December 20, 20231 yr You’re correct it’s 2023, I was more or less thinking July 2022-July 2023 which incorporates data for half of 2022 when I said that. Anyhow, good news.
December 24, 20231 yr Back in September, I posted the latest numbers for counties on ethnicity. This time, here are the new numbers of foreign-born residents by place of birth for cities in 2022. I will break it down by continent, region and country, as well as the % of all foreign-born residents. First up is Europe. Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% Total Europeans and % of All Foreign-Born Cincinnati: 2,387 11.42% Cleveland: 4,095 18.57% Columbus: 7,850 6.22% Total Europeans by Region and % of All European Foreign-Born Northern Europe Cincinnati: 435 18.22% Cleveland: 407 9.94% Columbus: 1,329 16.93% Eastern Europe Cincinnati: 1,101 46.12% Cleveland: 2,410 58.85% Columbus: 4,167 53.08% Southern Europe Cincinnati: 296 12.40% Cleveland: 591 14.43% Columbus: 744 9.48% Western Europe Cincinnati: 555 23.25% Cleveland: 687 16.78% Columbus: 1,610 20.51% Top 5 European Nations of Origin and % of All European Foreign-Born Cincinnati Romania: 270 11.31% Germany: 267 11.19% Spain: 192 8.04% France: 187 7.83% England: 150 6.28% Cleveland Romania: 519 12.67% Germany: 518 12.65% Poland: 459 11.21% Italy: 325 7.94% Ukraine: 312 7.62% Columbus Ukraine: 1,147 14.61% Germany: 852 10.85% Russia: 829 10.56% England: 537 6.84% Macedonia: 438 5.58% Total European Nations of Origin with at least 100 Foreign-Born Residents Cincinnati: 6 Cleveland: 10 Columbus: 18 Edited December 24, 20231 yr by jonoh81
December 24, 20231 yr Next up, Asian Foreign-Born Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% Total Asians and % of All Foreign-Born Cincinnati: 6,262 29.96% Cleveland: 9,064 41.11% Columbus: 43,515 34.48% Total Asians by Region and % of All Asian Foreign-Born Eastern Asia Cincinnati: 2,211 35.31% Cleveland: 2,383 26.29% Columbus: 10,458 24.03% South-Central Asia Cincinnati: 2,404 38.39% Cleveland: 3,143 34.68% Columbus: 22,104 50.8% South-Eastern Asia Cincinnati: 1,080 17.25% Cleveland: 1,370 15.11% Columbus: 6,597 15.16% Western Asia Cincinnati: 546 8.72% Cleveland: 1,794 19.79% Columbus: 4,200 9.65% Top 5 Asian Nations of Origin and % of All Asian Foreign-Born Cincinnati India: 1,379 22.02% China: 1,312 20.95% Korea: 520 8.3% Vietnam: 390 6.23% Philippines: 380 6.07% Cleveland China: 1,811 19.98% India: 1,216 13.42% Bhutan: 674 7.44% Philippines: 618 6.82% Syria: 592 6.53% Columbus India: 12,644 29.06% China: 6,416 14.74% Bhutan: 4,057 9.32% Nepal: 2,662 6.12% Philippines: 2,064 4.74% Total Asian Nations of Origin with at least 100 Foreign-Born Residents Cincinnati: 12 Cleveland: 18 Columbus: 32
December 24, 20231 yr That's a stunning disparity Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 24, 20231 yr Columbus has been on a roll for awhile now and l think with Intel and a few other huge investments it's growth rate will begin to rapidly increase. Investment begets investment. Growth begets growth. Being the capital is one thing but I think the real catalyst is OSU. We can only hope our local universities could follow suit. Even the University of Cincinnati provides a much greater economic impact than Cleveland State which, while undergoing a decent physical upgrade continues to see enrollment shrink.
December 24, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, cadmen said: Columbus has been on a roll for awhile now and l think with Intel and a few other huge investments it's growth rate will begin to rapidly increase. Investment begets investment. Growth begets growth. Being the capital is one thing but I think the real catalyst is OSU. We can only hope our local universities could follow suit. Even the University of Cincinnati provides a much greater economic impact than Cleveland State which, while undergoing a decent physical upgrade continues to see enrollment shrink. hopefully csu can 'add more programs' their way out of shrinking enrollment, but i dk what doing that is limited by? 🤷♂️
December 24, 20231 yr I think the city numbers are really no surprise here. Those coming to Cleveland, by-in-large, have been settling in the suburbs. The numbers between Cuyahoga and Franklin aren’t so disparate at the county level. The city will continue to attract high earning college educated folks but unlikely first generational immigrants due to the lack of affordable housing. Everything being built is simply unaffordable for most first generation immigrants. This is certainly the case in the “hot” neighborhoods of Columbus too but given the expanse of the city there are affordable areas that immigrants can settle. In Cleveland, the choice is to go just beyond the border to places like Parma.
December 24, 20231 yr African Foreign-Born Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% Total Africans and % of All Foreign-Born Cincinnati: 6,719 32.15% Cleveland: 2,625 11.9% Columbus: 46,555 36.89% Total Africans by Region and % of All African Foreign-Born Eastern Africa Cincinnati: 1,807 26.89% Cleveland: 667 25.41% Columbus: 21,447 46.07% Middle Africa Cincinnati: 529 7.87% Cleveland: 347 13.22% Columbus: 2,254 4.84% Northern Africa Cincinnati: 758 11.28% Cleveland: 581 22.13% Columbus: 4,243 9.11% Southern Africa Cincinnati: 79 1.18% Cleveland: 49 1.87% Columbus: 650 1.4% Western Africa Cincinnati: 2,717 40.44% Cleveland: 981 37.37% Columbus: 15,109 32.45% Top 5 African Nations of Origin and % of All African Foreign-Born Cincinnati Ethiopia: 1,100 16.37% Ivory Coast: 655 9.75% Senegal: 509 7.58% Nigeria: 470 7.0% Congo: 448 6.67% Cleveland Nigeria: 555 21.14% Morocco: 320 12.19% Congo: 269 10.25% Kenya: 215 8.19% Tanzania: 212 8.08% Columbus Somalia: 11,494 24.69% Ghana: 5,771 12.4% Ethiopia: 3,694 7.93% Kenya: 3,232 6.94% Sierra Leone: 2,093 4.5% Total African Nations of Origin with at least 100 Foreign-Born Residents Cincinnati: 12 Cleveland: 8 Columbus: 23
December 24, 20231 yr North America Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% Total North Americans and % of All Foreign-Born Cincinnati: 4,766 22.8% Cleveland: 5,285 23.97% Columbus: 23,671 18.75% Total North Americans by Region and % of All North American Foreign-Born Caribbean Cincinnati: 689 14.46% Cleveland: 1,728 32.7% Columbus: 5,544 23.42% Central America Cincinnati: 3,687 77.36% Cleveland: 3,046 57.63% Columbus: 16,795 70.95% Northern America Cincinnati: 390 8.18% Cleveland: 511 9.67% Columbus: 1,332 5.63% Top 5 North American Nations of Origin and % of All North American Foreign-Born Cincinnati Guatemala: 1,922 40.33% Mexico: 912 19.14% Honduras: 499 10.47% Jamaica: 442 9.27% Canada: 390 8.18% Cleveland Mexico: 1,222 23.12% Dominican Republic: 794 15.02% Guatemala: 614 11.62% El Salvador: 417 7.89% Honduras: 416 7.87% Columbus Mexico: 10,034 42.39% El Salvador: 3,404 14.38% Dominican Republic: 2,584 10.92% Honduras: 1,763 7.45% Haiti: 1,581 6.68% Total North American Nations of Origin with at least 100 Foreign-Born Residents Cincinnati: 6 Cleveland: 12 Columbus: 13
December 24, 20231 yr South America Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% Total South Americans and % of All Foreign-Born Cincinnati: 673 3.22% Cleveland: 942 4.27% Columbus: 4,201 3.33% Total South Americans by Region and % of All South American Foreign-Born The census doesn't break down South America by regions. Top 5 South American Nations of Origin and % of All South American Foreign-Born Residents Cincinnati Colombia: 179 26.6% Argentina: 146 21.69% Brazil: 105 15.6% Chile: 99 14.715 Peru: 54 8.02% Cleveland Guyana: 292 31.0% Peru: 184 19.53% Colombia: 147 15.61% Ecuador: 147 15.61% Brazil: 98 10.4% Columbus Venezuela: 1,264 30.09% Brazil: 1,076 25.61% Colombia: 777 18.5% Ecuador: 544 12.95% Peru: 185 4.4% Total South American Nations of Origin with at least 100 Foreign-Born Residents Cincinnati: 3 Cleveland: 4 Columbus: 7
December 24, 20231 yr Oceania is a very small part of overall foreign-born in the 3-Cs. Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% Total Oceanians and % of All Foreign-Born Cincinnati: 94 0.45% Cleveland: 39 0.18% Columbus: 423 0.34% Total Oceanians by Region and % of All Oceanian Foreign-Born The census does not break this area down by region. There are just a handful of nations tallied within this region, with Australia being the main one. Here is the % of total for Australians of all Oceanians. Cincinnati: 87 92.55% Cleveland: 39 100% Columbus: 186 43.97%
December 24, 20231 yr 5 hours ago, mrnyc said: hopefully csu can 'add more programs' their way out of shrinking enrollment, but i dk what doing that is limited by? 🤷♂️ I don't know what programs they have but healthcare and business at most schools dwarf everything else so that's tough as well.
December 24, 20231 yr 11 hours ago, KJP said: That's a stunning disparity Total Foreign-Born from all Continents and % of Total Population Cincinnati: 20,901 6.75% Cleveland: 22,050 6.1% Columbus: 126,215 13.9% Of course this is extremely well trod territory on UO, but comparing City (municipality) to City is borderline useless when the "City" is a small proportion of the "city", as it is in Cincinnati and Cleveland. Most of our immigrants are just over borders with Lakewood, Parma, the Heights, etc.
December 24, 20231 yr Finally, here are the biggest changes between 2010-2022 for each city. Total Foreign-Born Change and % Change Cincinnati: +7,452 +55.41% Cleveland: +3,118 +16.47% Columbus: +48,094 +61.56% Top 10 Nations of Origin with the Largest Total Growth Cincinnati Ethiopia: +938 Guatemala: +901 Ivory Coast +655 India: +606 China: +593 Senegal: +509 Honduras: +452 Congo: +448 Nigeria: +447 Algeria: +407 Cleveland Bhutan: +674 Syria: +502 Nepal: +496 Dominican Republic: +360 Afghanistan: +300 China: +283 Congo: +269 Morocco: +265 Nigeria: +264 Honduras: +252 Columbus India: +4,654 Somalia: +4,380 Bhutan: +4,057 Ghana: +3,390 China: +2,535 Nepal: +2,514 Ethiopia: +2,237 El Salvador: +1,862 Kenya: +1,841 Dominican Republic: +1,780 Total Nations of Origin that Grew by at least 500 Cincinnati: 6 Cleveland: 2 Columbus: 27 Top 10 Nations of Origin with the Largest % Growth Cincinnati Bahamas: +3250.0% Nigeria: +1943.48% Nepal: +1658.33% Honduras: +961.7% Iraq: +888.89% Ethiopia: +579.01% Chile: +560.0% Ghana: +477.5% Argentina: +461.54% Pakistan: +380.0% Cleveland India: +810.53% West Indies: +778.95% Kenya: +696.3% Syria: +557.78% Morocco: +481.82% Ireland: +310.34% Ethiopia: +280.95% Nicaragua: +252.17% Pakistan: +244.62% Singapore: +244.44% Columbus Nepal: +1698.65% Venezuela: +1244.68% Sudan: +1113.04% Afghanistan: +726.32% Cameroon: +506.53% Eritrea: +353.57% Morocco: +335.25% South Africa: +326.67% Macedonia: +313.21% Honduras: +274.31% Total Nations of Origin that Grew by at least 100% Cincinnati: 49 Cleveland: 43 Columbus: 48
December 24, 20231 yr 31 minutes ago, X said: Of course this is extremely well trod territory on UO, but comparing City (municipality) to City is borderline useless when the "City" is a small proportion of the "city", as it is in Cincinnati and Cleveland. Most of our immigrants are just over borders with Lakewood, Parma, the Heights, etc. If you look at county and metro numbers, there's still a large disparity, though. The Columbus metro had over 211K foreign-born, while both Cincinnati and Cleveland were between 121K-125K, for example. What's also interesting is that Columbus' foreign-born population is much more concentrated in the city itself, and has the highest concentration in the core county. % of Total Metro Foreign-born in Core City Cincinnati: 16.71% Cleveland: 18.15% Columbus: 59.69% % of Metro Foreign-born in Core County Hamilton: 39.28% Cuyahoga: 77.26% Franklin: 78.71% You could argue the larger city boundaries include more of that population in Columbus, since Cuyahoga and Franklin have a similar county level, but definitely not for Cincinnati, which has the majority of its immigrant population out in the greater metro than in Hamilton County. Edited December 24, 20231 yr by jonoh81
December 24, 20231 yr 2 hours ago, jonoh81 said: If you look at county and metro numbers, there's still a large disparity, though. The Columbus metro had over 211K foreign-born, while both Cincinnati and Cleveland were between 121K-125K, for example. What's also interesting is that Columbus' foreign-born population is much more concentrated in the city itself, and has the highest concentration in the core county. % of Total Metro Foreign-born in Core City Cincinnati: 16.71% Cleveland: 18.15% Columbus: 59.69% % of Metro Foreign-born in Core County Hamilton: 39.28% Cuyahoga: 77.26% Franklin: 78.71% You could argue the larger city boundaries include more of that population in Columbus, since Cuyahoga and Franklin have a similar county level, but definitely not for Cincinnati, which has the majority of its immigrant population out in the greater metro than in Hamilton County. It is still quite a disparity, no argument there. But not quite double, as opposed to 5x the amount or more. And of course, if Cleveland's boundaries were as broadly drawn as Columbus's then our % of total metro foreign born in core city numbers would be much closer, as well. In other words, these numbers are all very interesting to look at for each city, but the wrong unit of measurement to compare what is really happening with metropolitan immigration patterns.
December 24, 20231 yr for just about anything about people you have to look at city, county and metro. and yeah acreage too in order to take into account cle and cinci are basically 75 locked in sq mi — and columbus city limits are much larger and always growing.
December 24, 20231 yr Columbus has annexed very little since 2000. And much of that was Scioto Downs.
December 27, 20231 yr ^ well ok but technically that is always still growing lol. and columbus certainly could add more real estate and likely will in the future. but the point is you can always cinci vs cle anything all day long, but you often cant fairly add columbus into that when its its acreage is 3X more. columbus comparisons should more often be with similar sized cities — like chicago believe it or not as they are very very close in acreage size.
December 27, 20231 yr 11 hours ago, mrnyc said: ^ well ok but technically that is always still growing lol. and columbus certainly could add more real estate and likely will in the future. but the point is you can always cinci vs cle anything all day long, but you often cant fairly add columbus into that when its its acreage is 3X more. columbus comparisons should more often be with similar sized cities — like chicago believe it or not as they are very very close in acreage size. It's kind of a silly expectation to only compare places with exact or very similar size boundaries. You would be able to compare very few places that way, and being the same area size does not mean two places are in any way similar otherwise. Chicago and Columbus are not peer cities. There are lots of ways to measure, anyway. Urbanized area, county, metro, etc. We could even go down to the tract level and try to find comparable area sizes if you'd prefer, but I guarantee it'd be a mistake to assume Columbus only has more immigrants due to its larger boundaries, especially vs Cincinnati as I mentioned earlier. Edited December 27, 20231 yr by jonoh81
December 27, 20231 yr 9 hours ago, jonoh81 said: It's kind of a silly expectation to only compare places with exact or very similar size boundaries. You would be able to compare very few places that way, and being the same area size does not mean two places are in any way similar otherwise. Chicago and Columbus are not peer cities. There are lots of ways to measure, anyway. Urbanized area, county, metro, etc. We could even go down to the tract level and try to find comparable area sizes if you'd prefer, but I guarantee it'd be a mistake to assume Columbus only has more immigrants due to its larger boundaries, especially vs Cincinnati as I mentioned earlier. of course generally i agree with you for sure, but come on, 3X larger acreage is well beyond “kind of a silly expectation.” 2X would be my comfort max for most 1:1 city comparisons. further, if we are going to get down below cities to census tracts, which are equalized, well then you are actually agreeing with me. aren’t stats fun? 😂👍
December 28, 20231 yr 14 hours ago, mrnyc said: of course generally i agree with you for sure, but come on, 3X larger acreage is well beyond “kind of a silly expectation.” 2X would be my comfort max for most 1:1 city comparisons. further, if we are going to get down below cities to census tracts, which are equalized, well then you are actually agreeing with me. aren’t stats fun? 😂👍 I only mentioned census tracts because you should be able to find a more equitable area to compare, but there would still be complaints because of things like different geographical features and vacant land. So I don't really agree with the premise that going by area size necessarily means the comparison will be accepted anymore than city boundaries would be, and I don't think the results will be as equitable as people expect, anyway.
December 28, 20231 yr On 12/27/2023 at 8:54 AM, jonoh81 said: It's kind of a silly expectation to only compare places with exact or very similar size boundaries. It’s not silly at all. 52 minutes ago, jonoh81 said: I only mentioned census tracts because you should be able to find a more equitable area to compare, but there would still be complaints because of things like different geographical features and vacant land. So I don't really agree with the premise that going by area size necessarily means the comparison will be accepted anymore than city boundaries would be, and I don't think the results will be as equitable as people expect, anyway. Due to Columbus having such an extremely large boundary, using cities such as Louisville and Indianapolis would be much more comparable for discussion. If you’re serious about equitability and presenting quantitative data (and i don’t believe you are) the only honest way to compare Col to Cle is by dissecting them at the county or MSA level. Edited December 28, 20231 yr by Clefan98
December 28, 20231 yr We can argue about this all day but geographers are unanimous in the opinion that you should not be comparing cities like this. Cities are administrative geographies and were not created for statistical comparison. This is why MSAs exist. They do a decent (though not perfect) job of equalizing the area you are comparing.
December 28, 20231 yr It’s like how nature keeps evolving things into crabs: every thread turns into an MSA argument eventually.
December 28, 20231 yr Well if we're going to compare cities MSA is the fairest way. You get a more apples to apples comparison. Big geographic cities will have a natural advantage because they are not a reflection of the true size of a metro. And small geographic cites within a much larger region don't tell an accurate story either. The CSA which does not show the Akron area is a large undercount of our region. MSA is simply the most factual way to determine the size and clout of a region.
December 28, 20231 yr 9 minutes ago, cadmen said: Well if we're going to compare cities MSA is the fairest way. You get a more apples to apples comparison. Big geographic cities will have a natural advantage because they are not a reflection of the true size of a metro. And small geographic cites within a much larger region don't tell an accurate story either. The CSA which does not show the Akron area is a large undercount of our region. MSA is simply the most factual way to determine the size and clout of a region. The undercount is intentional, I suspect. Especially the way the metros have grown together to the point that there is a significant chunk of suburbs that doesn't preferentially identify with either city, The truth is Cleveland-Akron has become more like Minneapolis-St. Paul or Dallas-Fort Worth than two independent cities.
December 28, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, DEPACincy said: We can argue about this all day but geographers are unanimous in the opinion that you should not be comparing cities like this. Cities are administrative geographies and were not created for statistical comparison. This is why MSAs exist. They do a decent (though not perfect) job of equalizing the area you are comparing. How, though? MSA sizes are also very different from one another. Cincinnati's MSA area is more almost 1,700 square miles larger than Columbus and almost 2,100 square miles larger than Cleveland's, even with the recent addition of Ashtabula County. They're of somewhat similar populations, but people have been telling me you can't compare two places with very different area sizes to be fair.
December 28, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, Clefan98 said: It’s not silly at all. Due to Columbus having such an extremely large boundary, using cities such as Louisville and Indianapolis would be much more comparable for discussion. If you’re serious about equitability and presenting quantitative data (and i don’t believe you are) the only honest way to compare Col to Cle is by dissecting them at the county or MSA level. Louisville and Indianapolis are both like 120-140 square miles larger than Columbus. Columbus is not intergrated with Franklin County and barely takes up 40% of the county's land to begin with, so those places are not good comparisons if you are arguing that you cannot directly compare places with different area sizes. County sizes are also different, as are MSAs. So isn't it contradictory to say that it's only equitable to compare cities of equal sizes, but not counties or metros of equal size? So glad I'm getting insulted for providing some population figures, though. Fun. Since someone mentioned census tracts earlier, here are the foreign-born figures if all of the 3-Cs were about 75-77 square miles, the long-standing area size of Cleveland and Cincinnati. Cincinnati: 19,633 Cleveland: 18,636 Columbus: 27,522 And if you don't like that, here's county. Cuyahoga: 93,863 Hamilton: 49,129 Franklin: 166,436 And if you don't like that, here's metro. Cincinnati: 125,075 Cleveland: 121,491 Columbus: 211,452 Take them as you will, I couldn't care less at this point. Edited December 28, 20231 yr by jonoh81
December 28, 20231 yr I'll just say I appreciate the work that you do @jonoh81, especially as a Census nerd like myself. You and I know nothing is going to be "perfect" comparison for anyone. Urbanized area, CSA, MSA, County, City, Census Tract, they all have their "issues" that people would take with. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
December 28, 20231 yr 9 minutes ago, jonoh81 said: Since someone mentioned census tracts earlier, here are the foreign-born figures if all of the 3-Cs were about 75-77 square miles, the long-standing area size of Cleveland and Cincinnati. Cincinnati: 19,633 Cleveland: 18,636 Columbus: 27,522 Cincinnati over Cleveland stands out, to me, on this one. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
December 29, 20231 yr 6 hours ago, ColDayMan said: I'll just say I appreciate the work that you do @jonoh81, especially as a Census nerd like myself. You and I know nothing is going to be "perfect" comparison for anyone. Urbanized area, CSA, MSA, County, City, Census Tract, they all have their "issues" that people would take with. Thanks, and I honestly just wanted to share the data. There was no hidden agenda, otherwise. I'm controversial on a lot of other issues, but on census data, I am just a nerd who wants to share.
December 29, 20231 yr 53 minutes ago, jonoh81 said: Thanks, and I honestly just wanted to share the data. There was no hidden agenda, otherwise. I'm controversial on a lot of other issues, but on census data, I am just a nerd who wants to share. Myself and many others greatly appreciate the data. No matter what data you post, someone will find a way to take exception to it.
December 29, 20231 yr 8 hours ago, jonoh81 said: How, though? MSA sizes are also very different from one another. Cincinnati's MSA area is more almost 1,700 square miles larger than Columbus and almost 2,100 square miles larger than Cleveland's, even with the recent addition of Ashtabula County. They're of somewhat similar populations, but people have been telling me you can't compare two places with very different area sizes to be fair. MSAs are standardized based on commuting patterns and population density to get at a true city size. It's not perfect though. I personally prefer urbanized area, which I feel is a bit more exact. But MSA is the accepted standard for comparison. The thing is, both were created for statistical comparison. Comparing municipalities is never going to be helpful when you have better options. And I'm not attacking you. I appreciate you posting city data. It's interesting. I'm just also sharing information about how geographers prefer to compare urban areas.
December 29, 20231 yr 9 hours ago, GCrites said: There's always Jacksonville Florida Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuval!!
December 29, 20231 yr 19 hours ago, ColDayMan said: Cincinnati over Cleveland stands out, to me, on this one. I would think Lakewood, Parma and possibly Cleveland Heights/University Heights skim most of the immigrants. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 29, 20231 yr The interesting outlier in all of this to me is Syria. Cleveland apparently has many Syrian immigrants while Columbus and Cincinnati have few.
December 29, 20231 yr 12 hours ago, DEPACincy said: MSAs are standardized based on commuting patterns and population density to get at a true city size. It's not perfect though. I personally prefer urbanized area, which I feel is a bit more exact. But MSA is the accepted standard for comparison. The thing is, both were created for statistical comparison. Comparing municipalities is never going to be helpful when you have better options. And I'm not attacking you. I appreciate you posting city data. It's interesting. I'm just also sharing information about how geographers prefer to compare urban areas. MSAs are based on 2 things only, commuting patterns as you mentioned, and whether the two counties agree to be combined. Density isn't a consideration. People compare cities all the time, too, though. I think what this whole thing comes down to is that people don't always like what the results are, so we have to constantly move the goal posts when it comes to statistical data. People just want to use the measurement that makes their location look the best, and will change their own standards about what makes for a good comparison based on that. Not saying you do this, specifically, but clearly that's part of the disagreement for others. And I would argue a good geographer or demographer would compare and contrast all types of boundaries, not just one. They all show something a little different, so using just one presents an incomplete picture. Using MSA only, for example, cannot really show the breakdown of demographics between the city, core county and outer areas, just as using city boundary cannot show anything outside of it or at the smaller neighborhood level. They all have their their advantages and disadvantages. And just for the record in case anyone might take issue, I don't always just post city boundaries. I've posted data on metros, census tracts, city boundaries, counties, etc. I've never favored one over the other because I think they're all useful. Edited December 29, 20231 yr by jonoh81
December 30, 20231 yr 10 hours ago, jonoh81 said: MSAs are based on 2 things only, commuting patterns as you mentioned, and whether the two counties agree to be combined. Density isn't a consideration. People compare cities all the time, too, though. I think what this whole thing comes down to is that people don't always like what the results are, so we have to constantly move the goal posts when it comes to statistical data. People just want to use the measurement that makes their location look the best, and will change their own standards about what makes for a good comparison based on that. Not saying you do this, specifically, but clearly that's part of the disagreement for others. And I would argue a good geographer or demographer would compare and contrast all types of boundaries, not just one. They all show something a little different, so using just one presents an incomplete picture. Using MSA only, for example, cannot really show the breakdown of demographics between the city, core county and outer areas, just as using city boundary cannot show anything outside of it or at the smaller neighborhood level. They all have their their advantages and disadvantages. And just for the record in case anyone might take issue, I don't always just post city boundaries. I've posted data on metros, census tracts, city boundaries, counties, etc. I've never favored one over the other because I think they're all useful. Counties don't have any say about whether their included in an MSA. It's all about the criteria, which is strict. All counties that are part of an urbanized area (which has minimum density standards) are included, as well as outlying counties that meet commuting standards. And people definitely do compare cities all the time but they shouldn't. No credible academic would without a million caveats or a way to normalize the data. It's just not a useful thing to do. It creates more confusion than it does clarity. Like I said, it's fine and great to post data about cities. It's useful in the context of understanding the administrative boundary in question. It's just not useful at all for comparisons. Edited December 30, 20231 yr by DEPACincy
January 27, 20241 yr I don't know where to put this, so... I recently looked at commuting data for all Ohio cities with populations of 25K or more. Specifically, I was interested in how the means of commuting in these cities had changed between 2010 and 2022, the latest year available for the data. I compared the following categories: Drove Alone, Carpooled, Public Transit, Biked, Walked and Work From Home. There's an additional "other" category, but it's mostly insignificant and doesn't really affect the data too much, so I didn't bother with it. Top 15 Best and Worst Cities for Drove Alone as a Share of Total Commuters 2010 Best 1. Bowling Green: 67.25% 2. Cleveland: 69.53% 3. Cincinnati: 71.09% 4. Dayton: 73.32% 5. Cleveland Heights: 74.43% 6. Kent: 75.27% 7. Wooster: 75.45% 8. Shaker Heights: 76.78% 9. Lakewod: 76.95% 10. Springfield: 77.52% 11. Canton: 78.32% 12. Youngstown: 78.48% 13. Euclid: 78.9% 14. Sandusky: 80.04% 15. Columbus: 80.76% Best 2022 1. Cleveland: 66.76% 2. Cincinnati: 67.35% 3. Kent: 67.6% 4. Cleveland Heights: 68.23% 5. Westerville: 70.06% 6. Dayton: 70.35% 7. Shaker Heights: 71.09% 8. Dublin: 71.58% 9. Lakewood: 71.92% 10. Columbus: 71.94% 11. Upper Arlington: 72.43% 12. Youngstown: 72.71% 13. Wooster: 72.77% 14. Mason: 73.26% 15. Euclid: 73.39% 2010 Worst 1. Avon Lake: 89.85% 2. Stow: 89.59% 3. Cuyahoga Falls: 89.56% 4. Beavercreek: 89.2% 5. Green: 89.05% 6. North Ridgeville: 88.97% 7. Perrysburg: 88.2% 8. Hilliard: 87.9% 9. Brunswick: 87.84% 10. Mentor: 87.81% 11. Huber Heights: 87.43% 12. North Olmsted: 87.18% 13. Barberton: 87.0% 14. Parma: 86.63% 15. Mason: 86.51% 2022 Worst 1. Xenia: 87.68% 2. Brunswick: 83.99% 3. Middletown: 83.77% 4. Garfield Heights: 83.59% 5. Barberton: 83.51% 6. Fairfield: 82.75% 7. Green/Elyria: 82.61% 8. Mentor: 82.37% 9. North Royalton: 82.08% 10. Sandusky: 81.89% 11. Huber Heights: 81.67% 12. Kettering: 81.6% 13. Fairborn/Medina: 81.16% 14. Findlay: 80.8% 15. Mansfield: 80.74% Top 5 Best % Point Changes 2010-2022 1. Dublin: -14.91 2. Westerville: -14.3 3. Mason: -13.25 4. Avon Lake: -12.14 5. Upper Arlington: -11.39 Top 5 Worst % Point Changes 2010-2022 1. Bowling Green: +7.76 2. Xenia: +2.28 3. Sandusky: +1.85 4. Canton: +0.9 5. Garfield Heights: +0.39 Avg Drove Alone Change of all 62 Cities: -5.58 Edited January 27, 20241 yr by jonoh81
January 27, 20241 yr For the rest, I will just do top 5. Carpooled 2010 Best 1. Lorain: 13.34% 2. Springfield: 12.85% 3. Marysville: 12.2% 4. Canton: 11.92% 5. Hamilton: 11.44% 2022 Best 1. Springfield: 13.38% 2. Marion: 12.81% 3. Lorain: 12.57% 4. Hamilton: 12.24% 5. Mansfield: 11.86% 2010 Worst 1. Dublin: 4.19% 2. Stow: 4.46% 3. Avon Lake: 4.79% 4. Cuyahoga Falls: 5.01% 5. Upper Arlington: 5.04% 2022 Worst 1. Green: 2.84% 2. Upper Arlington: 3.78% 3. Westerville: 3.84% 4. Avon Lake: 4.05% 5. Hilliard: 4.08% Top 5 Best % Point Changes 2010-2022 1. Cuyahoga Falls: +2.81 2. Akron: +2.8 3. Lima: +2.39 4. Marion: +1.92 5. Youngstown: +1.83 Top 5 Worst % Point Changes 1. Marysville: -7.74 2. Canton: -4.34 3. Bowling Green: -3.74 4. Xenia: -3.46 5. Massillon: -3.12 Avg Carpooled Change of all 62 Cities: -0.72 Public Transit 2010 Best 1. Cleveland: 12.0% 2. Cincinnati: 9.67% 3. Euclid: 8.6% 4. Lakewood: 7.83% 5. Shaker Heights: 7.73% 2022 Best 1. Cleveland: 7.55% 2. Cincinnati: 5.94% 3. Euclid: 5.53% 4. Dayton: 5.04% 5. Shaker Heights: 4.73% 2010 Worst 1. Perrysburg: 0.0% 2. Findlay: 0.1% 3. Lancaster: 0.11% 4. Marion: 0.12% 5. Marysville: 0.15% 2022 Worst 1. Wooster: 0.0% 2. Perrysburg: 0.06% 3. Marysville: 0.1% 4. Fairfield: 0.11% 5. Medina: 0.13% Top 5 Best % Point Changes 2010-2022 1. Warren: +1.08 2. Lima: +0.91 3. Youngstown: +0.75 4. Marion: +0.74 5. Fairborn: +0.57 Top 5 Worst % Point Changes 1. Lakewood: -5.27 2. Cleveland: -4.45 3. Cincinnati: -3.73 4. Cleveland Heights: -3.7 5. Euclid: -3.07 Avg Public Transit Change of all 62 Cities: -0.66 Edited January 27, 20241 yr by jonoh81
January 27, 20241 yr Biked 2010 Best 1. Bowling Green: 1.77% 2. Findlay: 1.05% 3. Sandusky: 0.99% 4. Cleveland Heights: 0.96% 5. Avon Lake: 0.75% 2022 Best 1. Cleveland Heights: 1.64% 2. Troy: 1.19% 3. Wooster: 0.77% 4. Bowling Green: 0.76% 5. Xenia: 0.75% 2010 Worst 1. Springfield/Green/Barberton/North Ridgeville/Huber Heights: 0.0% 2. Reynoldsburg: 0.01% 3. Parma/Youngstown: 0.03% 4. Stow: 0.05% 5. Massillon: 0.06% 2022 Worst 1. North Royalton/Marion/Garfield Heights/Lorain/Brunswick/Hilliard/Gahanna/Mansfield/Cuyahoga Falls/Dublin/Parma/Barberton/Green: 0.0% 2. North Ridgeville: 0.01% 3. Huber Heights: 0.03% 4. Springfield: 0.04% 5. Reynoldsburg/Westlake/North Olmsted: 0.05% Top 5 Best % Point Changes 2010-2022 1. Troy: +0.95 2. Cleveland Heights: +0.68 3. Xenia: +0.52 4. Wooster: +0.43 5. Lancaster: +0.35 Top 5 Worst % Point Changes 1. Bowling Green: -1.01 2. Sandusky: -0.89 3. Avon Lake: -0.68 4. Findlay: -0.58 5. Newark: -0.56 Avg Biked Change of all 62 Cities: -0.03 Walked 2010 Best 1. Bowling Green: 17.24% 2. Kent: 10.97% 3. Wooster: 7.41% 4. Dayton: 6.79% 5. Cincinnati: 5.29% 2022 Best 1. Bowling Green: 9.155 2. Kent: 8.22% 3. Wooster: 7.24% 4. Dayton: 6.05% 5. Cincinnati: 5.31% 2010 Worst 1. North Ridgeville/Huber Heights: 0.29% 2. Green: 0.36% 3. Mason: 0.43% 4. Dublin: 0.52% 5. Perrysburg: 0.6% 2022 Worst 1. Hilliard: 0.12% 2. Brunswick: 0.22% 3. Mason: 0.49% 4. Perrysburg: 0.5% 5. Dublin: 0.59% Top 5 Best % Point Changes 2010-2022 1. North Ridgeville: +1.51 2. Newark: +1.01 3. Warren: +0.9 4. Delaware: +0.89 5. Green: +0.87 Top 5 Worst % Point Changes 1. Bowling Green: -8.09 2. Fairborn: -3.46 3. Kent: -2.75 4. Barberton: -2.02 5. Canton: -1.82 Avg Walked Change of all 62 Cities: -0.47 Worked From Home 2010 Best 1. Upper Arlington: 7.85% 2. Dublin: 7.41% 3. Gahanna: 5.95% 4. Shaker Heights: 5.79% 5. Westerville: 5.75% 2022 Best 1. Dublin: 23.42% 2. Westerville: 21.92% 3. Upper Arlington: 21.47% 4. Marysville: 19.45% 5. Mason: 19.38% 2010 Worst 1. Xenia: 1.08% 2. Massillon: 1.12% 3. Barberton: 1.22% 4. Lima: 1.34% 5. Fairborn: 1.39% 2022 Worst 1. Sandusky: 1.54% 2. Lima: 3.38% 3. Marion: 3.66% 4. Elyria: 3.67% 5. Xenia: 3.98% Top 5 Best % Point Changes 2010-2022 1. Marysville: +17.02 2. Westerville: +16.17 3. Dublin: +16.01 4. Mason: +14.66 5. Westlake: +13.88 Top 5 Worst % Point Changes 1. Sandusky: -1.28 2. Marion: +0.96 3. Elyria: +1.57 4. Warren: +1.75 5. Lima: +2.04 Avg WFH Change of all 62 Cities: +7.16 Covid clearly affected commuting methods, with the most significant reductions in public transit usage. Still, because of a large increase in WFH, the overall % of commuters driving alone also dropped significantly. Edited January 27, 20241 yr by jonoh81
January 27, 20241 yr Finally, I ranked all of Ohio's 62 cities with populations of 25K+ or more for each commuting method, and took the average rank in each of the 6 categories to create a list of what were the most car-centric cities in both 2010 and 2022. This will be top 10 best and worst. Top 10 Least Car-Centric Commuting Cities in 2010 and Average Rank Position of the 6 Categories 1. Cleveland Heights: 9.83 2. Cincinnati: 10 3. Cleveland: 11.33 4. Wooster: 11.83 5. Dayton/Kent: 14.17 6. Canton: 15.33 7. Bowling Green: 16.33 8. Columbus: 16.67 9. Lakewood: 16.83 10. Shaker Heights: 19.17 Top 10 Least Car-Centric Commuting Cities in 2022 1. Cleveland Heights: 10.17 2. Cleveland: 10.67 3. Cincinnati: 11.67 4. Dayton: 13.5 5. Kent: 15.17 6. Columbus/Lakewood: 15.5 7. Youngstown: 16.83 8. Euclid: 19.0 9. Akron/Shaker Heights: 20.67 10. Toledo: 22.67 Not a lot of surprises here. Top 10 Most Car-Centric Commuting Cities in 2010 1. North Ridgeville: 44.17 2. Perrysburg: 42.67 3. Avon Lake: 42.83 4. Beavercreek: 42.33 5. Stow: 42.17 6. Huber Heights: 42.0 7. Cuyahoga Falls: 41.5 8. Hilliard: 40.83 9. Barberton: 40.33 10. Dublin: 39.5 Top 10 Most Car Centric Commuting Cities in 2022 1. Brunswick: 45.83 2. Fairfield/Perrysburg: 40.83 3. Xenia: 40.67 4. Green/Hilliard: 40.17 5. Middletown/North Royalton: 39.5 6. Mentor: 38.67 7. Beavercreek: 38.5 8. Stow: 38.17 9. Barberton/Medina: 37.83 10. Elyria: 36.67
January 27, 20241 yr So Ohio overall has gotten worse at everything since 2010 except Drove Alone and WFH. And WFH is solely responsible for drops in Drove Alone since all other ways of commuting such as walking and biking have also dropped. Is this a correct interpretation or spurious? And why has Bowling Green lost its mojo so badly? Large apartment complexes too far from campus for walking and biking vacuuming the students out of town? Renting SFH out of town getting big?
January 27, 20241 yr 43 minutes ago, GCrites said: So Ohio overall has gotten worse at everything since 2010 except Drove Alone and WFH. And WFH is solely responsible for drops in Drove Alone since all other ways of commuting such as walking and biking have also dropped. Is this a correct interpretation or spurious? And why has Bowling Green lost its mojo so badly? Large apartment complexes too far from campus for walking and biking vacuuming the students out of town? Renting SFH out of town getting big? I am guessing that Covid is responsible for some of the drops, considering that as more people have gone to WFH, all other methods of travel have decreased because there are just fewer people commuting overall. I wonder if we looked at 2021-2022, if we'd see any kind of increase. As for Bowling Green, it definitely seemed to fair worse than just about any other city. These numbers are based on estimates, so there is a fudge factor, but that can't compensate for that entirely.
January 27, 20241 yr This was great stuff, thanks!!! "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
January 28, 20241 yr 11 hours ago, jonoh81 said: I am guessing that Covid is responsible for some of the drops, considering that as more people have gone to WFH, all other methods of travel have decreased because there are just fewer people commuting overall. I wonder if we looked at 2021-2022, if we'd see any kind of increase. As for Bowling Green, it definitely seemed to fair worse than just about any other city. These numbers are based on estimates, so there is a fudge factor, but that can't compensate for that entirely. I lived in BG from 2007-2017; and I think that yes, the number of students living in more distant housing contributed to the lower numbers there; the faculty also unionized and substantially increased their salaries, so maybe more are driving now compared to 2010; elementary schools were also considerably consolidated - perhaps that has led to more driving overall? The university had a free bicycle program for several years, but that ended before 2020; many students also skate or ride small scooters around campus instead of bicycles these days. BG is still a great place to get around without a car.
February 9, 20241 yr Columbus, Ohio, and Austin, Texas, see biggest population gain: Report "Columbus, Ohio, and Austin, Texas, saw the largest population growth among major U.S. metropolitan areas during the last half of 2023, a new report found." "Both cities had a year-over-year population increase of a little over 1 percent between 2022 and 2023, according to the report from the Bank of America Institute."
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