The people want police.  It is obvious to the average citizen that we need the police jobs.

Fine. How do you propose paying for them?

 

Across the board paycuts. No city contract should ever include guaranteed money. Public employee salaries should always be linked to the amount tax revenue available. Reason #4932 why public employee unions are a very bad idea.

cut something else, there are other budget areas that can be cut.

 

Shut down the Cincinnati Recreation Commission. Keep only the guys that cut the grass.

You know everything there is to know about designing and running a city...

Thanks, but I think you're giving me a bit more credit than I deserve on that one, but I'll take it.

 

 

...but you know nothing about what is important to its residents.

Oh wait...there's the zinger I was waiting for.

So it sounds like we need to cut everything and anything BUT police or fire.  Is there any sort of report or documentation that says what is an appropriate number of police or fire personnel is...because while police/fire are a primary operation of government, they also take up a huge portion of the operating budget.  Virtually every other city department gets cut, cut and cut some more before police/fire even get hit.

 

I know residents want safe communities, but what is the threshold?  Do we need a police force of 10,000 to do that...5,000...11...400...what?  At some point I think you have to quantify what it is your getting.

Okay fine.  Obviously the City uses these other services, but it's just as silly and political to say, 'Well, our department took the hit last time', or 'Each department should take equal cuts'.  Those are equally rhetorical devices that obscure the issue of deciding what is most important in a time of scarce resources.  The whole point of the "no cuts to police and fire' crowd is that they value those things more.  They are saying what their priorities are.  The conceit that they are 'playing politics' assumes that they are taking a popular position for the sake of popularity.  But what if they are taking a popular position for the sake of representing a majority viewpoint?

 

Also, things have gotten to a disjointed state.  The City and the County have duplicative departments, largely because the City started theirs decades if not centuries before the County did.  The City has had to pay to subsidize the movement of the tax base outside of itself, and now we are paying a good portion of the price.  There's a real concern about combining departments and losing focus on urban problems, but what else can you do if you can't pay for these things on your own?  How effective can the City be at persuading the County to take it's problems as its own?  County politicians rely on out-of-city voters to get elected, and they represent that viewpoint.  Those guys won't even pay for bus service.  What choices does the City have?

 

The fact is that no one outside of many of these City Departments (particularly police) have any idea what these departments are spending their money on.  These department heads do not want to share this information.  We are in this mess largely because the way City government currently exists doesn't work efficiently.  Bureaucrats know they can wait out politicians.  Top administration management know they can play the unions and the lower level workers those unions represent off each other.  These are the real problems, and they frankly don't have anything to do with the fact that people value public safety and cops on the street.  If Streicher is being serious about being able to cut 138 officers and not reduce street strength, then how come he hasn't been pushing those officers out on the street previous to this crisis?  That's where all the 'no police and fire' folks want them to be anyway.  Remember, this is the guy that 'returned' $2 million that Council wanted to spend on foot patrols, but he won't cut the mounted unit.

 

After 2001, the Cincinnati Museum Center lost $1 million in base revenue (that revenue hasn't come back, though they've made up some of that loss through increased attendance via special exhibits). People changed their habits due to an increase in crime, or perceived increased.  This is a real issue.  As much as I hate to admit it, the City needs people from outside of itself to come to its venues for revenue, at least while we are trying to grow the City back up.

 

I have been hearing that the true deficit was only like 400k. Somebody is lying or everyone is lying about something. Where did the funds go from the sale of the Blue Ash airport? Did i hear right that the city just built a new 78 million dollar school for the creative and performing arts???????

Plus there is money they are "just holding on to".  Use it!  If you are out of money, you can't spend 78 million for performing arts schools so we can train another generation of spoiled celebrities!

cut something else, there are other budget areas that can be cut.

 

Let's see the specifics.  "Something else" is a cop-out.

Yes, the specifics have to come from those making the decision.  I don't have to come up with them.  Its not a cop out by me!  If they make the wrong decisions, they won't get reelected.

Across the board paycuts. No city contract should ever include guaranteed money. Public employee salaries should always be linked to the amount tax revenue available. Reason #4932 why public employee unions are a very bad idea.

 

Pay cuts are extremely difficult to administer, even in the private sector.  I don't know Ohio's laws for sure, but would not be surprised if it were illegal as generally public sector workers enjoy very strong legal protections against everything but layoffs.  I have seen any number of places do furloughs.  But can you close a $20 million gap with that?

 

Also, as a general rule, I would not be in favor of using one time cash injections like the proceeds from an airport sale to plug operating budget holes.  Those should be saved, used to pay down debt, or invested in capital projects (though of course with a close eye towards the operating tail generated).  I believe the city has that money earmarked for the streetcar, which is an appropriate type of investment.

 

The problem with papering over budget holes is that you end up leaving structural deficits in place and are able to put off hard decisions until later.  Possibly if there is a truly unique cyclical problem, you could treat it as a reserve, but you'd have to be awfully sure.  Michigan has been relying on one time gimmicks to balance its budget, and the bill is finally coming due.

 

 

Let's see the specifics. "Something else" is a cop-out.

 

It would be great.  A major problem with this whole thing is that I doubt anyone here, and possibly on Council has even seen a single line-item departmental budget, and certainly not a line-item police department budget.  Council relies on the manager too much, who relies on his department heads too much.  This system that was designed in the 20's to take decisions out of the hands of politicians has led to one where there is little authority.  The department heads are completely irresponsible because they aren't subject to any actionable veto.

 

The problem with papering over budget holes is that you end up leaving structural deficits in place and are able to put off hard decisions until later. Possibly if there is a truly unique cyclical problem, you could treat it as a reserve, but you'd have to be awfully sure. Michigan has been relying on one time gimmicks to balance its budget, and the bill is finally coming due.

 

Exactly right.  They can't plug operating budget deficits with capital budget funds, and we wouldn't want them to anyway, because it would be unsustainable.

 

I'm almost positive that the city manager can't force across the board pay cuts without union approval.  That's why there are threats of layoffs, so the union members feel guilty about not making concessions that could have saved a fellow's job.  But the unions don't want to make concessions for two reasons- 1) they want to ensure that if they make concessions today it will mean that their jobs are secure throughout the budget crisis; and 2) they don't trust their superiors in the administration who aren't subject to layoffs.  Pretty reasonable concerns in my opinion.

 

It seems to me that the most fair way to handle city worker layoffs (though don't know if this is legal) to balance the budget would be to fire the top people first for irresponsibility which led to their departments being over budget, and then having the lower ranks handle that responsibility at the lower pay grade.

 

I don't believe the City of Cincinnati is as in a bad place as Michigan.  I believe it is temporary, and therefore I believe this crisis can be muddled through.  But it can't be muddled through properly if we don't keep the things that keep people coming into the City to visit, to live and to work.  That's why fixing the Museum Center is so important (a County-wide issue that the City needs to support as One).  That's why the streetcar is so important.  That's why police and fire are so important.  We've come a long way since 2001 and we can't fall back to those days.  We aren't yet at a place of stability- we still have to fight for every resident and company we can get.

I have been hearing that the true deficit was only like 400k. Somebody is lying or everyone is lying about something. Where did the funds go from the sale of the Blue Ash airport? Did i hear right that the city just built a new 78 million dollar school for the creative and performing arts???????

 

CPS has an independent budget.

 

The Blue Ash Airport Funds are Capital Restricted (i.e. cannot be used to pay salaries)

I still think the stickiness of wages in the modern economy is deeply problematic, but it doesn't surprise me that we have made the bureaucracy too isolated from the political world - though cities with more politically available bureaucracies do seem to have more corruption. There seems to be a lot of unfortunate tensions in the system at the moment with Council starting to act like its 90s cousins, Mallory's not quite strong mayor, and the city manager's traditional control of the power.

I think there is goodness to have some stickiness in wages.  When companies can make numbers just by ratcheting up or down pay (which frequently happens in bonus oriented firms), what we really have is a cookie jar reserve system.  Sticky wages do help create management discipline I think.  OTOH, I do think the civil service model in this country needs major reform.

 

 

The police issue re budget cuts came up in Dayton, too, and was politicized.  The reality is that personell costs are  a big part of municiple budgets, especially public safety.  These are the where you can achieve big savings if you want to cut. 

 

 

^The reality is that personnel are a huge part of most of the budgets of large corporations.  That's not much different from most businesses.

It seems to me that the most fair way to handle city worker layoffs (though don't know if this is legal) to balance the budget would be to fire the top people first for irresponsibility which led to their departments being over budget, and then having the lower ranks handle that responsibility at the lower pay grade.

 

The issue isn't that the departments are over budget, and no one has said that.  They are right on, but the issue is that the revenue for the budget hasn't been coming in as planned. So, even if the department heads are right on with their budgets (and i suspect they are) it doesn't matter.

 

I was shocked when i read the FOP president saying that "it's not our job to balance the budget." I'm pretty sure that the people who's job it is to balance the budget did so...and the police were asked to give up some money and they did so...just so happens that when the FOP was asked to help out they said no. So, at that point there wasn't much recourse for the administration.  No one asked the FOP President to balance the budget.  if i were a cop who just got laid off i'd be pretty pissed at my fellow FOP members for voting down any concessions.

^Point conceded.  And point about laid off cops versus not laid off is also conceded.  But it doesn't seem there's much to like in a police dept. budget that maintains the mounted patrol but doesn't care much about walking patrols or new recruits.

^Point conceded. And point about laid off cops versus not laid off is also conceded. But it doesn't seem there's much to like in a police dept. budget that maintains the mounted patrol but doesn't care much about walking patrols or new recruits.

absolutely, i would not be all that supportive of my department if they felt that the horses were more important than regular cops.

 

i mean, mounted police are good for crowd control, but for other stuff? they're just more expensive than a Segway and just as useful.

^ I won't report you to the mods, but I'm afraid I will have to call in PETA!!! 

>It is obvious to the average citizen that we need the police jobs.

 

All of them? A simpleton thinks if we've got 1,150 police officers now that the violent crime would be cut in half if we had 2,300. Many people believe we have too many police officers as-is, but it's the death of any political career to come out and say so. Same thing with school cuts -- people think you're trying to harm the children.   

 

The police have a more important roll than simply responding to calls, that's why things like the mounted patrol are important. The horses are a great way to build trust between citizens and police during the day downtown and at events.

 

    What if your school system is built for 10,000 students. You have the proper number of classrooms and teachers, and then one year you find that enrollment has dropped to 9,600? You need to lay off about 20 teachers and lose 20 classrooms.

 

    Of course, if you have the money, it's easier to pay the teachers to do nothing, or put them in useless jobs. When the system blows up is when you don't have the extra money to pay them and you have to lay them off. Private businesses lay off people all the time when business gets slow, but private businesses are not democracies.

 

    The City of Cincinnati is in a bind because they are stuck with long term contracts. It's not easy to lay off someone just because things are slowing.

 

   

The police situation is not one of a force designed for a bigger population but rather a dramatic build up in the years following the riots.

The horses are a great way to build trust between citizens and police during the day downtown and at events.

i disagree. horses do not build a trust, in fact they are meant to intimidate; which is why they are so good at crowd control.  They raise the officer up and put an extremely powerful animal below them that can crush a person.  If you want to build trust between citizens and police then walking patrols and segways are better tools.

^ I'm not so sure about the segways, they just seem kinda goofy to me.  I understand that they are likely quicker than most people could run, but I think there will be too much of an association with the "Paul Blart: Mall Cop" movie.

 

 

^ I'm not so sure about the segways, they just seem kinda goofy to me. I understand that they are likely quicker than most people could run, but I think there will be too much of an association with the "Paul Blart: Mall Cop" movie.

 

 

i agree that they're goofy...but they provide more mobility without creating the distance and barriers between cops and citizens that patrol cars and horses do.

 

another alternative is bike cops.  All of these have similar problems, you can't chase a subject all that well with any of these...and you can't really leave any of these alone to continue pursuit.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090827/NEWS0108/908270355/New+plan+to+save+police+jobs

 

Council proposal: Defer payment to schools

 

A group of councilmembers says the city can prevent 138 Cincinnati police layoffs this year by deferring a scheduled $2.5 million payment to Cincinnati Public Schools.

 

"I cannot envision why this would not have broad support," said Councilman Chris Bortz, one of four councilmembers pushing the idea. "These jobs are critical. This buys us the time to delve into the budget, to get more information for 2010."

 

... (continued at http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090827/NEWS0108/908270355/New+plan+to+save+police+jobs)

"I cannot envision why this would not have broad support," said Councilman Chris Bortz.

 

Um...because it's taking $2.5M away from schools?  :?

It's not taking $2.5 million away from schools, but instead deferring the payment to future years.  If you read the article, a school board member tentatively supports the measure so long as nurses and resource officers are not compromised.

i can see why people would not support this plan. it's pandering and telling the police that no matter what the city will cave and give you what you want. You police are untouchable, we're so afraid of you that we'll give you raises and all the time in the world and not ask about how much overtime you bill.

 

Seems like the manager asked everyone to do their part and now the council is cutting him off at the knees.  If you don't agree with him, fire him.

It's not taking $2.5 million away from schools, but instead deferring the payment to future years. If you read the article, a school board member tentatively supports the measure so long as nurses and resource officers are not compromised.

 

How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools in the interim?

It's not taking $2.5 million away from schools, but instead deferring the payment to future years. If you read the article, a school board member tentatively supports the measure so long as nurses and resource officers are not compromised.

 

How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools in the interim?

 

You just added a qualifier, "in the interim," completely changing your original statement. 

 

i can see why people would not support this plan. it's pandering and telling the police that no matter what the city will cave and give you what you want. You police are untouchable, we're so afraid of you that we'll give you raises and all the time in the world and not ask about how much overtime you bill.

 

Seems like the manager asked everyone to do their part and now the council is cutting him off at the knees. If you don't agree with him, fire him.

 

I don't disagree that the FOP needs to be pushed at some point to make concessions, but I think this might be a suitable stopgap given the current state of affairs.

I don't disagree that the FOP needs to be pushed at some point to make concessions, but I think this might be a suitable stopgap given the current state of affairs.

 

what's the current state of affairs? you mean with the budget? i don't see how it's going to get better for the next year or so. What message does this send to the FOP about where cuts are going to be made in the future? I'd get ready for no more city parks, rec centers or anything else, but lots of cops.

It's not taking $2.5 million away from schools, but instead deferring the payment to future years.  If you read the article, a school board member tentatively supports the measure so long as nurses and resource officers are not compromised.

 

How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools in the interim?

 

You just added a qualifier, "in the interim," completely changing your original statement. 

 

Okay.  How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools?

It's not taking $2.5 million away from schools, but instead deferring the payment to future years. If you read the article, a school board member tentatively supports the measure so long as nurses and resource officers are not compromised.

 

How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools in the interim?

 

You just added a qualifier, "in the interim," completely changing your original statement.

 

Okay. How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools?

 

They'll receive the money, just at a later date.  It takes the money away in the interim, but not indefinitely was the point, I think.

 

This is an example of prioritizing.  Some council members, and a lot of citizens, feel that the police force should remain at its current size despite the budget problem.  Protection of citizens is being prioritized over other things, rather than a clear cut across the board with no exceptions or priorities. 

It's not taking $2.5 million away from schools, but instead deferring the payment to future years. If you read the article, a school board member tentatively supports the measure so long as nurses and resource officers are not compromised.

 

How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools in the interim?

 

You just added a qualifier, "in the interim," completely changing your original statement.

 

Okay. How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools?

 

They'll receive the money, just at a later date. It takes the money away in the interim, but not indefinitely was the point, I think.

 

This is an example of prioritizing. Some council members, and a lot of citizens, feel that the police force should remain at its current size despite the budget problem. Protection of citizens is being prioritized over other things, rather than a clear cut across the board with no exceptions or priorities.  

 

Yeah, I'm not seeing how taking ANY money away, even if it's temporary, is cool for the schools.  What are they supposed to do in the interim?

 

I agree with you about prioritizing, though.  Why is every Hyde Park cop I see tooling around on a Segway?  Who authorized those purchases to be made?  Stuff like that burns me up.  The city cries broke and it doesn't take much digging around to see why.

The city will also have to pay interest on it. So, it's adding debt to the budget in 2 or 3 years.

It's not taking $2.5 million away from schools, but instead deferring the payment to future years. If you read the article, a school board member tentatively supports the measure so long as nurses and resource officers are not compromised.

 

How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools in the interim?

 

You just added a qualifier, "in the interim," completely changing your original statement.

 

Okay. How is deferring payment up to 5 years NOT taking money away from schools?

 

They'll receive the money, just at a later date. It takes the money away in the interim, but not indefinitely was the point, I think.

 

This is an example of prioritizing. Some council members, and a lot of citizens, feel that the police force should remain at its current size despite the budget problem. Protection of citizens is being prioritized over other things, rather than a clear cut across the board with no exceptions or priorities.  

 

That was the point, thank you.

 

I think the police provide a valuable service and do so at a fair price.  The most important question is whether or not the proposed termination and loss of these officers will have a noticeably detrimental effect on the city.  If there has been a thorough, fair analysis on police staffing levels relative to crime rates and city population in this debate, I'd like to see it.

I live in Hyde Park and have never seen a Segway in the neighborhood or surrounding areas.  The only place I have seen them are Downtown.

 

All purchases are not made with money that could be used for operations.  Some of these things are made with grants for specific purposes.  One thing a lot of people don't understand is that just because money is spent in one area or on one thing doesn't mean that same money could have been diverted to another area.

I live in Hyde Park and have never seen a Segway in the neighborhood or surrounding areas. The only place I have seen them are Downtown.

 

All purchases are not made with money that could be used for operations. Some of these things are made with grants for specific purposes. One thing a lot of people don't understand is that just because money is spent in one area or on one thing doesn't mean that same money could have been diverted to another area.

 

I think the first segways were used in District 3

i saw a cop on a segway coming out of my part of PRidge a few months back. I was a little surprised.

I was taken aback the first time I saw one (which was in Hyde Park).  I actually shouted, "Hey, what's wrong with walking?"  He yelled back, "This is more efficient."  "For me, the taxpayer?"  He didn't respond.

Think about it, we spend about 100 million a year for about 1,100 cops, or 90k per cop per year (lots of other things go into that 100 million aside from salary, I am sure but for the sake of argument).  If they work 40 hour weeks 50 weeks a year, that is 2000 hours. or about $45 an hour.  Segways cost $5,000 but all the cop to go 13 mph instead of 4 mph. So 1 hour of segway patroling covers as much ground as 3 hours of foot patroling. [now i realize that if distance covered was the only important metric, then driving as fast as possible on the highway is the most effective]. Anyway for $45 we can segway a cop around 13 miles of the city or $146.5 we can have him or her walk 13 miles around the city, the equipment breaks even in about 50 uses.

Think about it, we spend about 100 million a year for about 1,100 cops, or 90k per cop per year (lots of other things go into that 100 million aside from salary, I am sure but for the sake of argument). If they work 40 hour weeks 50 weeks a year, that is 2000 hours. or about $45 an hour. Segways cost $5,000 but all the cop to go 13 mph instead of 4 mph. So 1 hour of segway patroling covers as much ground as 3 hours of foot patroling. [now i realize that if distance covered was the only important metric, then driving as fast as possible on the highway is the most effective]. Anyway for $45 we can segway a cop around 13 miles of the city or $146.5 we can have him or her walk 13 miles around the city, the equipment breaks even in about 50 uses.

 

Right, because the broad daylight foot crime in Hyde Park is getting ridiculous.  :roll:

Think about it, we spend about 100 million a year for about 1,100 cops, or 90k per cop per year (lots of other things go into that 100 million aside from salary, I am sure but for the sake of argument). If they work 40 hour weeks 50 weeks a year, that is 2000 hours. or about $45 an hour. Segways cost $5,000 but all the cop to go 13 mph instead of 4 mph. So 1 hour of segway patroling covers as much ground as 3 hours of foot patroling. [now i realize that if distance covered was the only important metric, then driving as fast as possible on the highway is the most effective]. Anyway for $45 we can segway a cop around 13 miles of the city or $146.5 we can have him or her walk 13 miles around the city, the equipment breaks even in about 50 uses.

 

Right, because the broad daylight foot crime in Hyde Park is getting ridiculous. :roll:

 

Without the segway cops it would be

i saw a cop on a segway coming out of my part of PRidge a few months back. I was a little surprised.

 

I live right off Montgomery, adjacent to the business district of the Ridge, and have never seen one.  Must not be a regular thing.

 

Think about it, we spend about 100 million a year for about 1,100 cops, or 90k per cop per year (lots of other things go into that 100 million aside from salary, I am sure but for the sake of argument).  If they work 40 hour weeks 50 weeks a year, that is 2000 hours. or about $45 an hour.  Segways cost $5,000 but all the cop to go 13 mph instead of 4 mph. So 1 hour of segway patroling covers as much ground as 3 hours of foot patroling. [now i realize that if distance covered was the only important metric, then driving as fast as possible on the highway is the most effective]. Anyway for $45 we can segway a cop around 13 miles of the city or $146.5 we can have him or her walk 13 miles around the city, the equipment breaks even in about 50 uses.

 

Interesting calculation.  I would have to imagine that similar logic has been used by the police department in the initial acquisition of the Segways, at least to the extent that it's cheaper for one officer to cover an area on a Segway than to have multiple officers on foot.  Whether or not they have adjusted staffing accordingly, or placed these in areas with enough population to justify the presence, is another question altogether.

You don't know what you've got till its gone.......