^ So do you just predict more decline, or what?

 

Delta claimed they would support CVG in their quest to bring in other carriers, basically saying they would not play the pricing game you mention (which they've done a lot in the past). Whether they would actually go through with it is an open question, but that's something they've promised recently.

 

You seem to be bullish on CLE, and I don't really see why CLE should perform better than CVG, other than less competition from nearby airports. I guess the O&D numbers are higher there, but I have a hard time seeing why that is necessarily the case.

 

They aren't playing a pricing game because they don;t have to.  Despite high fares (a good yield for DAL) and a decrease in service, the LCC's aren't breaking down the door to get in to to CVG.  This is becasue they already serve DAY and CMH.  If people are willing to drive to from CVG to DAY and CMH, why bother to open a station. 

 

i am more bullish on CLE.  Also, CLE DOES have competition from a nearby airport.  CAK is an LCC airport.  Air Tran and Frontier are the dominant carriers, plus DAL and US.  CAK in't just nearby, it's pratically in the suburbs.  Further, there is simply a greater demand for air travel in the CLE market and at a decent yield.  For all the talk about what an economically depressed are CLE is, the demand and yield for air service is high.

 

If the avg. yield were to decrease at CVG, DAL would pull back further.  CVG's O&D is small.  So a high yield is necessary to maintain frequency.  Even if the pax that travel to DAY and CMH are taken into account, the O&D wouldn't rise dramatically.  I think the amount of people who make that drive is overstated.  Alot of the decrease in the DAY O&D can be attributed to DAy itself.

Considering the size of the areas involved and the health of the economies, I'm not sure why CLE should be so much better than CVG.

Considering the size of the areas involved and the health of the economies, I'm not sure why CLE should be so much better than CVG.

 

It's simply that the demand for air travel seems to greater in the CLE market as opposed to the CVG market.  Businesses/organizations/individuals from within and without use air travel more.  My guess is that even though CLE has its share of troubles, its still more of a business hub/O&D location than other areas.  Or to put it another way, CLE isn't really as nad as its portrayed in the media 

It's not just DAY and CMH pulling from CVG, it's also IND and SDF (and a little bit LEX).

 

People driving to DAY, IND, CMH is not overstated at all. Not one bit. It's been the rule for leisure travel, not the exception, for years. I also know of businesses fare-hunting in the region.

 

I respect that you are knowledgeable about airline operations and whatnot, but you don't understand the culture in Greater Cincinnati regarding air travel.

I always look at other airports to use first and hardly ever look at CVG, it has become a habit after so many years of outrageous prices. I know many business do this now as well. My dad works for P&G and they no longer only use CVG they shop around for cheaper flights.

 

It would be interesting to see how many people go to CMH,DAY,IND, and SDF from the Cincinnati metro area, I'm sure it is substantial. Having four international airports within 2 hours of downtown provides significant competition.

It's without question that Cincinnatians have been going to Dayton, Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville, and Lexington for decades.  Cleveland only has, what, Akron-Canton?  Maybe Pittsburgh?

It would be interesting to see how many people go to CMH,DAY,IND, and SDF from the Cincinnati metro area, I'm sure it is substantial. Having four international airports within 2 hours of downtown provides significant competition.

 

I've had to do this for business travel many times.  My favorite part was how the flight from Louisville would cost 2x-3x less than the flight from CVG, then connect TO CVG.  I can't tell you how frustrating it is to drive 4 hours (round trip), only to connect within a 10 minute drive of my house, all while wasting a seat that Delta might have been able to sell to someone else (or let an employee use).

^Toledo Express is 2 hours from downtown, but has little service.  Akron-Canton is ~35 miles and has good LCC service.  Pittsburgh is about 2 hours from Cleveland, but I have no idea what kind of patronage they get from the Cleveland area.  Throw Columbus in there I guess, as it's about 2.5 hours from downtown.

 

No doubt there are fewer options in Northeast Ohio mostly due to that damn lake!  No options to the north!

^Toledo Express is 2 hours from downtown, but has little service.  Akron-Canton is ~35 miles and has good LCC service.  Pittsburgh is about 2 hours from Cleveland, but I have no idea what kind of patronage they get from the Cleveland area.  Throw Columbus in there I guess, as it's about 2.5 hours from downtown.

 

No doubt there are fewer options in Northeast Ohio mostly due to that damn lake!  No options to the north!

 

No... it's price elasticity.  For whatever reason, Clevelanders are much more willing to spend money on air travel.  This doesn't mean that one is better than the other or that one is richer than the other.  It's also that a greater number of greater clevelanders fly for whatever reason and a greater number of people from without are going to cleveland.  If you are diving to IND or CMH to catch a flight because of price and you are doing it for business, that really shoots a hole in the wisdom that you need non-stop flights.

I'd add that DAY, CMH, Louisville, Indy couldn't support their O/D w/out Cincinnatians, particularly the LCCs.

I'd add that DAY, CMH, Louisville, Indy couldn't support their O/D w/out Cincinnatians, particularly the LCCs.

 

I would really be dubious of that.  There isn't that much siphoning-off of CVG that would substantially add to all of DAY, IND, SDF, CMH.  What you are saying is that CVG supports 4 or 5 airports beyond CVG. 

I'd add that DAY, CMH, Louisville, Indy couldn't support their O/D w/out Cincinnatians, particularly the LCCs.

 

I dont think you can say that without having revenue management information and to some degree Frequent Flyer information.

That may be true, but I think Cincinnatians have a decent sense that we have an airport that no one uses because they are driving many miles away from the airport to take a plane.

For whatever reason, Clevelanders are much more willing to spend money on air travel.

 

That reason is probably that the fares never got so outrageous (highest in the country!) that it spawned a travel-to-travel culture. Cincy was pushed well past a breaking point.

 

It's also that a greater number of greater clevelanders fly for whatever reason and a greater number of people from without are going to cleveland.

 

You can't claim this, because you don't know how many travelers are siphoned away from CVG to the five other local airports, due to the historically ginormous fares. Your mere intuition that this trend is overblown is not sufficient evidence.

 

If you are diving to IND or CMH to catch a flight because of price and you are doing it for business, that really shoots a hole in the wisdom that you need non-stop flights.

 

Probably, the ones driving away are not the ones needing non-stop flights. It's not like the business community is monolithic. Certainly, driving to a more distant airport is/was more common among leisure travelers, but it was almost unanimous in that case (unlike, I suppose, business travelers).

 

The fact is, all travelers have to weigh the price with convenience. Every traveler has his price at which it is deemed a better value to head to a competing airport. That choice comes especially easily when you're faced with the highest fares in the country, and there are no less than five other airports within a two hour drive from your house.

 

It's not a coincidence that every Cincinnatian on here is telling you they go to these other airports. I don't know what it would take to convince you that a huge percentage of CVG's O&D is going to these other places. Or that this wouldn't be the case without the history of Delta fares.

 

Delta made the hub bigger than the local market could sustain, with a prime factor being the large amount of competition within a relatively short drive.

For whatever reason, Clevelanders are much more willing to spend money on air travel.

 

That reason is probably that the fares never got so outrageous (highest in the country!) that it spawned a travel-to-travel culture. Cincy was pushed well past a breaking point.

 

It's also that a greater number of greater clevelanders fly for whatever reason and a greater number of people from without are going to cleveland.

 

You can't claim this, because you don't know how many travelers are siphoned away from CVG to the five other local airports, due to the historically ginormous fares. Your mere intuition that this trend is overblown is not sufficient evidence.

 

If you are diving to IND or CMH to catch a flight because of price and you are doing it for business, that really shoots a hole in the wisdom that you need non-stop flights.

 

Probably, the ones driving away are not the ones needing non-stop flights. It's not like the business community is monolithic. Certainly, driving to a more distant airport is/was more common among leisure travelers, but it was almost unanimous in that case (unlike, I suppose, business travelers).

 

The fact is, all travelers have to weigh the price with convenience. Every traveler has his price at which it is deemed a better value to head to a competing airport. That choice comes especially easily when you're faced with the highest fares in the country, and there are no less than five other airports within a two hour drive from your house.

 

It's not a coincidence that every Cincinnatian on here is telling you they go to these other airports. I don't know what it would take to convince you that a huge percentage of CVG's O&D is going to these other places. Or that this wouldn't be the case without the history of Delta fares.

 

Delta made the hub bigger than the local market could sustain, with a prime factor being the large amount of competition within a relatively short drive.

 

I stand by what I've written.  In economics, what I've been discussing is called elasticity of price.  The avg CVG fare is only $20.00 more than that of CLE.  And that's whats being discussed when it's said that CVG has the highest fares. Average fares! The avg CMH fare is ony $30.00 less than that of CVG.  But lets say that a particular fare is $100.00 different.  By the time you drive to CMH, pay for gas (and thats a round trip expense) then because you are flying DAL anyway, you are connecting back in CVG is the $100.00 savings worth it?  it looks like alot of people in CVG think so.

 

This is price elasticity.  Apparently the average CVG pax is more sensitive to price than the average CLE pax.  Not because they can't afford it but because it is what it is.  Call it a "regional" expectation. 

 

As far as people from CVG telling me that go to other airports, I still can't conclude that because they go means that enormous amounts of people from CVG go to other airports.  CVG is simply small O&D despite its relative metro size.  Thats why DAL has high fares at CVG.  One of the reasons that I don't beleive the number is that significant is because DAL make no effort to capture that market in its own back yard.  Also, if there is a big untapped local market, where are the other airlines?  I don't see anyome beating down the door to get in to CVG to enplane these people.

 

I'm done lol

I wonder how much geographic location of CVG plays into the travel-to-travel culture.  Most of the greater Cincinnati population that is utilizing CMH, IND, and DAY probably reside north of the Cross County Highway.  From Ronald Reagan it is a 25 minute drive to the airport according to google... but it could be much longer with Cincinnati's traffic (especially on I-75 and across the BS bridge).  I'm sure this travel time has something to due with people's willingness to shop around for their air travel. 

 

Comparing to Cleveland, CLE is literally surrounded on all sides by population centers and is served directly by both I-71 and I-480 with no real geographic bottlenecks on the way.  From Mentor (far East suburb) it's only 35 minutes to CLE. 

 

I wonder if things would be different if Cincinnati's airport were North of the river...

I wonder how much geographic location of CVG plays into the travel-to-travel culture. Most of the greater Cincinnati population that is utilizing CMH, IND, and DAY probably reside north of the Cross County Highway. From Ronald Reagan it is a 25 minute drive to the airport according to google... but it could be much longer with Cincinnati's traffic (especially on I-75 and across the BS bridge). I'm sure this travel time has something to due with people's willingness to shop around for their air travel.

 

Comparing to Cleveland, CLE is literally surrounded on all sides by population centers and is served directly by both I-71 and I-480 with no real geographic bottlenecks on the way. From Mentor (far East suburb) it's only 35 minutes to CLE.

 

I wonder if things would be different if Cincinnati's airport were North of the river...

 

You wrote "willingness to shop around for air travel".  This is exactly what price elasticity means.  Thanks.

I haven't seen one link to support your argument.

I haven't seen one link to support your argument.

 

If you are referring to me, the anecdotal evidence speaks for itself. 

I don't know if any other thread has as high of an acronymn to post ratio

I haven't seen one link to support your argument.

 

Because parts of O&D and Revenue Management and Yield Management information if proprietary.

 

However, how each air carrier forms their system has been explained. There are many factors, some include (from my own notes): 

• OD crossing traffic
  
• surrounding flights in the market
  
• seasonal patterns
  
• recent flight bookings
  
• Current load factor
  
• Future market bookings/Forecasted Load factor (These mean two different things but I can't remember what they are at the moment)
  
• Fare basis codes
  
• Actual revenue
  
• Revenue per available seat mi/km
  

 

I've been to many airline meetings since our product is purchased by them and I need to see how many sets of eyes will view our products.

 

Example. ATL has phenomanal connecting traffic, but it's O&D is small for a city it's size.

 

As far as people from CVG telling me that go to other airports, I still can't conclude that because they go means that enormous amounts of people from CVG go to other airports.  CVG is simply small O&D despite its relative metro size.  Thats why DAL has high fares at CVG.  One of the reasons that I don't beleive the number is that significant is because DAL make no effort to capture that market in its own back yard.  Also, if there is a big untapped local market, where are the other airlines?  I don't see anyome beating down the door to get in to CVG to enplane these people.

 

I'm done lol

 

You have no basis to conclude that Cincinnatians don't go to surrounding airports in massive numbers. When natives tell you its happening you choose to simply ignore it, and I find that astonishing. I would even venture to say the majority of people I know depart from surrounding airports a majority of the time. I myself have flown out of other airports for 90% of my flights. And as I have previously mentioned, Fortune 500 companies and other businesses have been forced to search for cheaper flights elsewhere due to the price gouging at CVG. If you choose to ignore the facts that is your choice, but your assumptions about the habits of air travelers in the greater Cincinnati area has no foundation.

As far as people from CVG telling me that go to other airports, I still can't conclude that because they go means that enormous amounts of people from CVG go to other airports.  CVG is simply small O&D despite its relative metro size.  Thats why DAL has high fares at CVG.  One of the reasons that I don't beleive the number is that significant is because DAL make no effort to capture that market in its own back yard.  Also, if there is a big untapped local market, where are the other airlines?  I don't see anyome beating down the door to get in to CVG to enplane these people.

 

I'm done lol

 

You have no basis to conclude that Cincinnatians don't go to surrounding airports in massive numbers. When natives tell you its happening you choose to simply ignore it, and I find that astonishing. I would even venture to say the majority of people I know depart from surrounding airports a majority of the time. I myself have flown out of other airports for 90% of my flights. And as I have previously mentioned, Fortune 500 companies and other businesses have been forced to search for cheaper flights elsewhere due to the price gouging at CVG. If you choose to ignore the facts that is your choice, but your assumptions about the habits of air travelers in the greater Cincinnati area has no foundation.

 

It has a lot of foundation.  I'm not ignoring facts.  I'm not making assumptions.  If you drive to another airport - and an airport thats not even really close like CMH - you are price inelastic plain and simple.  And again I reiterate that if there are so many people going to other airports, why haven't other airlines tried to capture that market?  It's because it really doesn't exist in a number thats great enough and at an decent enough yield to justify opening a station.  The other airlines are happy enough to capture the siphoned pax at other stations such DAY and to a lesser extent CMH and others without the added fixed costs of a station at CVG.  If fortune 500 companies are really sending people to other airports then again it debunks the conventional wisdom that you need convenient non-stops to keep such companies local.  All this really boils down to is at what price is good air service too expensive.  And thats a relative price depending on the market. 

The avg CVG fare is only $20.00 more than that of CLE. And that's whats being discussed when it's said that CVG has the highest fares. Average fares! The avg CMH fare is ony $30.00 less than that of CVG. But lets say that a particular fare is $100.00 different. By the time you drive to CMH, pay for gas (and thats a round trip expense) then because you are flying DAL anyway, you are connecting back in CVG is the $100.00 savings worth it? it looks like alot of people in CVG think so.

 

It sounds like you are talking about current prices. The prices have gone down a lot, and I have flown in and out of CVG more in the past two years than probably the decade before that. But I am still in the habit of checking the other airports' prices before buying a ticket, simply because I'd been doing it for so long, due to historic prices, rather than current ones. If I had never been pushed into the habit of doing that, it may not even occur to me to look at the competition.

 

The culture is shifting, and the numbers show that. But looking at current prices and current O&D without taking the past into account is disingenuous. It won't give you an accurate picture.

 

As to why airlines do not work harder to tap the market: there's nothing saying airlines will act with optimal rationality. On the contrary, they seem to have a track record of terrible business decisions. Bankruptcy, mergers and buyouts, bankruptcy...

Apparently you don't live here. We know when we are getting gouged. You being an outsider would NEVER know.

The avg CVG fare is only $20.00 more than that of CLE.  And that's whats being discussed when it's said that CVG has the highest fares. Average fares! The avg CMH fare is ony $30.00 less than that of CVG.  But lets say that a particular fare is $100.00 different.  By the time you drive to CMH, pay for gas (and thats a round trip expense) then because you are flying DAL anyway, you are connecting back in CVG is the $100.00 savings worth it?  it looks like alot of people in CVG think so.

 

It sounds like you are talking about current prices. The prices have gone down a lot, and I have flown in and out of CVG more in the past two years than probably the decade before that. But I am still in the habit of checking the other airports' prices before buying a ticket, simply because I'd been doing it for so long, due to historic prices, rather than current ones. If I had never been pushed into the habit of doing that, it may not even occur to me to look at the competition.

 

The culture is shifting, and the numbers show that. But looking at current prices and current O&D without taking the past into account is disingenuous. It won't give you an accurate picture.

 

As to why airlines do not work harder to tap the market: there's nothing saying airlines will act with optimal rationality. On the contrary, they seem to have a track record of terrible business decisions. Bankruptcy, mergers and buyouts, bankruptcy...

 

I stand by my statement that airlines havent come to CVG because the yield of the pax driving to other cities does not warrant a station.

 

As far as past numbers are concerned, of course there is an improvement recently.  The economy has improved.

 

Anyway kids, I'm done belaboring the points.  I've done yield management for a major line (not delta) before I started flying for a living. 

As far as past numbers are concerned, of course there is an improvement recently.  The economy has improved.

:roll:

 

The highest improvement anywhere has been at CVG. That is not about the economy!

 

The local behavior is shifting, but cultural changes don't happen overnight.

I don't even remember what we're arguing about anymore.  That's the sign of a truly good discussion.

 

The local behavior is shifting, but cultural changes don't happen overnight.

 

What do you think CVG's O&D numbers would be had Delta never gouged CVG users?  Would this be enough to sustain Delta's current level of service?  If Delta were to close the CVG hub would it really impact the Cincinnati community to any great extent?  Could the closing of a Delta hub be a boon to CVG's O&D numbers due to decreased costs from increased competition? 

 

I would think that if CVG were to lose it's hub status it would have a huge impact on DAY as prices should come down to a level that make people in northern Cincinnati reconsider CVG as an option.

I don't know what the numbers would be, but I definitely believe they would be higher.

 

Do we know the current level of service is not being maintained? I guess that is probably the case. Why would we suspect the most current cuts will be the last?

 

I think all I am arguing is that historical costs and geography (i.e. nearby airports) have disposed Cincinnatians to make certain decisions regarding air travel. I take the position that you cannot make the claim that Cincinnatians should be expected to behave differently from similarly sized regions, sans effects caused by their unique situation.

 

I further hold that, were airlines to fully take into account the causes of Cincinnatians' current behaviors, they could mold CVG into a more successful airport. I also think it will take time to make these changes, because travel-to-travel has become part of the culture.

 

I disagree with the idea that an insignificant amount of CVG's potential O&D is siphoned off by nearby airports. I disagree with the decisive claim that CLE (or another airport in a similarly sized region) would experience a different fate (i.e. not suffer from a travel-to-travel culture), were it exposed to years of uber-high fares combined with five competitors within a two-hour drive.

I don't know what the numbers would be, but I definitely believe they would be higher.

 

Do we know the current level of service is not being maintained? I guess that is probably the case. Why would we suspect the most current cuts will be the last?

 

I think all I am arguing is that historical costs and geography (i.e. nearby airports) have disposed Cincinnatians to make certain decisions regarding air travel. I take the position that you cannot make the claim that Cincinnatians should be expected to behave differently from similarly sized regions, sans effects caused by their unique situation.

 

I further hold that, were airlines to fully take into account the causes of Cincinnatians' current behaviors, they could mold CVG into a more successful airport. I also think it will take time to make these changes, because travel-to-travel has become part of the culture.

 

I disagree with the idea that an insignificant amount of CVG's potential O&D is siphoned off by nearby airports. I disagree with the decisive claim that CLE (or another airport in a similarly sized region) would experience a different fate (i.e. not suffer from a travel-to-travel culture), were it exposed to years of uber-high fares combined with five competitors within a two-hour drive.

 

I said I wouldnt comment anymore, but I will on your last paragraph.  First of all, the avg airfare from CVG, while high, is not that disproportionally higher than other airports.  It never was.  It simply means that more fares are higher accross the board.  Secondly different cities will experience a different fate.  CLE's airfares are not exactly low.  The SWA fares from CLE are not that low even though SWA is an LCC.  I've said and will continue to say that CLE has a greater appetite for air service than does CVG.  And for that matter, CVG has a greater appetitite than CMH. 

Amazing someone thinks CVG fairs are not all that high.. Simply amazing.

Amazing someone thinks CVG fairs are not all that high.. Simply amazing.

 

They aren't compared to data.

 

You guys are using perception to answer, but dont have revenue or yield manangement information or previous airline experience.

 

The airlines do check and balances, and I have to agree from a marketing perspective, if CVG market was a hot ticket, why has no other air carrier moved in?

Yes, they have come down but are still routinely higher.

 

We may be using perception but it is a perception of residents who actually live there and have experienced it. Also, there is no evidence to say we are wrong in our perception that many Cincinnatians fly out of neighboring airports. The only evidence we have is our own experiences and that of our neighbors, and it seems pretty overwhelming to us natives.

 

Since John Mok took over as chief executive officer in 2009 he has actively tried to right the ship by bringing in other carriers. This is a tough job because of the stigma out there portrayed by outsiders, as this discussion has been a prime example. Other carriers in the past have chosen other surrounding airports to base out of due to Delta bullying the price of tickets. So until Delta started its mass exodus, no one has been approaching these airlines who had all given up on CVG due to Delta. As fares drop more local users will begin to use the airport, which is already happening, and Mok will have more ammunition to attract new airlines.

Apparently, DL, in its halcyon days at CVG, did not see the need to lower its "exorbitant" fares to induce the return of the "hordes" of Cincinnatians fleeing to nearby airports.  With their penchant for seeking low fares, these "hordes" would not be that attractive to a legacy carrier.  Other airlines would have had the opportunity to charge high fares too, but did not see it worth their while to challenge DL's dominance or coexist/compete with them in any big way.  The large hub at CVG, sans "hordes", was supposedly 70% connecting traffic.  Even if you add the "hordes" back, I'd bet it would still be over 50%.  If DL chooses to consolidate its connections elsewhere, such as Detroit, for economies of scale purposes, the decline in flights at CVG could be precipitous indeed.  I could see something Buffalo-esque after it's all said and done.  Pittsburgh and St Louis are larger metros.  Look at their current flight schedules.

Other carriers have come in, and they've always been undercut by Delta. Once those carriers pulled out, Delta's prices would go right back up. If you want to know why other carriers have not come in recently to pick up slack, your answer is probably right there.

 

As for the fares, I don't think they are very high currently. That's why I've been using CVG. But they used to be quite significantly higher than nearby airports. That's just an indisputable fact. If you don't think so, you obviously weren't searching for flights in and out of CVG during those years.

 

It would be nice if someone could supply some data for pricing in those peak years. I can't find any good stuff on Google, only this from 2009:

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29263420/ns/travel-business_travel/

 

It says CVG fares were the most expensive in the country, with an average per-mile travel cost of 48 cents. It doesn't say what the national average was, but the 25th most expensive airport had an average cost of 34 cents per mile. So CVG's per-mile cost was 41% higher than another airport which still made the "most expensive" list. I don't know what kind of data you guys want, but here are some numbers which back what some people are charging is merely anecdotal.

^I don't think anyone here is challenging the fact that CVG had the highest fares in the country at one time.  And it's obvious that Delta would undercut other carriers and push them out simply because they dominated the CVG market and could afford to do so.  With that fact on the table can't we agree that a reduce Delta presence at CVG will actually be a good thing?  While you may lose non-stop international travel, CVG will become a much better asset for the city of Cincinnati as it's price structure falls in line with what the market can bear.  And if you're flying to Europe or Asia is 1 layover really that big of a deal to the business and leisure travel community?

People aren't arguing the fares weren't highest, but they are arguing that the highest fares weren't actually significantly high. They seem to say Cincinnatians have more of a penchant to go bargain hunting in nearby cities, without saving much money while doing so. So the numbers I gave are relevant if you think per-mile fares are indicative of overall ticket costs. 41% higher fares than an airport which is considered to have high fares indicates, pretty clearly, a sharp contrast with average fares. Prices matter, and such a large difference pushes all kinds of people away. Not just Cincinnatians.

 

MTS was saying "well, why aren't other carriers coming in?" The answer is Delta's tactics.

 

I think it's yet to be seen if this turns out well or not. It's really all about how the business community reacts. Is the city less likely to attract major corporations now? Is it now harder to retain them?

 

For the average leisure traveler, it is better. I agree on that. As I said, I now use the airport somewhat regularly. I never did that before. So it's good for my travels, but if it means businesses are less likely to want to be in the city, the down-sizing is a disappointment.

 

Aside from potential damage to the business climate (which is up in the air), I think we agree, Hoot. But you seem to have a different take than MTS and MD88.

CVG  has to make sure it's the right airline that comes in. Or they could be facing something like this.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/06/12/airline.strike/index.html?hpt=T3

I said I wouldnt comment anymore, but I will on your last paragraph.  First of all, the avg airfare from CVG, while high, is not that disproportionally higher than other airports.  It never was.  It simply means that more fares are higher accross the board. 

 

Again, it appears that you never compared flight prices originating from CVG and say, Louisville, to the same destination prior to 2008.  The fares at CVG were typically 1.5x those of nearby airports, and frequently were several times as high. 

 

If you are diving to IND or CMH to catch a flight because of price and you are doing it for business, that really shoots a hole in the wisdom that you need non-stop flights.

 

Yeah, but I'm not a business owner and I don't don't have the luxury of choosing my own travel plans.  The travel department prices everything out, and tells me which airport to take.  Up until 2 years ago, that meant driving to other airports and catching a connecting flight back through CVG because the fares were so much cheaper.  Now it means flying out of CVG, but there are less direct flight options.

 

Delta cut fares at CVG simultaneously but independently of the problems the airlines have had over the last several years (I think that there is an even an article link about that somewhere in this thread).  Sure the fares have come down, but now there are less flights.  All anyone is saying is that it is difficult to get an accurate reading on demand at CVG because we had one problem before and a totally different problem now, both of which discouraged travelers from using CVG.

First of all, I'm curious as to why so many Clevelanders have such an interest in the Cincinnati airport.  Could it be that they are on the brink of losing their Continental hub, and feel the need to assert superiority over another Ohio city while they can? Hm, no...probably me just being cynical right? :roll:

 

As a personal anecdote, whenever I come home from LA, I usually fly into CVG only about half of the time.  With Columbus and Indy both having Southwest, it made no sense to pay an extra $200 to fly into CVG when I live on the north side of Cincinnati anyways. When going on trips elsewhere I have flown out of Dayton, Columbus, and Lexington, and when friends visit, I always tell them to check Dayton first, because it's really not that much further, and the fares are/were much, much cheaper.

 

As far as why Cleveland has so many more O & D passengers than Cincinnati, one can only assume it is due to Cincinnatians using other airports.  The Cincinnati MSA is larger than the Cleveland MSA. If you add in Akron and surrounding parts of Northwest Ohio, then greater Cleveland is a little larger, but you have one international airport, and Akron Canton, which has pretty limited operations.  In Greater Cincinnati, if you live on the far north side, you're closer to Dayton, far south side, close to Lexington or Louisville, far west and you're close to Indy, and far northeast and you're close to Columbus.  Including CVG, that is 6 international airports that the Cincinnati region can access quickly, compared to one for Cleveland.  Add that in with a history of extremely high fares, and it's pretty clear that the local market becomes diluted.

 

One final point.  I'm wondering what the impact of private flying is at different airports.  My dad works for P&G, and flies all the time, all over the world.  When he flies domestic though, he's usually on a private plane that takes off from Lunken.  I know P&G just recently built a big new hangar at Lunken to expand their private fleet, and I know several people that fly private jets from Lunken.  Does this have a significant impact on airports? I doubt it does, but just asking to see if anyone knows.

[*]I dont think anyone is playing the airport penis envy game

[*]MSA and airport "encatchment" area (I forget the aviation term) are completely different things.

[*]there may be more airpots in SW Ohio but like A/C airport how many are internation in operation?  Do those airports have non stop international flights?

[*]Private flying is limited at most companies.  We don't use our fleet very often.  They are only used when we're all going to the same place.  For instance we had a Sr. Executive Mtg. in Knoxville it was cheaper and more convient to use the corp. plane.  So I doubt it has any real impact.

First of all, my interest in personal.  I fly for the airline that CVG hates on lol.  Size of Metro area doesn't matter.  I don't think anybody really reads my threads.  I'm talking about the demand for air travel.  It IS greater in the CLE than CVG.  People from CVG DO use other airports.  So DO people from CLE.  DTW is not that much farther from CLE than CMH is from CVG.  The options out of DTW are much greater than CLE.  CAK also provides an alternative.  But calling CMH and IND "close" is not accurate. 

 

Some of the posting I have read on this thread would have one beleive that DAY, IND, CMH, SDF, LEX and so on wouldn't have any traffic if it weren't from CVG defections.  If there is so much demand, where are the other airlines?

 

Nobody is asserting superiority.  It is what it is.  Guess what?  CLT is smaller than both CVG and CLE, but it has a GREATER demand for air travel. 

DTW is not that much farther from CLE than CMH is from CVG. The options out of DTW are much greater than CLE. CAK also provides an alternative. But calling CMH and IND "close" is not accurate.  

 

Some of the posting I have read on this thread would have one beleive that DAY, IND, CMH, SDF, LEX and so on wouldn't have any traffic if it weren't from CVG defections. If there is so much demand, where are the other airlines?

 

 

 

But Cleveland fares were never the highest in the country! Cleveland has had southwest and other carriers for a long time, while there is really virtually no other airline at CVG, thus creating a need for people in Cincinnati to go elsewhere- a need that doesn't exist in Cleveland.

 

Columbus is an hour and a half from my house in Cincinnati to the airport, and I don't even live in the far north/northeast burbs.  From people in Warren County, the drive is just over an hour.  For people in Southeast Indiana, Indianapolis is only a little over an hour as well, so I definitely do think they are close for segments of the region.

 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that spillover traffic from CVG is what supports these other airports, of course that isn't the case, and I don't see anyone here implying that.  I do think it's clear that the spillover does exist, based not just on personal anecdote. If you look at the latest numbers that Cincy1 posted, there is a pretty dramatic decline in traffic at Dayton, and a roughly equal increase at CVG when CVG lowered their fares.  I am willing to admit that perhaps there are not as many departures and arrivals at CVG than CLE.  Cincinnati is more centrally located, and more places can be driven to, thus eliminating the need for a flight.  However, I don't think the raw numbers paint an accurate picture.

DTW is not that much farther from CLE than CMH is from CVG. The options out of DTW are much greater than CLE. CAK also provides an alternative. But calling CMH and IND "close" is not accurate.

 

Some of the posting I have read on this thread would have one beleive that DAY, IND, CMH, SDF, LEX and so on wouldn't have any traffic if it weren't from CVG defections. If there is so much demand, where are the other airlines?

 

 

 

But Cleveland fares were never the highest in the country! Cleveland has had southwest and other carriers for a long time, while there is really virtually no other airline at CVG, thus creating a need for people in Cincinnati to go elsewhere- a need that doesn't exist in Cleveland.

 

Columbus is an hour and a half from my house in Cincinnati to the airport, and I don't even live in the far north/northeast burbs. From people in Warren County, the drive is just over an hour. For people in Southeast Indiana, Indianapolis is only a little over an hour as well, so I definitely do think they are close for segments of the region.

 

I don't think anyone here is arguing that spillover traffic from CVG is what supports these other airports, of course that isn't the case, and I don't see anyone here implying that. I do think it's clear that the spillover does exist, based not just on personal anecdote. If you look at the latest numbers that Cincy1 posted, there is a pretty dramatic decline in traffic at Dayton, and a roughly equal increase at CVG when CVG lowered their fares. I am willing to admit that perhaps there are not as many departures and arrivals at CVG than CLE. Cincinnati is more centrally located, and more places can be driven to, thus eliminating the need for a flight. However, I don't think the raw numbers paint an accurate picture.

 

Yes, CVG's fare were the highest in the counry, BUT NOT DRAMATICALLY SO.  Yes, CLE has Southwest, but SWA's fares from CLE are not that dramacticaly low.  In fact, SWA is not that "cheap" of an airline. 

I guarantee you Cleveland's fairs have been DRAMATICALLY lower there then CVG the past 15 or so years. Im talking about a good 30%- 40% lower. If CLE had CVG fair the numbers would be FAR worse than it is now.

Question for all those "questioning" the numbers. 

 

How many of you understand airline operations and Revenue & Yeild management?

 

The reason I ask is someone who works at an airline and is familiar with that information is posting, yet some seem to think what is written is just opinion.

I guarantee you Cleveland's fairs have been DRAMATICALLY lower there then CVG the past 15 or so years. Im talking about a good 30%- 40% lower. If CLE had CVG fair the numbers would be FAR worse than it is now.

 

Ok, this is POSITIVELY my last post on this subject lol.  Yes, CVG had the highest fares, but the basis of that is AVERAGE FARES.  Now there is a tangent I could explore but that would open up a whole new can of worms.  That of course is affordability.  I won't touch that one lol.

 

It was mentioned above that "Clevelanders" seem to be overly interested in CVG.  Well, i used to be a Clevelander - 30 years ago.  I've probably been to CVG more than CLE over the past 25 years.  I'm not trying to slight the good people of CVG and its environs.  Your "high" airfares helped keep me fed. 

Question for all those "questioning" the numbers.

 

How many of you understand airline operations and Revenue & Yeild management?

 

The reason I ask is someone who works at an airline and is familiar with that information is posting, yet some seem to think what is written is just opinion.

If that is the case they are not listening to their customers. I know for a fact many people will not fly Delta for the simple fact of what they have done. Ignoring and not fixing problems on makes customers more pissed.

CVG's fare were the highest in the counry, BUT NOT DRAMATICALLY SO.

 

I supplied data to the contrary, so the least you can do is back this up. It seems to be the key point on which people disagree with you.

I think some people are just wondering what the market could be with normal conditions - after years of ridiculously high prices Delta has relatively recently lowered fares and begun to recapture some local market.  Q4 year over year they had a 265,000 increase while Dayton had a 125,000 decrease.  Is the drop at Dayton solely due to people going to CVG?  If all of the increase at CVG is due to the drop in fares can we assume since there was an increase of 140,000 more than the decrease at Dayton that 55% of the Cincy leakage goes to airports other than Dayton?  Is there more market leakage out there?

 

My opinion is that people will have a deep distrust of Delta for a long time and Cincy generally has below average O&D (moreso to leisure than business).  The only saving grace of the high prices was a convenient hub that supplied a lot of jobs.  Delta finally gives reasonable fares but they are greatly reducing the hub, causing a loss of jobs and less convenience.  To say Delta is an unpopular airline in Cincy is accurate.