July 5, 200816 yr BUT, mixing the theater ideas in with it would be great too of course;) That site has so much potential.
July 5, 200816 yr Seriously, why do they need 4 separate theatres on one site? This seems absurd to me. I'd much rather see one joint theatre and have the groups rotate between there, Aronoff, Music Hall, Taft, etc. Probably unrealistic. But they said having these 4 venues could have up to 784 performances in a year??? That's over 2 per day! Do these companies draw enough individual base to pull this off? Wouldn't you venture to say that a lot of their base overlaps? Not sure how they can support such huge separate investments. I would like to see something to this effect done on that site. Some arts-related venue could help get the thing off the ground. Although, I would rather see a movie theatre there than anything.
July 5, 200816 yr The concerns voiced by oakiehigh and The Nati Life echo my own. I love the idea of Cincinnati nurturing local theatre, but we have to make sure that we don't add more than the market will bear. I'm no expert on theatre, so maybe we can add a few more without cannibalizing what we already have, but we should proceed with caution.
July 5, 200816 yr This does sound like theater overkill, but keep in mind Playhouse in the Park in Eden Park will be history. That's two theaters eliminated. The small theaters could provide additional options for the alt-theaters in OTR. This would be a great asset for Fringe Fest. Shows come in all different sizes and having flexibility is important. Music Hall really doesn't do theater. More concerts would be in nice. Tom Waits would a been a good fit. at least for me. ;-) I was a big fan of moving Playhouse in the Park to the Banks. Build a iconic building and watch it flourish. FS will work too. Also, I think a developer would sell their soul to buy the land of the current PitP. More upscale housing up there would be a win-win for the Park Board and Mt. Adams.
July 5, 200816 yr how is playhouse of all people going to get the funding to build on real estate like that?! this is awful, they're just going to stick some second rate theatre attractions there to poorly compete with all the others downtown and fail miserably leaving more empty unused rooms in our downtown.
July 5, 200816 yr How 'bout a huge tower of affordable apartments and not condos with retail on the bottom and cool stuff. Or a huge gas station lol. Could you imagine the traffic around there. Jeeeeeeesh.
July 6, 200816 yr I thought a movie theatre was going to be an idea, either at 5th and race or above the maceys. I'm not sure i see too much of aneed for the proposaed theatres given the venues that already exist around the city.
July 6, 200816 yr I'm not a huge theater goer, so please correct me if I may be way off. One thing that concerns me about this proposal is that I am under the impression this could take events/shows away from Aronoff and Music hall. Both are true Cincy treasures that need to be preserved and I am getting the feeling that this is being done just to fill the space. I remember reading Playhouse wanted to move downtown or the Banks, which originally I was OK with. I just fear we would be abandoning Music Hall more so than Aronoff since they can still pack a house. Is this the same thing? If so, Do they actually NEED 4 theaters? If you read further back in the thread, you will get some of the background info on 1. why they want to move, and 2. what the different size theatres are for. I am no expert, but most other halls/venues were not designed for theatre. The same arguments were made when the Aronoff was built in regards to Music Hall. Additionally, I'm not hot on the idea of building 1,000 extra parking spaces unless they're dedicated for future condo residents. If this megaplex is truly a destination then take full advantage by allowing people to park elsewhere supporting more street traffic. If people are able to park in this building for shows, they'll never step outside the two block radius. I agree in theory on the parking, to encourage pedestrian activity, but when you get a chance to build a ton of parking in a CBD as dense as Cincinnati I say take it. Everyone is always bitching about a lack of parking downtown (be it real or perceived), but there are precious few large parcels left in which to add major blocks of parking within the CBD for both daytime office and nighttime residential/entertainment use. Remember FSW/Macy's only has about 120 parking spaces on a half block adjacent to FS, but the chance to add parking in the center of the CBD is now gone, and a lot of people bitched about that at the time, especially since it was/is slated for a retail/office mixed use project. No other late model office project has so little parking.
July 6, 200816 yr This does sound like theater overkill, but keep in mind Playhouse in the Park in Eden Park will be history. That's two theaters eliminated. The small theaters could provide additional options for the alt-theaters in OTR. This would be a great asset for Fringe Fest. Shows come in all different sizes and having flexibility is important. Music Hall really doesn't do theater. More concerts would be in nice. Tom Waits would a been a good fit. at least for me. ;-) I was a big fan of moving Playhouse in the Park to the Banks. Build a iconic building and watch it flourish. FS will work too. Also, I think a developer would sell their soul to buy the land of the current PitP. More upscale housing up there would be a win-win for the Park Board and Mt. Adams. Yes, I have always thought that the area directly adjacent to Playhouse in the Park would be an ideal loacation for a big condo tower. A 30-story tower on that spot would have amazing views. Those would sell fast. On 5th&Vine, I recall about 4-5 years ago that the Maisonette was talking about building a theater on 6th&Walnut (as weird as that sounds) next to the Aranoff. Anyone else remember this? Apparently there is a demand/niche for small theater space. Maybe this new proposed theater is going after this same niche.
July 6, 200816 yr ^ found it. http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2002/12/20/biz_maisonette.html (thats right. I just replied to my own post)
July 6, 200816 yr I remember that, the plan seemed interesting, but it was just masking the Maisonette/Comisar financial problems in looking for free money from the City. Remember that his proposed Kenwood project failed to materialize as well.
July 22, 200816 yr New plans mulled for Fifth and Race http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080722/BIZ01/307220093 Ultimately, the city will seek proposals from national developers interested in building a mixed-use project that would probably be anchored by housing priced affordably for young professionals. Interesting...
July 23, 200816 yr Wow ... those comments are ridiculous! People are idiots. Period. ... Anyway, when they come out with floorplans, I'm buying! Hopefully, they'll keep it around 30-35 stories.
July 23, 200816 yr Haha, wow. Those reader comments are pretty intense. Good to see some familiar names...and not so familiar names on there fighting back. Hopefully the city can dig up a developer with their act together. This project can be incredibly successfull if they make it affordable to those that arent super rich.
July 23, 200816 yr ^ That's the key. Downtown needs some housing for people who are looking to buy in the $150k-$250k range.
July 23, 200816 yr What about making it apartments? Downtown is definately lacking in the apartment stock. I know that we are going to get a lot with the first phase of the Banks, but something geared towards the YP's needs to be for rent most dont have 40k in assets to secure a 200k loan. As far as the Playhouse moving here I'm not a fan. I would like to see something that will create a lot of sidewalk activity. (Movie Theater, Shopping, Restaurants) Something like D.C. has around the Verison Center. Just a disclaimer I am for the Playhouse moving Downtown, but will it really create enough energy?
July 23, 200816 yr Class C Office building conversions (like the Enquirer Building) are perfect candidates for apartments. Let those happen and let the new construction remain as condos as that is what developers are going to want to do with those projects.
July 23, 200816 yr ^ Totally agree. A theatre and stuff would be cool, but not at 5th and Race. There needs to be tenants added that would aid in the hustle and bustle. If I'm not mistaken, there are a few surface lots on Central leading towards the new SCPA. It would be cool to bring that whole area into an arts place or something. Although it's a far stretch to say broadway commons should have all of this theatre and Playhouse stuff, it's still a possibility and God knows there plenty of space there.
July 23, 200816 yr OTR's cluster of theatres (Ensemble, Know, New Stage) is essentially Cincinnati's off-Broadway theatre district. Whereas the area around Fountain Square is turning into a more mainstream style theatre/entertainment district. I basically look at the CBD as being a great location for mainstream entertainment and chain type stores/restaurants. OTR, on the other hand, is the great spot for more local and eclectic type entertainment, dining and retail. This makes sense from a land value standpoint and a cultural one.
August 11, 200816 yr Combine 3CDC with Towne Properties and this project could be done pronto. Cincinnati adopts motion to bring in 3CDC on Fifth and Race http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2008/08/cincinnati-adopts-motion-to-bring-in.html
August 11, 200816 yr Combine 3CDC with Towne Properties and this project could be done pronto. Cincinnati adopts motion to bring in 3CDC on Fifth and Race http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2008/08/cincinnati-adopts-motion-to-bring-in.html I didn't see any mention of TP, where did you see that?
August 11, 200816 yr There was some discussion about them on this thread a little while back. Essentially a couple people mentioned how Towne Properties would get the job done...and do it right.
September 26, 200816 yr 3CDC tapped for Fifth & Race site Group to oversee development of prime corner The Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. has agreed to take over the redevelopment of the Fifth and Race streets site downtown, giving city officials and business leaders new hope for the prime location that has sat empty for a decade. While the agreement has yet to be announced officially, sources say the 3CDC board on Sept. 24 accepted the terms of a deal that City Manager Milton Dohoney and Economic Development Director Holly Childs presented to 3CDC CEO Steve Leeper, who has won admiration among local business leaders and politicians alike for getting things done. Cincinnati City Councilman Jeff Berding said the deal gives 3CDC a year to craft a redevelopment plan for the 2-acre site, which sits at the same intersection as Saks Fifth Avenue, Macy’s and the Cincinnati Hilton Netherland Plaza and just a block west of Fountain Square. The city currently operates a parking lot there. Read full article here: http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/09/29/story1.html
October 4, 200816 yr It only took the Enquirer just over a week to pick up on this story... 3CDC likely to take over 5th and Race City Council will take up a proposal next week to tap the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. to take over redevelopment of vacant land at Fifth and Race streets. The city has been trying to get a project built at the intersection, a block west of Fountain Square, for more than a decade. 3CDC redeveloped the square and is behind several projects in Over-the-Rhine. If a deal gets done, it would also be responsible for remaking another critical downtown parcel. "City Council has a great deal of confidence in 3CDC. They bring significant expertise and private resources to bear," City Councilman Jeff Berding said Friday. 3CDC spokeswoman Kelly Leon declined to comment, saying any announcements had to come from the city. Read full article here: http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081004/BIZ01/810040326/1076/NEWS
October 4, 200816 yr You know, to be honest, I was a little nervous about hiring hiring Milton Dohoney and him coming from L'ville ... but I am really glad we have him now playing for our team now.
October 20, 200816 yr Council could let 3CDC manage Fifth & Race site The Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. (3CDC) could get $300,000 and up to three years to find a viable development project for Fifth and Race, a city-owned surface lot one block west of Fountain Square. Cincinnati City Council’s Finance Committee is scheduled to consider a contract Monday that would put 3CDC in charge of finding a developer and managing the project on a downtown site where previous developers tried and failed to attract three different department stores in the past decade. Read full article here: http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/10/20/daily1.html
October 20, 200816 yr Sounds good. Either way I think all big projects happening downtown should be given a timeline and post that timeline somewhere for the public to see(having renderings shown etc). That way we're not all in the dark. Yea anticipation is fun, but it's nice to have an estimate once in a while. Something good better go there and I trust 3CDC not to screw it up. Fountain Square rocks now.
October 24, 200816 yr Armed with new capital, sway, 3CDC looks ahead Leeper plans to market Fifth-Race with over-Macy’s site The new man in charge of redeveloping the city’s long-stalled Fifth and Race project says he plans to market the site jointly with a development pad above the downtown Macy’s store, where a residential tower overlooking Fountain Square could be part of the mix. “We’ve got two good pieces of land to work with, for sure,” said Steve Leeper, CEO of the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. (3CDC). “We need to work with all the parties involved … to see how we can integrate those two development sites to get something that’s exciting for the city.” Leeper’s comments are the first indication of what 3CDC might do with new development authority and investment capital it gained in two dramatic developments this week. Read full article here: http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/10/27/story6.html
October 24, 200816 yr I would love to see some additional retail or entertainment on top of Macy's and maybe some residential on top of that. Something like 20 stories
October 24, 200816 yr This would be my ideal scenario... 5th & Race: First two levels are retail with major chain tenants, possibly a department store if you can swing it. Parking garage for both obvious and unfortunate reasons. Highrise residential tower(s) about 25 stories in height in the $150,00 - $300,000 price range. Fountain Place: Two separate towers, one fronting Vine, the other fronting Race with an amenity deck area in between the two. One should be residential, the other office or residential depending on demand. Price points should be slightly higher than 5th & Race. Playhouse in the Park: Emery Theatre
October 24, 200816 yr My only input into splitting Fountain Place into two towers is that the size of the floorplates would not be competitive/condusive to modern Class A standards, any office development would require a majority of the site.
October 25, 200816 yr The fountain place scenarios are pretty limited without major modification to the existing department store. From what i understand, the portion of the building designed to support additional floors is more or less confined to the corner at 5th and vine. You can see be looking at any decent aerial photograph where this beefed up structure punches through the roof with darker caps. You can also see the footprint of the elevator banks.
October 25, 200816 yr Actually, the plan that the base was built to support was for a 25-30 story tower that ran pretty much the length of Fifth St. I have an old rendering somewhere that I will try to dig up.
October 25, 200816 yr That may have been the plan but i dont believe that is what was built. The company i work for was recently involved in a study dealing with the site. I wasnt personally involved but i do recall a substantially smaller footprint to work with than what i expected. I could be wrong. Regardless...two towers would be difficult on top of a building that was intended to support one... elevators, etc.
October 26, 200816 yr What was the plan with parking? I've never been in the Lazarus garage but I understand it's quite small. Can they build parking above the existing store or would its parking have to be on the Nordstrom's block? I've long thought that residences at 5th & Vine with balconies facing Vine would really activate the square.
October 26, 200816 yr The parking component was so small because no one wanted to pony up the cash, neither the City nor the development group would do it (underground parking is not economically feasible in this market, and the City did not want to subsididze it, a big mistake in my opinion, you only get so many chances to add parking to the center of downtown, like it or not). Here is the rendering of the version of Fountain Place for which the base was constructed, sorry for the image it was scanned from an old paper.
October 26, 200816 yr Interesting....i have never seen that design before. That image is far more relevant that any of the fountain square west, etc images as it was designed to go with what we actually see there today.
October 26, 200816 yr In case there's any confusion, that link to the old FS West images shows the Helmut Jahn renderings that predated what became the Lazarus department store. Since some people reading this weren't even alive at the time, that plan was totally scuttled and the demolished department store sat as a parking lot for a few years before Lazarus was built. >(underground parking is not economically feasible in this market, and the City did not want to subsididze it, a big mistake in my opinion, you only get so many chances to add parking to the center of downtown, like it or not). I agree. An extra 100-200 spots would have gone a long way toward making future construction of a tower here possible. As is the Nordstrom lot's 200 surface spots fill every day meaning that a major new tower at 5th & Race + above Lazarus would require an enormous amount of parking, at least 1,000 spots. I remember they planned parking both beneath and above Nordstrom, but I can't remember how many spots total.
October 26, 200816 yr The ones linked from BDRUF were all proposals in the 1980s (except for the Conservatory). I liked several of them, but alas, now we have a three story base with something hopefully coming on top soon.
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