The Federal Reserve tower renovation is taking old B/C class office space and turning it into apartments.

 

The City's plan with this site is to have a first floor that ties into the Macy's and Saks fifth avenue markets to support their business. 3CDC has recommended to the city to build a three-story underground parking structure the entire width of the block and under fifth Street- according to 3CDC, it would be nearly the same size as the Fountain Square garage- about 400 spaces.

 

Also, due to the massive size of the block, it's possible that it would be built into two towers, one with a commercial/office focus, and the other primarily residential. 

One of the very best things about recent development downtown is the embracement of underground parking. Unfortunately, it doesn't come cheap! But it does pave the way for creating a downtown where all off-street parking is underground, which would be amazing! Get those cars out of sight, out of mind, and out of the way.

 

I don't know of any other similarly sized American city which is embracing this solution to such a large degree, though that doesn't mean there aren't any. I guess Portland might be but I'm not familiar enough to know. Maybe they're mostly abandoning downtown parking lots and structures all together, which would be even better, but obviously isn't feasible here and now.

Dunnhumby USA picks Fifth and Race

 

Dunnhumby USA will build its new headquarters at Fifth and Race, a prime slice of city-owned real estate long eyed for redevelopment.

 

 

Great news!

good and bad news, depending on what you were hoping for.  But no mention of residential.  Lets hope this ends up with some affordable apartments. 

Yeah, it's interesting for sure..... I'm anxious for more details though!

 

Are we assuming this will be solely Dunnhumby with no other tenants or residential/hotel/etc portion?

 

I find it very hard to believe this large and important of a site would JUST be theirs. Seems like a prime site for mixed use...

 

 

Here is to hoping Dunnhumby will demand something a little more innovative in terms of building design.  This will be exciting to follow.

3CDC has always viewed the site for two towers. It would Be way to big for 1.

^^^ the good thing is that DH is definitely the type of company to utilize innovative design and creative use of space, so I would assume there's a safety net there.

If it is developed similar to QCS, the city will likely retain ownership of the land, the Port Authority may fund the garage and 3CDC will develop the building and manage it. We'll probably see two levels of retail and the possible utilization of the "skywalk to nowhere."

 

I really hope this tower (or these towers) are taller than the 14 story building that used to be there.

^ garage will likely be underground, slightly smaller than Fountain Square.

^Speaking of which, I'll try and dig up my photos of it being demo'd back in 1999.

^Speaking of which, I'll try and dig up my photos of it being demo'd back in 1999.

Thanks Jake!

 

Would like to see those.

Excited to see what becomes of this location.

 

3CDC has always viewed the site for two towers. It would Be way to big for 1.

 

Interesting...

 

I hope renderings are close behind the announcement!

Now the pressure is on to make the 5th and Race site mixed-use with an engaging retail front. If they plop a parking garage there and stick their offices on top of it like a birthday cake, it will be a travesty and continue the trend of the dying rustbelt city whoring its prime spots out to whatever once-in-a-blue-moon tenant wants it.

 

Disappointed. The Banks would have been a much more exciting spot.

Now the pressure is on to make the 5th and Race site mixed-use with an engaging retail front. If they plop a parking garage there and stick their offices on top of it like a birthday cake, it will be a travesty and continue the trend of the dying rustbelt city whoring its prime spots out to whatever once-in-a-blue-moon tenant wants it.

 

Disappointed. The Banks would have been a much more exciting spot.

 

I disagree. Fifth and Race has been as prominent of an ugly surface parking lot for a decade and in full view of visitors staying at the Hilton, Hyatt and Millennium hotels. It's high time to develop this land and start generating some revenue from it. And I would hope that the parking would be underground, ala Fountain Square and Washington Park.

 

Also, hopefully the development at Fifth and Race will generate some momentum for that part of downtown and lead to something happening at the Terrace hotel, the empty, dilapidated buildings on Sixth just to the north of the vacant lot and even spur Fifth Third to consider finally doing something with that nice three-story base of an office tower they built at Fountain Square West all those years ago.

Now the pressure is on to make the 5th and Race site mixed-use with an engaging retail front. If they plop a parking garage there and stick their offices on top of it like a birthday cake, it will be a travesty and continue the trend of the dying rustbelt city whoring its prime spots out to whatever once-in-a-blue-moon tenant wants it.

 

Disappointed. The Banks would have been a much more exciting spot.

 

It won't be a parking garage with a tower on top, I can almost guarantee that.  3CDC has had some big site studies done, some of which you can find in the previous pages of this thread.  They all call for underground parking and retail.  They almost all call for two towers, as well, with a third on top of Macy's.  That has always been the plan for this spot, and I doubt the city would have pursued this tenant so adamantly unless everyone were on board.  Dunnhumby also is not the type of company to want a parking garage as the first few stories of their building.

^ word. Also, everyone seems to forget that they want 250,000 SF. The Banks website itself says it only room for a 250k sf building. That would mean if they want to expand further in 3-7 years they need to move AGAIN! 

I was in the 5/3 skywalk lobby, right when they had torn down the walk, taking photos of the square reconstruction, and who appeared to be two execs were talking about the work, and one pointed out that "we own that", refering to the air rights above Lazarus.  If one of the higher ups didn't even know they had the rights, it's clear that they weren't anywhere close to doing something.  I have to wonder if Dunhumby ever explored building atop Macy's, or if 5/3 is truly holding onto those rights for itself, or even if 5/3 pushed the 5th & Race for Dunhumby in order to build the garage that will increase the value of their air rights and enable them to build.

 

 

I would urge everyone to look at 3CDC's track record in this city before making any assumptions about this project.

 

They don't play around and considering how crucial this project is to the CBD and the Fortune 500 "image" of this city, I would expect something solid. In terms of visibility, this site is almost as important as Fountain Square itself considering all the hotels, shopping and Duke Energy Center around.

 

Can't wait for more details and renderings. and fingers crossed for "retail" meaning grocery and a substantial residential/hotel component (one can dream, right?!)

Although I was originally hoping for them to choose The Banks site, I have been reconsidering and am happy they chose this site for the reason stated three posts above me. This site has the potential to house a much larger tower than they need at this moment. This, plus one or two floors of retail could result in a pretty decent floor count. I'm guessing that they will probably build on the southern half of the site, allowing for a future tower to be built on the northern half. I'm hoping the tower that gets built because of this move is mixed use and larger than just the needs of Dunhumby's, but even if it is solely for them, it will be great to see this spot used as something other than a surface lot.

^ word. Also, everyone seems to forget that they want 250,000 SF. The Banks website itself says it only room for a 250k sf building. That would mean if they want to expand further in 3-7 years they need to move AGAIN! 

 

This is the main reason they chose this over the Banks.  Keep in mind the Banks' office tower footprint also shrunk somewhat over over original plans, which was a handicap.

so assuming this will be 2 towers built in seperate phases, what would the vacant part of this site look like in the mean time? Do you think they would keep half surface parking, or perhaps use it for staging and trailers, etc?

so assuming this will be 2 towers built in seperate phases, what would the vacant part of this site look like in the mean time? Do you think they would keep half surface parking, or perhaps use it for staging and trailers, etc?

 

This is just a guess, but I could see the retail portion covering the entire block above the underground parking, with a Dunnhumby tower above the southern half.  The retail on the northern half would stand as a base until a (hopefully) residential tower was feasible to build atop it.

^ I agree. But in terms of initial buildout, who knows.

I agree that it would be nice to see something that would stand out.  In terms of a tower that is architecturally dazzling and grand in height.  Definitely two towers would be optimal.  But with two towers and eventually the air space above Macy’s where another tower will eventually go, the planned below ground parking on that site with around 450 spaces doesn’t seem like much.  I’m definitely all for keeping the parking underground, but how low can they dig when building a tower in this area?  If it’s possible to go lower, then I would suggestion building as many underground levels as possible to allow for future parking for other towers.  If they can go just over double and get at least 1000 spaces or maybe even more, then that would help secure the other towers going in.  As it stands now, where would people park if a building goes in above Macy’s?  If two towers are going in, who thinks that 450 spaces would be enough?   

Yeah, 450 is not enough for all of that.  Going back to the circa 2000 plans, there was going to be underground parking and above ground parking, like what was just built at the Queen City Square tower, but I don't recall how many total spots were planned.  Obviously the scale of what is built above Macy's is the issue. 

 

 

 

Well that gives way to a great idea.  Build what they can underground, keep the entire first floor for retail and DH’s corporate headquarters lobby and a lobby area for a separate residential tower, along with more retail on the second and third floors just in case they can get another department store in there.  Then they can have a drive up ramp going to the fourth floor where more parking can begin.  Have about another 8 floors of parking, then build the office space and residential above that.  That would mean that the office and residential wouldn’t even start until the 12 floor.  It would actually be one building until the 12 floor and then it would separate into two separate towers.  One residential tower and one office tower.  This would definitely be a great start for the height of the building.  The garages would be separate from each other, but that wouldn’t matter.     

Yeah, 450 is not enough for all of that.  Going back to the circa 2000 plans, there was going to be underground parking and above ground parking, like what was just built at the Queen City Square tower, but I don't recall how many total spots were planned.  Obviously the scale of what is built above Macy's is the issue. 

 

 

 

 

Fountain Square, the largest underground garage in the city, is 600 spaces. You will never get 1000 spaces underground Built by the city.

Unfortunately it sounds like they are looking at 40-50k floor plates.  This might take up more of the lot's footprint than expected and will likely not have much height to it.  At 50k they would only need 5 floors - I am guessing this desire disqualifed the Banks site.  Personally, I would have preferred something at least 15-20 stories.

I think everyone needs to chill out and wait for the drawings to appear.  The people who know what is about to happen aren't going to post it here first. 

 

Incidentally, the Indianapolis downtown Nordstrom that was the object of so much Cincinnati envy has closed, and was used during the Superbowl as some kind of "hangout" space.

http://www.ibj.com/nordstrom-exec-weak-sales-prompting-downtown-store-closing/PARAMS/article/27394

 

If you remember when the downtown Cincinnati Nordstrom store was cancelled back in 2000, they also had plans for a second store at a new mall that never materialized out in Mason or West Chester (does it make a difference?). 

 

^Monroe, I believe. And no, it does not make a difference.

This is great news for the western side of the CBD.  Everyone needs to relax and wait on more details.

It's been so long, I forget this site was considered for Playhouse in the Park. I guess that has been put on hold, but maybe the Banks can be part of that conversation.

the enquirer is reporting the plan calls for 4 to 5 floors, and show the foot print of the building taking up the whole parking lot. Yes, i will wait for more details but i had a feeling this is what they were planning as they stated they really like the tall ceilings and big wide open spaces as that is their "culture". Doesn't fit the mold of a taller building. I would think they would want the building to be tall so their signage could be seen from all angles of the city. But we will see.

The updated article is also saying 1,200 parking spaces.  So if that number is correct, we will be seeing significant above-ground parking, as there is only space for 200 spaces per deck.  So we're talking about 6-7 total decks of parking.  Five tall floors + 5~ decks of above-ground parking puts this thing at 100 feet high, at least.  Also, as long as nothing is built above Macy's, it will be visible from Fountain Square. 

I will say that nothing in this article implies the entire building will only be Dunnhumby.  It's highly likely that they will get 5ish floors and at LEAST 4-5 more floors would be built as well- with Dunnhumby as the anchor tenant while 3CDC works to fill the rest of the site.  Having ~45,000 sq/f on just one floor will be VERY unique for downtown and potentially could lure in some typically suburban businesses. 

 

Assuming that two floors are built for street level retail, then several parking decks, then 8-10 floors of office space, this could easily be a 18-20 story building.  That sounds good to me!

 

And if that means 5th and Race has no residential, I'm ok with that.  I'd rather see C Class office space converted to Apartments (Federal Reserve (already happening), Old Enquirer, Bartlett building, etc.) than new construction condos/apartments go up.

It would be very nice to see a residential component to this, but I would be even more happy to see what OC describes. Why residential developments are so slow to show up downtown boggles my mind, as the demand is demonstrated over and over.

^ Agreed. I'm betting that the Reserve at 4th & Race is full within.... 4 months from the beginning of leasing. 

 

But I digress...

Yeah they're saying 1,000 employees for Dunhumby, but a 1,200 space garage.  I don't know what the typical percentage of drivers to downtown office towers is, but saying 1,000 employees will use 750 spaces (some will carpool, take the bus, bike, walk, etc.) seems reasonable, meaning there will be parking for other tenants in the building or the air rights above Macy's. 

 

I think the problem with this new building not being tall enough is that the two drab hotels could remain prominent, so hopefully this new building will at least have enough character to take some attention away from them. 

 

Not to just mindlessly add to speculation, but if they went with a 40,000 square foot floor plate pushed all the way to the sidewalks on the south side of the site, there would still be room for a building on the north side. A residential portion with much smaller floor plates could easily fit into the northern portion of the site, giving some height beyond the possibilities on the other part of the site. Either way, it sounds as though the building will already have enough height to be significant. Maybe not as much as a tower, but more from a massing, density's sake.

With 3CDC managing the development I'm sure it'll be something good.

 

I wonder if this will mean in the next 10 years we'll see the neighboring Fountain Square West come to fruition...

 

I believe that the parking will be similar to Great American where it will go several stories above grade and be "hidden" by ground floor retail.

 

Dunnhumby will most likely only take about 60% of the proposed office space. It is never good business to have one tenant take up the entire space.*  The Carew Tower denied Kendle expansion a few years ago because they had too much space in the building.  Good thing they did that since Kendle shriveled up not too long after that. 

 

*Unless the tenant owns its own space, which appears will be the case with Dunnhumby.

 

Finally, I believe that the parking will stretch the entire block, Dunnhumby's tower will be at the corner of 5th and Race and they will cap the corner of 6th and race for a future tower, similar to Macy's. 

Just to clarify the article does NOT say 1200 spaces for the winning project. That was the deal the county put together for the Banks proposal. Also as noted Dunnhumny will own their building and 3CDC will own the rest.

not sure what anyone else has heard, but my understanding is that there have been discussions about the future of the Millenium Hotel, including demolition. The Singapore-based real esate group that owns the building has not invested in the space in many years. I stayed there once or twice five years ago and it was bad then, who know what it's like now.

This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

 

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.

• 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
  
• Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
  
• NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
  
• 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
  
• Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
  
• OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
  
• The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.

So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

 

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

^Better for the county and city, for sure.  But I think Fifth & Race is a better location for dunnhumby.  It's much closer to their clients and the rest of downtown, and it allows them a larger structure than they could have had at The Banks (according to what I'm reading... I'm not sure why they couldn't take a larger footprint and kick off Phase 2).  They're pretty isolated in their current location, and The Banks doesn't offer much over Fifth & Race beyond parking.  I totally agree that the city and county should have pushed harder to get them into The Banks, but I can definitely understand why dunnhumby chose the location they did.

Well, it is up to dunnhumbyUSA to decide on where to locate. Incentives help, but the company ultimately makes the decision. If nothing was proposed and constructed at 5th and Race for this long, then something's up.

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two.

 

Ahhhhh has no one read anything????  They physically can't fit at the Banks site.  It is a MAXIMUM 250,000 square foot building over 15 floors (revisions in construction limited the buildings size from the original plan).  That is about 16,000 square feet per floor.  They want 250,000 square feet TODAY and to own the building.  That means, if 5 years from now they hit their 1000 staff goal (currently 515 employees) they might need to move again.  And who would buy a building only to have to move 5 or so years later since it has no room for growth.

 

Dunnhumby has now on several occasions very clearly said they want large open floors, hence they are going with 40,000 square foot floors instead of the 16,000 square foot floors they would have been limited to at the Banks.

 

It's lovely to fantasize about what's best for downtown.  But we have to face reality and Dunnhumby was not going to move to the Banks site.  Period.

 

Finally- this is not the end of the world.  The old enquirer building, Barlett co. building, etc. are all empty.  Updating beautiful old office buildings to residential is all the market is interested in.  No one is taking old c-class office space from 120 year old empty buildings and making into new apartments. 

 

Finally, if anyone watches citicable religiously, yes, guiltily pleasure, the City manager said residential is still part of the plan.

This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

 

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.

• 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
  
• Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
  
• NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
  
• 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
  
• Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
  
• OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
  
• The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.

So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

 

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

 

There are still plenty of vacant parcels that could support high-rise residential:

 

- St. Xavier Park area (Sycamore both north and south of Seventh and extending north of Seventh all the way to Main)

- NE corner of Seventh and Vine and half of the entire block east of Vine

- NW corner of Sixth and Sycamore (both the vacant lot and the lot that is currently wasted on the single-story Red Fox diner)

- mid-block east side of Main between Sixth and Seventh (infill could be larger part of massive vacant lot next to St. X)

- SW corner of Ninth and Sycamore directly north of the Power Building (though this would be across the intersection from the jail)

- SE corner of Walnut and Eighth

- the vacant land on Eighth St. that the old Blue Wisp was on

- NW corner of Race and Garfield Place

- mass vacant land between One Lytle Place and the PP bridge on both sides of the street (originally slated for condo high-rises but scuttled due to the economy)

- perhaps even some decent-sized infill on the SW corner of Fifth and Broadway

 

Not to mention the mass amounts of vacant space at and near the Court/Elm/Central area. And I wouldn't count out residential being at least part of this Fifth & Race development either.

 

And why can't the lots near the courthouse and especially City Hall ever be high-rise residential? What's the roadblock?