What would prevent 3CDC from being the developer on the residential portion of the project? 

It's a really great location for a downtown Kroger, too. A block from Fountain Square, easy walk from many offices, etc. (As opposed to somewhere like the Banks.)

 

Its proximity to offices guarantees its success. I think the variable will be its hours (especially on weekends).

And that downtown Dayton Kroger had NO ONE living around it and it STILL worked.  Dayton back in the early 90's didn't have much of an actual residential population but it worked because:

 

A). It served "greater downtown."

B). It had a 5-story parking garage on top with large elevators for shopping carts

C). Across from the bus hub

D). Attached to the (now defunct) Dayton Arcade

E). Obviously many more office workers vs. today

 

And again, it had barely any residential population (certainly none within 5 blocks) and it was quite successful.  The problem is that when it became popular for shoplifting, Kroger pulled out and it became a Schear's Market (former local grocery market).  Then it just became a Kinko's when all the Schear's Markets went bankrupt.

I can't go back and re-read it now but IIRC, it said 130 residential units.  10/floor = 13 stories on top of retail and grarage.  Just a thought.

So far it doesn't sound very impressive, at this point it sounds as if it is just going to blend in.  I know it is still in the early stages and can turn out different than what information we are given at this time.  It was always said that a building that had a signature, or was more impressive for that site was going to come about.

I don't think we need another skyscraper at this point in time. A floor of retail w/ a grocery store, a few floors of office space, and a few floors of residential would be perfect.

I am honestly just happy that this site is finally getting developed. I do wish though, like previously stated, this building would have more of an impact on the skyline. I heard today that a 20 plus story building is being proposed for covington that will include residential. One would think if covington can land a high-rise residential building, that this site could as well(or at least be able to have the current proposed element of residential in place in time for construction)

I'll be happy as long as the building brings a strong presence.  A 4-5 floor building wouldn't suffice.  Something 15-20 and up would. 

I'll be happy as long as the building brings a strong presence.  A 4-5 floor building wouldn't suffice.  Something 15-20 and up would.

 

Same. Anything under 10 would be underwhelming.

I am honestly just happy that this site is finally getting developed. I do wish though, like previously stated, this building would have more of an impact on the skyline. I heard today that a 20 plus story building is being proposed for covington that will include residential. One would think if covington can land a high-rise residential building, that this site could as well(or at least be able to have the current proposed element of residential in place in time for construction)

 

Isn't most of Covington's skyline going to be vacant anyway?  Cincinnati already has a great skyline.  Skyscrapers do not make a city, street level activity adds to everything.  So while Cincinnati builds its streetcar and connects all of its major development happening around the streetcar, Covington can build its 20 story tower while most of its downtown sits empty.

Yeah, I haven't heard about this proposed 20-story tower in Covington.  Isn't that what was already proposed years ago with the Ovation project that is still not started?

My bad, I saw the link in the other thread to what you were talking about--three responses to a RFP by the City of Covington. 

This is a real wasted opportunity. The last thing this part of the CBD needs is more office space. What is sorely needed, however, is more residential...and lots of it.

 

The real beauty about this property is that it is one of maybe three sites in the downtown area that is well-suited for a high-rise residential tower.

• 2nd & Walnut is earmarked for an office tower at The Banks.
  
• Who knows what will happen at Fountain Place.
  
• NW corner of 7th & Vine could go residential high-rise.
  
• 4th & Plum will only take midrise at best due to historic district.
  
• Rest of The Banks will be low to midrise residential offerings.
  
• OTR will only ever be lowrise buildings.
  
• The lots near City Hall and the Courthouse also will probably never be high-rise development sites.

So, what Cincinnati has seemingly done is take up one of only a few select locations for a residential high-rise for an office tower that could have gone in several other locations.

 

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two. This would have also helped pump money into those county-owned garages, and in turn helped pay down the stadium debt that is crippling Hamilton County.

 

There are still plenty of vacant parcels that could support high-rise residential:

 

- St. Xavier Park area (Sycamore both north and south of Seventh and extending north of Seventh all the way to Main)

- NE corner of Seventh and Vine and half of the entire block east of Vine

- NW corner of Sixth and Sycamore (both the vacant lot and the lot that is currently wasted on the single-story Red Fox diner)

- mid-block east side of Main between Sixth and Seventh (infill could be larger part of massive vacant lot next to St. X)

- SW corner of Ninth and Sycamore directly north of the Power Building (though this would be across the intersection from the jail)

- SE corner of Walnut and Eighth

- the vacant land on Eighth St. that the old Blue Wisp was on

- NW corner of Race and Garfield Place

- mass vacant land between One Lytle Place and the PP bridge on both sides of the street (originally slated for condo high-rises but scuttled due to the economy)

- perhaps even some decent-sized infill on the SW corner of Fifth and Broadway

 

Not to mention the mass amounts of vacant space at and near the Court/Elm/Central area. And I wouldn't count out residential being at least part of this Fifth & Race development either.

 

And why can't the lots near the courthouse and especially City Hall ever be high-rise residential? What's the roadblock?

 

dunnhumbyUSA's new headquarters would have seem much better at The Banks where it would have helped either pay down the development debt on phase one, or help finance phase two.

 

Ahhhhh has no one read anything????  They physically can't fit at the Banks site.  It is a MAXIMUM 250,000 square foot building over 15 floors (revisions in construction limited the buildings size from the original plan).  That is about 16,000 square feet per floor.  They want 250,000 square feet TODAY and to own the building.  That means, if 5 years from now they hit their 1000 staff goal (currently 515 employees) they might need to move again.  And who would buy a building only to have to move 5 or so years later since it has no room for growth.

 

Dunnhumby has now on several occasions very clearly said they want large open floors, hence they are going with 40,000 square foot floors instead of the 16,000 square foot floors they would have been limited to at the Banks.

 

It's lovely to fantasize about what's best for downtown.  But we have to face reality and Dunnhumby was not going to move to the Banks site.  Period.

 

Finally- this is not the end of the world.  The old enquirer building, Barlett co. building, etc. are all empty.  Updating beautiful old office buildings to residential is all the market is interested in.  No one is taking old c-class office space from 120 year old empty buildings and making into new apartments. 

 

Finally, if anyone watches citicable religiously, yes, guiltily pleasure, the City manager said residential is still part of the plan.

 

Excellent post FWIW. There are still tons of old Class C buildings that be converted in Residential. Fifth & Race has the footprint Dunnhumby requires.

I am honestly just happy that this site is finally getting developed. I do wish though, like previously stated, this building would have more of an impact on the skyline. I heard today that a 20 plus story building is being proposed for covington that will include residential. One would think if covington can land a high-rise residential building, that this site could as well(or at least be able to have the current proposed element of residential in place in time for construction)

 

If this is the one you are referring to regarding a new tower in Covington, I have two quotes from news articles, 1st Quote: "A distinctive glass 28-story tower with hotel rooms, luxury apartments and two restaurants – one on its rooftop, one at its base." 2nd Quote:  "A proposal from the Boca Hotel Group called "The Sail Project" would include a 28-story mixed use building that would include 128 hotel rooms, 136 luxury apartments and two unique restaurant concepts. The Sail Project is proposed to be situated over the Overlook at the north end of Madison Avenue. The total cost of the development is $49.5 million. Boca proposes a construction start date of early 2013 and an opening at the end of 2014."

NKY needs to work on making the trip over the bridges more pleasant for people not in cars. They really don't need to be building towers right now. Especially no more towers with no ground-floor retail and big lawns.

 

Gotta say, I don't hear people talking about NKY anymore in terms of being a model for getting things done. I think the faultiness of that is finally starting to sink in.

I don't understand where you say Covington doesn't need to put that in.  It's actually a very good thing for Covington to put this 28 story tower in.  It's always good to see more residential going into the downtown areas of both Covington and Cincinnati.  Both sides of the river should thrive to keep a vibrant area as a whole.  This is why it's important that the residential portion slated for the 5th & Race site have as much residential as possible; the more the better for a healthy downtown.  It makes for a thriving area when you make sure you have more residential added to the mix.

I guess they can do both, but it should be their top priority to make the area near the river more inviting, precisely to make a vibrant whole for greater Downtown.

 

Towers are one way to get residents, but there is such a large space of fast food joints and parking lots that they might as well build more horizontally to fix the situation.

I'll be happy as long as the building brings a strong presence.  A 4-5 floor building wouldn't suffice.  Something 15-20 and up would. 

 

10-12 would be fine. Here is 8 stories on 4 levels of parking:

 

We should

I don't understand where you say Covington doesn't need to put that in.  It's actually a very good thing for Covington to put this 28 story tower in.  It's always good to see more residential going into the downtown areas of both Covington and Cincinnati.  Both sides of the river should thrive to keep a vibrant area as a whole.  This is why it's important that the residential portion slated for the 5th & Race site have as much residential as possible; the more the better for a healthy downtown.  It makes for a thriving area when you make sure you have more residential added to the mix.

 

Agreed-  We should WANT a successful covington & Newport.  They should be complements to Downtown & OTR and not adversaries.  I'd rather have 100 jobs go from WestChester to Covington than stay in WestChester.  And I'd rather have 400 people go from Erlanger to Newport than stay in Erlanger.  Of course, I'd rather have all that come to Cincinnati, BUT The urban core of Greater Cincinnati includes Cov. & Newport so we should want them to do well.  People living in Covington are more likely to come to Downtown to spend money than people living in Erlanger.

 

The suburbs probably love the infighting between the urban NKY & urban Cincy.

 

 

And I agree-  10-15 stories at this site is fine in my opinion.  With office vacancies at an all time high I'm not to concerned that the office portion won't be much larger than 250,000 Sqft.  Also- 160-200 units of res for this site would be good as well.  With 300 more at Banks starting this summer/fall, 88 opening at fourth and race and 250 more units in OTR beginning construction this Spring we're on pace to add over 1000 new units to downtown & OTR within the next 2 years and will likely far surpass that.

 

I still feel that the large parking lot at between 7th & 8th at Sycamore is PERFECT for a high rise residential only tower of 20-30 stories.

 

I'll be happy as long as the building brings a strong presence.  A 4-5 floor building wouldn't suffice.  Something 15-20 and up would. 

 

10-12 would be fine. Here is 8 stories on 4 levels of parking:

 

 

Scale looks close enough, or try any office building in DC as an example,

 

 

 

 

 

we need taller than those examples.  Double the height at least.  Residential density is so badly needed in Cincy's CBD and an opportunity to increase it must be capitalized on in a big way. 

^ not gonna happen.  From what I've read in every single article it seems as though it's gonna end up at around 10-12 stories.  One article even quite specifically said they are considering 160-180 residential units.

we need taller than those examples.  Double the height at least.  Residential density is so badly needed in Cincy's CBD and an opportunity to increase it must be capitalized on in a big way. 

 

What's wrong with a 12 story building, other than you can't see it in the skyline?

 

180 residential units could be 9 stories, or it could be 18 stories. You're a planner. Whip out Sketchup and rough in the program and see what you get.

I don't care about the mark it makes on the skyline.  I am simply calling for an increase in residential density. 

The following is an estimate

The site is roughly 380' x 180'.  Roughly 65,000 sq ft. 

Dunhumby's initial plans according to the Enquirer article indicate a building plan with 50,000 sq foot plates.

 

-Any residential component would probably not cover the entire building footprint and more likely would be proportional to about half the area of the site, (this is assumed because the site's proportions lend themselves to two elevator banks... so 30,000 sq ft). 

-Assuming a similar apartment size mix to the "Current at the Banks" project (average 750-800 sq ft).

-Largest size assumed: 180 units x 800 sq ft = 144,000 sq ft

-Assume a circulation factor around 20% = 28,800 sq ft

-Roughly 170,000 sq ft of Residential or 5-6 floors...

 

(1-2) story commercial base. (2 story or loft available commercial here would be very nice here)

(4-5) stories of Dunhumby commercial dedicated space. 

(2-3) Likely additional floors for future growth (Dunhumby says 1000 employees, I am currently on a project with a similar plate size trying to fit 600 employees on 3 floors... it is not so easy).  Dunhumby says they want to grow on site. It would be smart to lease out up to 3 more additional floors for other businesses to ensure onsite growth would be available.

 

Commercial 5-10

Residential 5-6

Overall 10-16 stories

 

Any way you slice it it could/should be a very nice project. Hopefully it will have a sleek commercial base including two stories of street level commercial- home to a grocer and/or upscale clothiers/goods- and a residential component to the North of the site to maximize daylight/balconies to the south. I would love for this project to have a decent roof terrace or greened roof so that the desired balconies/windows to the south have a more marketable view.

 

*if it is only business commercial I think they would fit in a few more levels for onsite insurance and overall building proportion... so basically the discussed 12. In this case I would not mind a similar to the aesthetic of 1999 K St NW (the third image posted by KyleCincy) but keep in mind that the 1999 K site is only 240ft long.

The following is an estimate

The site is roughly 380' x 180'.  Roughly 65,000 sq ft. 

Dunhumby's initial plans according to the Enquirer article indicate a building plan with 50,000 sq foot plates.

 

-Any residential component would probably not cover the entire building footprint and more likely would be proportional to about half the area of the site, (this is assumed because the site's proportions lend themselves to two elevator banks... so 30,000 sq ft). 

-Assuming a similar apartment size mix to the "Current at the Banks" project (average 750-800 sq ft).

-Largest size assumed: 180 units x 800 sq ft = 144,000 sq ft

-Assume a circulation factor around 20% = 28,800 sq ft

-Roughly 170,000 sq ft of Residential or 5-6 floors...

 

(1-2) story commercial base. (2 story or loft available commercial here would be very nice here)

(4-5) stories of Dunhumby commercial dedicated space. 

(2-3) Likely additional floors for future growth (Dunhumby says 1000 employees, I am currently on a project with a similar plate size trying to fit 600 employees on 3 floors... it is not so easy).  Dunhumby says they want to grow on site. It would be smart to lease out up to 3 more additional floors for other businesses to ensure onsite growth would be available.

 

Commercial 5-10

Residential 5-6

Overall 10-16 stories

 

Any way you slice it it could/should be a very nice project. Hopefully it will have a sleek commercial base including two stories of street level commercial- home to a grocer and/or upscale clothiers/goods- and a residential component to the North of the site to maximize daylight/balconies to the south. I would love for this project to have a decent roof terrace or greened roof so that the desired balconies/windows to the south have a more marketable view.

 

*if it is only business commercial I think they would fit in a few more levels for onsite insurance and overall building proportion... so basically the discussed 12. In this case I would not mind a similar to the aesthetic of 1999 K St NW (the third image posted by KyleCincy) but keep in mind that the 1999 K site is only 240ft long.

 

Great work-up.  Now the article mentioned parking of around 1,000 spots, I believe.  Any thoughts on how that would be included? (i.e. underground/above ground floor breakdown)

The following is an estimate

The site is roughly 380' x 180'.  Roughly 65,000 sq ft. 

Dunhumby's initial plans according to the Enquirer article indicate a building plan with 50,000 sq foot plates.

 

-Any residential component would probably not cover the entire building footprint and more likely would be proportional to about half the area of the site, (this is assumed because the site's proportions lend themselves to two elevator banks... so 30,000 sq ft). 

-Assuming a similar apartment size mix to the "Current at the Banks" project (average 750-800 sq ft).

-Largest size assumed: 180 units x 800 sq ft = 144,000 sq ft

-Assume a circulation factor around 20% = 28,800 sq ft

-Roughly 170,000 sq ft of Residential or 5-6 floors...

 

(1-2) story commercial base. (2 story or loft available commercial here would be very nice here)

(4-5) stories of Dunhumby commercial dedicated space. 

(2-3) Likely additional floors for future growth (Dunhumby says 1000 employees, I am currently on a project with a similar plate size trying to fit 600 employees on 3 floors... it is not so easy).  Dunhumby says they want to grow on site. It would be smart to lease out up to 3 more additional floors for other businesses to ensure onsite growth would be available.

 

Commercial 5-10

Residential 5-6

Overall 10-16 stories

 

Any way you slice it it could/should be a very nice project. Hopefully it will have a sleek commercial base including two stories of street level commercial- home to a grocer and/or upscale clothiers/goods- and a residential component to the North of the site to maximize daylight/balconies to the south. I would love for this project to have a decent roof terrace or greened roof so that the desired balconies/windows to the south have a more marketable view.

 

*if it is only business commercial I think they would fit in a few more levels for onsite insurance and overall building proportion... so basically the discussed 12. In this case I would not mind a similar to the aesthetic of 1999 K St NW (the third image posted by KyleCincy) but keep in mind that the 1999 K site is only 240ft long.

 

Well thought out estimate. One of the things I like about most of the users on this forum.

 

Did you consider the possibly of 2 buildings sitting on the park garage as the last enquirer kind of stated?

 

we need taller than those examples.  Double the height at least.  Residential density is so badly needed in Cincy's CBD and an opportunity to increase it must be capitalized on in a big way. 

 

What's wrong with a 12 story building, other than you can't see it in the skyline?

 

180 residential units could be 9 stories, or it could be 18 stories. You're a planner. Whip out Sketchup and rough in the program and see what you get.

 

I think that it does make a difference the way it could influence the skyline.  You hear how people comment on how beautiful the Cincinnati skyline is, well I’m also one of those people.  We wouldn’t be saying that if the buildings that make up downtown didn’t have an impact.  It’s nice when a new building compliments that look rather than blends in between the other buildings.  This is also why I’m hoping this isn’t some boring square or rectangular building without any character.  With this being said, one of the more important issues will be the living space included into these plans; the more units the better.  The city lacks high-rise living and needs high-rise apartments in the CBD. 

Well thought out estimate. One of the things I like about most of the users on this forum.

 

Did you consider the possibly of 2 buildings sitting on the park garage as the last enquirer kind of stated?

 

 

The way I read the quote was as two phases (above/below or north/south like the two cores)... if in fact it becomes two buildings, I would say 40,000 for the first tower (that was the lower number quoted in the Enquirer) and the parking under that building.  Depending on the developer and if there are struggles etc the second phase could either be on the parking garage or not, assuming the garage may only be held to the footprint of the first phase for timing reasons.  If the second phase is a completely separate project... 20,000 sq ft with a 5,000 sq ft alley or garage ventilation between (for the full site of 65,000).... so that would be a 10 stories of residences with a lobby/service floor, a mechanical and small penthouse floor, so technically something like 12 floors.

- There's almost no way it's going to be one giant building pad all the way up. Good to keep in mind that light only penetrates about 40' into a building. My own screwings-around came up with something similar to NatiStreets, feels like a two elevator core site, at least.

 

- As far as impacting the skyline, even a 20 story tower isn't going to change the skyline in that location. It's a moot point. If for some reason they started considering 400 or 500 units there, then you'd see a noticeable impact on the skyline.

 

- 180 units of new construction residential there would be fantastic. However, I do think that if they get a Kroger in there, they could double it.

 

There are really three different issues bouncing around this discussion: Presence, Height and Density of residential units. They are only loosely related. It depends on the size of the units, among other things. For example, a 180 unit proposal:

 

 

A 120 unit project:

I'm loving all this discussion! I'm currently taking a site planning class, as well as an urban design studio, and these issues of density and form have been really difficult to deal with when making my plans and proposals.

What I've heard rumored out of 3CDC is 400 spaces under groud, 2 floors of retail across the whole floor plan, then ~4 levels of garage parking, then on about 3/4 of the site a ~5 story office tower, an on the remaining 1/4 (likely to be the 6th st side) a residential tower above the garage of about 160-180 units.

 

Residential would not be above office and would sort of be it's own tower (likely sharing a major structural wall with the office space).

Basically no office or residential users would be parking underground. That would be primarily for public/retail use

What I've heard rumored out of 3CDC is 400 spaces under groud, 2 floors of retail across the whole floor plan, then ~4 levels of garage parking, then on about 3/4 of the site a ~5 story office tower, an on the remaining 1/4 (likely to be the 6th st side) a residential tower above the garage of about 160-180 units.

 

Residential would not be above office and would sort of be it's own tower (likely sharing a major structural wall with the office space).

 

Very quick sketchup of what that might look like on the site:

 

Thanks for that drawing.  Something like what you have pictured could be a very solid addition to the city.  I think some folks around here worry too much about everything being a landmark. 

What I've heard rumored out of 3CDC is 400 spaces under groud, 2 floors of retail across the whole floor plan, then ~4 levels of garage parking, then on about 3/4 of the site a ~5 story office tower, an on the remaining 1/4 (likely to be the 6th st side) a residential tower above the garage of about 160-180 units.

 

Residential would not be above office and would sort of be it's own tower (likely sharing a major structural wall with the office space).

 

Very quick sketchup of what that might look like on the site:

 

 

Good job!

So how did you do that cut and paste?

Nice sketch.  That is exactly what I have pictured in my mind.

Are we assuming, or has it been said, that 100% of the office space will be for Dunnhumby/Dunnhumby expansion?  I remember someone mentioning they would expect the Dunnhumby space to be 60% of total office space. 

Also, has it been said that the above ground portion of the garage will cover the site entirely or will there be liner buildings?  It would be nice if the garage was lined on the east, south, and north sides.  Assuming a 180' wide site, it would fit. 

Also, has it been said that the above ground portion of the garage will cover the site entirely or will there be liner buildings?  It would be nice if the garage was lined on the east, south, and north sides.  Assuming a 180' wide site, it would fit. 

 

I'm sure they will do something. But I bet they won't line the garage levels with anything, if there will be a floor or two of retail on the bottom.

 

PS: Just as a caveat to anyone, that massing model is a massing model, not my attempt at architecture LOL.

 

PS: Just as a caveat to anyone, that massing model is a massing model, not my attempt at architecture LOL.

 

I dunno, I think it looks nicer than the Fifth-Third Building already!

Civvik!! Love it.    I would say that the first two floors are likely to be "oversized" as they are retail oriented (grocery store, movie theater, major other retail tenant, etc).  more like floor and a half's.  With that adjustment I'd bet the final product will be fairly similar. 

 

 

 

Civvik!! Love it.    I would say that the first two floors are likely to be "oversized" as they are retail oriented (grocery store, movie theater, major other retail tenant, etc).  more like floor and a half's.  With that adjustment I'd bet the final product will be fairly similar. 

 

 

 

 

I gave the retail floors 13' I think, and the office 12' because I hear they want high ceilings. When we plugged in retail in these massing models we usually just did something like 13' high and 60' deep. Any architects know if there's some fairly standard height, say for a grocery?

^I would say most of those numbers are relatively conservative in terms of height.  The retail levels would be anybodys guess but 16 feet is probably realistic.  For the office levels, depending on the ceiling finish approach, i wouldnt expect anything under 14' floor to floor.  The ceiling they have now are incredibly high, maybe in the range of 16 feet... but thats just a guess.

So...if a new Kroger is in fact built at this site, will the OTR Kroger close?  My bet is yes -- the sequence of events is such that this project will be coming online at roughly the time the streetcar becomes active, helping the value of their OTR property.  It's obviously a big enough site for a nice apartment building. 

So...if a new Kroger is in fact built at this site, will the OTR Kroger close?  My bet is yes -- the sequence of events is such that this project will be coming online at roughly the time the streetcar becomes active, helping the value of their OTR property.  It's obviously a big enough site for a nice apartment building.

 

I agree that what is thought of is not big enough when it comes to a large apartment building.  Downtown doesn’t have any high-rise apartment buildings and it is desperately needed.  I am not talking about some mid-rise building that is compact and short for apartment living, we have that; very boring, I want a view.  What we need would be not just one, but several high-rise buildings in downtown and this site can offer the start of that.  I remember when I wanted to move downtown it was so disappointing because I didn’t have any options to live in a high-rise apartment.  The real estate was not there.  I was told that if I wanted to have something like that I would have to live on one of the hills to have a view or live in the Lytle apartments on the river.  I didn’t want to live on the river, I didn’t want to live on the outskirts of downtown and I didn’t want to live in an apartment building that was only a few floors up from street level.  I wanted to have a view!  Actual city living.  I did not even have the opportunity to even choose since there isn’t any.  If the DH office portion wants to stay mid level, then I say fine, just at least do the apartment portion right and give high-rise living for us so we have an opportunity to live life like that.  We are out there and want to live in the high-rises, just give it to us please.

So...if a new Kroger is in fact built at this site, will the OTR Kroger close?  My bet is yes -- the sequence of events is such that this project will be coming online at roughly the time the streetcar becomes active, helping the value of their OTR property.  It's obviously a big enough site for a nice apartment building.

 

I agree that what is thought of is not big enough when it comes to a large apartment building.  Downtown doesn’t have any high-rise apartment buildings and it is desperately needed.  I am not talking about some mid-rise building that is compact and short for apartment living, we have that; very boring, I want a view.  What we need would be not just one, but several high-rise buildings in downtown and this site can offer the start of that.  I remember when I wanted to move downtown it was so disappointing because I didn’t have any options to live in a high-rise apartment.  The real estate was not there.  I was told that if I wanted to have something like that I would have to live on one of the hills to have a view or live in the Lytle apartments on the river.  I didn’t want to live on the river, I didn’t want to live on the outskirts of downtown and I didn’t want to live in an apartment building that was only a few floors up from street level.  I wanted to have a view!  Actual city living.  I did not even have the opportunity to even choose since there isn’t any.  If the DH office portion wants to stay mid level, then I say fine, just at least do the apartment portion right and give high-rise living for us so we have an opportunity to live life like that.  We are out there and want to live in the high-rises, just give it to us please.

 

Seanian, I agree with about that lack of a high rise product with great views, even a balcony with a great views. There is a lack of that in Downtown.

Building new and building high is also expensive, but hopefully something comes along.

 

Not sure where you are at now? What about 4th and Race Building and the Banks? Might be the best options to find a view? The Renaissance and Reserve 4th & Race have nice rooftop decks with decent views. When you walk around River North in Chicago your jaw drops at some of the apartment/condo buildings.

I think retrofitting one of the older office buildings as apartments makes more sense than a massive apartment tower at this spot.

I think retrofitting one of the older office buildings as apartments makes more sense than a massive apartment tower at this spot.

 

That is fine but irrelevant. This isn't Sim City. Residential is crucial to the success of this project and to DT.  There is a demand for new construction products in the Cbd. There is a demand for a product that simply cant be filled by converting old office buildings into apartments does not provide.  Why is this so hard to understand?

I think retrofitting one of the older office buildings as apartments makes more sense than a massive apartment tower at this spot.

 

There's market demand for both types of apartments. I think the rental statistics in DT & OTR speak to this. Vacancies are close to 0%.