July 6, 20186 yr There are places that believe manufacturing is not over with and they want every drop of it they can get. I feel like we should be looking at it that way too. Yes, there's luck involved with everything, but if the policies vary from place to place then policy is probably a factor.
July 6, 20186 yr Because people don't want to be there. Here it is, the actual HQ of the biggest company in the United States: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.364256,-94.2173852,3a,75y,351.68h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQkOj634uuV83Wm8XUlJztQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Looks like they might be moving across the street, finally: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3642959,-94.2184421,3a,75y,224.42h,98.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSaKXsr7SdRus3vbK8jF3UA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
July 6, 20186 yr ^ that is another very important reason why Cleveland is such a financial center for the region. 5/3 and Huntington are nice banks and all but they have less influence than they would have if they were in a Fed city. Look at the major banks in the country and where are they based. Outside of Charlotte, all the big players (US Bank, Wells Fargo, SunTrust, Key, JP Morgan, Citi all are based in Fed Reserve cities. PNC is another outlier but again the economy of today is different to allow a PNC, 5/3 and BB&T type banks to compete. 50 years ago, you needed to be in a Fed Reserve city. Law firms and accounting firms also like to cluster around these industries too. Cincy was never a major financial center. It was a much more diversified economy back then and it did have its financial businesses and even its own stock exchange but its manufacturing economy and service economy relied on different industry clusters. Hence why it and Columbus were never major financial centers. I appreciate the history you provided in your other post. One nitpicky thing I'd point out is that it's a little off to say 5/3 and Huntington are just "nice" banks but Key is a big player. 5/3 is the 24th largest bank in the US, Huntington is 35th. Key comes in right between them at 30th. In 2018, 5/3 is top dog in Ohio. Yes, 5/3 is definitely bigger than Key and Huntington, though it's not some huge disparity. And Columbus and Cincinnati have some interesting former banks that moved on. Bank One was a Columbus bank that expanded, moved to Chicago after acquisitions, became top ten in size, and merged with Chase. Likewise, US Bank directly traces back to the old First National (Star) in Cincinnati; Star bought Firstar in Milwaukee and then moved there, taking the Firstar name; it then bought US Bank in Minneapolis and moved there, taking the US Bank name. (One of its largest--if not the largest--branches for its corporate deposits is still the downtown Cincinnati branch, which is why US Bank is always listed as first in deposits in the Greater Cincinnati region, even though it's significantly smaller than 5/3 in Cincinnati.) If Star had done those same acquisitions but stayed in Cincinnati instead of moving out, it would be an entirely different landscape (ditto if Bank One had stayed in Columbus, though I can't recall if it was the acquirer or the acquired in the deals that got it to Chicago).
July 6, 20186 yr DEPACincy[/member] The 1-year estimates are wildly inconsistent if you trend them from year to year for the past 6 or so years. The 5 year estimates show a steady rise in bachelor degrees in that age cohort for Cleveland. Not as large a number as Columbus likely, but growth no doubt. Yeah, I was going to mention that the 1-year estimates are considered the least reliable of the 2. This is a fair point. It does jump around a bit, and of course it has a higher MOE than the 5-Year Estimates. But I checked those and they show the same trend, just smoother. I went ahead and used the 1-Year because of the lag that is inherent in the 5-Year data. I also looked at the 1-year for city limits since you did metros. Those go back to 2005, but I just went to 2010 with them. 2016 % of Total aged 25+ HS or Less Cincinnati: 37.1% Cleveland: 53.7% Columbus: 37.5% Some College/Associates Degree Cincinnati: 26.0% Cleveland: 30.0% Columbus: 27.3% Bachelors Degree Cincinnati: 20.9% Cleveland: 10.5% Columbus: 23.4% Graduate/Professional Degree Cincinnati: 16.1% Cleveland: 5.8% Columbus: 11.9% All College Degrees Cincinnati: 43.3% Cleveland: 22.7% Columbus: 42.7% What obviously stands out is how much less educated Cleveland is, particularly on higher degrees. Here are the changes 2010-2016 HS or Less Cincinnati: -9.8% Cleveland: -5.4% Columbus: +8.9% Some College/Associates Degree Cincinnati: -0.4% Cleveland: -1.3% Columbus: +8.5% Bachelors Degree Cincinnati: +16.1% Cleveland: +25.6% Columbus: +25.8% Graduate/Professional Degree Cincinnati: +27.2% Cleveland: +15.9% Columbus: +31.1% Any Degree Cincinnati: +17.5% Cleveland: +16.0% Columbus: +26.9% Columbus does seem to be attracting lower education levels while the other 2 are losing them, so there may be some truth that Columbus is getting Cleveland/Cincinnati's low education population This study backs up what I posted yesterday about Cleveland's manufacturing employment base shrinking/moving as we head towards a knowledge based economy. https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2320&context=urban_facpub Yes, but Columbus’ gain far exceeds what the other 2 are losing, suggesting that it’s also a function of overall growth. Columbus attracts across the board, and from more than just Cleveland and Cincinnati.
July 6, 20186 yr jonoh81[/member] thanks for posting the numbers but I just have a quick question as I was a bit confused. On your last post, are you referring to percent change? I believe you are? I was confused on an earlier one but I knew what it meant, and I think DEPAcincy posted it so I'm not trying to nitpick at all, but I believe if you are saying for example: 35.5% - 37.5% Percent Change = +5.63% Percentage Point Change = +2 I think that's the nomenclature.
July 6, 20186 yr jonoh81[/member] thanks for posting the numbers but I just have a quick question as I was a bit confused. On your last post, are you referring to percent change? I believe you are? I was confused on an earlier one but I knew what it meant, and I think DEPAcincy posted it so I'm not trying to nitpick at all, but I believe if you are saying for example: 35.5% - 37.5% Percent Change = +5.63% Percentage Point Change = +2 I think that's the nomenclature. Yea, that was the confusion on everyone's part I think. I posted percentage point changes and jonoh81 posted percent change. That's why I said they tell the same story, just in a different way.
July 6, 20186 yr If Star had done those same acquisitions but stayed in Cincinnati instead of moving out, it would be an entirely different landscape (ditto if Bank One had stayed in Columbus, though I can't recall if it was the acquirer or the acquired in the deals that got it to Chicago). Yeah I remember when First National sold out, or changed names, or whatever back around 1996. I also recall a lot of nervousness that 5/3 was going to be purchased around that same time. I'm no expert on the history of U.S. banking but I know that the law changed in the 70s or 80s regarding consolidations that cross state lines. Previously every city of any size had several regional banks HQ'd in their downtowns. Obviously the NYC and California banks grew to be much larger because of all of the lending in those states relative to smaller places. But with consolidation we ended up 20-30 years later with just 15 or so major national consumer banks plus inroads by foreign banks (mostly in the credit card business). Almost all of the midsized cities around the United States lost their bank HQ's and with that the business relationships that came with it, charity relationships, etc. Aaron Renn has done some good writing on this subject, and notes how of all places St. Louis seems to have lost this lottery in more realms than any other second-tier U.S. city. For all of the talk of the relative decline of Cleveland within Ohio, the balance of power in Missouri might shift by 2030 to Kansas City for the first time in the region's 200-year history.
July 6, 20186 yr DEPACincy[/member] The 1-year estimates are wildly inconsistent if you trend them from year to year for the past 6 or so years. The 5 year estimates show a steady rise in bachelor degrees in that age cohort for Cleveland. Not as large a number as Columbus likely, but growth no doubt. Yeah, I was going to mention that the 1-year estimates are considered the least reliable of the 2. This is a fair point. It does jump around a bit, and of course it has a higher MOE than the 5-Year Estimates. But I checked those and they show the same trend, just smoother. I went ahead and used the 1-Year because of the lag that is inherent in the 5-Year data. I also looked at the 1-year for city limits since you did metros. Those go back to 2005, but I just went to 2010 with them. 2016 % of Total aged 25+ HS or Less Cincinnati: 37.1% Cleveland: 53.7% Columbus: 37.5% Some College/Associates Degree Cincinnati: 26.0% Cleveland: 30.0% Columbus: 27.3% Bachelors Degree Cincinnati: 20.9% Cleveland: 10.5% Columbus: 23.4% Graduate/Professional Degree Cincinnati: 16.1% Cleveland: 5.8% Columbus: 11.9% All College Degrees Cincinnati: 43.3% Cleveland: 22.7% Columbus: 42.7% What obviously stands out is how much less educated Cleveland is, particularly on higher degrees. Here are the changes 2010-2016 HS or Less Cincinnati: -9.8% Cleveland: -5.4% Columbus: +8.9% Some College/Associates Degree Cincinnati: -0.4% Cleveland: -1.3% Columbus: +8.5% Bachelors Degree Cincinnati: +16.1% Cleveland: +25.6% Columbus: +25.8% Graduate/Professional Degree Cincinnati: +27.2% Cleveland: +15.9% Columbus: +31.1% Any Degree Cincinnati: +17.5% Cleveland: +16.0% Columbus: +26.9% Columbus does seem to be attracting lower education levels while the other 2 are losing them, so there may be some truth that Columbus is getting Cleveland/Cincinnati's low education population This study backs up what I posted yesterday about Cleveland's manufacturing employment base shrinking/moving as we head towards a knowledge based economy. https://engagedscholarship.csuohio.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2320&context=urban_facpub Yes, but Columbus’ gain far exceeds what the other 2 are losing, suggesting that it’s also a function of overall growth. Columbus attracts across the board, and from more than just Cleveland and Cincinnati. People from Cincinnati don't have to leave Cincinnati since they all know each other. Especially not for entry-level unskilled blue-collar work.
July 6, 20186 yr Because people don't want to be there. Here it is, the actual HQ of the biggest company in the United States: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.364256,-94.2173852,3a,75y,351.68h,94.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQkOj634uuV83Wm8XUlJztQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 Looks like they might be moving across the street, finally: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.3642959,-94.2184421,3a,75y,224.42h,98.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSaKXsr7SdRus3vbK8jF3UA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 My god, it's a 1962 high school isn't it? With portable classrooms and everything!
July 6, 20186 yr Cleveland has the smallest number of financial sector jobs of the 3Cs, according to BLS data. Cleveland's edge in Education and Health is large; aside from Columbus' lead in government jobs, no city has a larger lead over the other 2 in any sector. (apologies for the crappy photo)
July 6, 20186 yr My god, it's a 1962 high school isn't it? With portable classrooms and everything! Reminds me of the BMV in Tennessee where I took my driving test at age 26 (in line with a bunch of 15 year-olds getting their temps) to get my license back.
July 6, 20186 yr Not like it used to be as compared to these other sectors. Once the late '90s hit and all those people started moving here a lot of farmland was lost at the very same time other sectors became much bigger.
July 6, 20186 yr Where's agriculture? Isn't that big in Columbus? The BLS data I used only showed nonfarm employment.
July 6, 20186 yr Looks like Cleveland's lead in eds & meds (as stated above, this really means meds here) is similar to Columbus's in government. Cincy doesn't have a lead that wide in anything, with its biggest lead being leisure/hospitality. Which is pretty interesting (at least to me, it's not expected like the other two); I guess it indicates Cincy has a bigger tourism industry.
July 6, 20186 yr Any of these leads in particular industries and "government" are pretty incidental, in gross numbers, and a lot of these jobs pay low professional wages. It only takes a 1,000-2,000 tech bros making $120k+ to completely distort a city's housing, restaurant/bar/entertainment scene, etc., but that same number of Mexicans hanging out in trailer parks are completely invisible.
July 6, 20186 yr Also, education and medical should be separated into two categories. The combined statistic leads to people making assumptions.
July 6, 20186 yr For those columbus folks who say that Columbus is not subsidized by Cleveland and Cincinnati---look at the graph above. Assume that Federal and local workers are a function of metropolitan size--so CLE would have more federal and local workers than columbus. then, on top of that, columbus has about 50,000 more govt' workers than CLE/Cinci. So about 50-60k state workers beyond what is proportional---that Cleveland and Cinci are paying for that are, in turn, shopping/eating/buying homes, etc. in Columbus pulling up that economy.
July 6, 20186 yr For those columbus folks who say that Columbus is not subsidized by Cleveland and Cincinnati---look at the graph above. Assume that Federal and local workers are a function of metropolitan size--so CLE would have more federal and local workers than columbus. then, on top of that, columbus has about 50,000 more govt' workers than CLE/Cinci. So about 50-60k state workers beyond what is proportional---that Cleveland and Cinci are paying for that are, in turn, shopping/eating/buying homes, etc. in Columbus pulling up that economy. It doesn't matter. There are all sorts of state capitals all over the country that aren't thriving. Lansing. Madison. Lincoln. Jefferson City. Tallahassee. Trenton.
July 6, 20186 yr jonoh81[/member] thanks for posting the numbers but I just have a quick question as I was a bit confused. On your last post, are you referring to percent change? I believe you are? I was confused on an earlier one but I knew what it meant, and I think DEPAcincy posted it so I'm not trying to nitpick at all, but I believe if you are saying for example: 35.5% - 37.5% Percent Change = +5.63% Percentage Point Change = +2 I think that's the nomenclature. The percent changes I used were taken from the estimated totals of the population, such as the number of people over 25 with a bachelors in 2010 vs. the number of people over 25 with a bachelors in 2016.
July 6, 20186 yr It doesn't matter. There are all sorts of state capitals all over the country that aren't thriving. Lansing. Madison. Lincoln. Jefferson City. Tallahassee. Trenton. In states having a dominant metro area (New York with New York City, Illinois with Chicago, etc.) with the state capital located elsewhere, the capital city seems to have fewer state government jobs than the dominant city. FWIW. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
July 6, 20186 yr Relative to all of the jobs in a state, the number of people who work in state government is very, very small. If state government jobs were to be dispersed, they should be dispersed to the small long-suffering suffering cities like Springfield.
July 6, 20186 yr Bank One was a Columbus bank that expanded, moved to Chicago after acquisitions, became top ten in size, and merged with Chase. - JPMorgan Chase is the largest bank in the United States and the sixth largest bank in the world - and it is also a bit of a "stealth Columbus" company because of its merger with Bank One. Columbus-based Bank One grew via mergers into the 6th largest US bank, until Bank One merged with First Chicago in 1998 and moved its HQ to Chicago, while keeping the Bank One name. Then Bank One got acquired by Chase Bank (now JPMorgan Chase) and forms the goliath it is today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation - As a result of Chase's 2004 merger with Bank One, Chase acquired the massive McCoy Center built in 1996 by Bank One at Polaris. The McCoy Center contains 2,000,000 square feet of office space (the equivalent of the Empire State Building) and houses over 10,000 employees. It is the largest single employment center in the entire Chase portfolio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCoy_Center - The McCoy Center is currently undergoing a $200 million renovation by Chase: https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2016/10/28/photos-inside-jpmorgan-chase-s-sprawling-mccoy.html - Google aerial of the McCoy Center at Polaris: https://www.google.com/maps/place/JP+Morgan+Chase+McCoy+Center+(Chase+Bank)/@40.1410668,-82.9971654,2314m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x915e0266071252bd!8m2!3d40.1428696!4d-82.9969511?hl=en
July 6, 20186 yr ^ Idk why you keep making the same argument about state capitals not making a difference in the trajectory of a city by showing that there are states with small capital cities. Obviously having a state capital in isolation is not going to make a city into a boom town. Same thing with a large university. But these huge institutions certainly help the economy of wherever they are. What would Jefferson City, MO be without the capital? Probably just like any of the other dying small towns that litter Missouri. When you add in a capital to an already sizable city, it certainly makes sense that it would help sustain the city through periods of economic downturn, and help to support other, ancillary industries. Is much of Columbus' current growth the result of it being a state capital? No. Has being the capital helped Columbus over the years? Undoubtedly yes.
July 7, 20186 yr For those columbus folks who say that Columbus is not subsidized by Cleveland and Cincinnati---look at the graph above. Assume that Federal and local workers are a function of metropolitan size--so CLE would have more federal and local workers than columbus. then, on top of that, columbus has about 50,000 more govt' workers than CLE/Cinci. So about 50-60k state workers beyond what is proportional---that Cleveland and Cinci are paying for that are, in turn, shopping/eating/buying homes, etc. in Columbus pulling up that economy. In terms of state contributions of sales and income taxes, Cuyahoga County is 3rd of the big 3. Here were the net contributions in that regard by metro: Cincinnati: $465,044,791 Columbus: $464,783,998 Cleveland: $309,373,270 https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2017/03/as_donor_counties_cuyahoga_fra.html Franklin County was the highest donor of sales taxes, but the lowest in income taxes, and overall #2 of all counties in the state. This was in 2014, so the numbers may have shifted some since then with Franklin County- and the overall metro- growing so fast. So no, I don't think Columbus is subsidized nearly to the extent you're claiming here.
July 7, 20186 yr Relative to all of the jobs in a state, the number of people who work in state government is very, very small. If state government jobs were to be dispersed, they should be dispersed to the small long-suffering suffering cities like Springfield. There was an attempt at dispersing government jobs in the past, and it ended up costing the state more than to concentrate them.
July 7, 20186 yr Was the state lotto being based in Cleveland part of that? It's a "newer" government function.
July 7, 20186 yr Here's a video of Vox's Matthew Yglesias arguing for spreading the distribution of government agencies at the federal level, as opposed to the state level as has been discussed here.
July 7, 20186 yr For those columbus folks who say that Columbus is not subsidized by Cleveland and Cincinnati---look at the graph above. Assume that Federal and local workers are a function of metropolitan size--so CLE would have more federal and local workers than columbus. then, on top of that, columbus has about 50,000 more govt' workers than CLE/Cinci. So about 50-60k state workers beyond what is proportional---that Cleveland and Cinci are paying for that are, in turn, shopping/eating/buying homes, etc. in Columbus pulling up that economy. In terms of state contributions of sales and income taxes, Cuyahoga County is 3rd of the big 3. Here were the net contributions in that regard by metro: Cincinnati: $465,044,791 Columbus: $464,783,998 Cleveland: $309,373,270 https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2017/03/as_donor_counties_cuyahoga_fra.html Franklin County was the highest donor of sales taxes, but the lowest in income taxes, and overall #2 of all counties in the state. This was in 2014, so the numbers may have shifted some since then with Franklin County- and the overall metro- growing so fast. So no, I don't think Columbus is subsidized nearly to the extent you're claiming here. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I think the argument is about net regional transfers, which that Cleveland.com data dump doesn't get into.
July 7, 20186 yr ^^ The inertia to be overcome to move an agency out of Washington is enormous; the effort is almost guaranteed to fail. A much better approach is to capture a NEW agency - however small - when it is established and grow it with political help from Ohio's elected representatives. The Clinic's new brain tissue repository is a potential monster operation; both Ohio senators and NEO's house delegation should be working to make it a government-sponsored unit. Are they? Other than Marci Kaptur, do they even think along these lines? It doesn't seem that way, but that's exactly the way the CDC in Atlanta grew to 14,000 people. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
July 7, 20186 yr Cincinnati had the massive Fernald plant, which had 3,000 workers at its peak. That closed for good in the 1990s...its cleanup was the most expensive thing that has ever happened in Cincinnati. The $4 billion cleanup in the 1990s was more expensive, adjusted for inflation, than was construction of all 150~ miles of interstate highway: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fernald+Preserve+Visitors+Center/@39.299131,-84.6984721,2201m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x88403154ca3575ef:0xf0d52385e20267fe!8m2!3d39.2989953!4d-84.6933045 The IRS in Covington had upwards of 2,000 employees but has downsized: https://www.google.com/maps/search/irs+near+Covington,+KY/@39.0884048,-84.5160301,781m/data=!3m1!1e3 Cincinnati still has the big EPA office: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1354861,-84.5105397,3a,60y,341.98h,93.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDSDM9h7rEnNMHBejbQ54xA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 ...and the NIOSH, which is moving and getting a bigger office at MLK & Reading: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1190322,-84.4195937,3a,75y,281.31h,102.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scDbA7fTiBKJSvBGWq32fpg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
July 7, 20186 yr For those columbus folks who say that Columbus is not subsidized by Cleveland and Cincinnati---look at the graph above. Assume that Federal and local workers are a function of metropolitan size--so CLE would have more federal and local workers than columbus. then, on top of that, columbus has about 50,000 more govt' workers than CLE/Cinci. So about 50-60k state workers beyond what is proportional---that Cleveland and Cinci are paying for that are, in turn, shopping/eating/buying homes, etc. in Columbus pulling up that economy. In terms of state contributions of sales and income taxes, Cuyahoga County is 3rd of the big 3. Here were the net contributions in that regard by metro: Cincinnati: $465,044,791 Columbus: $464,783,998 Cleveland: $309,373,270 https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2017/03/as_donor_counties_cuyahoga_fra.html Franklin County was the highest donor of sales taxes, but the lowest in income taxes, and overall #2 of all counties in the state. This was in 2014, so the numbers may have shifted some since then with Franklin County- and the overall metro- growing so fast. So no, I don't think Columbus is subsidized nearly to the extent you're claiming here. I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I think the argument is about net regional transfers, which that Cleveland.com data dump doesn't get into. Well if someone wants to provide data on how Cleveland/Cincinnati metro dollars end up in Columbus, I would like to see them. I would also like to know how the Columbus metro is putting almost half a billion into the rest of the state, but it's also being subsidized. It seems to me the only thing this data shows is that the 3-Cs hold up the rest of the state, not that they're subsidizing each other, but again, if anyone has specific regional transfer information, some links would be great.
July 7, 20186 yr For those columbus folks who say that Columbus is not subsidized by Cleveland and Cincinnati---look at the graph above. Assume that Federal and local workers are a function of metropolitan size--so CLE would have more federal and local workers than columbus. then, on top of that, columbus has about 50,000 more govt' workers than CLE/Cinci. So about 50-60k state workers beyond what is proportional---that Cleveland and Cinci are paying for that are, in turn, shopping/eating/buying homes, etc. in Columbus pulling up that economy. It doesn't matter. There are all sorts of state capitals all over the country that aren't thriving. Lansing. Madison. Lincoln. Jefferson City. Tallahassee. Trenton. Have you been to these towns? Plenty of them are thriving. Madison and Lincoln in particular. As for some of the others, they just wouldn't exist if it wasn't for government jobs.
July 7, 20186 yr Walking up and down short north you will see this hip vibe. Musicians on the street, a lot of pedestrians of different back grounds and diversity. Food trucks on a lot of blocks, a lot of eclectic shopse bars, a lot of late night food options (loved cluck a doodle do by the udf convience store). Risking taking this further off-topic, but going back to the initial comment that started this whole thing... I'm actually curious where you went troeros[/member] in the short north that gave you the impression that it caters mostly to OSU students? What are some of the restaurants, shops, and galleries you visited? I'm asking because the only two places you mentioned by name, Cluck a Doodle Doo and UDF, are directly on the OSU campus (the Ohio Union is across the street) and yet you seem surprised to have encountered students there
July 8, 20186 yr Well if someone wants to provide data on how Cleveland/Cincinnati metro dollars end up in Columbus, I would like to see them. I would also like to know how the Columbus metro is putting almost half a billion into the rest of the state, but it's also being subsidized. It seems to me the only thing this data shows is that the 3-Cs hold up the rest of the state, not that they're subsidizing each other, but again, if anyone has specific regional transfer information, some links would be great. No one has detailed data, because it would be a serious undertaking to tally up state spending by geography. But, for example, the state spent about $75M in direct operating subsidy ("State Share of Instruction") for Cleveland State vs. $384M for Ohio State in FY 2018 (which excludes another huge bucket of "other government support" OSU shows in its budget). This is direct appropriation of general revenue, not fee or tuition revenue. Similarly, the centralized functions of state government are (obviously) disproportionately located in Columbus. So yes, Columbus disproportionately contributes to "the state," but the state spends its money disproportionately in Columbus. That's the argument. None of this really moves me though. Salaries of centralized state functions are a small part of the state budget and state subsidies of higher ed have been pretty stagnant, I believe. These things are ever small parts of Columbus's growing, diversified economy.
July 8, 20186 yr I agree that the importance of Columbus being a capital and the presence of Ohio State are generally overstated, especially in regards to Columbus' growth in the past generation. I will note that the impact of both these institutions extends beyond just the state budget. Lobbyists, lawyers, contractors, industry leaders, etc. need to regularly to interact with the state government which translates into hotels, restaurants, tourism, etc. One of my cousins is a lawyer in Cincinnati, but regularly travels to Columbus for important cases, and often stays for multiple nights. Another of my cousins lives in Springfield, Illinois which has a small but significant urban neighborhood catering to traveling professionals and those stuck in Springfield for work. These trips create a real boost the economy, especially in downturns because government and education work is more or less recession proof. I think it's illustrative to look at Illinois to determine the importance of the capital and state university. Central Illinois has a peculiar development where there are 4 similar sized cities (Peoria, Bloomington, Champaign, Springfield) about equidistant from each other. Typically we'd expect one to gain an edge over the others, become the dominate metro, and eventually capture the development of the others. This didn't happen because each has a large economic driver keeping it viable when it otherwise it wouldn't: Peoria - Caterpillar HQ (Market cap $80B, #60 on Fortune 500) Bloomington - Illinois State University (20,000 students) Champaign - University of Illinois (45,000 students; significant research) Springfield - capital of 5th largest state Ohio State (60,000 students) is almost as large as ISU and UIUC combined, and Ohio only has a million less people than Illinois so the capital effect is probably similar. So in a sense Columbus is what would have happened if 3 or 4 of those institutions were in the same city. The combined population of the 4 Illinois metros is 1 million, or 615,000 if you exclude Peoria. If Columbus were just Ohio State + state capital, its population might be somewhere on the lower end of that range. Madison has a metro population of 565,000 so the math sort of works. It's interesting to think about how different Illinois would look if this combined city existed. Would it be large enough to fight brain drain to Chicago and St. Louis? Would Illinois politics be less dysfunctional? Would Illinois have a better football team?
July 8, 20186 yr I think people also like to undersell how big Columbus was even in the past, simply because Cincinnati and Cleveland were so much larger. Even in 1890, Columbus had about 90,000 people living there, whereas Springfield only had 25,000. Jefferson City only had 7,000 people in 1890, which proportionally was way smaller than either KC or StL. Columbus was pretty neck-and-neck with Indy until the formation of Unigov (which of course Columbus has now surpassed), and Indianapolis has pretty much always been the dominant city in Indiana. Columbus was always an "actual" city despite its roots as a planned capital, whereas some of these other midwestern capitals were really nothing more than a convenient place for the state legislature to meet for a few months. “To an Ohio resident - wherever he lives - some other part of his state seems unreal.”
July 8, 20186 yr Well if someone wants to provide data on how Cleveland/Cincinnati metro dollars end up in Columbus, I would like to see them. I would also like to know how the Columbus metro is putting almost half a billion into the rest of the state, but it's also being subsidized. It seems to me the only thing this data shows is that the 3-Cs hold up the rest of the state, not that they're subsidizing each other, but again, if anyone has specific regional transfer information, some links would be great. No one has detailed data, because it would be a serious undertaking to tally up state spending by geography. But, for example, the state spent about $75M in direct operating subsidy ("State Share of Instruction") for Cleveland State vs. $384M for Ohio State in FY 2018 (which excludes another huge bucket of "other government support" OSU shows in its budget). This is direct appropriation of general revenue, not fee or tuition revenue. Similarly, the centralized functions of state government are (obviously) disproportionately located in Columbus. So yes, Columbus disproportionately contributes to "the state," but the state spends its money disproportionately in Columbus. That's the argument. None of this really moves me though. Salaries of centralized state functions are a small part of the state budget and state subsidies of higher ed have been pretty stagnant, I believe. These things are ever small parts of Columbus's growing, diversified economy. That doesn't support the claim at all, actually. First, the claim was that money flows between regions are largely TO Columbus from the rest of the state, but you admit that no one has any data to back it up. Which means that we can't assume that the money Columbus is sending to the state doesn't eventually make it back there instead of money from elsewhere. Second, you assume that Ohio State, a much larger university than Cleveland State, receiving more overall funding means there's some unfair and disproportionate subsidy going on. The OSU thing has been brought up before, and OSU's % of funding from the state is smaller than Cleveland State's, despite the lower total. It's also been declining over time. CS gets a higher amount of its funding from the state than OSU does, even if it gets a lower total. And of course none of this deals with the economic benefits the state receives through things like research, patents, education retention, sports, merchandise sales, business and economic development programs, etc. that come from OSU. There is pretty much zero chance here that OSU is some kind of net economic drain on the rest of the state, and the suggestion is ridiculous to me. This article (with a study link) and others support that public investment in universities in Ohio has an economic return more than 4x greater than the state funding they receive. https://news.osu.edu/news/2018/06/13/new-study-shows-ohios-public-universities-added-42-billion-in-income-to-states-economy/ And here's an article about ONLY the Agricultural Research and Development Center generates over $1 billion for the state, or how the Wexner Center generates almost $2 billion. https://www.osu.edu/highpoints/economicimpact/ Economic impact reports going back at least through the mid-1990s give numbers that OSU, individually, produces several times more economic return for the state than it gets in state dollars. A simple Google search will provide links to many of them. So again, the State, NOT just Columbus, is a beneficiary of OSU, not a PayDay Loan for it. Higher education is a fantastic investment for states to make. In any case, this is one of those claims that will forever rear its head because facts aren't important. The narrative that Columbus is stealing from the rest of the state has been around for a very long time now, and no one is going to be convinced by data.
July 8, 20186 yr ^You keep saying "the state" as if it's a thing separate and apart from the regions. It's not. If OSU benefits "the state," but those benefits occur disproportionately in Columbus (which of course is true), that doesn't disprove the argument. Like I said, this argument doesn't do much for me. I would never use the word "unfair." Universities and state offices need to be located somewhere and Columbus is so much more than these things. But arguing that major employers funded entirely or in part from tax dollars collected at a much larger geographic level aren't a net benefit to a city or region is delusional. This is painfully obvious every time the federal government want to shut down a military base or cancel a defense contract.
July 8, 20186 yr ^You keep saying "the state" as if it's a thing separate and apart from the regions. It's not. If OSU benefits "the state," but those benefits occur disproportionately in Columbus (which of course is true), that doesn't disprove the argument. Like I said, this argument doesn't do much for me. I would never use the word "unfair." Universities and state offices need to be located somewhere and Columbus is so much more than these things. But arguing that major employers funded entirely or in part from tax dollars collected at a much larger geographic level aren't a net benefit to a city or region is delusional. This is painfully obvious every time the federal government want to shut down a military base or cancel a defense contract. Even if that were true- which no one has provided a single bit of evidence to support- an economically strong Columbus isn't good for Ohio economically?? How would that be any different than Cleveland State, which receives a larger % of its funding from the state than OSU does? Why is it that I'm the only one providing links and studies and data, but the insinuation is that I'm delusional for arguing against a position that no one can factually support? This is how this debate always goes, and it's an obvious waste of time.
July 8, 20186 yr Have you been to these towns? Plenty of them are thriving. Madison and Lincoln in particular. As for some of the others, they just wouldn't exist if it wasn't for government jobs. Yeah I've been to them, plus places like Montpelier, VT, which hardly qualifies as a "place". The fact is that nobody was complaining about Columbus hogging the state government jobs until quite recently. And people are are ignoring the fact that the federal government has for more jobs to spread around, and that my hometown, Cincinnati, had thousands of jobs related to the nuclear weapons industry that disappeared in the 1990s. I grew up about five miles from the plant and its closure was a big deal when I was a kid. People argued against its closure in order to preserve jobs...even though it was building crap we didn't need and polluting the hell out of the area. There are just way too many "struggling" big towns and small cities out there across the Midwest for the federal government and their respective states to plop down 50-100 jobs in each. That many jobs won't make a big difference, either. It's like adding a middle school.
July 8, 20186 yr Cleveland State, which receives a larger % of its funding from the state than OSU does? Why does this matter? More money (by a long shot) flows to Columbus to support its state university. The funding per capita (of metro residents) would be a more meaningful metric than per student. That funding has a much larger beneficial effect to the local economy, period. If you want to talk about net benefit to the state vs. public spending, how about CWRU? As far as research goes, I would say CWRU provides an even greater benefit to Ohio, with no state subsidy. Why is it that I'm the only one providing links and studies and data, but the insinuation is that I'm delusional for arguing against a position that no one can factually support? This is how this debate always goes, and it's an obvious waste of time. Your "facts" (a large portion of which are opinions) don't actually prove what you think they do.
July 8, 20186 yr Cleveland State, which receives a larger % of its funding from the state than OSU does? Why does this matter? More money (by a long shot) flows to Columbus to support its state university. The funding per capita (of metro residents) would be a more meaningful metric than per student. That funding has a much larger beneficial effect to the local economy, period. If you want to talk about net benefit to the state vs. public spending, how about CWRU? As far as research goes, I would say CWRU provides an even greater benefit to Ohio, with no state subsidy. Why is it that I'm the only one providing links and studies and data, but the insinuation is that I'm delusional for arguing against a position that no one can factually support? This is how this debate always goes, and it's an obvious waste of time. Your "facts" (a large portion of which are opinions) don't actually prove what you think they do. So just a recap... 1. It was claimed, without any proof, that Columbus is a net recipient of state public dollars, and that even if Columbus is a net contributor of tax dollars to the rest of the state, another claim is that Columbus is receiving targeted funneling of dollars from specific regions... again, with not a lick of proof. 2. Twice, people have said more money flows to OSU than CSU. Not a single link provided. 3. It was claimed that OSU provides no significant benefit to the rest of the state outside of the local area, with, you guessed it, no facts presented! 4. You have claimed that funding per-capita would be more meaningful than per-student. You provide no study making this argument or why it's better. Nor do you even provide a link to per-capita numbers. But wait, there's more. 5. You then claim that CWRU provides a greater benefit to Ohio than OSU- yep, with no corresponding evidence. But I literally provide 3 different links to real numbers and economic impact studies, but I'm accused of being delusional and spreading opinions only. I swear to god, humans suck.
July 9, 20186 yr ^^I should have posted the links in my post: State Share of Instruction to OSU: pdf page 8 of https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/fy18_budget_book_-_final.pdf State Share of Instruction to CSU pdf page 6 of https://www.csuohio.edu/sites/default/files/FY18%20Budget%20Book.pdf Ohio State is located in Columbus (specifically, 34K of OSU's total 36K FTE is in Columbus): https://hr.osu.edu/services/statistics-reports/ Columbus is the capital of Ohio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus,_Ohio Location of centralized state functions: you can click on the link of any state agency here: http://www.ohio.gov/agencies/ For strong evidence that Columbus has employment benefit from being state capital see PittsburgoDelendaEst[/member] 's the government employment table on the nifty graph he posted on the previous page of this thread I'm sure this sounds disingenuous, but please understand that I don't think having the flagship state university or state capital is "cheating" or cheapens Columbus's assent in any way. These are terrific assets to the city, the same way the Clinic is to Cleveland. Seems totally weird to me to deny they are important assets to the local economy or that they are funded in part through statewide taxation. ADDENDUM: this is a good example about what I meant when you talked about things benefiting "the state" and how that doesn't mean anything in the context of this conversation: And here's an article about ONLY the Agricultural Research and Development Center generates over $1 billion for the state, or how the Wexner Center generates almost $2 billion. https://www.osu.edu/highpoints/economicimpact/ From that puff piece: The Wexner Medical Center expansion and construction of the new James Cancer Hospital and Solove Research Institute and Critical Care Center supports 15,000 jobs in our local community: 5,000 construction jobs 6,000 direct full-time jobs 4,000 indirect full-time jobs supported through spending by Ohio State and its patients and visitors The Wexner Medical Center expansion project will generate $1.7 billion in economic impact for Ohio by 2015. Ohio State already generates $2.4 billion in economic impact each year.Funds from state tax incentives applied to the Wexner Medical Center expansion will be used by Ohio State to contribute to Partners Achieving Community Transformation, a revitalization project in Columbus's Near East Side neighborhood. That piece says "the state" but the things it itemizes are all localized economic benefits.
July 9, 20186 yr ^"I swear to god, humans suck." Easy now.... I think you're in denial that Columbus benefits significantly from the state. Lansing, MI. Big state government. Big university. The place sucks.
July 9, 20186 yr ^^I should have posted the links in my post: State Share of Instruction to OSU: pdf page 8 of https://busfin.osu.edu/sites/default/files/fy18_budget_book_-_final.pdf State Share of Instruction to CSU pdf page 6 of https://www.csuohio.edu/sites/default/files/FY18%20Budget%20Book.pdf Ohio State is located in Columbus (specifically, 34K of OSU's total 36K FTE is in Columbus): https://hr.osu.edu/services/statistics-reports/ Columbus is the capital of Ohio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus,_Ohio Location of centralized state functions: you can click on the link of any state agency here: http://www.ohio.gov/agencies/ For strong evidence that Columbus has employment benefit from being state capital see PittsburgoDelendaEst[/member] 's the government employment table on the nifty graph he posted on the previous page of this thread I'm sure this sounds disingenuous, but please understand that I don't think having the flagship state university or state capital is "cheating" or cheapens Columbus's assent in any way. These are terrific assets to the city, the same way the Clinic is to Cleveland. Seems totally weird to me to deny they are important assets to the local economy or that they are funded in part through statewide taxation. ADDENDUM: this is a good example about what I meant when you talked about things benefiting "the state" and how that doesn't mean anything in the context of this conversation: And here's an article about ONLY the Agricultural Research and Development Center generates over $1 billion for the state, or how the Wexner Center generates almost $2 billion. https://www.osu.edu/highpoints/economicimpact/ From that puff piece: The Wexner Medical Center expansion and construction of the new James Cancer Hospital and Solove Research Institute and Critical Care Center supports 15,000 jobs in our local community: 5,000 construction jobs 6,000 direct full-time jobs 4,000 indirect full-time jobs supported through spending by Ohio State and its patients and visitors The Wexner Medical Center expansion project will generate $1.7 billion in economic impact for Ohio by 2015. Ohio State already generates $2.4 billion in economic impact each year.Funds from state tax incentives applied to the Wexner Medical Center expansion will be used by Ohio State to contribute to Partners Achieving Community Transformation, a revitalization project in Columbus's Near East Side neighborhood. That piece says "the state" but the things it itemizes are all localized economic benefits. Your links- thanks for them- still don't really address the claims made. The first is just the budget. OSU, like all public universities, receives some state funding (which was never in dispute). 10x the state funding amount comes from other sources. The 2nd link is CSU's budget, of which just over 30% comes from the state, though obvious much less in total than OSU gets. Size and influence in this case are clearly different. Either way, neither of those links address where the money comes from- certainly not by any listed region. I'm not sure what you're trying to show with the 3rd link. It would be of no surprise that most employees of OSU are at the main campus. 4th link- no **it. 5th link- the link doesn't work. 6th sorta link- The chart is highly deceiving. First, not all those jobs are state jobs. There are federal and local, and include everything from local school teachers to bus drivers (which city residents pay for directly) and people at the DSCC. Second, government-based jobs in Columbus are in line with all major Ohio cities relative to size. Dayton actually has the largest % of its economy based on government jobs in Ohio. If you don't believe me... www.bls.gov. The vast majority of the city/metro economy is made up of other industries. You're making a straw man. I literally never denied that having OSU isn't a positive economic asset for Columbus. In fact, I'm pretty sure I stated that investment in higher education was a fantastic economic return for Ohio. Oh, and if those universities and colleges are such a benefit to the local area, why are people trying to single out OSU only in this regard? That would apply to CSU, Toledo, etc. also, right? Why is it that Columbus is also held to a completely different standard? So you're of the belief that those employees don't pay state income taxes? That they don't buy things and consume goods? That literally every dollar made in the Columbus region never benefits the rest of the state whatsoever? That would be quite the feat. And yes, all of this debate is designed to mitigate any success in Columbus. They're stealing from everywhere else, so it's not *real* success. They're not really doing anything well except mooching on Ohio. It's the same story as always.
July 9, 20186 yr I think overall there is no doubt that Columbus benefits a bit from being the State Capital, as Cincy benefits from having NIOSH and other government jobs, the FBI, etc. and same with Cleveland. Maybe there is a slight advantage to Columbus and you could claim that the rest of the state helps with some portion of the Columbus economy more than Cincy or Cleveland, but the thing is that Columbus is a big city, and has tons of other industries to stand out on it's own. If you moved the capitol from Columbus to Cincinnati, how much would that hurt Columbus and how much would it gain for Cincy? I have no idea and I don't think any of us do anyways, and it's all a moot point. Clearly looking at all state capitols across the USA, some are doing well, and some aren't. I think Columbus is a case of doing really well on it's own seperate from the Government and the state jobs added on top just are icing on the cake. I think Cincy people need to focus on the things we need to focus on which I believe we are. As Jake has mentioned before, 2,000 tech bros making $120k/year can really flip an area, that's what Cincy needs to focus on and same with Columbus (which they are) and Cleveland (which they are). Columbus is obviously doing great even when government changes, so they have a great economic base.
July 9, 20186 yr Have you been to these towns? Plenty of them are thriving. Madison and Lincoln in particular. As for some of the others, they just wouldn't exist if it wasn't for government jobs. Yeah I've been to them, plus places like Montpelier, VT, which hardly qualifies as a "place". The fact is that nobody was complaining about Columbus hogging the state government jobs until quite recently. And people are are ignoring the fact that the federal government has for more jobs to spread around, and that my hometown, Cincinnati, had thousands of jobs related to the nuclear weapons industry that disappeared in the 1990s. I grew up about five miles from the plant and its closure was a big deal when I was a kid. People argued against its closure in order to preserve jobs...even though it was building crap we didn't need and polluting the hell out of the area. There are just way too many "struggling" big towns and small cities out there across the Midwest for the federal government and their respective states to plop down 50-100 jobs in each. That many jobs won't make a big difference, either. It's like adding a middle school. This is true. When the economies of the Legacy cities was booming, they did not care about OSU and the State government being in Cbus-they had their manufacturing and did not care that Cbus was actually underrepresented in manufacturing by comparison. Who was complaining about this stuff then? And if those manufacturing jobs were still around for those cities, they would not care that much either now. Why even bring it up?-it is not like they are going to break up OSU or the State government now and redistribute it around the state. There would not be enough to redistribute fairly to all of the cities-bigger and smaller-to make that much of a difference. Legacy cities have to look at other ways to bolster their economies and many of the larger ones like Cleveland and Cincinnati have enormous resources that they just have to take advantage of. Their are regional problems (like way too many municipalities duplicating services, fractured relationships between city and a multitude of suburbs, etc) that are far more important than complaining about Columbus having OSU and State government. It is hardly a thing plotted by Cbus to have those given they started in 1870 and 1812, respectively. I know everyone is gonna hate this post so go ahead and hate. lol. *shrug* oh well.
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