The point is, even those of us who want to live in urban areas often cannot because those areas aren't livable. As for other people, how many of the reasons why they moved out of the city (want of a larger and newer home, crime, bad schools etc) were created by sprawl and its correllated disinvestment in the city? I don't doubt that many people want a larger piece of land and more quiet, but how many just wanted a newly built, bigger home but couldn't get one in the city because it had already been built-out? Cleveland was like that until the 1980s, but the damage had already been done (thereby creating the open spaces that used to be found only at the urban fringe).

 

So how many of us urbanites, who want to move back into the city, are willing to move into an area that had been so thoroughly damaged by sprawl so as to create open land for new housing? Probably not many, and the responses in this string seem to show that. This is the housing market issue that often gets ignored by the so-called "free marketeers" who claim smart growth isn't something people want, when the housing surveys show the exact opposite.

 

KJP

A co-worker of mine is selling his home in a western outer-ring 'burb and moving to a condo downtown. He's sick of the maintenance, the commute, etc. Then again, why any single gay man needs a 3,000 sq. ft. McMansion in the first place is beyond me.

 

"So how many of us urbanites, who want to move back into the city, are willing to move into an area that had been so thoroughly damaged by sprawl so as to create open land for new housing"

 

That's a good question but I'm spoiled to my (our) neighborhood - I couldn't and wouldn't live in an area like Glenville or Quincy.

A-TOWN BABY!

 

Amherst - 30 miles west of Cleveland

in a newer 2500 square foot, 4 bedroom home on about a quarter of an acre.  Im lovin life in the burbs

 

 

My house was built in 1880 and is located in the Mt Auburn Prospect Hill Neighborhood of Cincinnati

I would say, KJP, that it is true that more people would rather move out of the city into the burbs then live in the burbs and move to the city (as evidenced by actual population shifts). Since this is an urban site, we probably don't represent the norm when it comes to this issue.

 

We are of a newer generation.  You might still see the shift for a few years because some people are still attached to their parents who live in a bubble.  You also have an entire generation of people that have lived in the burbs their whole life.  It is what they know, and it will be hard to break them of that desire.

I'm happy living where I am, in Evendale (suburban cincy).  I think it would be cool to live downtown maybe after college or something but i really wouldnt want to grow up down there...no yard, no nieghborhood feel, no bike or any of that stuff.

Not all city living is highrise.  Many people have single family homes in St. Ann Commons, Mt. Adams, Mt. Auburn, Fairview and have parks walking distance and the city is usually very walkable and pedestrian friendly so you can ride a bike with no problem.  I wouldn't need a yard if I had endless fields to place on, in Ault, Alms, Eden, Washington Parks.  Plus stick ball isn't fun unless you are playing it on a city street.  You are more than welcome to live in the burbs and enjoy it but the view you have of city life is narrow minded.  Plus, I personally don't enjoy taking up a Saturday morning to mow my yard and pull weeds. 

no yard, no nieghborhood feel, no bike or any of that stuff

.

I have a yard.  More neighborhood feel than any other place I have ever lived. Enjoy walking to everything downtown ,up to Mt Adams , Newport. biking, motorcycle, bus line a half block away. Mt Auburn is the ultimate place for burbanites who still want a yard but want to live close to the core :-D

no yard, no nieghborhood feel, no bike or any of that stuff.

 

I find there's a better neighborhood feel in urban neighborhoods like the Gold Coast, Little Italy, Ohio City etc etc. I know the first and last names of all my neighbors, can walk to everything in 15 minutes or less (see my post in this section) and I never have to shovel the snow or mow the lawn at my condo. There are sidewalk cafes for impromtu social meets, a wide variety of people and cultures, plus more varied architecture. And, it's safer to bike on side streets in the urban grid than on those wide suburban roads with so much traffic, seas of parking lots, cul de sacs and separated land uses.

 

Actually, I'm surprised there are some here who are so devoted to suburbs (OK, I understand the old inner-ring suburbs but not the exurban homogeny) given this forum's name and content. I even understand having your home in the suburbs while keeping your heart in the city, but not both in the suburbs, and still want to visit this site. That would be like me being a frequent visitor to the farm bureau forum (is there one?).

 

Can someone explain this to me?

 

KJP

wait, there's a neighborhood feel in the gold coast?

 

note: i haven't spent much time there, but usually i park my car in my friends "visitor" spot and hang out upstairs.........

I just wouldn't want to grow up in a real downtown setting.  I didn't say i wouldnt ever like to live there eventually but as far as growing up, I think that the suburbs just offer more options for kids.  New recreation centers (monte can tell you about Masons Im sure), close and easy access to downtown, less crime, better schools...etc.  I am not saying I love everything about the burbs, nor do I live in sprawlville, I'm just saying that the suburbs offer a better environment for growing up than the urban core does.

"I think that the suburbs just offer more options for kids."

 

That is a loaded comment.  It is all relative.  While the burbs offer more to suburban people, they don't for urban minded people.  They lack many cultural institutions that urbanites desire in a community and just because people are 20 minutes down the road doesn't mean that they will use them.  I know many people that never go into the city besides the typical Reds, Bengal’s game.  Suburbia is also homogeneous; it creates an environment that is of the same background and skin color which becomes a breeding ground for prejudices to develop.  While some of the community centers are great, there are YMCA's in almost every city in the country so this is nothing new, maybe except for the fancy water slide that no one uses.  I will also mention that Mason has still not made a profit on their community center yet and they just raised the rates.

 

There are pockets of high crime, but the media also sensationalizes allot of it.  You know the city of Cincinnati has 51 neighborhoods so the generalization that the city has higher crime is misleading.  Neighborhoods like Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Clifton, Mt. Adams are safer than many inner burbs.  You are right that schools are better in most of suburbia.  I can't argue that one.  If I could I would be one step closer to living in the city.  At least the city has a wide array of private schools for people that can afford them or make sacrifices so they could send their kids there.

 

Living in the city doesn't automatically mean living downtown. Some of the near-downtown neighborhoods around downtown Cleveland have, in some respects, more to offer in urban living than downtown does (ie: full size grocery stores, yards, private schools and more quiet).

 

And, when I think Gold Coast, I think of the area north of Clifton and east to maybe a block or two east of West 117th Street that includes the business district. A neighborhood can be comprised of 30-story high rises or one-story bungalows, as long as there's a diversity of land uses and a vibrancy that results.

 

KJP

While I don't necessarily agree that suburbs have more to options for kids, I don't see that there is any big advantage to a city for kids, at least in terms of what they want.  What's actually good for them may be a different story- as already mentioned, the lack of diversity can be a Bad Thing™.  And, of course, kids often can't do a whole lot on their own without being driven somewhere.  I have lived in suburbia all my life, and as child I never felt like I was missing out on much.  At present I don't have much dislike for life in the suburbs as I have experienced it, but I don't feel particularly devoted to it either.  The one thing that is starting to annoy me the most is having to drive everywhere; I've never lived within walking distance of anything but other houses and, in Hawaii, a recreation center (not counting my current college years, in which I can walk to some stuff).  The more far-flung sprawl is beginning to aggravate me, too.  I am prepared to raze everything in southern Delaware County and force all the residents there into Columbus.  I find most of that area very unpleasant to be in.

^ As a teen, you rarely see the advantage to living in the city as opposed to living in the suburbs--until your car breaks down for a few days.

no yard, no nieghborhood feel, no bike or any of that stuff.

 

I find there's a better neighborhood feel in urban neighborhoods like the Gold Coast, Little Italy, Ohio City etc etc. I know the first and last names of all my neighbors, can walk to everything in 15 minutes or less (see my post in this section) and I never have to shovel the snow or mow the lawn at my condo. There are sidewalk cafes for impromtu social meets, a wide variety of people and cultures, plus more varied architecture. And, it's safer to bike on side streets in the urban grid than on those wide suburban roads with so much traffic, seas of parking lots, cul de sacs and separated land uses.

 

Actually, I'm surprised there are some here who are so devoted to suburbs (OK, I understand the old inner-ring suburbs but not the exurban homogeny) given this forum's name and content. I even understand having your home in the suburbs while keeping your heart in the city, but not both in the suburbs, and still want to visit this site. That would be like me being a frequent visitor to the farm bureau forum (is there one?).

 

Can someone explain this to me?

 

KJP

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

Given my drothers, I prefer a town house or garden apartment so that I don't have anyone living above or below me.

And a yard just gives you a buffer from your neighbors, both good and bad.

Yeah, I understand different values, but I'm surprised to find them here, of all places. There are options for an urban dweller seeking a yard and a little space, especially if they live in a single family home next to or near a park.

 

It was not my intention when I moved here, but I now know that if I ever move to another apartment-style condominium, I will ask what the walls and floors are structurally made of. Turns out my building's walls and floors are reinforced concrete, and I can't hear a thing from my neighbors (except when my windows are open in the spring and summer!).

 

Some people in my building have wood flooring overlaid on the concrete, or plaster or wood-paneling on the walls. I have wall-to-wall carpeting, with tile only in the kitchen and bathrooms. I turn up my music or theater-sound television loud sometimes and never got a complaint. So, it seems my neighbors can't hear me either.

 

KJP

I think one aspect of city living that has been lost upon the generations that have grown up in the burbs (incl. myself) is the social aspect that a couple posters have mentioned above.  Actually knowing your neighbors, because you don't have a half acre to retreat into so you have to walk your dog, walk to the park, etc. and see your fellow human beings along the way. Stopping to talk... Getting to know them and hanging out at their place and meeting their friends.  It doesn't happen in the burbs. The spontaneity, the excitement just isn't there.

I have to disagree with your post Kendall... I grew up in the suburbs (Fairfield) and in both the neighborhoods my family lived in, we had good neighbors.  Especially on the street we lived on first, for 10 years - there was a big block party every summer that a lot of people got involved in, and people did get to know each other, and would chat when going for evening walks or doing yard work.  It's not just a matter of meeting people on the way in or out of a building; neighbors meet in the grocery store or around town doing errands.  I know we used to run into the family across the street from us almost literally every time we went to Kroger!

 

I think a lot of it did hinge on the families with kids, though, because of the schools' functions and kids in the neighborhoods bringing the parents together.  And it also depends on the personalities of the neighbors.  Maybe we were just lucky to have very friendly ones.

 

Maybe in these new cookie-cutter developments that are springing up everywhere, this neighborliness doesn't happen because everyone is moving in virtually at once, so there is no sense of the older, more established neighbors welcoming the newcomers into the neighborhood.

^ My suburban experience has been remarkably similar.  Even tonight, in fact, there will be a neighborhood progressive dinner in which everyone will get together.  For the most part, neighbors know one another and are friendly with one another.  Of course, true to suburban nature, when we have a neighborhood function some people will actually drive to the house where it's being held!  (A maximum distance of about 1/3 mile)

 

The exception for me was when I lived in Hawaii.  For some reason there was no neighborliness where we lived.

That is all hit and miss.  But I guess in reality that can be anywhere including the city.  When we lived in the burbs of St. Louis, people never came out to socialize.  We are fortunate in the neighborhood we live in now to have great neighbors.  Drink some brews, play cornhole in the summer - good times...

 

 

That is a loaded comment. It is all relative. While the burbs offer more to suburban people, they don't for urban minded people. They lack many cultural institutions that urbanites desire in a community and just because people are 20 minutes down the road doesn't mean that they will use them. I know many people that never go into the city besides the typical Reds, Bengal’s game. Suburbia is also homogeneous; it creates an environment that is of the same background and skin color which becomes a breeding ground for prejudices to develop. While some of the community centers are great, there are YMCA's in almost every city in the country so this is nothing new, maybe except for the fancy water slide that no one uses. I will also mention that Mason has still not made a profit on their community center yet and they just raised the rates.

 

There are pockets of high crime, but the media also sensationalizes allot of it. You know the city of Cincinnati has 51 neighborhoods so the generalization that the city has higher crime is misleading. Neighborhoods like Hyde Park, Mt. Lookout, Clifton, Mt. Adams are safer than many inner burbs. You are right that schools are better in most of suburbia. I can't argue that one. If I could I would be one step closer to living in the city. At least the city has a wide array of private schools for people that can afford them or make sacrifices so they could send their kids there.

 

 

 

 

Well i have to just say that I was talking about downtown not Hyde Park and Mount Lookout.  Almost all my friends from school live in those hoods and it's really no different then where I live.  Same ammount of diversity, and cultural institutions.  I have jewish neighbors, black neighbors, asian neighbors, and white neighbors so I would say my neighborhood is as diverse or more then parts of Hyde Park.  The majority of cultural institutions are downtown which is, once again, not in the hoods you were suggesting provide a good environment to grow up in.  Princeton school district is one of the most diverse in the city and certainly more diverse than Cincinnati public schools.  There are many people who live in the burbs who frequent downtown for more than sporting events.  And one last thing....Monte you seem to be saying im wrong for believing that the burbs offer a better environment to grow up in than downtown, but i seem to remember you saying that you do not live in the city because of schools, crime, and instability in Citywest (also distance to job).  I'm not calling you out or anything, it just seems a bit...hypocritical?

No I don't live any further south because my job is in Dayton.  It is as simple as that.  I never said there weren't pockets of crime.  I agree that there is too much crime in the West End for my taste but it is slowly transforming with great housing being built and a more mixed income base community slowly moving in there.  As for schools, re-read the comment I wrote, I freaking agreed with you on that point.  I said I can't argue that one. 

 

I also never said you were wrong for having your opinion, I was merely exposing your suburban bias. 

"I think that the suburbs just offer more options for kids."

 

Well..maybe.  I did like the suburb I lived in in Louisville as it was surrounded by forests and hills and dead fields and free flowing creeks, some of it parkland, otherwise dead land, and there was a branch library within walking distance (which closed, unfortunatly).

 

So, I spent alot of time outdoors hiking and exploring this countryside. It was a real novelty coming from the flat urban world of Chicago.

 

Yet, this was sort of a unique experience, as most subdivisions where or are not like mine.

 

In terms of having things like playgrounds, ballfields, and even a swimming pool (not to mention school, church, and corner stores & Five & Dimes) within walking distance I think my old neighborhood in Chicago was OK.  Three parks and a pool within walking distance (this was an indoor pool, though).  I think the park district had things like crafts classes, swimming lessons, and such at the parks, too.

 

 

 

 

 

My wife and I live in the Shillito Lofts in Downtown Cincy... and love every minute of it! I used to drive to work in Kenwood and finally got a job downtown (5 minute walking distance). Now, I find myself only driving 2 or 3 times a week, if that. Now that we've been down here for a while we can't picture living anywhere else! As far as kids go... I'll figure that out then, but hopefully it might be a little more "family-friendly" down here. Actually there are 2 families that live here with kids (that I know of). Our plans for the future are to buy a condo downtown... maybe in the 4th street area or Over-the-Rhine. I meet people all of the time that want to purchase property in downtown, some older some younger. If Cincinnati will get a better public transportation system, then downtown will blow up. As far as "neighborhood get-togethers", Towne Properties usually throws parties once or twice a month for all of the downtown residents. If you don't know who Towne Properties are, they own quite a bit of property downtown and in Mt. Adams. If you want something to change, then you are going to have to take action... and I think we are doing our share by supporting downtown.

^ Good to hear!

Shillito Lofts in Downtown Cincy: I love how the Grand atrium was restored. What a great place to live! I went in there a few times on the downtown tour. The elevator is sweet too, all original.

My wife and I live in the Shillito Lofts in Downtown Cincy... and love every minute of it! I used to drive to work in Kenwood and finally got a job downtown (5 minute walking distance). Now, I find myself only driving 2 or 3 times a week, if that. Now that we've been down here for a while we can't picture living anywhere else! As far as kids go... I'll figure that out then, but hopefully it might be a little more "family-friendly" down here. Actually there are 2 families that live here with kids (that I know of). Our plans for the future are to buy a condo downtown... maybe in the 4th street area or Over-the-Rhine. I meet people all of the time that want to purchase property in downtown, some older some younger. If Cincinnati will get a better public transportation system, then downtown will blow up. As far as "neighborhood get-togethers", Towne Properties usually throws parties once or twice a month for all of the downtown residents. If you don't know who Towne Properties are, they own quite a bit of property downtown and in Mt. Adams. If you want something to change, then you are going to have to take action... and I think we are doing our share by supporting downtown.

 

Every city needs people like you.  Welcome to the forum.

southside pittsburgh. My house was built in 1900 according to the allegheny county website. It was rennovated in 2002 before I bought it in may 2004.

 

It's the farthest one to the right, next to the alley. I need a new awning. blegh.

^That's a terrific place! Great brickwork and woodwork! Are the ceiling designs on the first level plaster or painted tin? If they're plaster, they look to be in very good condition. I'm envious.

 

KJP

Aaron:  Great city house! Thanks for sharing the pics!

nice!! like the style of the house

I'm a little late in this thread. :)

 

I currently live in Fairview Park.  It's technically an inner-ring suburb in that it borders with Cleveland, but the Rocky River Valley kind of acts as a barrier between the two cities, so it doesn't really have the density and urban-ness the other inner-ring 'burbs have.  Not to mention the Riverside and Kamms neighborhoods of Cleveland are already fairly suburban, so it doesn't really help Fairview's situation.

 

Anyway, I live in a rented 1950's cookie-cutter brick bungelow near what I consider to be Fairview's "downtown" (W. 220th and Lorain).  Most basic amenities are within a five-minute-or-less walk of me.  The streets here are walkable, and development along Lorain is actually fairly dense, especially between W.210 and 215th, but some areas could use some infill.

^That's a terrific place! Great brickwork and woodwork! Are the ceiling designs on the first level plaster or painted tin? If they're plaster, they look to be in very good condition. I'm envious.

 

KJP

 

They're painted tin. Most of the old ceilings down in the southside are tin. Mine are new tin however. Still have some unpainted stuff down in the basement. :-) Thanks guys...I love showing off my house, especially to people who don't have much clue about urban living. It makes them think twice.

Yes indeed, Aaron - you have a beautiful house! :clap:

 

Referencing the pope's question about Edgewater/Clifton:

 

From cleveland.com

 

Clifton/W. 117th St. area has a neighborhood feel about it

 

Monday, February 14, 2005

 

Kim Palmer

Special to The Plain Dealer

 

At the border of Cleveland, just a few blocks west of where the Shoreway deposits drivers onto the edge of Lakewood, is one of the most idiosyncratic shopping districts in the city.

 

More at cleveland.com

Great article.  The Clifton/W.117th intersection is definately an underrated and little known part of town.  I guess its reputation as a "gay" neighborhood scares people away.

 

IMO, the whole area from the Gold Coast to the Clifton/Baltic intersection doesn't really feel like it's part of two seperate cities, but rather, it's a city of its own.

My friend used to live on Clifton just west of W. 117th.  It was a pretty nice area, I agree.

Ill chip in.

 

I live in a 1920's detached Sngle Family house in Pleasant Ridge.  If you know pleasant ridge, you know it's the former 'Burbs, so it has some suburban amenities like green spaces, a good community center, and front/back yards.  I even have a detached garage.  At the same time, its got some urban amenities like sidewalks, 3 pubs in walking distance.  A chili shop, coffee shop and a UDF ann a block away.  Its hilly too so it feels a lot different than say, Oakley.  This is my first time living outside of the "urban core" of a city since I was 18, so I'm adjusting.  Looking for the spring shen the green looks more green and I hopefully get to interact with my neighbors.  here's a pic.

 

Pleasant Ridge is a fantastic area...of all the neighborhoods outside of walking distance to downtown, I think the only two I'd seriously consider would be Pleasant Ridge and the gaslight area of Clifton.  The hills make an area beautiful, and the central business district makes it interesting...plus you've got the Ridge Market and a UDF...I'd imaging those together aren't sufficient for all your grocery needs, but it would take care of a lot of them...

Pleasant Ridge is a fantastic area...of all the neighborhoods outside of walking distance to downtown, I think the only two I'd seriously consider would be Pleasant Ridge and the gaslight area of Clifton. The hills make an area beautiful, and the central business district makes it interesting...plus you've got the Ridge Market and a UDF...I'd imaging those together aren't sufficient for all your grocery needs, but it would take care of a lot of them...

 

we love the gaslight area, but the houses are a good 50% more for similar size/quality.  we actually put a bid in on a place there over the summer but we didnt get it.  we're kind of glad since it needed work and we have learned we're not too good at that stuff.  PR is cool.  I think its a good area if you have a dog or like to get out and move around a bit...we've been here since Nov, so we havent done any of that yet.  bring the warm.

bring the warm.

 

A-f'ing-men...these almost-warm-enough weekends are killing me...can't wait for warm weather...

Nice looking place, big_c!

Nice looking place, big_c!

 

Thanks grasscat.  We think It looks much better on the inside.  the outside is eh...

 

maybe we'll have to host somehting this summer.

Well, it looks like it is time to update my information.  I have moved out of my apartment in Patterson Park and am now a homeowner in the Linden Heights neighborhood in Dayton.  Purchased a brick 1920’s home practically right across the street from St. Anthony Church.  The church and school are very much the cornerstone of the area.  There is a UDF, a library, and a park within walking distance, but seemingly little else to speak of.  I also really like the fact that the street is still brick.

 

Although the house has a nice deck in the back, the front porch has been my favorite part of the house.  It has been fun to just sit on the porch and get to know the neighbors and those going for their evening walks.  People love to stop and chat, but maybe its just so they can all gossip about the “newbies” on the block.  Nonetheless, it’s nice to get to know those in the neighborhood.

 

It is a very quiet neighborhood.  Everyone has been very nice and welcoming, but I do feel a little bit like an outsider.  One of my neighbors has lived in his house since he was 2—he is now almost 50.  Several other neighbors’ houses have been in the same family since being built.  Another neighbor has live in their house for quite some time and two of their daughters have both purchased homes across the street.  Yet, as I said, everyone has been very friendly.

 

Here's a pic...sorry about the quality, its from the MLS

 

I currently live in the Merriman Valley neigborhood of Akron.  I reside in a decent sized 3 bedroom apartment; 3 levels, family room and living room, 2 car garage, overlooking the valley.  I yearn for my own house, but this will do for now. :-D

I live in the lovely township of Colerain in Hamilton County, Ohio, and about 500 feet from Green Township. I can get to the dysfunctional (road-wise)area known as Harrison / Rybolt in about 3 minutes, and I can make to 74. 275 or SR126 in no longer than 5 minutes. I live on top the Taylor Creek Valley, and at the top of my driveway I can hear the noises of I-74 in the valley below. I only wish I could see the highway from the house, as the interstates made me interested in my field of study, transportation engineering. My house is a lovely late 70s ranch, and I live in with my parents and five brothers, which allows me not to spend money on utilities, rent, food, or internet. I love where I live, as I can get to any major road fairly quickly from where I live, and it does not take that long to get to either Miami Whitewater or Winton Woods, which have nice paths to run, and excellent frisbee golf courses.

A timely resurrection of this thread!

 

I've moved to Madison, Wisconsin for graduate school and am on the 5th floor of a 6-story apartment building (built in the 50s maybe?) close to lovely Lake Mendota in what I believe is called the Mansion Hill district, close to the downtown area and in walking distance of the UW campus.  The immediate area is a mix of old, large houses (hence the name), some smaller houses, some larger apartment buildings like this one, and even a couple decent-sized office buildings.  Nice tree-lined streets, pretty convenient to the various amenities of a college town... seems like a pretty nice place so far.  And while there are plenty of students around, this particular spot seems pretty quiet, so it just might be possible to actually sleep at night.

 

God willing, from this point forward, I will never have to mow a lawn again.  (I hate doing that so much!)  I think I need to live in a city. :-)

I'm in a suburb about 2500 miles on the westside of Cincinnati.

 

But I am in a suburb.

I'm in a suburb about 2500 miles on the westside of Cincinnati.

 

But I am in a suburb.

 

Where is that???