I think retrofitting one of the older office buildings as apartments makes more sense than a massive apartment tower at this spot.

 

There's market demand for both types of apartments. I think the rental statistics in DT & OTR speak to this. Vacancies are close to 0%.

 

Right and the point with this project is to do it right and not miss an opportunity to expand the CBD's offerings. A sqautty apartment bldg won't take DT to the next level like a 15 story tower would.

 

I'm very curious to know when we may know more. Anyone have any ideas of a timeline?

I think retrofitting one of the older office buildings as apartments makes more sense than a massive apartment tower at this spot.

 

There's market demand for both types of apartments. I think the rental statistics in DT & OTR speak to this. Vacancies are close to 0%.

 

Exactly.  And they aren't mutually exclusive.  We need differing products to compete and compliment.  I am excited for this project and hope they go for something significant.   

I think retrofitting one of the older office buildings as apartments makes more sense than a massive apartment tower at this spot.

 

There's market demand for both types of apartments. I think the rental statistics in DT & OTR speak to this. Vacancies are close to 0%.

 

Exactly.  And they aren't mutually exclusive.  We need differing products to compete and compliment.  I am excited for this project and hope they go for something significant. 

 

i would hope for something significant but it will probably be a let down.

^ what kind of comment is that??  When has 3CDC had a great opportunity and then failed.  Fountain Square is great.  The Gateway Quarter is great.  Washington Park is about to be a game changer. 

^ Thing is, this is more about Dunn Humby than 3CDC.

So...if a new Kroger is in fact built at this site, will the OTR Kroger close?  My bet is yes -- the sequence of events is such that this project will be coming online at roughly the time the streetcar becomes active, helping the value of their OTR property.  It's obviously a big enough site for a nice apartment building.

 

I agree that what is thought of is not big enough when it comes to a large apartment building.  Downtown doesnt have any high-rise apartment buildings and it is desperately needed.  I am not talking about some mid-rise building that is compact and short for apartment living, we have that; very boring, I want a view.  What we need would be not just one, but several high-rise buildings in downtown and this site can offer the start of that.  I remember when I wanted to move downtown it was so disappointing because I didnt have any options to live in a high-rise apartment.  The real estate was not there.  I was told that if I wanted to have something like that I would have to live on one of the hills to have a view or live in the Lytle apartments on the river.  I didnt want to live on the river, I didnt want to live on the outskirts of downtown and I didnt want to live in an apartment building that was only a few floors up from street level.  I wanted to have a view!  Actual city living.  I did not even have the opportunity to even choose since there isnt any.  If the DH office portion wants to stay mid level, then I say fine, just at least do the apartment portion right and give high-rise living for us so we have an opportunity to live life like that.  We are out there and want to live in the high-rises, just give it to us please.

 

I don't think Jake was talking about the residential portion of the Fifth and Race site.  I think it was the point that if there is, in fact, a Kroger store built as part of the Fifth and Race development, it would make sense of the OTR Kroger to close, which would lead to a nice parcel on Vine that could be developed residential. 

^ what kind of comment is that??  When has 3CDC had a great opportunity and then failed.  Fountain Square is great.  The Gateway Quarter is great.  Washington Park is about to be a game changer.

 

I just don't think the project will meet peoples very high expections(hopes) for the project. Thats all, nothing more nothing less. Hence the "let down".

I think it's tough to have a lot of expectations for the project at this point.  We haven't seen anything concrete yet to get excited about. 

Instead of naysaying, why not advocate for a better product?  It makes no sense to me why people constantly feel the need to be debbie downer.  If we start from mediocre, the product will always get muddled down to sub-par.  I think 3CDC realizes this and that is why we have seen such quality product in OTR - their vision originates from high expectations.       

I don't think this is a good spot for a big apt tower at all. I rather see that closer to the Banks or along Central Parkway. I agree that there is demand for new apartments, but I'd rather have the older buildings brought on line first before we add new ones.

I don't think this is a good spot for a big apt tower at all. I rather see that closer to the Banks or along Central Parkway. I agree that there is demand for new apartments, but I'd rather have the older buildings brought on line first before we add new ones.

 

What is your reasoning for that opinion? Why is this not a good spot? Why would closer to the Banks or Central Pkwy be better locations?

I don't think this is a good spot for a big apt tower at all. I rather see that closer to the Banks or along Central Parkway. I agree that there is demand for new apartments, but I'd rather have the older buildings brought on line first before we add new ones.

 

What is your reasoning for that opinion? Why is this not a good spot? Why would closer to the Banks or Central Pkwy be better locations?

 

Can't speak for the poster himself but on those sites such a tower would be more visible, the sites would receive more sunlight, and would have "sweeping" views of the basin (OTR, theWE, and the CBD)  or river.

What nati streets said.

does anyone have old photos of the 5th and race site? i've found a few aerials of downtown in the 70's and 80's, but didnt know if anyone might have good photos of what used to be here

Yeah I've got a walgreen's 4x6 somewhere but I haven't been able to find it.  There was a small parking garage on the north third of the block, then a cheap-looking office building on the south part with two floors of retail.  The skywalk wrapped around the outside.  There was a Burger King, a Walgreen's, and I think a gyro place.

and an Arby's, I may have some old shots somewhere I can try to find

Yeah.  Old shots would be nice to see.

The skywalk was outdoors and wrapped around the base like a balcony.  It connected the skywalks from LS Ayres and Sak's 5th Avenue.  The building was concrete and cheap metal with black widows in horizontal strips.  It was about 12 floors tall, but with very small floors. 

 

I also remember a Roy Rogers and SkyWalk Cinemas, but I can't remember exactly where those were. 

 

I do know that City Data posters are obsessed with remembering what store was where in the Roselawn Valley Shop-In circa 1953, along with every other neighborhood strip.  It's amazing to me to what extent people look back nostalgically on stores, especially chain stores. 

 

If anyone remembers Spathe's Hardware on Colerain in Mt. Airy, now that was a store.  It was literally just a big barn with dirt floors and a bunch of feral cats running around, leaping over and between boxes of washers and hex nuts.  No heating or cooling, and we liked it that way. 

 

 

 

I also remember a Roy Rogers and SkyWalk Cinemas, but I can't remember exactly where those were.

 

If I remember correctly, that restaurant and cinema were on the Skywalk just before it crossed Race, between 5th & 6th Sts., into the hotels.  (the last movie I watched there being Steven King's "Pet Cemetery") And, BTW, even though I'm an old codger myself, I simply abhor it over on CityData when one of their "regulars" initiates another nostalgia-laden post (like "Do you remember Reading Rd. when..."),  then another ten or fifteen oldsters chime in.  Seldom do you see that on either the Cleveland or Columbus C-D threads; their posters seem more concerned about topical city issues and new developments.

 

 

 

 

 

I heard rumors Dunnhumby wants something architecturally unique, but not something that looks fancy, pristine or over the top.  Less tiaras, more raw.  Possibly mixes of glass, concrete, metal, etc. 

^ interesting, did you hear anything else? like size or apartments or when renderings would be made public?

Interesting.  I hadn't heard anything about design but I have heard that some developers have come forward and are in  talks with 3CDC about being part of this developments.  Basically I was told its now UNlikely there won't be apartments.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20120319/BIZ/303190132/dunnhumby-incentive-plan-detailed?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

 

 

Some interesting information: States it will be a 36 Million dollar project. What does 36 Million buy these days?

"It’s unclear whether the $36 million price tag includes 3CDC’s portion of the project."

Ya-  Unless the place is being built out of Plywood, $36 mill has to be only the office part, not the garages or retail.

 

 

DunnhumbyUSA tax breaks approved by committee

 

Cincinnati Council's finance committee approved tax breaks worth up to $12 million to encourage construction of a $36 million headquarters building for DunnhumbyUSA    LLC.

 

The full council votes on the incentive package Wednesday. The data-based marketing company is vowing to retain 450 jobs and hire 550 more employees by 2014, as part of it plan to move to Fifth and Race Streets downtown.

 

Cont

So how long until we see renderings and/or the full project details...I have to imagine these are already ironed out by now...

36 mil doesn't really sound like high design, but I don't claim to know a lot about development costs.

So how long until we see renderings and/or the full project details...I have to imagine these are already ironed out by now...

 

I saw something in the early stages that had 220x185 floor plates, or about 40,000sf.  It was the south part of the block and 7 or 8 floors above the parking.  No real design to it, just a big rectangle.  Exterior finish wasn't really shown.

 

I didn't see any parking garage details and the north part of the lot was empty on what I saw, but I think the focus is getting the office building started ASAP and the residential will follow.

 

Not sure I was supposed to even see anything so please don't DM me begging for more details :)

It all depends on whats included in that 36 million. If it is the previously reported 200,000SF that is a measely $180/SF, not much room for high design if that includes interior fitout, elevators, lobbies, etc. 

Why waste real estate in the CBD on a low to mid rise building? That would be better off at Keystone, but still in the city of Cincinnati. In the CBD it should be a minimal of 20 stories to maximize on space and density. Which would mean more tax dollars for the city.

Why waste real estate in the CBD on a low to mid rise building? That would be better off at Keystone, but still in the city of Cincinnati. In the CBD it should be a minimal of 20 stories to maximize on space and density. Which would mean more tax dollars for the city.

 

I agree with the waste of real estate on low to mid rise in the CBD.  So why wouldn't 3CDC try to get another tenant that likes the larger floor layout, some tenant that typically would be on the outer edges of the metro area.  Depending on the size of the company(s), they could add another 20 or more floors above or below Dunnhumby's portion.  I've seen companies leave downtown for the suburbs, why not get some of them back.  Cincinnati's CBD has a lot more to offer these days and I would think that some of these companies on the outskirts of town would now be wanting to come to the CBD or come back to the CBD.     

^ Vacancy rates are also at an all time high.... It's hard to justify building a 20 story building when there is a 20 story building at 6th & Walnut that is 75% empty. Along with many others that are 20-30% empty.

 

It's simple market economics. Do they wait ANOTHER 10 years for some magical high rise, or build an 8 story mid rise that dramatically improves the street level density in the neighborhood, provides a great place for the fastest growing business in downtown & add 150 new residents.

 

If there was enough demand I'm sure another business would have said, wait! We want to be the anchor tenant in 2 more floor, etc.

 

But no one is just going to build that with current vacancy rates.

 

I'm ok with the current plan. Not thrilled to build an 8 story tower here, but it's fine. It will be good.

 

 

 

 

Also- related to companies who have left, some left because they WANT suburban style office campuses.  Cincinnati has virtually NO suburban style office areas(keystone, Oakley Station, Xavier park[eventually]), and it's a simple fact: some businesses prefer them.

 

So I recently heard that between $50-60 million is the cost for the garage and retail- and that is separate from the cost of the office space (roughly $36 million). so total is an $85-95 million building.  no idea if that includes the apartment cost.  Guessing not.

 

 

Announcement coming today at 11:30AM. From Dunnhumby's Twitter account it looks like Kroger will be a part of this announcement as well *fingers crossed*

Any updates? 

1000 dunnhumbyUSA employees will work at the 5th and Race Development (from ChooseCincy twitter, retweeted by Dunnhumby):

 

http://twitter.com/#!/choosecincy/status/187204141519601664

 

Great news! I knew they wanted to expand, but that's as big as the highest estimate I've heard so far. Does anyone know if the announcement covered anything else (like a downtown Kroger, not to hope for too much)?

 

EDIT: Here's the link to the Business Courier article: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2012/04/03/kasich-kvamme-announce-dunnhumbyusa.html

 

EDIT2: Looks like Dunnhumby will potentially occupy 10 floors by itself. If residential would be on top of that, the place could end up being pretty tall. Although some people have talked about the residential being beside the Dunnhumby component, rather than above/below it.

From the article posted on Bussiness Courier, it looks like it will only be 5 floors, with the option to expand in the future if needed. So that would mean if residental is going to happen, it would be built beside the building, not on top. Am I totally missing something, or am I understanding this correctly? I still think its great news to hear that they will be expanding to 1,000 employees. That is great news for Cincy.

Actually, I think you're right, from the sound of the article. I just saw it immediately after I posted, did a quick skim, and edited my post.

So are we looking at a 5 story building here with potential to build on top of that base?

5 stories of office.  1 story of retail.  and probably 3-4 of parking.  so off the bat, probably 10 stories.  with the option of 5 more. 

Was there no mention of residential or a Kroger location on this site today? Those are the portions I care most about to be honest....

Pretty sure the Kroger idea is dead. I heard from some friends it was never going to be a full service Kroger anyway, but that they considered a Kroger "minimart" type place.

 

All my sources still say yes to residential & that multiple developers are vying for the project. This will be adjacent to the office space, above some parking.

 

I'm hearing: 3 stories underground parking. 2 stories of retail 1-2 floors of parking above ground and then 5 stories of office with option for more office at a later date.

It will be interesting to see if there will be enough excess parking to serve the air rights above Macy's.

Highly unlikely.

 

Let's count the numbers:

 

Dunnhumby expects 1000 employees in 2 years at this site. You can guess that means 800 spaces needed at any given time by them.

 

They are likely putting three stories underground with 1-2 stories above ground. Fountain square garage, for comparison, is 600 spaces.

Add required parking for 150 apartments

Add ~75 retail/restaurant employees.

Add 100 shoppers/downtown patrons busting the site or things near by.

 

We just counted demand for about 1200 spaces on that site alone.

 

 

Definitely won't be space for anything above Macy's. So sad they didn't add underground parking there originally.

Don't count out The Banks for additional parking as additional phases are developed. That should alleviate pressures on parking for 2nd-5th Streets at the least.

^ businesses/monthly pass holders cannot use the Riverfront garages on game days.

I wouldn't pay $75 a month to be kicked out of my space for random Wednesday afternoon games in the summer.

Interesting - did not know that. I wonder if that will be a problem when the garages are fully complete.

Macy's does have an underground garage, but it is fairly small.  I've never parked there so I'm not sure how many spaces it has.  I'm concerned at this point that we won't see Fountain Place live long enough to order a beer, as the location is too valuable to remain what it is.  5/3 probably still holds the air rights so would have some hand in how it's redeveloped.