Randy, or anyone: does anyone know the status of the fifth and race project?

 

This is the most recent information I have on this topic.  This information is from a 3CDC presentation given on October 21, 2008.

 

• City Council passed two separate motions calling on the City to enter into a contract with 3CDC to manage the development process for the 5th and Race site, including design consideration of Fountain Place West over Macy's
  
• Agreement would give 3CDC one year to produce a redevelopment plan
  
• 3CDC would explore incorporating a theater complex for the Playhouse in the Park and Children's Theater

so in other words, it's in 3CDC's hands now?

^It has been ever since the City showed Eagle Realty the door for dragging their feet.  See this post and follow along from there.

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,344.msg328231.html#msg328231

Thanks for the update!

I think/thought the Playhouse offically said they are not looking to move at the moment given the current economy.  Maybe someone else can confirm.

Is there a life-expectancy for 3CDC or is going to pretty much exist indefinitely?

 

Any renderings of the high rise condos at the fabled 5th and Race???

 

No renderings- It'll officially be announced late winter early spring.  Another large underground structure will be built, and it's likely 5th street will be closed similarly to how it was closed when the fountain square lot was built.

I really hope the development includes street level retail. That whole area of 5th street around Fountain Square is doing so well, it would be extremely beneficial to help it spread westward.

Is there a life-expectancy for 3CDC or is going to pretty much exist indefinitely?

 

Any renderings of the high rise condos at the fabled 5th and Race???

 

No renderings- It'll officially be announced late winter early spring. Another large underground structure will be built, and it's likely 5th street will be closed similarly to how it was closed when the fountain square lot was built.

 

How do you know this? Shoot me a PM if you have to, I'm legit!

Any idea how high?

Is there a life-expectancy for 3CDC or is going to pretty much exist indefinitely?

 

Any renderings of the high rise condos at the fabled 5th and Race???

 

No renderings- It'll officially be announced late winter early spring.  Another large underground structure will be built, and it's likely 5th street will be closed similarly to how it was closed when the fountain square lot was built.

 

How do you know this? Shoot me a PM if you have to, I'm legit!

 

 

Haha- sorry- that's literally all I know. I have a friend who works somewhere* who let me know that.  I would guess a decent size- (this is now completely speculation) of perhaps 15 stories and like I said, primarily condos. 

 

I wonder if they'll connect it to the Skywalk... haha

 

*somewhere will remain nameless.. although I'm sure you can guess

I am all for the development, but condos in this market?

Thanks for the insider info OCtoCincy!

 

 

I am all for the development, but condos in this market?

hopefully the market will be better by the time they come online...God help us if it's not

Love to hear information about this site.  IMO this is the most important vacant lot we have in downtown.  Right across from Saks and Macys, next to the hotels and convention center, and one block from Fountain Square. 

Other than Nordstrom's, what department stores are still independent and have dt locations?

There was for a time in the late 90's a plan for a department store at 5th & Race and at 3rd & Race.  If you remember they were earlier courting a Maison Blanche store, which appears to have been bought out by Dillard's.  Losing out on that Nordstrom's was a shame, but people forget that they pulled out of a downtown Pittsburgh plan at the same time. 

Maison Blanche was to be the McAlpin's up-market competitor to roughly Bloomingdale's (though it was a stretch to consider that upscale), but it all died when McAlpin's parent company was swallowed by the folks from Arkansas (Dillard's).

I'm confused.  What's the rumor about Fifth & Race now?  I hadn't heard anything since 2009, but suddenly we have all these posts without a clear indication of what's going on.  Something good, I hope!

Nieman Marcus is still independent and has downtown stores. And unlike most department store chains, they hire good architects to custom-design each of their stores, rather than plopping down a stock big-box design.

Still think a residential tower with a big bookstore and retail under it would be perfect for this spot.

^If this were 1995 you would be absolutely right.  Big bookstores are hurting massively right now and the bleending isn't likely to stop anytime soon.  This would be a great spot for anything other than the parking lot that's there right now :)

A few high/moderate retailers would seem appropriate for the site and provide some transition from the small storefront Plum street area to the Macy's Department store area. 

Any combo of an Apple Store, Zara, B&O Concept, or coffee shop would seem fitting for the hotel area and market scale.

-While I had hoped such a stretch might find its way along Central Parkway, but this area would seem a better fit... along a streetcar line, in a mixed use high traffic, high density area, plus it would better contribute to the Race business district than a department store.

If dt Philly can support two H&M's in Center City then I think Cincy can support one.

Residential would be a nice fit there and could help with creating a critical mass downtown. 

Residential would be perfect. Unfortunately no developer wants to build a brand new tower for market rate apartments/condos. They all have to be way overpriced. This of course changes the demographics of the critical mass thats desperately needed downtown. I dont know that a 30 story tower full of empty nesters that go to bed at 9pm every night is what downtown needs.

Most YP's need something affordable to market rate.

The best we can hope for is conversion of some of the older office towers downtown.

Is there any new information about this project? I don't understand how this land, in one of the most desirable blocks downtown, has sat empty for so long.  Reading through this thread is depressing.  One story after another talking about how a new condo tower is in the works, and it will be breaking ground any day.  Now it's 2011, and we're in the same place we were in 2005.

The most recent rumor was that a development would be announced early this Spring by 3CDC to build high rise condos at the site.

 

It would involve ripping up 5th street similarly to how it was ripped up during Fountain square renovations- parking would be multi-leveled underground. 

Any news regarding the 5th and Race site?  It strikes me as hard to believe nothing has come here yet.  Prime location and just a surface parking lot right now is less than desireable.

 

 

No input, but thank you for bumping something besides the Mercer Commons and Gateway Quarter threads!

 

Last I heard the City is having 3CDC work on it.

In the most recent 3CDC OTR Work Group PDF there is a one page Central Business District slide that shows all the properties 3CDC has partnered on. The 5th/Race site is listed as "Proposed".

Yeah I saw that and was curious about it. Unfortunately they only mentioned the Maisonette & Barleycorns buildings so far. I hope there's something going on behind the scenes but realistically, it's probably in a holding pattern till the economy starts a proper recovery.

The Enquirer obviously follows this board.

 

 

High hopes for Fifth and Race

Written by Lisa Bernard-Kuhn [email protected] 6:55 PM, Aug. 5, 2011

 

At the northwest corner of Fifth and Race streets, the city’s most prime slice of downtown real estate is waiting.

 

City leaders envision a marquee skyscraper packed with high-profile office tenants and residences.

 

At street level, first-floor retailers would serve as a key link for convention center visitors to Fountain Square’s entertainment and restaurants.

 

But even after nearly $14 million in city investment, the corner is a far cry from leaders’ grandiose visions.

 

“It’s been a parking lot longer than we wanted it to be,” says Patrick Ewing, interim economic development director for the City of Cincinnati.

 

Cont

In the comments section, people think that "the city" build Queen City Square. 

I got an idea: (1) resurrect plans for the marvelous 650 ft. Helmut Jahn tower ("Fountain Square West") that was once envisioned for 5th & Vine; (2) shift west one block to 5th & Race; (3) add 300 ft. to make it the tallest building in Ohio; (4) name it the new "Sears Tower"; (5) deliver an armored-car full of $$$ to a particular suburban Chicago location; (6) then sit back and wait...

In the comments section, people think that "the city" build Queen City Square. 

 

Well... The Port Authority partnered with Western & Southern to do it, and the City issued $300 million in bonds to pay for the construction. So they are loosely correct...

I got an idea: (1) resurrect plans for the marvelous 650 ft. Helmut Jahn tower ("Fountain Square West") that was once envisioned for 5th & Vine; (2) shift west one block to 5th & Race; (3) add 300 ft. to make it the tallest building in Ohio; (4) name it the new "Sears Tower"; (5) deliver an armored-car full of $$$ to a particular suburban Chicago location; (6) then sit back and wait...

 

No more office buildings in downtown!!!!  We've already got pads for future office buildings at the banks, dozens of older buildings that need renovating and a sky high (no pun intended) vacancy rate.

 

We need more residents downtown-  I think it should be a really nice condo or apartment tower that's between 20 and 25 stories.

 

Just my personal opinion :)

Call me crazy but I actually don't see the huge appeal of the 5th and Race site. The Banks strikes me as a much more exciting and high-profile location. The "energy" I get from 5th and Race is that it's the back door entrance to a couple slow department stores.

 

Cincinnati's energy seems to be in the Gateway Quarter and The Banks.

^ Which is why there has been no rush to do 5th and Race, But with a continued influx of residents from a good tower (places like 4th and plum & mcalpin, and other downtown apartments or condos are doing very well) i think the "slow apartment stores" and other things downtown could improve dramatically.

 

At the same time, I agree that since the energy is in GQ and at the Banks right now, there is no rush to do 5th and Race

I would imagine a residential tower at 5th & Race could be marketed to an older crowd than GQ and the Banks.

 

The Banks is destined to be a bit on the noisy side, which older folks might not be into. OTR is still on the urban pioneering side, which could turn older folks off. 5th & Race might not be where the "energy" is, but for (e.g.) empty-nesters looking to downsize from their outer-neighborhood or suburban family homes, a central location in a relatively low-energy part of downtown could really hit a sweet spot. I think it's at least worth a market study.

I don't see why there would not be demand for a mixed use apartment development here. There are people out there looking for a downtown location that might be more affordable than the pricier river view apartments at the Banks. Not to mention the location, it's close to everything downtown has to offer.

The problem is that it's not an affordable piece of property. It's caught in the classic American downtown paradox of being too expensive for its own good.

The problem is that it's not an affordable piece of property. It's caught in the classic American downtown paradox of being too expensive for its own good.

 

A good point, but then what to do?  Build a really tall residential tower (35-40 floors, i.e. Charlotte or Austin) or what?

I agree that this has the potential to be a great spot for an older crowd looking to stay out of banks/GQ.  With the rental market doing so well in cincy right now maybe there will be more motivation for something of the sort.

 

As far as office space goes I dont think that is necessary at this point unless there would be a large company moving to downtown filling the new space instead of shuffling everyone around while bumping up the vacancy rate. (hopefully some companies out in surounding areas will find it more attractive to be downtown with YP's living down there ie. first financial).

 

 

What downtown Cincinnati needs is a population.  Granted, with the gentrification of OTR, we are developing an area for people of various socio-economic backgrounds to live safely, but we could always use a stable, permanent population in the city core.

 

I want to see two towers, preferably condominiums - not apartments - and I would like to see the main storefront on ground level a grocery store, like Kroger.  It is sad the closest grocery store of any magnitude to downtown is in Newport.

Cross-posted from the Banks thread. Could 5th & Race be a better site?

 

City, county spar over dunnhumby site

 

Written by

Sharon Coolidge and Lisa Bernard-Kuhn

 

DOWNTOWN — Dunnhumby USA's plans to move its headquarters has pitted the city of Cincinnati and Hamilton County against each other in a bid to lure the firm to one of two downtown sites.

 

County officials want the consumer research and insights firm at The Banks, a move officials say will help spur more development at the riverfront community.

 

But city officials have offered a site at the corner of Fifth and Race streets, a prime slice of city-owned real estate long eyed for redevelopment.

My opinion... we're 20 years away from any real development... dig it up... put in some underground parking an put in a heavy duty park... like the Washington Park redo... we have the Banks, QCS etc.... enough already... give downtown a bath and plant some trees and flowers... get rid of ALL the surface parking BS... ashphalt is not beautiful....and neither is another silly building...

No more office buildings in downtown!!!!  We've already got pads for future office buildings at the banks, dozens of older buildings that need renovating and a sky high (no pun intended) vacancy rate.

 

We need more residents downtown-  I think it should be a really nice condo or apartment tower that's between 20 and 25 stories.

 

Just my personal opinion :)

 

That's why we should be converting some of the vacant office space into apartments and condos.  Especially some of the older, more unique buildings, like the old Enquirer building.

 

And I'd much rather see 4-story infill on all of the downtown parking lots than one giant 25-story apartment/condo tower.

The Federal Reserve tower renovation is taking old B/C class office space and turning it into apartments.

 

The City's plan with this site is to have a first floor that ties into the Macy's and Saks fifth avenue markets to support their business. 3CDC has recommended to the city to build a three-story underground parking structure the entire width of the block and under fifth Street- according to 3CDC, it would be nearly the same size as the Fountain Square garage- about 400 spaces.

 

Also, due to the massive size of the block, it's possible that it would be built into two towers, one with a commercial/office focus, and the other primarily residential. 

No more office buildings in downtown!!!!  We've already got pads for future office buildings at the banks, dozens of older buildings that need renovating and a sky high (no pun intended) vacancy rate.

 

We need more residents downtown-  I think it should be a really nice condo or apartment tower that's between 20 and 25 stories.

 

Just my personal opinion :)

 

That's why we should be converting some of the vacant office space into apartments and condos.  Especially some of the older, more unique buildings, like the old Enquirer building.

 

And I'd much rather see 4-story infill on all of the downtown parking lots than one giant 25-story apartment/condo tower.

Good points. I know I just posted about building a residential tower in the Banks thread, and as Atlas said, there's something to be said about the appeal of new construction. But there is quite a bit of vacant office space which is ripe for conversion. And as you point out, it would be much faster to get rid of all those pesky surface lots with lower buildings, which can also appeal to those who prefer new construction.

Did someone say surface parking lots?  Here is the thread with my photos of every downtown surface lot:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,11398.msg148248.html#msg148248

 

 

Those photos are all from 2004-05, and in six years only one of the lots has been built on, the condo at 4th & Central.