Guess who's #1?

 

http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/15/airports-travel-regional-lifestyle-travel_0216_airports.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is obviously based on old prices.

You mean Forbes didn't do a very thorough analysis? I find that VERY unlikely...

Comair moving crews to Northeast

 

Locally based Comair is moving about a third of its flight crews to the Northeast beginning next month as parent Delta Air Lines shuffles its regional lineup in that busy corridor.  That means that about 300 pilots and 150 flight attendants will start and end their work schedules at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport, even though most live in the Cincinnati area.  It also means that by the end of May, Comair will operate just 22 percent of its flights at the Delta hub at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport.  Delta officials stressed that there will be no impact to the number of flights at the Cincinnati airport.  However, different Delta Connection regional carriers will fill the void left by Comair operations that move north.

 

Comair officials portrayed the staffing shift as evidence of growth for the company, meaning more flying and potentially mitigating the need for further layoffs.  The company furloughed nearly 100 pilots in January due to reduced flying. They joined 200-plus pilots furloughed last year. These new moves don't mean that those workers will be brought back, Comair spokesman Jeff Pugh said.  "Ultimately, this is good news for Comair," he said. "Yes, it is a shift in our flying, but it is more flying, and that is always a good thing for us."

 

Full story at http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090316/BIZ01/903170309/1055/NEWS

Delta drops reservation calls to India

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090417/BIZ01/304170050/1055/NEWS

 

Delta Air Lines Inc. no longer is outsourcing reservation calls to India after years of complaints from customers who preferred to speak to someone in the United States.  Chief Executive Richard Anderson told employees in a recorded message late Thursday night that the world's biggest airline operator is in the process of bringing all customer calls back in-house in the U.S.

 

Customer calls were no longer forwarded to India as of the first quarter of this year, Anderson said. Foreign call centers remain in Jamaica and South Africa, though Anderson indicated that staffing at those locations likely will be reduced in the future as the global financial crisis cuts call volume.

 

Delta sees rise in CVG traffic

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090421/BIZ01/304210004/1055/NEWS

 

Delta Air Lines' new lower air fare structure put in place in February at the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport has caused local traffic to rise by “double digit” percentages as compared with before the changes, officials with the Atlanta-based airline said today during its quarterly earnings conference call. 

 

“We appreciate the support of our good customers in Cincinnati,” Delta chief executive officer Richard Anderson said, while Delta’s executive vice president for network and revenue planning Glenn Hauenstein said the airline was “very, very pleased with the results of the change.”

 

The comments came after Delta reported a $794 million loss for the first quarter, which company officials said would have been break-even despite the recession if not for fuel contracts left over from last summer when oil skyrocketed to nearly $150 a barrel. 

Delta to cut flights from Cincy to London, Frankfurt

Business Courier of Cincinnati

 

Delta Air Lines Inc.’s service from Cincinnati to Frankfurt and London will be cut as part of an overall reduction in its capacity worldwide, a shift that could force it to further cut employee hours, the carrier said Thursday.  The Atlanta-based airline, which operates a hub the Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky International Airport, will reduce its overall system by 10 percent compared with 2008, due to declining passenger revenue and higher fuel prices.

 

International capacity will be cut by another 5 percent, Delta said, citing reduced demand for overseas travel. This follows previous reductions in March, making for a total international capacity cut of 15 percent.  In a memo to employees, CEO Richard Anderson and President Ed Bastian said passenger revenue is down almost 20 percent in the first four months of the year, compared with the same period in 2008.

 

Besides the Cincinnati cuts, Delta will suspend nonstop service from Atlanta to Shanghai and from New York-JFK to Edinburgh, Scotland.  It also will reduce the number of flights from Atlanta and Detroit to Mexico City.  At the same time, Delta is adding flights between other locations, some of which have been announced, including Detroit to Shanghai, New York to Prague and Salt Lake City to Tokyo.

 

Full story at http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/06/08/daily56.html

Now disembarking: Delta convenience

 

When Delta Air Lines Inc. said it would eliminate local direct flights to London and Frankfurt it was, in a way, clipping the wings of all travelers.  The reduction in overseas flights among U.S. carriers, a pull-back that began a year ago, is translating to fewer nonstop flights, longer layover times and in some cases added stops between home and destination. 

 

Capacity on overseas flights will be cut in five of the first nine months of this year, according to the International Air Transport Association.  At the same time airlines are reducing fares to make such trips more tempting.  The average price to fly one mile on U.S. airlines fell by 18 percent in May, compared with the same month a year ago, the Air Transport Association of America reports. 

 

The result doesn’t merely translate to less availability of direct flights.  For some businesses it will mean a reduction in overseas travel, further feeding the cycle of declining fares and, in some cases, cutting the number of business travelers to the city.

 

Full story at

http://cincinnati.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/stories/2009/07/06/story3.html

I bet Delta want more F500 companies from Cincinnati to locate to Atlanta.

Delta may shut Cincinnati crew base, shift flying

By Associated Press business staff

February 03, 2010, 8:29PM

 

 

ATLANTA  -- Delta Air Lines is expected to move more aircraft to the Pacific Northwest to handle service to Asia as it continues to shuffle the departure points for its international flying to adjust its network to demand

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/delta_may_shut_cincinnati_crew.html

I saw it coming.  How many Delta/CVG threads are there?

 

Delta may shut Cincinnati crew base, shift flying

By Associated Press business staff

February 03, 2010, 8:29PM

 

 

ATLANTA  -- Delta Air Lines is expected to move more aircraft to the Pacific Northwest to handle service to Asia as it continues to shuffle the departure points for its international flying to adjust its network to demand

 

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/02/delta_may_shut_cincinnati_crew.html

 

Cincinnati (CVG) loses service to ALB/BUF/CRW/DSM/LIT starting in September.  Also loses frequency to BWI, OMA, and SLC.

 

This could change slightly, but any changes would be minimal.

Cincinnati (CVG) loses service to ALB/BUF/CRW/DSM/LIT starting in September. Also loses frequency to BWI, OMA, and SLC.

 

This could change slightly, but any changes would be minimal.

 

I could be wrong, but I believe some of those were seasonal anyways, so it might not be as bad as it sounds. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

 

VERY surprised to hear about SLC though...that's basically a west coast connection point for DL. ATL-SLC flights are very, very full typically.

Cincinnati (CVG) loses service to ALB/BUF/CRW/DSM/LIT starting in September. Also loses frequency to BWI, OMA, and SLC.

 

This could change slightly, but any changes would be minimal.

 

I could be wrong, but I believe some of those were seasonal anyways, so it might not be as bad as it sounds. Can anyone confirm/deny this?

 

VERY surprised to hear about SLC though...that's basically a west coast connection point for DL. ATL-SLC flights are very, very full typically.

 

my thoughts exactly about SLC

^Mine too.  I don't understand anything that Delta has done with regard to CVG lately.  There used to be 2 daily non-stops to PDX that I took frequently, and there was never an empty seat.  Now?  Gone, along with so many other flights.  I hope another airline moves in eventually, because I'm tired of the death-spiral that is Delta's relationship with Cincinnati.

^Mine too. I don't understand anything that Delta has done with regard to CVG lately. There used to be 2 daily non-stops to PDX that I took frequently, and there was never an empty seat. Now? Gone, along with so many other flights. I hope another airline moves in eventually, because I'm tired of the death-spiral that is Delta's relationship with Cincinnati.

 

It's important to remember that a full flights does not mean it's profitable. It's possible that the fare environment was not conducive to DL keeping that route at CVG, or any other number of factors like decreased demand, changes in landing slots at PDX, or better efficiency by shifting that route to another hub.

 

I'm also disappointed by the changes at CVG in late, but there are so many factors that go into this discussion. CVG's loads are generally very good, but that does not mean that these seemingly full flights are going to stick around just because they are full.

True, but CVG was the most expensive airport in the country up until last year.  I find it hard to believe that full flights at the most expensive fares were unprofitable.  I understand that the climate has changed and that Delta is adjusting to that and the merger with NW, but that doesn't make it any easier for their customers in Cincinnati.  We went from incredibly expensive fares to having our service slashed.  If you're a frequent business traveler, it's a complete pain in the rear.

I saw it coming.  How many Delta/CVG threads are there?

 

By the way, I thought MyTwoSense was crazy 2 years ago, but I was completely wrong.  He's basically been right about the Delta/CVG relationship all along.

I saw it coming.  How many Delta/CVG threads are there?

 

By the way, I thought MyTwoSense was crazy 2 years ago, but I was completely wrong.  He's basically been right about the Delta/CVG relationship all along.

 

True, but CVG was the most expensive airport in the country up until last year. I find it hard to believe that full flights at the most expensive fares were unprofitable. I understand that the climate has changed and that Delta is adjusting to that and the merger with NW, but that doesn't make it any easier for their customers in Cincinnati. We went from incredibly expensive fares to having our service slashed. If you're a frequent business traveler, it's a complete pain in the rear.

 

DTW and MSP are far better hubs from DL's perspective for many reasons (that's a whole different discussion), but at the end of the day, DL is not trying nor are they obligated to make anything easier for people in Cincinnati. Lots of people have this misconception that airlines are a service that should make getting from point A to point B as easy and cheap as possible, like a city bus or subway or taxicab. Airlines exist to make money and to take advantage of routes that allow for high yields. If a market is not performing well, reducing capacity and ops there is the name of the game. DL is not obligated to provide the people of Cincinnati with hundreds of non-stops, flights to Europe, etc etc and many people believe they are. DL's pricing definitely turned lots of people off, but the location of CVG does not help also. When many pax are willing to drive to Columbus, or Indy, or Dayton, or Louisville to hop on a different airline to save $30 DL has good reason to focus their efforts elsewhere.

 

Seriously though, with those PDX flights...they went away for a reason. What exactly that is, I don't know, but DL is not just going to drop a profitable route because they want to screw over the people of Cincinnati like you're making it out to be. Paris is still here because it's profitable...AMS and FRA not so much becuase things were just not working out in the Cincinnati market for those routes.

I'll make a prediction if peak oil hits, airlines will actual become be a completely regulated industry again and will be obligated to provide service by the government.

DTW and MSP are far better hubs from DL's perspective for many reasons (that's a whole different discussion), but at the end of the day, DL is not trying nor are they obligated to make anything easier for people in Cincinnati.

 

I never said that they were obligated to do so.  All I said was that I'm tired of the current (and even the former) situation, and I hope that another airline increases its presence at CVG in the future.  The demand is certainly there, so what's wrong with that?

 

 

Lots of people have this misconception that airlines are a service that should make getting from point A to point B as easy and cheap as possible, like a city bus or subway or taxicab. Airlines exist to make money and to take advantage of routes that allow for high yields. If a market is not performing well, reducing capacity and ops there is the name of the game. DL is not obligated to provide the people of Cincinnati with hundreds of non-stops, flights to Europe, etc etc and many people believe they are.

 

No, they're not.  But as someone who frequently travels, I'm allowed to hope for better options at my home airport.

 

DL's pricing definitely turned lots of people off, but the location of CVG does not help also. When many pax are willing to drive to Columbus, or Indy, or Dayton, or Louisville to hop on a different airline to save $30 DL has good reason to focus their efforts elsewhere.

 

$30???  Did you ever fly out of CVG?  Ticket prices were typically on the order of twice as expensive as nearby airports.  No one in their right mind would spend $30 in gas to get to one of those airports to save $30 on a ticket.  But if the ticket is $300 instead of $600... yeah, people are going to make that drive.

 

Seriously though, with those PDX flights...they went away for a reason. What exactly that is, I don't know, but DL is not just going to drop a profitable route because they want to screw over the people of Cincinnati like you're making it out to be.

 

The PDX routes went away because Delta has made massive cuts at CVG, including moving Comair to JFK (and from there to Detroit, I hear).  Those PDX routes were just part of that.  Delta/Comair laid off a ton of pilots (including some friends of mine), so some routes had to go.  That, plus others were just redundant after the merger.  Delta said that CVG will maintain its hub status, but that's clearly not part of their plan.  That's fine, but I hope another airline moves in to pick up the slack.

DTW and MSP are far better hubs from DL's perspective for many reasons (that's a whole different discussion), but at the end of the day, DL is not trying nor are they obligated to make anything easier for people in Cincinnati.

 

I never said that they were obligated to do so.  All I said was that I'm tired of the current (and even the former) situation, and I hope that another airline increases its presence at CVG in the future.  The demand is certainly there, so what's wrong with that?

 

If that was the case, the routes would still be on the schedule.

 

 

With so many airports located so closely together, there's too much competition for not enough people.

 

(I think it was) Randy had an interesting hypothetical situation about having the airport between Dayton and Cincy on I-75. If that were the case, it might have a chance at dominance. Let's raze West Chester! :whip:

 

Make Union Centre Blvd. a runway!

 

Build it with a 3C station and you'd really be cooking.

DTW and MSP are far better hubs from DL's perspective for many reasons (that's a whole different discussion), but at the end of the day, DL is not trying nor are they obligated to make anything easier for people in Cincinnati.

 

I never said that they were obligated to do so.  All I said was that I'm tired of the current (and even the former) situation, and I hope that another airline increases its presence at CVG in the future.  The demand is certainly there, so what's wrong with that?

 

If that was the case, the routes would still be on the schedule.

 

That's a good point.  I guess I was referring to how most flights I took out of CVG seemed to be consistently packed, despite having the highest fares in the nation.  If there was no demand, those flights should have been empty.  It's possible that most of those people were just connecting through Cincinnati, but I have no data to back that up.  I've always thought that CVG has been redundant for Delta since the merger.  It's just too close to Detroit. 

DTW and MSP are far better hubs from DL's perspective for many reasons (that's a whole different discussion), but at the end of the day, DL is not trying nor are they obligated to make anything easier for people in Cincinnati.

 

I never said that they were obligated to do so.  All I said was that I'm tired of the current (and even the former) situation, and I hope that another airline increases its presence at CVG in the future.  The demand is certainly there, so what's wrong with that?

 

If that was the case, the routes would still be on the schedule.

 

That's a good point.  I guess I was referring to how most flights I took out of CVG seemed to be consistently packed, despite having the highest fares in the nation.  If there was no demand, those flights should have been empty.  It's possible that most of those people were just connecting through Cincinnati, but I have no data to back that up.  I've always thought that CVG has been redundant for Delta since the merger.  It's just too close to Detroit. 

 

JJ just becaus a flight "looks" full does not mean each seat sold on that flight is profitable.  First Class fares are the bread and butter of flight, and in this day in age, the majority of people in FC, are upgrades.  Those flying on coach pay a myrad of fares.  I could be on a Y $600 fare and you could be on a consolidator $125 fare on a flight between CVG and NoLa.  Revenue Management is the only way to look at what routes are profitable.  Airlines are very good at knowing what is profitable and what is not.  That is why you see some flight go from a 737 to a regional jet.  The flight is "needed" yet the amount of seats on that route are not.

DTW and MSP are far better hubs from DL's perspective for many reasons (that's a whole different discussion), but at the end of the day, DL is not trying nor are they obligated to make anything easier for people in Cincinnati.

 

I never said that they were obligated to do so.  All I said was that I'm tired of the current (and even the former) situation, and I hope that another airline increases its presence at CVG in the future.  The demand is certainly there, so what's wrong with that?

 

If that was the case, the routes would still be on the schedule.

 

That's a good point.  I guess I was referring to how most flights I took out of CVG seemed to be consistently packed, despite having the highest fares in the nation.  If there was no demand, those flights should have been empty.  It's possible that most of those people were just connecting through Cincinnati, but I have no data to back that up.  I've always thought that CVG has been redundant for Delta since the merger.  It's just too close to Detroit. 

 

Another bit on "full" flights, especially on DL: many people are non-revenue passengers, ESPECIALLY in Cincinnati. Airline employees, family and friends are utilizing connections through CVG now more than ever before because of how full (by rev PAX) flights are out of ATL, MSP, DTW, etc. I did a ATL-CVG flight last week coming back from a business event and the MD-88 was occupied by around 50 non-rev passengers coming to Cincinnati to connect to their destination elsewhere because CVG is considered generally less congested than other DL hubs right now.

 

Going back to my $30 comment...thats the case now, 3 years ago however it's true you would have paid 2x vs. DAY, IND, LEX, etc. I know of many people that will still drive to hop on a Southwest flight a small savings, or won't even look at CVG because they are unaware of the fare decreases that have happened. Fares out of CVG now are pretty average but it's still a tough, tough market with so many other airports taking CVG pax. Why do you think IND advertises so heavily in the Enquirer?

 

I'm not sure what you were getting at, but PDX flights have little to do with Comair except for the fact that many people were probably connecting onto the PDX route via Comair flights into CVG. When that operation wound down, it made less sense to keep a flight here that less pax had access to. The market for that flight was probably never natively Cincinnati, but rather lots of connections. West coast flights are strictly mainline flights flown on the non-regional Boeing/Airbus fleet operated by Delta (not Comair, Mesaba, Skywest, etc.)

 

Another bit on "full" flights, especially on DL: many people are non-revenue passengers, ESPECIALLY in Cincinnati. Airline employees, family and friends are utilizing connections through CVG now more than ever before because of how full (by rev PAX) flights are out of ATL, MSP, DTW, etc. I did a ATL-CVG flight last week coming back from a business event and the MD-88 was occupied by around 50 non-rev passengers coming to Cincinnati to connect to their destination elsewhere because CVG is considered generally less congested than other DL hubs right now.

 

Going back to my $30 comment...thats the case now, 3 years ago however it's true you would have paid 2x vs. DAY, IND, LEX, etc. I know of many people that will still drive to hop on a Southwest flight a small savings, or won't even look at CVG because they are unaware of the fare decreases that have happened. Fares out of CVG now are pretty average but it's still a tough, tough market with so many other airports taking CVG pax. Why do you think IND advertises so heavily in the Enquirer?

 

I'm not sure what you were getting at, but PDX flights have little to do with Comair except for the fact that many people were probably connecting onto the PDX route via Comair flights into CVG. When that operation wound down, it made less sense to keep a flight here that less pax had access to. The market for that flight was probably never natively Cincinnati, but rather lots of connections. West coast flights are strictly mainline flights flown on the non-regional Boeing/Airbus fleet operated by Delta (not Comair, Mesaba, Skywest, etc.)

100% agree

 

Another bit on "full" flights, especially on DL: many people are non-revenue passengers, ESPECIALLY in Cincinnati. Airline employees, family and friends are utilizing connections through CVG now more than ever before because of how full (by rev PAX) flights are out of ATL, MSP, DTW, etc. I did a ATL-CVG flight last week coming back from a business event and the MD-88 was occupied by around 50 non-rev passengers coming to Cincinnati to connect to their destination elsewhere because CVG is considered generally less congested than other DL hubs right now.

 

Going back to my $30 comment...thats the case now, 3 years ago however it's true you would have paid 2x vs. DAY, IND, LEX, etc. I know of many people that will still drive to hop on a Southwest flight a small savings, or won't even look at CVG because they are unaware of the fare decreases that have happened. Fares out of CVG now are pretty average but it's still a tough, tough market with so many other airports taking CVG pax. Why do you think IND advertises so heavily in the Enquirer?

 

I'm not sure what you were getting at, but PDX flights have little to do with Comair except for the fact that many people were probably connecting onto the PDX route via Comair flights into CVG. When that operation wound down, it made less sense to keep a flight here that less pax had access to. The market for that flight was probably never natively Cincinnati, but rather lots of connections. West coast flights are strictly mainline flights flown on the non-regional Boeing/Airbus fleet operated by Delta (not Comair, Mesaba, Skywest, etc.)

100% agree

 

As I've written numnerous times in this thread, the CVG hub was primarily overflow - as are all of DALs hubs.  However, after the merger, the linear progression of DTW - CVG - ATL became redundant.  The distance between them is relatively short and one of them had to go.  That of course is CVG.  Now, DAL still keeps a hub at CVG, albeit smaller, but reliant on O&D.  This is what CAL has done in CLE since the beginning.  The PDX flight was overflow.  When the connecting pax stopped using CVG, so went that flight. 

I'm not sure what you were getting at, but PDX flights have little to do with Comair except for the fact that many people were probably connecting onto the PDX route via Comair flights into CVG.

 

I was never complaining about the PDX routes solely.  They were just an example of a flight that I could formerly take advantage of.  I travel all over the country, not just to Portland.  Now it seems as if I can't get a direct flight to anywhere unless that place is Salt Lake City or Atlanta.  It's a lot of extra time on the road, particularly when those connections turn into an overnight or when the airline pulls something cute like flying you into JFK and out of LaGuardia 90 minutes later and calling that a connection.  I mentioned Comair only because Delta's service cuts included relocating Comair from CVG to JFK.  It has nothing at all to do with PDX (other than they both represent service cuts at CVG).

 

You got into specifics with "those PDX flights...they went away for a reason. What exactly that is, I don't know, but DL is not just going to drop a profitable route because they want to screw over the people of Cincinnati like you're making it out to be".  Yes, those flights are gone, but my point was that Delta's continual cuts at CVG makes it difficult on business travelers here.  I don't blame Delta, but that doesn't mean that I have to love the situation.  I'm not quite sure how this debate even got started.  What I basically said was that I'm tired of Delta slowly cutting service at CVG, and that I hope someone else moves in.  Maybe that's realistic, maybe it's not.  It's just what I'd like to see happen.

JJ just becaus a flight "looks" full does not mean each seat sold on that flight is profitable. First Class fares are the bread and butter of flight, and in this day in age, the majority of people in FC, are upgrades. Those flying on coach pay a myrad of fares. I could be on a Y $600 fare and you could be on a consolidator $125 fare on a flight between CVG and NoLa.   Revenue Management is the only way to look at what routes are profitable. Airlines are very good at knowing what is profitable and what is not. That is why you see some flight go from a 737 to a regional jet. The flight is "needed" yet the amount of seats on that route are not.

 

Very true.  A lot of this goes into how airlines determine how much a seat should cost.  I really don't want to get into that, because I'm sure that it could be a thread all it's own.  But suffice to say, it isn't a simple or transparent process. 

However, after the merger, the linear progression of DTW - CVG - ATL became redundant.  The distance between them is relatively short and one of them had to go.  That of course is CVG.

 

Exactly.

Im telling you they want businesses to leave the region to Atlanta.

Im telling you they want businesses to leave the region to Atlanta.

 

Child boo!  Where do you get your information?

My information? The writing is on the wall. You can't honestly believe this is pro-business.

My information? The writing is on the wall. You can't honestly believe this is pro-business.

 

You're looking at the conspiracy wall.  Turn around, reality is behind you.

Im telling you they want businesses to leave the region to Atlanta.

 

Child boo! Where do you get your information?

 

DAL is not trying to screw CVG and the region.  Its just that CVG now plays a different role in the DAL system.  ATL is relatively close to CVG.  ATL has the runway capacity (5 count em 5 runways) and the gate space to make a great economy of scale.  The same holds true for DTW.  Again,  Runways and the gate space to make a great economy of scale.  Smack in the middle is CVG.  It is in itself a great facility too but with the two mega hubs flanking it, CVG is redundant as a large overflow hub.  Its important to realize that CVG is STILL a hub.  Its just now tied to O&D and yield.  Its on that basis that it will either survive or disappear.

Its important to realize that CVG is STILL a hub.

 

What defines a hub anyway?  Raw traffic?  Pilots based out of the airport?

It would seem that over time a smaller hub at CVG would make it easier to get other carriers. It remains centrally located and could start throwing money around - I'd think Dayton's Airtran traffic would be a prime target.

It would seem that over time a smaller hub at CVG would make it easier to get other carriers. It remains centrally located and could start throwing money around - I'd think Dayton's Airtran traffic would be a prime target.

 

Question?  If Delta with a hub cannot be profitable, what makes you think another airline (sans Southwest) can fly routes that are not only profitable but convenient for business and leisure travelers?

The routes currently flown would be more profitable if Delta would cut fairs more than they have to increase O & D passengers.  CVG's low O & D passenger numbers are due to the insane costs of flying here due to Delta's monopoly.  Everyone I know who flies more than a few times a year, looks at surrounding airports for cheaper fares before looking to fly locally.  Delta needs to quit blaming most of their cuts on the low number of local passengers, its their fault.

^AS Coldayman would say, BINGO.

The routes currently flown would be more profitable if Delta would cut fairs more than they have to increase O & D passengers.  CVG's low O & D passenger numbers are due to the insane costs of flying here due to Delta's monopoly.  Everyone I know who flies more than a few times a year, looks at surrounding airports for cheaper fares before looking to fly locally.  Delta needs to quit blaming most of their cuts on the low number of local passengers, its their fault.

 

considering you work for a carrier, that is defeating the purpose, right?  Leisure passengers are not going to change O&D, those travelers you speak about are all about a buck.  Even if Delta was cheaper, would they be loyal?

 

It's business contracts and the business segmet of the O & D market that needs to be examined. as well as if Delta operations and seat mile is cheaper out of CVG vs. ATL/DTW?

I've lived in Cincy for years, flown quite a bit and haven't flown out of CVG in five years - why? Too expensive on Delta. I accepted a connection in Atlanta on Airtran many times.

The routes currently flown would be more profitable if Delta would cut fairs more than they have to increase O & D passengers. CVG's low O & D passenger numbers are due to the insane costs of flying here due to Delta's monopoly. Everyone I know who flies more than a few times a year, looks at surrounding airports for cheaper fares before looking to fly locally. Delta needs to quit blaming most of their cuts on the low number of local passengers, its their fault.

 

CVG O&D would still be somewhat low even if the pax who drive to DAY or even CMH started using CVG again.

 

The old addage "you get what you pay for" holds true here.  CVG's fares are high BECAUSE of lower O&D than say CLE.  In order to keep the luxury of having premier destinations from CVG, the area has to accept high costs.  The airline MUST make its money.  Without the luxury of more discretionary fliers (such as CLE) there is no room to cut fares.  Even in CLE, I would say that the retention of the CAL hub will be dependant on how many premium seats CAL sells.

 

And beleive that if SWA of AirTran thought they could make a profit at CVG, they wouls already be there.

^ Your post sounds like an insult. Luxury? DO you realize how powerful word of mouth is?

^ yYou post sounds like an insult. Luxury? DO you realize how powerful word of mouth is?

 

Im not sure why you think my post is insulting.  Having many destinations from hubs such as CVG, CLE, MEM, DEN, MSP, etc, are to an extent luxuries.  The O&D for CVG is apox 3.5 -4.0 million pax/year.  That's not much.  So, in order to make a decent yield, the avg. fare is high.  Even if you took the pax that drive to DAY or even CMH for a lower you wouldn't raise CVG's O&D by that significant of an amount.  So what I said above is you get what you pay for.  If CVG demand and gets lower fares, the resulting drop-off in destinations will be apparent.  Same for any hub or even city pair.  For a market like CLE, the O&D is aprox 7.0 million.  There's more wiggle room to play with yields.  For similar sized metro's, there's more air traffic demand in CLE than CVG.  Plus, CAK is so close to to CLE as to almost be a co-terminal (35 miles).  That's another 1 million pax (most of whom are from the eastern burbs of CLE anyway).

I think argument that CVG defenders are trying to make is that the history of the airport over the last fifteen years means that you can't actually use recent O/D data to ascertain the size the market CVG is capable of serving.

This report has a lot of good information: http://www.aviationplanning.com/Images/4Q2009Report.pdf

 

It is hard to say was CVG's normal numbers would be with the same fares as Cleveland, or Columbus for that matter.  We know that CVG had a Q4 increase in O&D of 32% to 1.085 M with a 24% decrease in fares.  According to this Cleveland had a Q4 number of 1.653 M and Columbus was at 1.487 M.  Dayton dropped a large amount from  695,000 (Q4 2008) to 570,000 (Q4 2009).  Presumably, most of that went to CVG, which had a raw increase of 265,000. 

 

Using anecdotal evidence, I know most of the travelers at my company are open to CVG or DAY or CMH.  While the lower fares have helped the inconvenience has definitely increased so many people choose other airports, which still generally have lower fares.  So what could CVG's numbers have been in Q4 2009, for example - it feels like it probably would have been in the 1.25 - 1.3 M range with better fares and no other option but that is obviously a guess.  I think we will see this number become somewhat clearer in 2010.

 

One thing I do know, as suspected last year, Delta has zero loyalty to a community that supported a longtime, large, successful hub (I have been on many $1000 flights myself).  I realize they are in this to make money, but I would hope the airport board is doing everything they can to bring in competition.

This report has a lot of good information: http://www.aviationplanning.com/Images/4Q2009Report.pdf

 

It is hard to say was CVG's normal numbers would be with the same fares as Cleveland, or Columbus for that matter.  We know that CVG had a Q4 increase in O&D of 32% to 1.085 M with a 24% decrease in fares.  According to this Cleveland had a Q4 number of 1.653 M and Columbus was at 1.487 M.  Dayton dropped a large amount from  695,000 (Q4 2008) to 570,000 (Q4 2009).  Presumably, most of that went to CVG, which had a raw increase of 265,000. 

 

Using anecdotal evidence, I know most of the travelers at my company are open to CVG or DAY or CMH.  While the lower fares have helped the inconvenience has definitely increased so many people choose other airports, which still generally have lower fares.  So what could CVG's numbers have been in Q4 2009, for example - it feels like it probably would have been in the 1.25 - 1.3 M range with better fares and no other option but that is obviously a guess.  I think we will see this number become somewhat clearer in 2010.

 

One thing I do know, as suspected last year, Delta has zero loyalty to a community that supported a longtime, large, successful hub (I have been on many $1000 flights myself).  I realize they are in this to make money, but I would hope the airport board is doing everything they can to bring in competition.

 

Yes, but does the competition want to go to CVG??  As you say, you know of people who will drive to DAY or even as far CMH.  The "competition" is already at those stations.  Also, LCC's are usually catering to the discretionary, price elastic traveler.  That's why they are already driving to DAY and CHM (those airports are already low-yield - see the report that you linked).  To be honest, I don't DAL ever wanted those types of pax.  They never priced a fare that would indicate they wanted to compete in that segment.  Also, as i've written in other threads, CVG was an overflow hub for DAL.  I think they priced the O&D high so that they had enough connection seats open.  Opening a station incures lots of fixed-costs - some of them very high.  Further, DAL would simply use its pricing power at CVG to match the fares and increase frequency on competitive routes. 

^ So do you just predict more decline, or what?

 

Delta claimed they would support CVG in their quest to bring in other carriers, basically saying they would not play the pricing game you mention (which they've done a lot in the past). Whether they would actually go through with it is an open question, but that's something they've promised recently.

 

You seem to be bullish on CLE, and I don't really see why CLE should perform better than CVG, other than less competition from nearby airports. I guess the O&D numbers are higher there, but I have a hard time seeing why that is necessarily the case.