November 3, 200717 yr I don't know how much you should read into this but on Thursday I saw several meters in the vicinity of 5th and Race were marked reserved for Eagle Realty.
December 3, 200717 yr Playhouse Considering Another Downtown Site — Kevin Osborne, November 30, 2007 Facing stalled negotiations about building a facility at the long vacant site at Fifth and Race streets downtown, Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park is now considering a move one block east to a new structure that would be built atop the Macy’s department store that overlooks Fountain Square. Fifth Third Bank has the development rights to build on top of Macy’s, and a company vice president confirmed to CityBeat this afternoon that it’s reviewing the feasibility of allowing the Playhouse and Children’s Theatre of Cincinnati to be part of a new project there. To read more: http://blogs.citybeat.com/porkopolis/2007/11/playhouse-consi.html#more
December 3, 200717 yr I've heard that as recently as a week or so ago, Eagle Realty was showing off its latest renderings of their proposed 5th & Race project to Western & Southern employees. Essentially I've heard that they are stalling because they want the city to chip in a little more for the project.
December 4, 200717 yr Mark my word ... as soon as they announce a condo tower, we are signing on the dotted line! When is the next dead-line?
December 6, 200717 yr Developers likely will delay Fifth and Race plan again BY KEITH T. REED | [email protected] Another deadline is set to pass on a plan to develop the vacant, valuable parcel at the corner of Fifth and Race streets. Eagle Realty Group, the real estate arm of Western & Southern Financial Group, has until Friday to submit a plan for the site, under a development-rights agreement with the city. The developer earlier this year proposed a $100 million residential, retail and parking development there but has since been given three extensions as talks continue. Now another delay is likely. "We are working with them to provide for another extension. The length of that is being worked out given the upcoming holidays," city spokeswoman Meg Olberding said via e-mail. Read full article here: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071206/BIZ01/712060326/1076/BIZ
December 6, 200717 yr Seriously. The city needs to let them go. That is prime real estate. There is too much momentum going on right now in the CBD. That parcel won't last long the way things are going.
December 7, 200717 yr Does any developer do more talking and less development than Eagle? I really think they have good intentions, but either do something or get out of the way.
December 8, 200717 yr It seems that Western and Southern seem to slow down development, even their own. They were part of the group that filed the delay for The Banks after the increase in density was approved. However they also seem to be realists in the end. They know that having development rights to one of the most sought after spaces in the CBD in valuable. If they delay too much they will lose the rights and that which would cost them significantly. They'll go forward after they've pressured the city for as much help (read money) as they can. The city would be advised to not extend the development rights too long and put the pressure back on them. Unlike the Banks, this space would be developed quickly if the current agreement fell through.
January 30, 200817 yr Downtown tower snagged 5th and Race developer wants $3.8M BY KEITH T. REED | [email protected] A long-stalled project for downtown Cincinnati is in new jeopardy. Negotiations between the city and Eagle Realty Group, which for a decade has held development rights at the corner of Fifth and Race, have failed to yield an agreement on Eagle's proposal for a 22-story, $100 million condo tower across from Macy's and Saks Fifth Avenue. Eagle got its third extension from the city in December, giving a Thursday deadline to complete a deal. But letters to City Council, Mayor Mark Mallory and City Manager Milton Dohoney Jr. from Eagle president Mario San Marco, which were obtained by The Enquirer, suggest the project could be derailed if the city won't cover an estimated $3.8 million gap in financing - money that Eagle said the city originally promised and is necessary for Eagle not to take a loss on the project. Read full article here: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080130/BIZ01/801300349/1076/BIZ
January 30, 200817 yr Not an expert on this project but at this point finding 3.8 MM to make the project go forward seems like it would have a good ROI. 22 story condo tower = further critical mass for CBD.
January 30, 200817 yr $3.8M seems like a lot for a project of this size...considering the site is cleared and ready to go. Can Eagle really not make the finances work on a project like this?!?! If Eagle thinks this is a truly important project then they should be able to figure out the finances on their own...I'm growing tired of the City having to throw more and more $$$ at developers to get things done. Downtown isn't the risk market it once was...if you build a nice looking 20-30 story tower there that markets itself to YPs it would sell very quickly. Density is key in this sense to make the finances work, but I would think the City would be more willing to grant extra density over extra financing any day. I think it's time to quit negotiating with Eagle, on this site, and move on to someone who is capable of getting the project done.
January 30, 200817 yr does this thing have a parking garage component? If it didnt, or if it was cut in half, it would be much more feasible. *bring in need for streetcar here*
January 30, 200817 yr ^^Again, not knowing much about this project...you seem to make a good argument. Since the city has cleared the site it seems like they have made an effort to meet any potential developer in the middle. So what I hear is that the city could come back with relaxed height allowances so more density/volume could be achieved in the development and offset the financial shortfall?
January 30, 200817 yr So what I hear is that the city could come back with relaxed height allowances so more density/volume could be achieved in the development and offset the financial shortfall? I think it is doubtful that this will happen...I doubt the City will make an offer of that sorts, and I also don't think Eagle will ask for it. Even though something like this could make their project more financially feasible and self-sufficient. I just don't think Eagle is making the necessary efforts and is just taking the easy route and asking for city money instead of re-examining their financial model. Atlas, yes this does include a parking significant amounts of parking as per City Code I'm sure.
January 30, 200817 yr As per the City's Zoning Code, it is required that developments meet the following parking requirements based on their "parking subdistrict" as outlined in the attached map. 5th & Race falls in Parking Subdistrict W and must provide the following: 1 parking space per dwelling unit 1 parking space per 1,200 sf of Office uses ***This is the least demanding subdistrict, for parking, of the 4 areas.*** Considering they were/are proposing a 2 phase project of 250 units each...they would be looking at around 500 spaces just for the residential alone. Considering that Eagle was able to use nearby parking as their parking requirement for 6th & Race...I doubt that it will fly again - especially for a project of this size. They are also going to have some retail, and I remember them saying that they would like to provide some extra parking (maybe for 6th & Race). So we're probably looking at a minimum 600 space garage without any variances.
January 30, 200817 yr This also might be relevant...here is a Max. Building Height Overlay Map for Downtown.
January 30, 200817 yr What's funny is that there was a city-owned parking garage on this land, at the SW corner of 6th & Race, which held about 300 cars. But when plans for Nordstrom were picking up, the garage was mysteriously found to have some sort of structural problem, shut down that day, and demolished soon after. Here you can see a picture of it in 1999:
January 30, 200817 yr After some further reading...it also looks like 5th & Race will be required to provide a minimum of 60% commercial space at street-level on their frontages on 6th, Race, and 5th.
January 30, 200817 yr "But letters to City Council, Mayor Mark Mallory and City Manager Milton Dohoney Jr. from Eagle president Mario San Marco, which were obtained by The Enquirer, suggest the project could be derailed if the city won't cover an estimated $3.8 million gap in financing - money that Eagle said the city originally promised and is necessary for Eagle not to take a loss on the project." This sounds like total BS, Eagle. You're telling me that without a $3.8 million "gift" you'll take a loss on the project? So, if the city gives you $3.8 million, you're willing to move forward on a project that you will only break even on? Why would build it at all, if that's the case? It's time to give up on Eagle and bring in a new developer for this site. What the CBD market is seriously lacking is affordable housing. If they're going to do condos, make them small, attractive, and price them around $150k and you'll have downtown workers in their mid-twenties lined up around the block. I can't tell you how many people enjoy downtown but aren't sold on OTR yet, who don't consider living near their offices in the CBD simply because most of the condos are priced out of their range.
January 30, 200817 yr I can't tell you how many people enjoy downtown but aren't sold on OTR yet, who don't consider living near their offices in the CBD simply because most of the condos are priced out of their range. So very true!
January 30, 200817 yr Dohoney gives 'final offer' for Fifth and Race site BY DAN MONK | CINCINNATI BUSINESS COURIER January 30, 2008 Cincinnati City Manager Milton Dohoney has delivered the city's "last, best and final offer" to Eagle Realty Group for a $100 million condominium project at the corner of Fifth and Race streets downtown. The long-stalled project faces a Feb. 1 deadline requiring Eagle to strike a deal with the city or risk losing its development rights for the two-acre site just one block west of Fountain Square. In a Tuesday e-mail to Eagle Realty Group President Mario San Marco, Dohoney said the city is willing to issue $13.5 million in bonds backed by tax increment financing (TIF) and provide a $2 million cash grant to the project, which is expected to yield more than 250 condo units, 700 parking spaces and an unspecified amount of retail space. In addition, Dohoney offered to donate the land for the project, valued at between $8 million and $12.5 million. Read full article here: http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2008/01/28/daily35.html
January 30, 200817 yr You will never see a residential project in the CBD developed without a substantial subsidy. For that matter, OTR is the same way. In this city, urban residences are currently unfeasible without some handouts. The market is just not there yet...
January 31, 200817 yr In this city, urban residences are currently unfeasible without some handouts. The market is just not there yet... That is exactly the card that Eagle is playing...and you know what I DON'T BUY IT! The developers in this market are going to keep citing that until it just becomes so ridiculous that it doesn't even pass for being logical any more. Eagle is trying to squeeze every last penny out of every entity...that is their M.O. and it is a reflection of their W&S oversight. I understand the importance of incentives and subsidies, but I have gotten tired of these developers holding our city hostage because they claim they can't make it work financially. I just don't buy it...I've seen the things they are doing elsewhere and I've seen the lack of incentives/subsidies in other cities. Cincinnati heavily subsidizes virtually everything...and you know what - I think it is about time the private sector starts returning the damn favor.
January 31, 200817 yr You will never see a residential project in the CBD developed without a substantial subsidy. For that matter, OTR is the same way. In this city, urban residences are currently unfeasible without some handouts. The market is just not there yet... streetcar closes the gap, reduces subsidies
January 31, 200817 yr Deadline today on 250 downtown condos BY KEITH T. REED | CINCINNATI ENQUIRER January 31, 2008 It all comes down to $3.8 million. That's the amount that threatens to kill a long-delayed proposal to build 250 condominiums at Fifth and Race streets downtown and apparently, that's enough for the city to stop negotiating the $100 million project. Today is the deadline for the city and Eagle Realty Group to reach a pact allowing the project to move forward. But both sides have dug in their heels. Eagle wants the city to follow through on a promise of a $5.8 million cash subsidy that was made years ago when a roughly 100,000-square-foot retail project was proposed for the space. Read full article here: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080131/BIZ01/801310327/1076/BIZ
January 31, 200817 yr San Marco fired a response to Dohoney and city council Wednesday, arguing that it is taking a huge risk by pledging $94.3 million of the project's $100 million cost, including a promise to purchase the city-issued bonds behind any tax increment financing. I just don't get this...the whole project is going to eventually include 500 units and then the retail space below. If you chop up that $94.3M between the 250 units that puts you at a $377,200/unit cost to break even...without the retail/parking revenues. If you include the additional 250 units that have been proposed then you chop that cost down to $188,600/unit to break even (once again without retail/parking revenues). So if you sold the units for $200k/unit you could then already come out ahead with about $100M in revenues from that...add in long-term parking/retail revenues and it sounds like a winner to me. They are just trying to pad their profits as much as they can. This thing would quickly sell off at $200k/unit and they have to know it. You're not fooling anyone.
January 31, 200817 yr you may be over simplifying things on the cost side rando. It's a lot harder to post a profit for these ventures than you make it out to be.
January 31, 200817 yr ^Obviously it is a simplification, but the point is that this project is not some money-pit that poses no chance at profitability. If Eagle were a company willing to just move forward, with a project, and not dwindle over every last penny we could probably have this project nearing completion by now. But no, they have argued over a 1% difference in financing for the past few years now. Money is time, and Eagle is good at sqaundering it.
January 31, 200817 yr Way to go, Milt! Those in the industry know that "last, best and final" is strong language, and to demand it under such a short time frame is effectively death to the deal. It's about time the city dumped Eagle. I've got news for you - Eagle isn't the big dog everyone thinks they are. Though they operate under W & S, they don't carry the clout or the capability they should. This project belongs in the hands of a Neyer, Corporex (oh please, no!) or an out-of-towner. Milt's got the idea - move on!
February 1, 200817 yr This is the creme de le creme of downtown real estate. This is a downtown game changer so if Eagle can't do it, if they can't man up then let them walk.
February 1, 200817 yr I dont understand why the city didn't foresee this happening and start shopping for other developers to help put pressure on Eagle. Was there something in the contract about city doing that type of thing?
February 1, 200817 yr There are two models of development in the City right now. One is the give developers exclusive rights and cash, see what happens. This is the model that has produced the Banks and the Fifth and Race Towers. Then there is the second model: make a public investment and allow development to follow. This was the model that has revitalized the fountain square district and led to new restaurants, bars, and investments in the city. A bit off topic, but I ask you, what shall we do with the remaining TIF money, build a streetcar and have investment rally along the line, or give the money and exclusive rights to individual developers and hope they don't hold us hostage for millions of additional dollars? I prefer the former.
February 1, 200817 yr RIP Fifth and Race BY LISA BERNARD-KUHN | [email protected] Eagle Realty Group is putting to rest its plans for a 22-story, $100 million condo tower at the corner of Fifth and Race streets. After more than a decade of failed proposals, Eagle president Mario San Marco confirmed today that the latest proposal for the site – which would have delivered upwards of 250 condos, a grocery store and new parking to downtown – was being taken off the books. The deal breaker, according to Eagle, was the city’s refusal to cover an estimated $3.8 million funding gap needed to get the project off the ground. “Cincinnati lost a great opportunity to add to the positive momentum of downtown development,” San Marco said in a written statement to The Enquirer. Read full article here: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080201/BIZ01/302010125
February 2, 200817 yr ^ Me too. Throwing money at developers and continually granting extenstions just reeks of desperation. I like that the city took a stand on this and basically said, "we had an agreement, and we're not altering it". There's enough positive momentum downtown right now to keep this from being a total loss anyway. I just hope they get another developer lined up soon.
February 2, 200817 yr There are two models of development in the City right now. One is the give developers exclusive rights and cash, see what happens. This is the model that has produced the Banks and the Fifth and Race Towers. Then there is the second model: make a public investment and allow development to follow. This was the model that has revitalized the fountain square district and led to new restaurants, bars, and investments in the city. A bit off topic, but I ask you, what shall we do with the remaining TIF money, build a streetcar and have investment rally along the line, or give the money and exclusive rights to individual developers and hope they don't hold us hostage for millions of additional dollars? I prefer the former.
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