November 14, 200816 yr What company can dictate the operations and management of another? Thats like AMC tell us what movies we can make and distribute. Ummm---Walmart.
November 14, 200816 yr What company can dictate the operations and management of another? Thats like AMC tell us what movies we can make and distribute. Ummm---Walmart. Umm nice try, but even they can't dictate the operations of another company - unless they buy it.
November 14, 200816 yr I would argue that Proctor & Gamble and Chiquita as global companies might impact Delta's decision on whether to keep a hub here. Kroger and Macy's--not so much. Delta also has a near monopoly situation at Cincy's airport. They are not losing any money in Cincinnati with the rates they charge. Anyhow, I think we just need to wait and see how the cards fall. There is too much going on in the business world right now that could impact decisions one way or another. There have been plenty of new state of the art airports that have lost hub status for one reason or another.
November 14, 200816 yr What company can dictate the operations and management of another? Thats like AMC tell us what movies we can make and distribute. Ummm---Walmart. Umm nice try, but even they can't dictate the operations of another company - unless they buy it. Actually, Walmart dictates all the time. They demand certain packaging from vendors all the time and they dictate pricing. Even when dealing with Procter & Gamble. Walmart is so large and moves so much product that companies can't say no.
November 14, 200816 yr What company can dictate the operations and management of another? Thats like AMC tell us what movies we can make and distribute. Ummm---Walmart. Umm nice try, but even they can't dictate the operations of another company - unless they buy it. Actually, Walmart dictates all the time. They demand certain packaging from vendors all the time and they dictate pricing. Even when dealing with Procter & Gamble. Walmart is so large and moves so much product that companies can't say no. NO... I deal with those hillbilly's on a regular basis. They can "suggest" and "package" product. yet cannot tell another company what to do, that damn near corporate espionage.
November 15, 200816 yr De Javu! Didn't we have this conversation like 5 times over the span of a decade? ;)
November 15, 200816 yr I personally do not see how Detroit could still be so valuable as a hub if the Big 3 fall. It is not just those jobs but all the industries that do business with them, and there would be a large, negative multiplier effect. Right now, I certainly do not like Cincinnati's position post NW merger, but I still do not think it is definitive that we are destined to lose the hub. Time will obviously tell. I actually would not want to see Detroit lose any piece of its hub, but am at least hoping to maintain here. And from the most recent numbers Detroit is about 4.5 million and trending down. 2004 4,505,536 0.2 8,105 59,546 38,617 11,685 -30,942 2005 4,503,947 0.0 -1,589 57,877 38,748 11,811 -38,646 2006 4,494,906 -0.2 -9,041 56,951 38,468 12,240 -46,461 2007 4,467,592 -0.6 -27,314 56,633 38,457 12,169 -58,017 Cincinnati, while only a little less than half the size, is at least trending up: 2004 2,084,740 0.9 17,768 29,571 17,711 2,244 -1,981 2005 2,103,108 0.9 18,368 29,433 17,855 2,248 -1,753 2006 2,121,128 0.9 18,020 29,695 17,950 2,346 -1,777 2007 2,133,678 0.6 12,550 30,011 18,042 2,316 -1,805
November 15, 200816 yr It's been on the chopping block every week since 9/11. The problem is more likely that some of the corporate customers are willing to pay the outrageous prices which allows Delta to keep it profitable with low input from the region. Toyota, Chiquita, and PG would seem to be drivers of growth more than the domestic folks.
November 15, 200816 yr While Detroit is obviously the sickest metro in the country and is terribly auto-dependent, there are a lot of other corporate headquarters. Way more than Cincy or any similar sized city. Just population alone dictates a far larger traffic base than Cincy. BTW: Airlines don't just care about the profitability of the route, it is about their company as a whole. If they can put that metal to work better elsewhere, they will.
November 15, 200816 yr I'm not taking anything away from any other airport, however The NW Worldgate is the newest and I would argue the best and most efficient terminal complex in the country. The Detroit terminals are no longer the newest complex. IND just this week opened an entire brand new terminal complex. It's not a hub operation by any means, so there's a bit of apples to oranges here, but it is newer. The jury is still out on functionality, but from what I've seen (and I've seen a lot), the new IND is the best all around terminal in America. It's not groundbreaking architecture, but it is very, very good. I have a lengthy seven part review on my blog with tons of photos if you are interested.
November 15, 200816 yr Most airlines won't be in business in 10 years. It will all be private. So having a hub does not mean there is a bright future. Things have changed since 2001.
November 15, 200816 yr While Detroit is obviously the sickest metro in the country and is terribly auto-dependent, there are a lot of other corporate headquarters. Way more than Cincy or any similar sized city. Just population alone dictates a far larger traffic base than Cincy. BTW: Airlines don't just care about the profitability of the route, it is about their company as a whole. If they can put that metal to work better elsewhere, they will. Examples? Cincinnati has more corporate HQs than most other cities its size, and several larger. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I'd be surprised if Detroit had a significantly higher number of HQs than Cincinnati (excluding the obvious "Big Three").
November 15, 200816 yr Here's a list of corporate HQ's in Michigan. Obviously they aren't all in Detroit, but most of the big ones are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_based_in_Michigan
November 15, 200816 yr But add in the other Fortune 500's in the Detroit METRO area and you get 16 (though nearly all are tied to the auto industry): GM Ford (Dearborn) GMAC Delphi (Troy) Lear (Southfield) TRW Auto Holdings (Livonia) Penske Auto Group (Bloomfield Hills) Visteon (Van Buren Twp) Masco (Taylor) DTE Energy Pulte Homes (Bloomfield Hills) Arvin Meritor (Troy) Federal Mogul (Southfield) Autoliv (Auburn Hills) Kelly Services (Troy) Borg Warner (Auburn Hills) http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/states/MI.html
November 15, 200816 yr Cincy's competition isn't DTW. It is Memphis. Memphis has nothing on Cincy. Hes speaking in regards to which hub will be closed. It's widely speculated that CVG & MEM will reduced to focus cities as they are to close to ATL and DTW. Minneapolis and St. Lake will also see reductions as delta is ramping up Los Angeles (TPAC traffic) and JFK (TATL traffic).
November 15, 200816 yr I'm not taking anything away from any other airport, however The NW Worldgate is the newest and I would argue the best and most efficient terminal complex in the country. The Detroit terminals are no longer the newest complex. IND just this week opened an entire brand new terminal complex. It's not a hub operation by any means, so there's a bit of apples to oranges here, but it is newer. The jury is still out on functionality, but from what I've seen (and I've seen a lot), the new IND is the best all around terminal in America. It's not groundbreaking architecture, but it is very, very good. I have a lengthy seven part review on my blog with tons of photos if you are interested. You cannot compare a domestic airport with an international gateway airport like DTW. I haven't personally been to the IND airport but I have been on a tour of the DTW terminal and form a function, operations and aesthetic it's one of the best in the world. I should have use the word "newer" instead of "newest".
November 15, 200816 yr Sounds like some of us should be rooting for the collapse of the auto industry. I don't understand Northern Ohio's fascination with Detroit anyway. They should be view as a competitor. I view them with indifference, but if the auto industry fails, a certain airport wouldn't look all the appealing a year from now.
November 15, 200816 yr Sounds like some of us should be rooting for the collapse of the auto industry. I don't understand Northern Ohio's fascination with Detroit anyway. They should be view as a competitor. I view them with indifference, but if the auto industry fails, a certain airport wouldn't look all the appealing a year from now. Nobody in NEOhio is "fascinated" by Detroit, with the exception of The Pope. Were discussing the merits of each airport amicably. So don't throw silly insults or try to start some shit!
November 16, 200816 yr It often sounds as if you want Cincy to lose it's hub, while on the discussion regarding Cleveland's airport, all you talk about is how you see it so primed for growth and more international flights, etc. Seems like you're more interested in Cleveland bragging rights than the health of CVG.
November 16, 200816 yr Cincy's competition isn't DTW. It is Memphis. Memphis has nothing on Cincy. Agreed. As someone that lived close enough to drive to Memphis for a Friday or Saturday night, it in my opinion is dying just as fast as Detroit. It's ghetto, dirty, no character, trash all over, and crime ridden. Imagine someone getting shot on 4th St. in Cincy ... not being a surprise. It's a shithole, but everyone should at least visit Beale St. at least once, just don't buy crack from the 12 year olds (they're mothballs).
November 16, 200816 yr It often sounds as if you want Cincy to lose it's hub, while on the discussion regarding Cleveland's airport, all you talk about is how you see it so primed for growth and more international flights, etc. Seems like you're more interested in Cleveland bragging rights than the health of CVG. I 7th this ... MTS, it's no secret that there is something wrong with your "doom and gloom" mentality of CVG, but have high hopes that Nat City will somehow pull out of its PNC takeover? lol arenn & ragerunner also aren't fooling anyone. Indy is not and never will be Cincy, vise versa. There's no comparison. Never will be. History happens and cannot be imitated.
November 16, 200816 yr It often sounds as if you want Cincy to lose it's hub, while on the discussion regarding Cleveland's airport, all you talk about is how you see it so primed for growth and more international flights, etc. Seems like you're more interested in Cleveland bragging rights than the health of CVG. I 7th this ... MTS, it's no secret that there is something wrong with your "doom and gloom" mentality of CVG, but have high hopes that Nat City will somehow pull out of its PNC takeover? lol arenn & ragerunner also isn't fooling anyone. Indy is not and never will be Cincy, vise versa. There's no comparison. Never will be. History happens and cannot be imitated. The facts are as they are and taken for the FAA and what insiders have been saying. It's no secret that the status of CVG, MRM, MSP and SLC airports is up in the air.
November 16, 200816 yr Lets try to stay with standard discussions relating to CVG and Delta/Comair operations for the sake of this thread. The amount of information and data that has been provided has been great, but lets keep the personal stuff in PM. Thanks.
November 21, 200816 yr http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4220931/ DL/DL Connection filed with OAG the termination of 4 CVG routes beginning in January. CVG-AVP/AZO/MHT/PWM will end. They did show CVG-SAT reinstated at the same time. These should appear in GDS by Monday.
November 21, 200816 yr http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4220931/ DL/DL Connection filed with OAG the termination of 4 CVG routes beginning in January. CVG-AVP/AZO/MHT/PWM will end. They did show CVG-SAT reinstated at the same time. These should appear in GDS by Monday. airliners.net is like widipedia. Has a press release been issued by Delta/NW?
November 21, 200816 yr http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4220931/ DL/DL Connection filed with OAG the termination of 4 CVG routes beginning in January. CVG-AVP/AZO/MHT/PWM will end. They did show CVG-SAT reinstated at the same time. These should appear in GDS by Monday. And for people who don't feel like visiting the link but have no idea what AVP, AZO, MHT, or PWM are... AVP: Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, PA AZO: Kalamazoo/Battle Creek, MI MHT: Manchester, NH PWM: Portland, ME We're not all airport code geeks.
November 21, 200816 yr I would have gone 0 for 4 lol ... I was thinking the same thing. When Blue Line posted the airports, the first thought, was WTF ... I didn't even knew we flew to those cities.
November 21, 200816 yr I think I've seen a gate LED show a Wilkes-Barre destination once after coming in to CVG on a flight (this was years ago; I'd never fly into CVG anymore). But others? Nope.
January 19, 200916 yr This will be interesting to keep an eye on!!! It doesn't include CVG........yet! Hartsfield-Jackson, Delta fighting over cost increases Business Courier of Cincinnati - by J. Scott Trubey Courier Contributor Delta Air Lines Inc. is at odds with Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport over operating costs and lease negotiations at the world’s busiest airport. The tiff, if unresolved could prompt Atlanta-based Delta to move some of its capacity elsewhere, an executive wrote recently to airport officials. The airline operates its second-largest hub at the Cincinnati-Northern Kentucky International Airport. Delta is contesting the rising cost of capital improvement projects -- such as the $1.6 billion Maynard Holbrook Jackson International Terminal, which is now projected to cost double original estimates -- and what it says will be a doubling of its unit costs by 2016. Delta, the world’s largest airline, and other carriers at Hartsfield-Jackson operate under a 30-year lease, which expires in 2010. Formal negotiations have not started, but Delta and other carriers have wanted to commence lease talks since October 2007. Full story at http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/01/19/daily14.html
January 19, 200916 yr I think this is more smoke than fire. It comes across like a negotiating tactic on Delta's part to threaten moving capacity elsewhere. They want their operating costs and lease to be lower, but I don't think they'll go as far as moving capacity from their home airport somewhere else.
January 19, 200916 yr if CVG can offer them signifcantly lower costs per enplanement, who knows You're on a roll today! lol
January 20, 200916 yr Unfortunately, CVG is unlikely to be the winner - instead it would be Detroit that would like pick up more of the international flights as Northwest's old international hub.
January 22, 200916 yr CVG woos Delta, AirTran for new flights By James Pilcher • [email protected] • January 21, 2009 HEBRON - Local airport officials Wednesday stepped up a lobbying campaign with hub tenant Delta Air Lines as well as low-cost airline AirTran in an attempt to lure flights here. The move comes after both carriers have raised the possibility of moving some operations out Atlanta due to potential higher costs there. Kenton County Airport Board chairman Lawson Walker II sent a letter to the top executives of both airlines outlining the positive attributes of the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, which was Delta's second-largest hub prior to its merger with Northwest Airlines last fall. "There is a big chance that this is all saber rattling by the airlines in Atlanta, but we're not going to not take the opportunity to remind Delta that we have a lot of room and to remind AirTran that we are still here," Walker said in an interview Wednesday. CVG's flight and passenger traffic are down by about half in the last three years, while the airport's Terminal 1 and Concourse C have all been closed in the last two years. Still, the airport's four runways make it one of the highest-capacity air fields in the Midwest, as it is one of only three U.S. airports that can handle three takeoffs or landings at the same time. It also has a 12,000-foot east-west runway that can handle fully-loaded planes headed for Asia, although no such flights are currently scheduled locally. Full story at http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090121/BIZ01/901220303/1055/NEWS
January 27, 200916 yr Let's hope so, we have heard this before...... Delta plan: tweak local fare structure Business Courier of Cincinnati Delta Air Lines is looking at restructuring its fare structure in Cincinnati, as it struggles with demand in some of its key markets. Cincinnati and Detroit are the carrier’s weakest markets, Delta executives said Tuesday in a conference call following its earnings report. Delta’s shuttle service, including Comair also is suffering. Cincinnati continually ranks as one of the most expensive cities from which travelers can fly, along with Anchorage, Alaska. During a question-and-answer period, CEO Richard Anderson said Delta (NYSE:DAL) will very shortly be rolling out a new fare structure in Cincinnati. He declined to provide specifics for a reporter at Bloomberg News. “But between a combination of both our network strategy and our fare strategy, we expect to see nice improvement in Cincinnati,” he said. Full story at http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/01/26/daily26.html
January 28, 200916 yr http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090128/BIZ01/901280337 Delta reports $1.4B loss Stock falls 20% on gloomy '09 forecast By James Pilcher • [email protected] • January 28, 2009 Say good by to Delta. They will be gone before the year is over.
February 6, 200916 yr Hallelujah! Delta cutting CVG fares to drive traffic Business Courier of Cincinnati - by Lisa Biank Fasig, Courier Staff Reporter Delta Air Lines Inc. is reducing its Cincinnati domestic fares by almost 60 percent to some locations, in a sweeping price restructuring designed to build revenue at the underperforming hub. The Atlanta-based carrier said fares to all of its 87 domestic destinations from Cincinnati will be cut immediately (nine overseas destinations are not included). A one-way ticket to Los Angeles, for example, is now $130, compared with a previous fare of $310. A one-way flight to Boston has been reduced to $152 from $205. The new prices are ongoing and there are no black-out dates. But tickets must be purchased 21 days in advance. Further, a round-trip fare would require either a three-night or Saturday-night stay, whichever comes first. The reductions are designed to keep local travelers from driving to Dayton, Louisville or other airports where flights tend to be cheaper. The Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, one of Delta’s smaller hubs, regularly ranks as the most expensive U.S. airport from which to fly. This is apparently taking its toll in hard economic times as travelers seek lower-cost seats. Delta CEO Richard Anderson in late January told reporters that CVG is one of the carrier’s weakest markets, along with Detroit, and that there would be a fare restructuring. Full story at http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/02/02/daily74.html
February 6, 200916 yr i have been looking and seen weekend CVG ATL flights for $135-150. Good news for UncleRando.
February 13, 200916 yr Delta adds bonus SkyMiles here Travelers must fly to one of 15 cities by May Delta Air Lines Thursday announced a short-term bonus on its SkyMiles frequent flyer program for anyone flying out of Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport. Travelers to a select group of 15 cities by May 12 can receive extra miles for trips, with the increments increasing up to 10,000 miles for the fifth trip - possibly making CVG even more attractive to business travelers. The cities involved are: Atlanta, Baltimore, Charlotte, Dallas/Fort Worth, Denver, Kansas City, Los Angeles, New York/LaGuardia, Newark, N.J., Philadelphia, Phoenix, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington-Reagan National. Delta Friday announced it was significantly cutting its fares out of Cincinnati, long the most expensive airport in the nation. Members can sign up for the bonus miles at www.delta.com/cvgbonus. Travelers can collect up to 25,000 extra miles, the equivalent to a free ticket. Full story at http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090213/BIZ01/902130352/1055/NEWS
February 20, 200916 yr Despite revenue drop, CVG in good financial health http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/02/23/story5.html The Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport generated less revenue in 2008, but it managed to keep expenses below projected levels and significantly pay down its debt. According to unaudited figures released Feb. 17, the airport posted 2008 revenue (not including landing fees) of $69.1 million. That compares with $72.4 million in 2007. Operating expenses rose to $62.5 million from $62 million, but beat projected costs of $67.2 million. The airport also reduced its debt service to $30.8 million from $35.2 million. The figures offer a glimpse into the airport’s health as it balances lost capacity from Delta Air Lines Inc. and other carriers. Domestic capacity at CVG declined by 30 percent in the last two years. But CVG has benefited from relatively low debt and an ability to rein in costs through a hiring freeze, reducing personnel travel and cutting back on maintenance. By paying off a chunk of debt in 2008, it saved $1.8 million in payments on its obligations.
February 28, 200916 yr Guess who's #1? http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/15/airports-travel-regional-lifestyle-travel_0216_airports.html
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