 1, 20187 yr ^ it would be interesting to see the stats of other cities like Minneapolis, Chicago, Nashville, Charlotte, Philly, NYC, Boston compare too. I don't know if this provides much insight into growth of cities (as some other older cities are growing) or just the nature of housing stock and when they initially developed.
March 1, 20187 yr and where the city limits lie True, but in Cleveland's case, you'd have to go pretty far out to change the median. The vast majority of Lakewood, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights were all built in the 1930s or earlier.
March 1, 20187 yr ^ it would be interesting to see the stats of other cities like Minneapolis, Chicago, Nashville, Charlotte, Philly, NYC, Boston compare too. I don't know if this provides much insight into growth of cities (as some other older cities are growing) or just the nature of housing stock and when they initially developed. People are having far fewer kids. Half as many people are living in early 20th century homes as did in 1950. Some of the new condo and apartment rehabs might only have 8 residents in 6 units. In the 1800s that same building might have had 30 people living in it, and maybe 15-20 in 1950.
March 1, 20187 yr and where the city limits lie True, but in Cleveland's case, you'd have to go pretty far out to change the median. The vast majority of Lakewood, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights were all built in the 1930s or earlier. I think that's his point - city limits are quite arbitrary and differ greatly from metro area to metro area
March 1, 20187 yr and where the city limits lie True, but in Cleveland's case, you'd have to go pretty far out to change the median. The vast majority of Lakewood, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights were all built in the 1930s or earlier. I think that's his point - city limits are quite arbitrary and differ greatly from metro area to metro area Yes, but I think he was insinuating that the difference in median age between Columbus and Cleveland is due to this factor. I was simply stating that even if you include more areas adjacent to Cleveland, the median age likely doesn't change.
March 1, 20187 yr My biggest issue with the whole Akron isn't Cleveland thing, is that when looking at the MSA populations around 2.1 million for Cleveland, some people act as if there is not an additional 700,000 plus people just over the Cuyahoga County line, which can't be said for any of the other two MSAs. As Florida Guy showed with his map, despite the relatively stagnant population growth that region of the state remains the biggest by a large margin and that is not even taking into account all the counties the OMB counts as Cleveland-Akron-Canton, nor the Youngstown area, all of which pushes things to 4.2 million, but that is another story. Yes, by a large margin, NEO is the most populous region in Ohio. However, Florida Guy's population map (Post #1724) over exaggerates this fact by completely omitting Cincinnati's formidable MSA population (400,000 plus) just across the Ohio River in Kentucky. Here is a map based on the population density of Ohio. NEO is clearly the most populated area of Ohio. MSA's vs. CSA's and how they are calculated are irrelevant to me. I only see red. Continue the debate...No question about the red in Ohio. Now add all the red in NKY, portraying CIN-DAY's projected CSA population of 3 million plus. I agree with you on the over the river areas that aren't shown on that Ohio only map. That would change things slightly, but what is this Cin-Day CSA you speak of? LOL. Cincy posters are quick to point out their larger MSA, which is fine as that is what is accurate, but Cleveland-Akron-Canton is the only existing Ohio CSA made up with multiple MSAs.
March 1, 20187 yr Cleveland's regional agency, NOACA, doesn't even mention population changes at all in its 300-page long range plan! http://www.noaca.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=19842 And yet we're seeing major population changes, of the negative sort. I'm glad we have some hot neighborhoods to talk about but most of the city is still in absolute free fall. But as a region we are relatively flat or a slight decline. To add to that, the rate of decline has been slowing to a point the MSA population may stabilize, or start to grow a bit. Next Census estimates are out this month right?
March 1, 20187 yr My biggest issue with the whole Akron isn't Cleveland thing, is that when looking at the MSA populations around 2.1 million for Cleveland, some people act as if there is not an additional 700,000 plus people just over the Cuyahoga County line, which can't be said for any of the other two MSAs. As Florida Guy showed with his map, despite the relatively stagnant population growth that region of the state remains the biggest by a large margin and that is not even taking into account all the counties the OMB counts as Cleveland-Akron-Canton, nor the Youngstown area, all of which pushes things to 4.2 million, but that is another story. Yes, by a large margin, NEO is the most populous region in Ohio. However, Florida Guy's population map (Post #1724) over exaggerates this fact by completely omitting Cincinnati's formidable MSA population (400,000 plus) just across the Ohio River in Kentucky. Here is a map based on the population density of Ohio. NEO is clearly the most populated area of Ohio. MSA's vs. CSA's and how they are calculated are irrelevant to me. I only see red. Continue the debate...No question about the red in Ohio. Now add all the red in NKY, portraying CIN-DAY's projected CSA population of 3 million plus. I agree with you on the over the river areas that aren't shown on that Ohio only map. That would change things slightly, but what is this Cin-Day CSA you speak of? LOL. Cincy posters are quick to point out their larger MSA, which is fine as that is what is accurate, but Cleveland-Akron-Canton is the only existing Ohio CSA made up with multiple MSAs. Not only that, but the current Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA is 1/2 million larger than the hypotehtical Cincinnati-Dayton CSA.
March 1, 20187 yr ^^^ He did say "projected CSA," whereas some Cleveland posters are referring to Akron as being part of Cleveland's metro (currently, not "projected"), which is strictly false. I agree that it's not worth talking about Cin-Day until it happens. Though I think they meet the commuting criteria to become one. The rules for CSA formation have been changing, so it may be a musical chairs thing until one census year when the policy and stats match up. Or it may never happen, especially if Dayton doesn't want it.
March 1, 20187 yr and where the city limits lie True, but in Cleveland's case, you'd have to go pretty far out to change the median. The vast majority of Lakewood, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights were all built in the 1930s or earlier. I think that's his point - city limits are quite arbitrary and differ greatly from metro area to metro area Yes, but I think he was insinuating that the difference in median age between Columbus and Cleveland is due to this factor. I was simply stating that even if you include more areas adjacent to Cleveland, the median age likely doesn't change. Ah ok I see what you mean... Cleveland MSA is probably older than Columbus MSA no matter where the city limits are.
March 1, 20187 yr Yes. But imagine if Solon was within the Cleveland city limits. Both Polaris and Easton are in the city of Columbus rather than Worthington and Gahanna like they would be in other cities.
March 1, 20187 yr ^^^ He did say "projected CSA' date='" whereas some Cleveland posters are referring to Akron as being part of Cleveland's metro (currently, not "projected"), which is strictly false.[/quote'] I am poster who considers Akron part of the Cleveland metro absolutely. No question about. Akron is in Summit county, which touches Cuyahoga and MANY of the suburbs in Summit county are Cleveland suburbs, not Akron suburbs. Akron, Summit County, and Portage County are inextricably linked to Cleveland. Now, if you define your world by OMB who is influenced by Akron politicians, then you accept the government's MSA boundaries and numbers. But if you view the world through reality, then you see the real Metro Cleveland is 7 counties--at least, not five.
March 1, 20187 yr Yes. But imagine if Solon was within the Cleveland city limits. Both Polaris and Easton are in the city of Columbus rather than Worthington and Gahanna like they would be in other cities. What would be interesting is to take the entire MSA for each city and then see what percentage of housing falls within each decade. I do not volunteer to do that. :)
March 1, 20187 yr ^^^ He did say "projected CSA' date='" whereas some Cleveland posters are referring to Akron as being part of Cleveland's metro (currently, not "projected"), which is strictly false.[/quote'] I am poster who considers Akron part of the Cleveland metro absolutely. No question about. Akron is in Summit county, which touches Cuyahoga and MANY of the suburbs in Summit county are Cleveland suburbs, not Akron suburbs. Akron, Summit County, and Portage County are inextricably linked to Cleveland. Now, if you define your world by OMB who is influenced by Akron politicians, then you accept the government's MSA boundaries and numbers. But if you view the world through reality, then you see the real Metro Cleveland is 7 counties--at least, not five. What a conundrum for OMB would it be if Cleveland was like Columbus and had annexed a few far flung areas along its sprawl path that were actually outside of Cuyahoga County? For instance, what if a small part of Northfield or Sagamore Hills was actually the city of Cleveland? This isn't all that far fetched as I would say those areas are at least as connected to Cleveland as Polaris is to Columbus. Would part of the city of Cleveland be in the Akron MSA then?
March 1, 20187 yr I have family scattered around the Aurora/Hudson/Twinsburg/Streetsboro/Macedonia area and they always considered themselves Clevelanders, most of them commuting to jobs in Cuyahoga County. I actually don't know of any of them who go to Akron. Meanwhile I know some people from Cuyahoga County who go to Akron General Hospital for work. Akron and Cleveland are definitely more intertwined than Cincy and Dayton by simple virtue of the fact that they are closer. Hamilton County doesn't touch Montgomery County whereas Cuyahoga touches Summit. Dayton definitely has a larger degree of independence from Cincy than Akron has from Cleveland. This is obvious to anyone who has spent any time in either area. (Some Akron partisans stubbornly insist they're different, like LeBron circa 2010.) I don't really know what the argument is about though... An MSA or CSA is just a thing invented by the census bureau. I guess it could help raise the profile of these MSAs if they consolidated.
March 1, 20187 yr From a Dayton perspective, the Miami Valley "culturally" stretches from Hamilton all the way up to Sidney. Whenever people talk about the supposedly inevitable Cin-Day merger, they tend to forget that there are these other small cities with commuting and cultural ties to Dayton that they don't share with Cincinnati. The types of communities up in Miami and Shelby counties are starkly different from those down in the Butler-Warren sprawlplex. Which, again, is why I strongly feel population numbers and arbitrary census designations mean next to nothing, and it's unfortunate that the general populace and the media put so much emphasis on a statistic that doesn't really do much to tell you about a region. “To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”
March 1, 20187 yr True, but in Cleveland's case, you'd have to go pretty far out to change the median. The vast majority of Lakewood, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights were all built in the 1930s or earlier. Average year of construction of a home in Lakewood is 1938. The city is trying to change by encouraging new housing construction wherever there's a vacant or underutilized lot. Have to have that to maintain the competitiveness of its housing stock and to maintain its population base and average income levels. Unfortunately, both are falling. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 1, 20187 yr From a Dayton perspective, the Miami Valley "culturally" stretches from Hamilton all the way up to Sidney. Whenever people talk about the supposedly inevitable Cin-Day merger, they tend to forget that there are these other small cities with commuting and cultural ties to Dayton that they don't share with Cincinnati. The types of communities up in Miami and Shelby counties are starkly different from those down in the Butler-Warren sprawlplex. Which, again, is why I strongly feel population numbers and arbitrary census designations mean next to nothing, and it's unfortunate that the general populace and the media put so much emphasis on a statistic that doesn't really do much to tell you about a region. Hamilton is an example of overlap between Cincy and Dayton, sort of like New Brunswick NJ is to NYC and Philly. Anecdotally, it seems like I can't go to a bar or restaurant in Dayton without overhearing someone talk about Cincinnati. That's probably not true in Sidney or Piqua, but it's true in Dayton-proper. MSAs (and CSAs) exist in order to approximate apples-to-apples comparisons. They're the most objective tool available to do that. Of course they miss local context, but to have comparison conversations like in this thread, the easiest & most fair common-ground is sticking to those boundaries. (I would argue this is a must in this type of conversation when using words like 'metro'.) Otherwise, it's all too fuzzy. Which is why speculation about a CinDay CSA isn't useful until it happens (except in a conversation explicitly about hypotheticals).
March 1, 20187 yr Anecdotally, it seems like I can't go to a bar or restaurant in Dayton without overhearing someone talk about Cincinnati. That's probably not true in Sidney or Piqua, but it's true in Dayton-proper. Cincinnati is without question the closest large city to Dayton so that's expected but its reliance on Cincinnati is pretty much null (own culture, own airport, own media market, etc), which I believe the Cleveland forumers are eluding to with Akron. In a sense, it's like a micro-scaled version of Washington DC and Baltimore. You'll hear DC talked about everywhere in Baltimore but Baltimore doesn't rely on Washington DC. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
March 1, 20187 yr True, but in Cleveland's case, you'd have to go pretty far out to change the median. The vast majority of Lakewood, East Cleveland, Cleveland Heights, and Shaker Heights were all built in the 1930s or earlier. Average year of construction of a home in Lakewood is 1938. The city is trying to change by encouraging new housing construction wherever there's a vacant or underutilized lot. Have to have that to maintain the competitiveness of its housing stock and to maintain its population base and average income levels. Unfortunately, both are falling. That's interesting because home prices and rents have been going up like crazy.
March 1, 20187 yr To me Cincinnati has always had its own, totally separate, German-Catholic, not quite Midwestern, not quite Appalachian, 'thing' going on, while Dayton always seemed to me to be straight Midwestern. I dated a girl who was from Oakwood and her and her family always seemed to be pretty well identified as Dayton people, they didn't talk much about Cincy but they liked taking me to all kinds of Air Force / Wright Brothers museums and stuff all the time. Anecdotal obviously.
March 1, 20187 yr ^^^ He did say "projected CSA' date='" whereas some Cleveland posters are referring to Akron as being part of Cleveland's metro (currently, not "projected"), which is strictly false.[/quote'] I am poster who considers Akron part of the Cleveland metro absolutely. No question about. Akron is in Summit county, which touches Cuyahoga and MANY of the suburbs in Summit county are Cleveland suburbs, not Akron suburbs. Akron, Summit County, and Portage County are inextricably linked to Cleveland. Now, if you define your world by OMB who is influenced by Akron politicians, then you accept the government's MSA boundaries and numbers. But if you view the world through reality, then you see the real Metro Cleveland is 7 counties--at least, not five. What a conundrum for OMB would it be if Cleveland was like Columbus and had annexed a few far flung areas along its sprawl path that were actually outside of Cuyahoga County? For instance, what if a small part of Northfield or Sagamore Hills was actually the city of Cleveland? This isn't all that far fetched as I would say those areas are at least as connected to Cleveland as Polaris is to Columbus. Would part of the city of Cleveland be in the Akron MSA then? Polaris is actually in the city of Columbus so I'm not sure where you're going with this part. In general if you want a similar comparison to what Dayton is to Cincinnati, I would offer Youngstown to Cleveland or even Youngstown to Pittsburgh. People from the Mahoning Valley commute to both areas to work. Or I would say Sidney to Cincinnati is comparable to Canton to Cleveland.
March 1, 20187 yr His point is if Cleveland annexed Northfield, there would be a dilemma as to which MSA would they put it in. Or to apply the same thing in reverse, if Delaware was its own MSA, where would Polaris go? I agree, Cleveland to Youngstown or Cleveland to Canton is more like Dayton is to CIncy.
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